Is this a good theory about Irons?

[hckymeyer]

Let's get this out of the way first...My name is Brian and I am a (club) ho.

 

Now that we have that straightened out we can get on with the iron discussion. I currently have two sets of irons. My gamers are a combo set of Scratch irons 4i-6i are AR1 (cavity) and 7i-PW are SB1 (blades). My backup set is a new old stock set of Maxfli Revolution black dots. I've literally played them for one round and that's the only time I've ever hit them.

 

I've been through an iron fitting with my gamers, and I'm confident that they are properly fit to my game (aside from maybe not being the best heads for me). I plan on re-building the Maxfli's to the same specs over the winter.

 

Here's where I would like to start the discussion. I've always been under the impression that the big benefit to playing a blade or players cavity back is workability and feel. Believe me they feel great when you flush them. It's one of the best feelings in golf. But here's my problem, I can't intentionally work the ball. I should maybe clarify that statement. Sometimes I can get it to go right on purpose, but I mostly play a straight ball with maybe a little cut.

 

The thing I'm getting a little tired of with my current irons is distance loss on slightly off hits. It doesn't happen a lot during a typical round, but even a few times can cost me a couple of strokes. So I'm thinking I want to move to something a little more forgiving. I've been looking through a lot of reviews and I'm leaning towards a switch for next season. I don't plan on getting rid of the Scratch irons, but if something works better for me I'll probably game them.

 

So here are my questions. If you don't work the ball as part of your game, is there any benefit to playing blades? For that matter if you aren't really working the ball is there even a benefit to a less forgiving players cavity back? I was originally looking towards something like the Adams CMB, Wilson FG Tour V2, Mizzy 59's, 53's or maybe even 57's. Then I was thinking why not go to something even easier to hit like the Wilson Ci11's. I just have too many options and opinions floating around in my head to think it through.

 

Then I go back to the Maxfli's. I really don't know a ton about them other than they got great reviews and were a killer deal. Does anyone know where those fit in to the iron spectrum?

 

I just want something that doesn't punish me with distance loss on slightly off-center hits. This year I went from a 10 to a 6 handicap. My goal for next year is to get down to the 3-4 range. I think this switch along with short game practice can get me there.

 

Sorry for the rambling post, but it's where I'm at in the thought process right now.

[RoverRick]

I have a set of Hogan CFT's (Cavity Backs) and a set of Mizuno MP62's (Muscle Backs). We are talking 5-P. I have Titleist 909H 19 and 21 in place of the 3 and 4 irons, well, in the summer I play the MP FLI HI 2 and 4 but winter I play the hybrids. Since I was not 100% the last two days I played the CFT's. more forgiveness etc. Then today I played 27 holes. On the last 9 I put the Mizzies back in the bag. When I was striking the ball poorly, with the CFT's, it made no real difference. Poor contact is poor contact. When I made good contact, I made good contact. What I am saying is, while the CB's felt better on miss hits than the MB's, I did not miraclously hit more greens. If I hit it badly, it turned out badly.

 

Since I was missing the greens, my short game was that much more important. The thing to me is that I would much rather chip with MBs than CBs. So I needed much better control with chipping than when I am striking the ball well. Now, on the last 8 holes, actually the last 6 and 1/2 holes, I suddenly started hitting the ball great. I had the MBs in the bag and I felt like I could get it closer with them.

 

Maybe, my swing was just too bad for the clubs to cover up. Maybe what I need is a set of Adams a12OS and a set of MB's. Then I could truely tell the difference. Actually, I have a friend with a set of these, and if he is there tomorrow, I will hit some on the range to see if that makes a difference. This guy is a pretty low handicapper but he says he does not want to think about his swing so he plays these irons.

[Kanoito]

If working the ball is not your priority, I would say there is really no benefit in playing blades.

 

However, one aspect you forgot to mention is how the looks appeal to you. We've heard hundreds of times how it's all in the head, if you like what you see on address it will boost your confidence, yada yada.

 

So you gotta find a balance point between the looks that you like (or can stand) and forgiveness.

 

I love how blades look at address, but I know my game would suffer. I hate shovels, but I know they could probably save me a couple of strokes on mishits.

 

-> compromise! And went for a CB that is not very punishing on mishits

 

Before I got the MP59, I also tried the Adams MB2. They were beautiful, but hard to play for me. Then the fitter put the CB3 next to them and to tell you the truth, they were just as beautiful as the MB2, but offered more forgiveness.

 

The MP59 were very similar to the CB3 for me. The only reason I chose them was faster delivery times I just couldn't wait that long! Haha

[xxio]

For me I use blades in my scoring clubs not so much for left to right or right to left but trajectory control. I hit a lot of knockdowns from 150 in and blades just work better for me in that aspect. I still try to hit a draw with everything

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Put me in the "can't work the ball" group, as well. Depending on the day, a "natural" shot for me is a slight draw or a slight fade. A cut is purely by accident. Hooks and slices, well....

 

That said - went from Ping G-15's to a set of Hogan Apex Plus cavity backs two years ago and loved the results. That encouraged me to look at the MP-59's for this year. During the fitting we looked at the MP-53's, 63's and 69's with all kinds of shafts, as well as the i-20 and S-56 Ping irons. Also hit the Wilson V2's (couldn't schedule a fitting with Wilson - very disappointing) and the C-11's. Would have been happy with either one, but so far, so good with the 59's. Forgiving enough but also helping me to learn why a bad shot is a bad shot.

 

Borrowed a set of Titleist AP-2's a few weeks ago - found them to be a tad more forgiving than the 59's - at least for me on that day.

 

So right now, blades aren't in the picture - and since I don't see myself at this point learning to work the ball at will, the 59's will be in the bag for the foreseeable future. Once I get closer to 60 than 50 I'll probably move back towards something more forgiving...with jacked up lofts

[Matt Saternus]

 

So here are my questions. If you don't work the ball as part of your game, is there any benefit to playing blades? For that matter if you aren't really working the ball is there even a benefit to a less forgiving players cavity back? I was originally looking towards something like the Adams CMB, Wilson FG Tour V2, Mizzy 59's, 53's or maybe even 57's. Then I was thinking why not go to something even easier to hit like the Wilson Ci11's. I just have too many options and opinions floating around in my head to think it through.

 

Then I go back to the Maxfli's. I really don't know a ton about them other than they got great reviews and were a killer deal. Does anyone know where those fit in to the iron spectrum?

 

I just want something that doesn't punish me with distance loss on slightly off-center hits. This year I went from a 10 to a 6 handicap. My goal for next year is to get down to the 3-4 range. I think this switch along with short game practice can get me there.

 

Sorry for the rambling post, but it's where I'm at in the thought process right now.

 

Nope. The only problem that you might run into is offset. Not sure if you're in the "I hate offset" crowd, but most forgiving irons will have more than your Scratch do. Could lead to some hooks or a higher ball flight. But ultimately, if you're not trying to work the ball and you want forgiveness, there's no benefit to blades or player's CBs.

[Super Tuna]

Nope. The only problem that you might run into is offset. Not sure if you're in the "I hate offset" crowd, but most forgiving irons will have more than your Scratch do. Could lead to some hooks or a higher ball flight. But ultimately, if you're not trying to work the ball and you want forgiveness, there's no benefit to blades or player's CBs.

 

Depending on the blade head and ones swing, certain ones can alter launch and spin characteristics vs a CB, which may or may not fit someone better.

 

What I've finally come to realize is that to me, a blade style head is a scoring club. That's what I'm thinking when I'm standing over it and that style head appeals to me for that task. Ergo from the highest wedge to at least the 7 iron, I have no interest in anything other then a blade style head. Once I hit the 5 iron and lower, I'm looking for good accuracy and distance control. While I'm still looking at them as shot placement clubs, they aren't pin hunters for me and I stop caring what they look like. Excellent performance is all that matters here. Ergo I really like hybrids from the 5 and down.

