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FST vs KBS


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I know FST and KBS are the same company. I was wondering if anyone has done a comparison between FST shafts and KBS shafts, specifically the FST Pro vs KBS Tour.

 

KBS Tour ($25): http://www.hirekogolf.com/hireko/orderportal/catalog_presentation/by_group/0/2358/0/0/0/0/0

FST Pro 125 ($10): http://www.hirekogolf.com/hireko/orderportal/catalog_presentation/by_group/0/2370/0/0/0/0/0

FST 125 ($6): http://www.hirekogolf.com/hireko/orderportal/catalog_presentation/by_group/0/2369/0/0/0/0/0

 

FST shafts are categorized as mid ball flight, KBS stiff is mid-low and KBS x-stiff is low.

 

 

Here's a chart comparing different specs (stolen from Hireko's extremely helpful DSFI charts):

 

KBS_FST_comparison.jpg

 

 

First off I really don't know how to interpret the frequency measurements, though it almost seems like FST 125 X flex is similar to KBS Tour S flex, which would be very interesting to me. However their balance points don't match up.

 

Anyway, if someone who understands these numbers or has tried both shafts has any opinions, I'd be interested in hearing them.

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Answering some of my own questions, but I found some more info on the various numbers:

 

For BP1 BP2 BP3 (balance points)

For cut shaft testing, three different variations of balance point were recorded. Balance Point #1 (BP1) was based on the raw shaft before trimming. Balance Point #2 (BP2) was the measurement of balance point after trimming for installation into a clubhead. Balance Point #3 (BP3) was the balance point measurement for the club when assembled with the test clubhead and grips at standard length and swingweight C-6 (ladies length) or D-1 (at men's length). In all cases the balance points are measured up from the tip of the shaft (or ground line on BP3).

 

Shaft frequency refers to the number of cycles per minute (cpm) that the shaft registered after assembly to the appropriate finished Driver, Hybrid or #5iron specifications. The standard swingweights for the L-flex clubs is C-6 and Men's flexes are tested at D-1. The frequency measurements are recorded for the both men's and ladies metal wood Drivers, fairway utility, hybrids and #5-irons at the length listed six columns to the right. Frequency derived from butt clamping 5.25” with the gripped club.

 

Butt and tip deflection readings are two measurements to compare relative flex using a deflection board with a load cell to record the force when the shaft is deflected 4”. The measurement is provided in ounces of force and the cantilevered length is 5.25”, which is the same as the frequency to show how these two measurements compare. Deflection is a long time measurement for flex, because it is analogous to the shape of the shaft when it is bent during the swing. Normally deflection has been recorded by clamping the butt end. We have also included tip deflection to provide added insight into tip stiffness.

 

T/B Ratio stands for tip-to-butt ratio. This is simply the relationship between the tip and butt deflection measurements (technically the butt-to-tip) to illustrate the stiffness distribution of the shaft. Shafts that have higher T/B ratios can be described as lower bend points (tip weak, butt stiff) or shafts that might produce a higher trajectory. Shafts with a lower T/B ratio can be described as possessing a higher bend point (firm tip, weak butt) or lower launch angle shafts. The T/B ratio does not reflect the actual bend point location, rather provides a meaningful parameter to predict which shafts may launch the ball either higher or lower relative to one another.
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The answer is they don't compare, not even in the same ballpark. I have the FST Pro 125 XS, hard stepped and they don't even feel as solid as my DG S300s. The only KBS shaft I've played is the Tour XS and it is 10X the shaft as the FST. The FST's were worth trying, as I picked them up on clearance for $5.99 per. I'm getting ready to hard step my DG S300s and a KBS Tour C-Taper XS in a few weeks, to decide what I'm going to game in the off season.

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The answer is they don't compare, not even in the same ballpark. I have the FST Pro 125 XS, hard stepped and they don't even feel as solid as my DG S300s. The only KBS shaft I've played is the Tour XS and it is 10X the shaft as the FST. The FST's were worth trying, as I picked them up on clearance for $5.99 per. I'm getting ready to hard step my DG S300s and a KBS Tour C-Taper XS in a few weeks, to decide what I'm going to game in the off season.

 

Thanks JBones, that helps a lot. Looking at the numbers, the FST Pro is strangely a lot weaker than the standard FST, probably because it's stepless. The X flex actually looks like a R flex.

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If memory serves, the FST lineup predates the KBS lineup. Basically...it's pre Kim Braly. Different designer, etc.

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A few things I want to say about this

 

1) Well they are not the same company so to speak, look at KBS as a sub company that uses FST's manufacturing process. Here is a link to the background on FST / FEMCO steel >> http://kbsgolfshafts.com/company/fst-manufacturing

 

2) Kim Braly was the original designer on the Rifle / PX shafts (PX when it was a satin finish), the new PX (chrome finish) doesn't even play the same or feel the same as the old satin shafts once did. I have heard once before that KB said if he had the manufacturing process of FST when he designed the Rifle / Px line no one would play anything different today.

