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Cleveland and Mizuno


Ice
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So, adjustable drivers are ALL the craze these days. What's holding these guys up? They both strike me as too "traditional" to make the move to adjustability. Cleveland made a bold move with the different weighted drivers, they can do it again with adjustability. Mizuno is the king of traditional... RPJ and Gaijin, do you see it happening?

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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I dont think Mizuno has any plans to enter the adjustable market either. They used to have the Fasttrack drivers that had adjustable weights (not quite the same but had a very similar effect) and they dont offer those anymore.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 blue ion 54*

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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I hit a ton of drivers a week or two just for fun, and I've gotta say... I'll take a Cleveland Classic 310 over basically anything. I couldn't believe how easy it was to work and how good it felt, especially in conjunction with the yardage I gained over the other drivers. I would love to put one in the bag. Maybe next year. I think I'll play out the 909D2 that I just picked up.

 

I kind of really like the non adjustable style. I loved my R9 and all the fun things I could do with it, but something about the purity of the concept of not being able to modify the club on a whim is hugely appealing to me. I love the idea of playing the game without the technology.

 

Paul

Driver: TaylorMade R9 9.5* with a Diamana Kai'li 70 S shaft

Fairway: TaylorMade R9 TP 13* with Graphite Design Tour AD YSQ-st X flex

 

UtilityWilson Staff FYbrid 19.5* Aldila RIP Sigma Stiff

 

Irons: Wilson Staff FG Tour V2 KBS Tour X flex 4-pw (soft-stepped)

Wedges: Wilson Staff FG Tour TC 50* (standard grind, bent to 51*) TT DG Spinner, 56* and 60* (tour grinds, bent to 55* and 59*) Dynamic Gold Wedge flex

Putter: Yes! Abbie Tour Forged Pro Series 33" 

Ball: Wilson Staff FG Tour, Maxfli U4

 

Bag: Wilson Staff NeXus 100th Anniversary carry bag

 

Backup Irons: Wilson Staff FG-17 Tour Blades with TT Dynamic Stiff 3-PW

 

Backup Utility: Mizuno MP-H4 2 iron TT Dynamic Gold R300

 

Backup Putter: Pro Gear CG 100 33" (Pro Gear is what turned into Yes!)

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The fact that I do not believe that any of the PGA staffers play their drivers(or metal woods) would make it a tough sell. Look at Ping. I mean really(And I frickin love the i20!), is the Anser more than a "me too" driver. And they waited 2 1/2 years to release it?

Yet Stacy Lewis and Jiyai Shin are dominating the LPGA Tour with Mizuno woods. Interesting.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 blue ion 54*

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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The classic black looks like a shaft-only adjustable (like the F12LS, Anser, AMP, etc...). I like those the best. Weights and ASP is meaningless.

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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Weights and ASP is meaningless.

How so? I can say from personal experience with the Mizuno Fasttrack drivers that moving the weights can change how much the face closes or doesnt close coming through the ball and effect spin.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 blue ion 54*

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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How so? I can say from personal experience with the Mizuno Fasttrack drivers that moving the weights can change how much the face closes or doesnt close coming through the ball and effect spin.

 

ASP... meaningless. Does nothing to affect the physics of the club. Pick it up and it's effects are gone. Gimmick.

 

Weights... you need at least 16-18 grams in one spot and nothing in the others for it to have a minimal effect... 10 yards side to side maybe. Not really worth it.

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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So, adjustable drivers are ALL the craze these days. What's holding these guys up? They both strike me as too "traditional" to make the move to adjustability. Cleveland made a bold move with the different weighted drivers, they can do it again with adjustability. Mizuno is the king of traditional... RPJ and Gaijin, do you see it happening?

 

It's a "hot" feature, like white paint on a driver or putter, but not entirely necessary. Consider that between 70 and 80% of all golfers fight a slice... why would they need a face that opens? Closes more than normal, maybe (it's the most viable way to help a slice for drivers), but it takes about a 1.5* change to notice any appreciable difference.

 

This is another one of those "Keep Up With The Joneses" bull$hit deals. Ping finally caved... I don't believe Cleveland or Mizuno would or should. But that's how they do things in golf; someone comes up with something, it catches on, everyone has to copy it or else fear getting left behind. It isn't just white paint, white grips or adjustable features- it's putting grips and stances, "negative ion" chotzkies, swing theories...

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ASP... meaningless. Does nothing to affect the physics of the club. Pick it up and it's effects are gone. Gimmick.

 

Weights... you need at least 16-18 grams in one spot and nothing in the others for it to have a minimal effect... 10 yards side to side maybe. Not really worth it.

 

ASP is helpful if the grass on the tee box is short mainly so your club is always at the same address position. I'm sure on most clubs people who don't ground their driver deviate more than a few degrees of loft without knowing it. However, ASP when the tee box grass is a little high becomes useless again.

 

Weights I think have some affect. I say I think because I tried moving mine around and immediately hated it, so they went back to stock position for me. As you say though, it takes a lot of weight to actually help the club produce a draw/fade swing and the stock weights probably don't cut it.