 

My problem still is the 6 iron. It's half scoring/half target area shot. I'm not trying to manipulate the ball at all, but hybrids look funky that far up in the set. It's still my bogey club to be honest and I haven't yet found one aside from a S56 that I'm comfortable with.

[hckymeyer]

Thanks for all the feedback so far, really great info and pretty much confirms my thought process. I'm thinking the Maxfli's should be a little more forgiving than the Scratch irons, and they still have thin toplines and very little offset.

 

While I love the look of the clubs, I care more about the result of the shot than the look at address.

 

Guess I'll be keeping an eye out for deals over the winter, otherwise I'm gonna start with the Maxfli's next season and see how they work out.

[Shambles]

Thanks for all the feedback so far, really great info and pretty much confirms my thought process. I'm thinking the Maxfli's should be a little more forgiving than the Scratch irons, and they still have thin toplines and very little offset.

 

While I love the look of the clubs, I care more about the result of the shot than the look at address.

 

Guess I'll be keeping an eye out for deals over the winter, otherwise I'm gonna start with the Maxfli's next season and see how they work out.

 

 

There comes a time when more forgiving does not help. You simply need to confront your errors and correct them. To do so, you need to get intimate with your clubs and discover if the errors belong to your clubs or to your swing. It's also possible that the terrain is the source due to a poor analysis of the needed shot.

 

Bottom line is that an equipment fix is the most convenient and poorest instrument for fixing a problem. Get to know your clubs, fix your swing and then identify those things about your clubs that you do not like. The time to look for better clubs is when you are doing good, not when you have unsolved problems.

 

 

Shambles

[Matt Saternus]

There comes a time when more forgiving does not help. You simply need to confront your errors and correct them. To do so, you need to get intimate with your clubs and discover if the errors belong to your clubs or to your swing. It's also possible that the terrain is the source due to a poor analysis of the needed shot.

 

Bottom line is that an equipment fix is the most convenient and poorest instrument for fixing a problem. Get to know your clubs, fix your swing and then identify those things about your clubs that you do not like. The time to look for better clubs is when you are doing good, not when you have unsolved problems.

 

 

Shambles

 

I can't say that I'm on board with the bolded text. Borrowing liberally from Bruce Rearick: a golf swing is an interaction between the player and the equipment. Give a good player with a driver with a very closed face and he'll figure out a way to hit it. Same thing with an open faced club or a square faced club. All any of us is trying to do is make a piece of equipment do a task. Some pieces of equipment suit certain people, or certain tasks/objectives, better than others. There's no "better" or "right," but there's "works" and "doesn't work."

 

Now, if you were speaking more to the guy with a 50 yard slice who's trying to buy a cure, then I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I don't see that context here.

 

-Matt

[hckymeyer]

There comes a time when more forgiving does not help. You simply need to confront your errors and correct them. To do so, you need to get intimate with your clubs and discover if the errors belong to your clubs or to your swing. It's also possible that the terrain is the source due to a poor analysis of the needed shot.

 

Bottom line is that an equipment fix is the most convenient and poorest instrument for fixing a problem. Get to know your clubs, fix your swing and then identify those things about your clubs that you do not like. The time to look for better clubs is when you are doing good, not when you have unsolved problems.

 

 

Shambles

 

I agree to a certain point. I'm sure terrain can take some credit for a poor shot now and then, I'm not trying to fix that aspect. I would say that I know my irons pretty well at this point. I've probably got 50-60 rounds with them, and mostly I absolutely love them. I've tweaked them, adjusted length/loft/lie and swapped out shafts. Been through a fitting and I'm to the point that I don't think I can squeeze anything else out of them. I'm just thinking at this point in my life I'd benefit from a slightly more forgiving head.

 

Fixing the swing = easier said than done. I'm pretty comfortable with my swing as is. It's not the greatest, but it's mine and I think it's capable of getting me down into the 3-4 handicap range. I need short game work and putting help more than anything.