 

3) CPM only gives you a BUTT FREQUENCY, it really doesn't tell you anything about how the shafts PROFILE will play over all in terms of feel and spin rate.

~ Example PX 7.0 = 270CPM @ 43", KBS CT XS 7.3 = 273CPM @ 43" the PX 7.0 plays like a 7.5 over all (about a 1/2 flex firmer feeling) and the KBS CT plays more like a 6.8 (a half flex softer feeling over all) both would have roughly the same amount of spin probably with the CT coming in a hair lower. (At least comparing the 6.5 PX to the KBS CT XS because they are the closet in stiffness over all the CT came out about 500RPM to 1000rpm lower from what I can recall for me)

 

 

In the end you need to test the shaft out for yourself and draw your own conclusions in terms of feel and spin numbers for you. What works for me or anyone else here might not work well for you in the end.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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JM,

 

How is profile measured? I know spin rates are determined by the bend points and the stiffness of the metal.

Spin rates always come from the tip section profile. Let me give you an example... The KBS Tour has a 52% balance point (high bend point), the KBS C-Taper also has a 52% balance point and a high bend point as well. However the two shafts play drastically differently not because of the stepless or stepped construction it's because the tip profiles are designed differently.

 

I can give you a high bend point shaft with a weak tip and the spin rates will climb, I can give you a low bend point shaft with a super stiff tip and the spin rates will decrease. Today's shafts can have any number of combination of over all profiles. However most of the time a high bend point also comes along with a very stiff tip for lower spin rates (the stiff tip) and a lower launch angle (the high bend point).

 

Let me just use RT Technologies shafts because I know there profiles the best and have played there top lines for a long time now as my example.

RT Technologies Zeus LT (68g) X-Stiff, mine came in raw at 263CPM at the FLO point it has a low to mid launch low spin shaft, very very playable sub-70g shaft feels smooth over all to me.

 

RT Technologies Zeus (all silver 75g) Stiff, mine came in at a 274 raw at the FLO point. Think about that, I said STIFF and the CPM is HIGHER then the X-Stiff in the LT what is going on here? Well the profiles are a lot different, but the 75g Zeus is still smooth and very playable for me in a Stiff (CPM suggests a X-Stiff and it plays like that as well)

 

In short here are the profiles of those two shafts, you can read more about it in my RT review

RT Zeus LT (68g) ~ Stiff Butt, Medium Mid, Stiff Tip, High Bend Point

RT Zeus (75g) ~ Stiff Butt, Stiff Mid, Stiff Tip, High Bend Point

 

What exactly is profile measuring?

~ butt frequency (gives a general flex donation)

~ mid section stiffness (deflection board rating)

~ tip section stiffness (torque rating and some companies give a stiffness measurement rating, probably from a deflection board)

~ bend point (high, middle, low)

 

On graphite shafts one easy way to guess how stiff the tip is, flip it over before install and look at the wall thickness, normally the thicker it is the stiffer it is depending on manufacturing process obviously might change that guess a little. Found this link to sort of go along with that.

http://www.hirekogolf.com/hireko/graphics/orderportal/articles/tipheavy_a.html

 

 

These measurements and ideas give you the bigger picture of what the shafts SHOULD feel and do in the swing. Like I said you could in theory have a shaft with the following profiles

Stiff butt, stiff middle, weak tip, high bend point (will increase spin obviously, probably increase launch over a stiffer tip)

Stiff butt, weak middle, x-stiff tip, middle bend point (should have a medium launch but low spin)

 

I could go for awhile about different over all profile matching but I think that I have illustrated what I am trying to say.

 

 

 

Just to get back on topic since I have been using driver shafts to show my profile points steel shafts follow the same sort of idea, only exception is that the freedom in steel to get a specific profile is not as simple.

 

Getting back to iron shafts and PX versus KBS for example.

 

PX ~ X-Stiff Butt, stiff mid, stiff tip, middle bend point (why it feels a little harsh in the swing on the load good for fast / hard transitions)

 

KBS ~ Stiff butt, medium to stiff middle, stiff tip section, high bend point (the middle section and high bend point makes them feels "smooth" or a little softer then they actually play)

NOTE: KBS is also designed with a "single wall" theory, it supposedly gives the shaft a more consistent bend and smoother feel.

 

Side note:

The softest butt section I have ever dealt with is the Diamana White Board 73x is what i used to hit, that profile was

Diamana WB ~ Medium Butt, X-Stiff mid, XX-Stiff tip, high bend point (roughly you get the idea as to the profile design)

 

 

What it comes down to in picking a shaft is two major things

1) how is the launch angle and spin rates (does it balloon?)