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It's a "hot" feature, like white paint on a driver or putter, but not entirely necessary. Consider that between 70 and 80% of all golfers fight a slice... why would they need a face that opens? Closes more than normal, maybe (it's the most viable way to help a slice for drivers), but it takes about a 1.5* change to notice any appreciable difference.

 

This is another one of those "Keep Up With The Joneses" bull$hit deals. Ping finally caved... I don't believe Cleveland or Mizuno would or should. But that's how they do things in golf; someone comes up with something, it catches on, everyone has to copy it or else fear getting left behind. It isn't just white paint, white grips or adjustable features- it's putting grips and stances, "negative ion" chotzkies, swing theories...

 

An open face isn't always the culprit behind a slice and a closed face won't always fix it... might even make it worse. Face angle 1.5* at least is needed... loft even a half a degree makes a difference. PING got it right with the Anser. I like it a lot. GG makes a great point with Mizzy not being in the driver market much so it wouldn't be smart to invest heavily in adjustability.

 

The Anser style putter is far and away the most popular style of putter now (plumbers neck blade). Everyone copied it. Personally I MUCH prefer flow-necks.

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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Weights and ASP is meaningless.

 

Wow, what a fascinating statement. I agree on the ASP but the weights are a big reason why a lot of people fit into the R9/R11 drivers over others. Stop thinking about weights to move the COG and start thinking about them in terms of swing weight when you modify the club length and what that does to shaft flex.

 

Weight is EXTREMELY important for proper club building and the TM system means you don't have to worry about a monkey putting hot melt in the wrong location.

 

PING got it right with the Anser.

 

Again, we couldn't be more different. IMO the whole Anser line is a giant miss. Half a degree of loft change might help a Pro or a very consistent, low handicapper but not anyone else and the half a degree of face angle change is useless to anyone that really needs a closed or open face. Let's not get started on the rest of the line either since IMO the driver is the best of the bunch.

 

Total whiff on the entire line.

I laught at your claims to fight a zombie apocalypse when most of you can't stand up to a Spider

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Wow, what a fascinating statement. I agree on the ASP but the weights are a big reason why a lot of people fit into the R9/R11 drivers over others. Stop thinking about weights to move the COG and start thinking about them in terms of swing weight when you modify the club length and what that does to shaft flex.

 

Weight is EXTREMELY important for proper club building and the TM system means you don't have to worry about a monkey putting hot melt in the wrong location.

 

It may work differently for others... I've just never seen any effect by weights of you don't have at least a 15 gram difference between the heel and toe.

 

 

 

Again, we couldn't be more different. IMO the whole Anser line is a giant miss. Half a degree of loft change might help a Pro or a very consistent, low handicapper but not anyone else and the half a degree of face angle change is useless to anyone that really needs a closed or open face. Let's not get started on the rest of the line either since IMO the driver is the best of the bunch.

 

Total whiff on the entire line.

 

The half a degree of loft on the metals is remedied by the driver being available in loft increments of 1*. The face angle is what it is... IMO if you still slice epically with a half a degree closed you

need lessons not a new driver.

 

The irons are bull. I like the metals a lot though.

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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It may work differently for others... I've just never seen any effect by weights of you don't have at least a 15 gram difference between the heel and toe.

 

The half a degree of loft on the metals is remedied by the driver being available in loft increments of 1*. The face angle is what it is... IMO if you still slice epically with a half a degree closed you

need lessons not a new driver.

 

The irons are bull. I like the metals a lot though.

 

 

Think about the weights like this instead. Say you give your R11 TP to a friend because you're a nice guy. It clocks in at D3 at 45.5". However your friend can't hit anything longer then 44" for whatever reason so he cuts it down. Now, each 1/2" he cut off the butt just dropped the sweight weight 3 points. So with 1.5" less length, he just lost 9 sweing weight points. Because of this

A: He can't feel the head anymore so makes a terrible transition

B: The shaft just got stiffer from the cutting and the weight of the head isn't enough to bring it back in line. Now even when your friend makes a good swing, the ball goes short and left because he can't quite load the shaft.

 

Good fishcakes he cries, what am I to do? You being the nice guy that you are reminds him that he needs to at 18 grams of weight back to the head (2G=1SW) to sort things out. So he pops online and get's himself one of the Taylormade 16G weights and replaces the 1 with it and replaces the 10G weight with a 12G or a 14G weight and he's back to D2.5 (12G) or D3.5 (14G) and suddenly he's hitting the ball so much better.

 

Try doing that with such precision with hotmelt both in adding enough weight and adding it in not a dumb place. It's not as easy as it looks which is why guys like Wade on the TM van are so magical. He's like a dog damn unicorn riding a leprochaun of a club builder.

 

Still disagree with the Anser driver. 0.5 loft is a pointless adjustment and for anyone that it would actually matter for is getting fit and thus would be better servered by Ping's Digital Loft/lie service (one of the best services in golf IMO). All the adjustability does is let someone impulse by something that they can screw around with and think they're making meaningful changes.

 

A yes, slice the crap out of a driver, get a lesson. How about the guy who gentle fades the ball and doesn't want to? He doesn't need a lesson and can often be sorted out by a quick 1.5 face angle change.