 

Now on to the fun news...I won an auction on ebay already and bought a set of Adams CMB's. I got them for a great price, one of those "Honey it was too good of a deal to pass up" prices. Plus they have C-Tapers that I can pull and sell to recoup some of the money. Hopefully I will get a little more forgiveness out of them

[BK in TEXAS]

But ultimately, if you're not trying to work the ball and you want forgiveness, there's no benefit to blades or player's CBs.

 

I get confused....what does "forgiveness" really mean? Forgiveness from fat/thin distance loss, forgiveness from hooks/slices, forgiveness for dispersion? I keep reading/hearing that GI's are more forgiving, but blades/CB's are more accurate.....that seems to be conflicting really.

[RoverRick]

Today, I drove the ball great and the short game was incredible. I would say that the putter was on fire but in reality, I did not have to putt on the first six holes because I chipped to within inches of the hole and my competitors hit the ball back to me. Believe me when I say they were true "Gimmes" because those guys were not in the mood to cut me any slack. I had 23 putts. I birdied all the par 5's, I hit every fairway, and shot a 75. However, other than the par 5's and a couple holes that I was able to hit with wedges, I did not hit a single green in regulation with a full iron. Obviously, I was not hitting the irons too badly because I was still able to get the ball close to the hole on the next shot, most of the time. I did have one double bogey when I attempted a flop shot that flopped and then missed the 3 foot bogey putt.

 

So the question is, MBs or CBs. I played MB's the first 9 and CB's the back 9. However, here is the problem, I only needed to hit a full iron shot on 4, 7, 8, 13, 17. I normally hit more irons than that but today with the wind and cooler temperatures I was in had to hit a hybrid on four holes that I normally hit irons.

[RoverRick]

I get confused....what does "forgiveness" really mean? Forgiveness from fat/thin distance loss, forgiveness from hooks/slices, forgiveness for dispersion? I keep reading/hearing that GI's are more forgiving, but blades/CB's are more accurate.....that seems to be conflicting really.

 

Forgiveness? To me the CB's simply feel better on mishits, and may not lose as much distance on mishits. Some GI irons are more prone to hook and will not slice to save you life (PING Eye2's come to mind) but I have never seen any irons that will not hook. At least for me.

[revkev]

Well this is an interesting discussion - I would love to hear the answer to BK's question as well.

 

I remain baffled by the blade thing because I've played GI clubs for some time and can work them enough a little draw, a little cut, I like the security of knowing that if I'm a bit off or if I make a marginal swing I'll get away with it. But to each his own I say just don't say I'm somehow an inferior golfer or trying to cover a flawed swing through equipment. My swing works just fine thank you.

 

I do have a suggestion and that is the Mizuo JPX-825 pros - A bit of forgiveness, a bit of workability - possibly just what you're looking for.

 

Good luck! I'm going to be peaking in on this one with great interest.

[GolfSpy WD]

Along with minimal loss of distance for off center hits, forgiveness is turning a huge hook into a slight draw. Blades can generate way more spin than GI clubs.

[Matt Saternus]

I get confused....what does "forgiveness" really mean? Forgiveness from fat/thin distance loss, forgiveness from hooks/slices, forgiveness for dispersion? I keep reading/hearing that GI's are more forgiving, but blades/CB's are more accurate.....that seems to be conflicting really.

 

Good question. I'm using it to mean that a forgiving club will give you more distance on a mishit. Help on thin shots is a result of low CoG. Help on fat shots could come from a wide sole with a lot of bounce.

[hckymeyer]

I get confused....what does "forgiveness" really mean? Forgiveness from fat/thin distance loss, forgiveness from hooks/slices, forgiveness for dispersion? I keep reading/hearing that GI's are more forgiving, but blades/CB's are more accurate.....that seems to be conflicting really.

 

I would guess that it means a little of all of those things. Personally I just want a little bigger sweet spot. If blades are a dime, then I want a nickel.

 

Well this is an interesting discussion - I would love to hear the answer to BK's question as well.

 

I remain baffled by the blade thing because I've played GI clubs for some time and can work them enough a little draw, a little cut, I like the security of knowing that if I'm a bit off or if I make a marginal swing I'll get away with it. But to each his own I say just don't say I'm somehow an inferior golfer or trying to cover a flawed swing through equipment. My swing works just fine thank you.