2) how does it feel to you as a player? (I personally don't like harsh feeling shafts, i like a smooth softer feeling shaft that preforms, my personal preference)

 

UST lists a stiffness rating on their website for there shafts here is a link

http://www.ustmamiya.com/shaft_models/product.aspx?id=126

 

I'm not sure if this site is still active or not but you get a big list of shaft profiles on it when it was working

http://www.shaftprofiles.com/

 

 

 

 

Also, where have you been? :)

I have been around, just don't post as much.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Here is another example of why you can't really tell how a shaft is going to play from the number most companies provide you.

 

KBS Tour ~ Torque 1.8*, Butt rating 7.1, high bend point

KBS C-Taper ~ Torque 1.8*, Butt rating 7.3, high bend point

 

you would think looking at that without swinging them they would play roughly the same stiffness and roughly the same launch angle and spin rates, we all know dang well that they are DRASTICALLY different in actual application. The Tour is a middle launch middle spin rate, the C-Taper is a low launch, low spin rate.

 

In short it is always best practice to hit the shafts yourself and get professionally fit.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Very helpful JM, thanks.

 

I went back to Hireko's charts to see if I could tease out the profile, but it doesn't look like it. Here is the section on KBS, which makes the C Taper look weaker and more spinny than the KBS Tour, which I know from personal experience is far from the truth. Unfortunately, for some reason Hireko used a 6 iron for the Tour and a 5 iron for most other shafts, including the C Taper..no idea why they did this..

 

KBS.jpg

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Very helpful JM, thanks.

 

I went back to Hireko's charts to see if I could tease out the profile, but it doesn't look like it. Here is the section on KBS, which makes the C Taper look weaker and more spinny than the KBS Tour, which I know from personal experience is far from the truth. Unfortunately, for some reason Hireko used a 6 iron for the Tour and a 5 iron for most other shafts, including the C Taper..no idea why they did this..

 

KBS.jpg

Actually that chart has every thing you need you just need to know what you are looking at...

 

Frequency CPM = Butt frequency (flex)

Butt deflect = butt stiffness (profile piece one)

Tip deflect = tip stiffness (profile piece three)

 

T/B ratio, Torque deg ratings, help a little, the DSFI rating should be pretty close to the average swing speed of the golfer, but there is more that goes into that calculation. Only thing that is really missing is a middle deflect, but you might be able to get that from the T/B ratio i think.

 

 

If you notice that the oz rating in deflect is higher t=for x-stiff then r-stiff as it should be, the higher the reading in that category the stiffer it is. That reading is in oz of pressure to move the section a given amount I do believe.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Actually that chart has every thing you need you just need to know what you are looking at...

 

Frequency CPM = Butt frequency (flex)

Butt deflect = butt stiffness (profile piece one)

Tip deflect = tip stiffness (profile piece three)

 

T/B ratio, Torque deg ratings, help a little, the DSFI rating should be pretty close to the average swing speed of the golfer, but there is more that goes into that calculation.

 

only thing that is really missing is a middle deflect.

 

The main issue is it's comparing a C Taper 5 iron to a Tour 6 iron. I choose these mainly because I've hit both of these shafts and know how they are.

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The main issue is it's comparing a C Taper 5 iron to a Tour 6 iron. I choose these mainly because I've hit both of these shafts and know how they are.

 

KBS themselves gives you a good idea on profile, you don't really need exact numbers honestly, they actually compare the shafts to other leading shafts (at the bottom of the page)

http://www.kbsgolfshafts.com/technology/number-one-shaft-performance

 

also you have this pdf on that page as well that gives more detailed numbers

http://www.kbsgolfshafts.com/downloads/kbs-performance-data.pdf

 

also you have this image as well

http://www.kbsgolfshafts.com/images/product_pages/tour/tour-graphic.png

 

 

all of this tells you that the profiles are clearly different and will produce different spin numbers, launch angles, etc for different tempos, swing speeds, attack angles, etc. which is why you get fit for shafts to optimize you distance and control right?

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Everyone,

 

Great feedback here! We have a thread dedicated to KBS for everyone wanting to ask us questions. I found this as I was browsing around and wanted to give some input.

 

KBS and FST are made in the same factory under the same company. Both are high quality, but KBS is the premiere line of shafts. KBS is a much different design in step pattern, wall thickness, taper rates, and overall much stiffer. FST is lighter, more flexible overall, and only available in .370 tip. FST is great for club makers as it is a cost effective shaft with very consistent performance. Because they are all .370 tip, customized performance is popular with club makers.

 

KBS should be your choice if you are looking for the best combination of performance in a steel shaft. This is taking into account feel, piercing trajectory, optimal spin rate, and stiffer performance.

 

Thanks again! Please message us or comment in the "Official KBS Thread" for KBS questions!

 

-CM

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