MattF Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I'm interested in experimenting with counter-weighting my drivers. I hit my irons and hybrids pretty well and actually pretty straight (no fade/slice/draw or hook) but my drives are another matter. I used to hit a slice but that's now turned into a hook and from what I've read about counter-weighting, there may be a big benefit for me. Can anyone explain, in layman's terms, the pro's, con's etc of doing this. I've read a lot on the net from places that do it, but that is more promotional blurb than real world "this is what I did and this was the result" stuff. All thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated. Quote In the bag: Driver: TSR2 Project X HZRDUS Black 5.5 Fairway: Apex UW 19° & 21° Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX Black 5.5 Irons: JPX 923 HMP 5-PW UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Wedges: T-22 Denim Copper 48°, 52° & 56° UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Putter Sycamore 005 Wide Blade Bag: Alpha Convoy 514 Balls: Chrome Soft X Cart: CaddyLite ONE Ver. 8 God Bless America, God save the King, God defend New Zealand and thank Christ for Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saternus Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I've been messing around with counter weighting a bit, though not in a scientific enough fashion (yet) to say anything conclusive. We do plan on putting counter weighting through an MGS Lab in the near future. But then again, if you listen to the people out front, those aren't worth s*** anyway. FWIW, it's a relatively inexpensive experiment, certainly cheaper than swapping shafts all over the place. Quote Follow me on Twitter: @MattSaternus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Matt, Are you going to just do putters or will you include other clubs. I agree that's it's a fairly inexpensive route to take and will probably take the plunge with the drivers and play around with them a bit and see what the results are. I'm hoping there have been others that have experimented with counter-weighting that will chime in. MattF Quote In the bag: Driver: TSR2 Project X HZRDUS Black 5.5 Fairway: Apex UW 19° & 21° Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX Black 5.5 Irons: JPX 923 HMP 5-PW UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Wedges: T-22 Denim Copper 48°, 52° & 56° UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Putter Sycamore 005 Wide Blade Bag: Alpha Convoy 514 Balls: Chrome Soft X Cart: CaddyLite ONE Ver. 8 God Bless America, God save the King, God defend New Zealand and thank Christ for Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK in TEXAS Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Matt, Are you going to just do putters or will you include other clubs. That's funny Quote MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON HDCP: 8.3 (GHIN: 3143312) In my bag, April 2023 TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex) TS2 Hybrids Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex) MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex) SM8 Wedges EVNROLL ER2 Putter SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL Sun Mountain Cart Bag 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 That's funny I'm a bit dense BK. I've seen a lot on counter-weighting putters and wedges but not too much on drivers. Quote In the bag: Driver: TSR2 Project X HZRDUS Black 5.5 Fairway: Apex UW 19° & 21° Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX Black 5.5 Irons: JPX 923 HMP 5-PW UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Wedges: T-22 Denim Copper 48°, 52° & 56° UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Putter Sycamore 005 Wide Blade Bag: Alpha Convoy 514 Balls: Chrome Soft X Cart: CaddyLite ONE Ver. 8 God Bless America, God save the King, God defend New Zealand and thank Christ for Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saternus Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The plan is to look at both putters and full-swing clubs. Quote Follow me on Twitter: @MattSaternus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 The plan is to look at both putters and full-swing clubs. That's one review I'm looking forward to! Quote In the bag: Driver: TSR2 Project X HZRDUS Black 5.5 Fairway: Apex UW 19° & 21° Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX Black 5.5 Irons: JPX 923 HMP 5-PW UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Wedges: T-22 Denim Copper 48°, 52° & 56° UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Putter Sycamore 005 Wide Blade Bag: Alpha Convoy 514 Balls: Chrome Soft X Cart: CaddyLite ONE Ver. 8 God Bless America, God save the King, God defend New Zealand and thank Christ for Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firstkart Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Matt, Sorry to throw a spanner in the works on your theory but I would have to suggest that you have a technical fault in your swing that is being multiplied in the driver. I can say this because I have experienced exactly the same where I was hitting everything straight except my driver . First slicing and then pulling and hooking to now straight. Not knowing exactly where you are with your grip, alignment etc, I would like to recommend that you either get a lesson from a pro or post a video for us to critic your driver swing. (could be risky i know ) AJ ObsessiveIndecisive 1 Quote WITB Driver: Ping G25 FW: TM RBZ Irons: Miura 57 Series w/KBS C-Taper Wedges: Vokey SM4 52-08,56-12,60-04 Putter: Watch This Space Ball: SRixon Z Star Other: Tourstriker 7i "Go Hard or Go Home" "Do or Do Not. There is NO "TRY" "Be normal, and the crowd will accept you. Be deranged, and they will make you their leader" "I don't fail. I succeed at finding what doesn't work" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I counter weighted a set of Iron shafts in an attempt to save a very badly cut set by stabilizing them. The effect of counterweight is to bring the center of balance of the entire club up to a higher point on the shaft and I was only able to do so by adding 20+ grams per shaft to the butt end. At that point I had stabilized the set enough to know that that set would never serve and I disposed of the shafts as junk and rebuilt the irons with a new set of shafts. The tricky part of counter weighting is figuring out how much to add to have an effect that you can feel and see the difference of. Figuring out the amount of weight needed can be clumsy and tedious, and the results not necessarily worth the effort. I plan to never again resort to counter weights but plans can go awry at any time. Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Tuna Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I don't actively counter balance my clubs, but most of my favorite shafts for driver/fairway are (even if I don't use them all the time). I especially like the feature in lower weight shafts. It gives the impression of more weight under the hands which is often enough to trick those with a faster transition to keep on plane. They think the shaft is heavier then it is, because it feels so under the hands. It also works well for those players that also suddenly want to swing out of their shoes when you give them a light weight shaft. Definately a behind the ears thing but watching a guy try to MURDER the ball with a Tour AD BB in their hands is funny. It's even funnier when you had them a Attas International Series 5 and watch that swing fall right back into the standard tempo and plane for them. I've had great luck with of guys. Both into PX or AWT iron shafts and then things like a Blur TS, Attas or AXIV Red in the driver. Quote I laught at your claims to fight a zombie apocalypse when most of you can't stand up to a Spider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambles Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 ... I especially like the feature in lower weight shafts. It gives the impression of more weight under the hands which is often enough to trick those with a faster transition to keep on plane. They think the shaft is heavier then it is, because it feels so under the hands. It also works well for those players that also suddenly want to swing out of their shoes when you give them a light weight shaft. ... Nicklaus used to put lead tape under his grips and also added lead to the tips to make his clubs heavier but not lose the swing weight or lose the swing balance. He definitely believed in the heavier club. There were also other less watched pros who added weight for their own comfort. I myself used to like a heavier club to keep my swing calm. Shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 Matt, Sorry to throw a spanner in the works on your theory but I would have to suggest that you have a technical fault in your swing that is being multiplied in the driver. I can say this because I have experienced exactly the same where I was hitting everything straight except my driver . First slicing and then pulling and hooking to now straight. Not knowing exactly where you are with your grip, alignment etc, I would like to recommend that you either get a lesson from a pro or post a video for us to critic your driver swing. (could be risky i know ) AJ And there's the rub, it's only with the driver...but I think I know what it is and will get out to the range and try a couple of things to see if I'm right. If I am, I'll go to a pro and have him set me straight. As for videoing my swing and posting it here, I hear ya and for now, it's not happening! I'm going to take the plunge and get a Tour Lock Opti-Vibe and a Tour Lock pro counter weight and play around with them and see what happens. If they don't do anything for me, I'm out about $20 and can just regrip the club. Quote In the bag: Driver: TSR2 Project X HZRDUS Black 5.5 Fairway: Apex UW 19° & 21° Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX Black 5.5 Irons: JPX 923 HMP 5-PW UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Wedges: T-22 Denim Copper 48°, 52° & 56° UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Putter Sycamore 005 Wide Blade Bag: Alpha Convoy 514 Balls: Chrome Soft X Cart: CaddyLite ONE Ver. 8 God Bless America, God save the King, God defend New Zealand and thank Christ for Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMiller Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Mr. Nicklaus used to back weight his irons from a D2 to a D0, so one of the best players to ever play this game did it with success. It is purely a feel thing for what you like, I personally like heavier heads something in the D2 to D6 range depending on the club. Quote Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps) Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxio Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 My best experiment backweighting was with 95-100 gram iron shafts. They increased swingspeed and maintained control. Don't pay attention to swingweight or it will get mental. I used the 85 gram backweighted grips that golfsmith sold. Until they wore out ( not very durable grips). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 Mr. Nicklaus used to back weight his irons from a D2 to a D0, so one of the best players to ever play this game did it with success. It is purely a feel thing for what you like, I personally like heavier heads something in the D2 to D6 range depending on the club. My best experiment backweighting was with 95-100 gram iron shafts. They increased swingspeed and maintained control. Don't pay attention to swingweight or it will get mental. I used the 85 gram backweighted grips that golfsmith sold. Until they wore out ( not very durable grips). Thinking more about it, with what you are both saying, I have FST Pro115 shafts in my irons, obviously as the name implies, they are 115g raw. I'm wondering if the 65g shafts in my drivers are contributing, along with my sucky swing, to my drives being unpredictable. This new thought process has me believing that counter or back weighting may help in the long run. Quote In the bag: Driver: TSR2 Project X HZRDUS Black 5.5 Fairway: Apex UW 19° & 21° Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX Black 5.5 Irons: JPX 923 HMP 5-PW UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Wedges: T-22 Denim Copper 48°, 52° & 56° UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Putter Sycamore 005 Wide Blade Bag: Alpha Convoy 514 Balls: Chrome Soft X Cart: CaddyLite ONE Ver. 8 God Bless America, God save the King, God defend New Zealand and thank Christ for Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theputterman Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Any word back on testing Counterweights. MattF did you get a chance to test out the Tour Lock weights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saternus Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Any word back on testing Counterweights. MattF did you get a chance to test out the Tour Lock weights? Thanks for asking. The full swing testing with the counter weights is done. Now we need to figure out what all the numbers mean and write it up. Quote Follow me on Twitter: @MattSaternus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 Any word back on testing Counterweights. MattF did you get a chance to test out the Tour Lock weights? No mate I didn't. To be honest, I haven't even gotten them yet, I've been so busy working 2 jobs I really don't know if I'll be pursuing that idea now or not. But it will be interesting to see what Matt and the MGS crew come up with, with their test. Quote In the bag: Driver: TSR2 Project X HZRDUS Black 5.5 Fairway: Apex UW 19° & 21° Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX Black 5.5 Irons: JPX 923 HMP 5-PW UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Wedges: T-22 Denim Copper 48°, 52° & 56° UST Mamiya Recoil 95 F4 Putter Sycamore 005 Wide Blade Bag: Alpha Convoy 514 Balls: Chrome Soft X Cart: CaddyLite ONE Ver. 8 God Bless America, God save the King, God defend New Zealand and thank Christ for Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK in TEXAS Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Thanks for asking. The full swing testing with the counter weights is done. Now we need to figure out what all the numbers mean and write it up. I' m looking forward to those results too. BK Oh, and I'm pretty good with statistics if ya ever want or need help crunching numbers Quote MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON HDCP: 8.3 (GHIN: 3143312) In my bag, April 2023 TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex) TS2 Hybrids Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex) MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex) SM8 Wedges EVNROLL ER2 Putter SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL Sun Mountain Cart Bag 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mega Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Part 1 Counterweighting has helped me tremenously and has continued to help me as my swing has improved and my handicap dropped from the 15's to the 10's. My first experience with CW was similar to what has been discussed here. My fitter put me in a light weight shaft (57g) and although I could hit it longer when putting a good swing on it I would get quick in my transtion and have control issues plus my contact was all over the face. After trying several CW on the launch monitor we settled on the Balance Certified BC-3 (I've never weighed this but I guessing the 3 may be for 30 grams). With the BC-3 in the driver and using impact tape and a LM: -My face contact got a lot tighter -Tempo was more consistent swing to swing -Swing path was more consistent (more from the inside and far less of the OTT) -face angle was more consistent -My spin was reduced and my trajectory flattened out Needless to say the above is a recipe for longer distances while increasing Fwys hit. To be honest I don't know why I waited so long to try CWs in my other clubs. I have always struggled with really short swings, so short putts, chips, pitches with a l/4 swing etc. I like swinging a club (1/2 swing or more and longer putts) One day I was in a shop and picked up both a heavy putter and a heavy wedge and noticed I could make very short swings in controlled manner with a nice consistent tempo. First I bought a heavy putter. It worked well up to 15 or 20 feet but I couldn't get the long ones close and saw my 3 putts go up. I went back to a normal putter but eventually bought a 100 gram and 60 gram weight (Tour Lock Pro) and experimented. The 100 gram weight gave me about the same results of the heavy putter but the 60 gram was a nice compromise and improved my putting from all distances. Have to leave for work so I will post a Part 2 to share my experiences with CWs in the irons, hybrids, and fwy woods... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mega Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Part 2 I started my iron CW experiment with 8, 12, and 20 gram weights in my wedges. Keep in mind my shafts are KBS Tour so they are not a light weight shaft. Unfortunately this was not a LM based like it was with the driver. Nevertheless, the addition of the CW clearly had an impact. The 20 gram weight was best for the partial shots particularly the shorter swings but my full iron shots where coming up short. In the end I installed this in my 61* wedge since I never use it for a full shot. The 8 gram weight wasn't enough weight for the partial shots so I didn't give them a full eval on full shots since my priority was improving the partial shots. The 12 gram weight was just enough to help smooth out those shorter swings but did not impact my distance on the full shots. Although technically I am hitting the same clubs the same distances, with the 12 gram weights I have less of those outliers where I come up real short. The push fades that use to come up short tend to be straight pushes that still carry the normal distance. I am much more consistent in hitting a draw, I do believe the CW contribute some to this but I would be remiss in not giving the majority of that credit to my teaching pro. On the flip side as my swing has gotten better, if I make a mistake and go left, it does sometimes feel like the CW may exaggerate the issue some but it takes a bad swing to begin with (either slight OTT or a flip that gets the face looking left). I am using the standard Tour Lock Pro weight, the have a newer product that allows you to move the weight up in down in the shaft, the benefit is supposed to be the ability to tune ball flight. I have one of these Opti Vibe inserts but have not done anywork with it. Once I settled with 12 grams in the wedges I installed the same size in the 7 & 8 iron and immediately saw a benefit. At first I tried to go without the CW in my Cobra DWS since they are a hefty feeling club as it is but I was having some inconsistencies with these (they have 65 gram graphite shafts) that improved dramatically once I added the 12 grams. Same goes for my RBZ 3HL. If I could afford a full LM shaft fitting session with a CW follow-up I would try the lightweight shaft concept (maybe some AT Steel Fibers) with a CW, based on my experience with the driver, I think its a valid concept. I would love to have 20 or more grams under my hands but with KBS Tour shafts that is just to much overall club weight for me but take 10 to 30 grams off my shaft weight, who knows. I will say it is difficult to demo clubs these days because they feel so different, particularly drivers, I guess that is the only downside (or upside depending on your point of reference)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMRT Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I did not counter weight my driver, but I did add about 40 to 50 grams to the head with lead tape and it has worked great for me. I have a faster, more violent swing and this was the only way I have found to help me control it. It did take a few try's to get it located correctly. For me dead center on the back side with a little bit heading down toward the heel was what worked. I actually built a very light weight jumbo grip so I guess I did the oppisite of counter-weighting and I have been hitting farther and straighter than ever. Side note. Since this worked so well with my driver I tried it on other clubs and it did not work at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTCarrera Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Anyone counterweight your entire set, using graduated weights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saluki91 Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 On 4/18/2020 at 11:12 AM, TTCarrera said: Anyone counterweight your entire set, using graduated weights? The short answer to your question is "Yes". However, I used lead foil tape under the grips instead of purpose-built weights which are inserted into the butt of the shaft. It was an interesting experiment, and I have recently revisited it with a back-up set of irons. In both cases, I wanted to bring swing weight down. Adding weight to the butt will fool the SW scale, but total weight definitely increases. That can be good or bad. The first time I tried this, adding to the total weight of the club wasn't desirable at that stage in my development as a golfer. Naturally, this will vary with the individual, but I found the added weight slowed me down, and the change in feel promoted a throw move from the top. A throw-induced two-way miss made it real easy take that tape off! The jury is still out for my second experiment. I wanted to reduce SW, and my swing mechanics are now such that controlling the added weight isn't as big of a deal. However, the Coronapocalypse isn't helping. I need some range time, and some actual golf-under-fire, before I can make an informed decision. See here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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