I laught at your claims to fight a zombie apocalypse when most of you can't stand up to a Spider

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I understand the swingweight thing... if you cut length off a shaft I know it has to be made up. I'm referring to using the weights to correct a slice or hook. It's not very effective at that.

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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Two studies out of the Yale University Dept. of Engineering showed, #1, ASP is "for visual purposes only" and provides "no biomachanical manipulation" of the clubface when set on the ground. This study was used in a recent lawsuit filed against TMaG by a group of scientists who, for whatever reason(probably cuz they didn't think of it first), claimed that it could be visual &/or it could be mental, but it ain't biomachanical.

 

The second study showed that for a weight to effect ball flight, for an 85mph swing, a 35gr weight was needed. It went up about 5gr per 5mph(40gr-90mph, 45gr-95mph, etc). If ya think about it, the old R9 series had a 16gr/2gr weight(s). 16 grams is nothing. Think of even an 85mph swing and you're gonna tell me that a 16gr weight is gonna influence a moving clubhead. Please. And they have a 10gr weight? Yea right..lol.

 

I'm not saying that it can't work from a mental or psychological standpoint, if you believe that it will, it may, however there is no biomechanical evidence to support the marketing. You will not find a true scientific study supporting TMaG's claims. I don't count color graphics in a brochure or on a computer screen.

 

That's why I won't buy an adjustable driver with weights. IMHO, it's a waste. Buying it means that I believe in it. Sorry.

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

 

I wish I knew of these studies before...

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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Yea, but Ice, you can find a study to basically confirm just about anything. Having had companies in the medical field, I could give you a study from Harvard Medical Center that says that the sky is blue & a study from Johns Hopkins that says that the sky is grey, both authored by world renowned physicians/researchers. Who's right?

 

I have to admit that I have not seen this Yale study, and since it's not yet published, it's not accessible on the net, though I've always been skeptical that a 10 or 16 gram Weight would alter an 85-90mph SS, much less mine(109mph) or a tour pros(110-130mph).

 

Supposedly TMaG is going to have to state on their marketing literature that the ASP is for "visual benefit." We'll see.

 

Have a good one.

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

 

TM is full of crap tough... for example the RBZ 17 yard thing is based on "150 ball speed." Assuming they are the exact same golf ball this would give the exact same distance... if clubhead speed is the same and it's 1 yards longer then it really is. They can really say whatever they want about the ASP because they can show that is does change the way the club sits on the ground and tell people that it makes a difference.

What's In The Bag:

 

Adams 9064LS

Ben Hogan Edge CFT Ti

Ben Hogan Apex Edge 4-PW

TaylorMade ATV 50* 54*

Mizuno Bettinardi BC3 Tour Issue

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  • 5 months later...

I have never been drawn to Mizuno drivers, I don't even recall ever hitting one, which is pretty strange since I've hit about everything. I like their hybrids and love their irons across the entire lineup.

 

Cleveland is a strange company to categorize. I don't care about adjustability. I like being able to change shafts, but I don't change them often enough to care really. I'd buy non-adjustable with no qualms. I'd rather have no adjustments than poor ones. I think they make a good product across their whole lineup, I've gamed products in every category except putters and have had a lot of success with their products. They seem to always have a driver out that tempts me to buy it and they make an iron for everyone (my two previous iron sets were Cleveland). They also price their stuff competitively. The only thing they lack is the marketing flash of TaylorMade. Somehow Clevelands marketing makes them seem somewhat old-school and frumpy which I think leads some people to not even consider their products. Their HiBore drivers were about the only exception to this, I think they were really on to something with that, but then they followed it up with "Cleveland Classic", which from a marketing standpoint is kind of like throwing a car in reverse while speeding down the highway! If I were restricted to one company's products for all my clubs, Cleveland might actually be my first choice and I know I'd game a full bag of Cleveland over a full bag of TM. That being said, there isn't a single Cleveland club in my bag at the moment, and there are two TM clubs in there (both were free). I don't even know why exactly, it just happened that way!

Ping I20 8.5* - Aldila NV 65g S
Adams XTD Super Hybrid 15* - Stock Fubuki S
Adams DHY 21* - Stock Matrix Ozik White Tie S
Mizuno MP58 4-8 Irons - Fujikura MCI 100 S
SCOR 42,46,50,54,58* - SCOR/KBS Genius S
STX Robert Ingman Envision TR 35", Iomic grip

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've got the adjustable RBZ driver, I put in a different shaft in the standard position and don't think I've moved it since. I like that I have the option to play with it but I doubt I ever will.

In Nick's Ogio Edge Stand Bag
Driver: Taylormade Rocketballz 9.5* Aldila Rip'd NV Stiff
Fairway: Tour Edge CB4 15* Rip Gamma Stiff
Hybrid: Adams Idea Pro A12 18* KBS Tour X
Irons: Mizuno MP-53 3-PW DG X100
Wedges: Mizuno MP R-12 52* & 56* DG Spinner
Putter: Taylormade Ghost Spider Si 38"

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