 

I do have a suggestion and that is the Mizuo JPX-825 pros - A bit of forgiveness, a bit of workability - possibly just what you're looking for.

 

Good luck! I'm going to be peaking in on this one with great interest.

 

I looked at the 825's and they were in the running. However with the price I ended up getting on the CMB's I couldn't pass them up.

 

Now it's going to be torture for the next 4 months having them sit there and taunt me through the winter months.

[Shambles]

I can't say that I'm on board with the bolded text. Borrowing liberally from Bruce Rearick: a golf swing is an interaction between the player and the equipment. Give a good player with a driver with a very closed face and he'll figure out a way to hit it. Same thing with an open faced club or a square faced club. All any of us is trying to do is make a piece of equipment do a task. Some pieces of equipment suit certain people, or certain tasks/objectives, better than others. There's no "better" or "right," but there's "works" and "doesn't work."

 

Now, if you were speaking more to the guy with a 50 yard slice who's trying to buy a cure, then I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I don't see that context here.

 

-Matt

 

 

Hi Matt,

 

The old term was a search for a magic club. I call it an equipment fix. Buying new equipment with only the vague goal of finding a better game is very unlikely to find success though a specific search for a club with specific characteristics that can help with a niggling problem can bear fruit. The requirement is that there be a specific goal, not just a generic search for a " better " game or more forgiveness. It's boring and tedious but even a regular workout to improve distance can bring other benefits with the package. New clubs only bring the excitement of playing something shiny and unscratched, and hearing the polite noises from friends and acquaintances. You might find a real improvement. Accidents do happen, but that's about all you can hope for with a blind generic search.

 

 

Shambles

[Matt Saternus]

Hi Matt,

 

The old term was a search for a magic club. I call it an equipment fix. Buying new equipment with only the vague goal of finding a better game is very unlikely to find success though a specific search for a club with specific characteristics that can help with a niggling problem can bear fruit. The requirement is that there be a specific goal, not just a generic search for a " better " game or more forgiveness. It's boring and tedious but even a regular workout to improve distance can bring other benefits with the package. New clubs only bring the excitement of playing something shiny and unscratched, and hearing the polite noises from friends and acquaintances. You might find a real improvement. Accidents do happen, but that's about all you can hope for with a blind generic search.

 

 

Shambles

 

Shambles,

 

We are, 100%, on the same boat again. As you said, if you know your club isn't doing ____ because it needs to be _____, then go fix it. If you're just buying in the hopes that new will be better, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

Best,

 

Matt

[BK in TEXAS]

 

 

But ultimately, if you're not trying to work the ball and you want forgiveness, there's no benefit to blades or player's CBs.

 

 

I get confused....what does "forgiveness" really mean? Forgiveness from fat/thin distance loss, forgiveness from hooks/slices, forgiveness for dispersion? I keep reading/hearing that GI's are more forgiving, but blades/CB's are more accurate.....that seems to be conflicting really.

 

Good question. I'm using it to mean that a forgiving club will give you more distance on a mishit. Help on thin shots is a result of low CoG. Help on fat shots could come from a wide sole with a lot of bounce.

 

OK...cool. Good discussion here!

 

SO...lets take a player who strikes the ball solidly (meaning rarely fats/thins one), and dispersion is his only real issue (ie missing both left and right). Would it be safe to say GI heads won't really help him? Could you take it one step further and say it could even increase his dispersion?

[GolfSpy WD]

OK...cool. Good discussion here!

 

SO...lets take a player who strikes the ball solidly (meaning rarely fats/thins one), and dispersion is his only real issue (ie missing both left and right). Would it be safe to say GI heads won't really help him? Could you take it one step further and say it could even increase his dispersion?

 

If the miss is a push/pull, then probably not. If the miss is a hook/slice, then yes, GI irons can help. I don't think they'll hurt in either case though.

[hckymeyer]

If the miss is a push/pull, then probably not. If the miss is a hook/slice, then yes, GI irons can help. I don't think they'll hurt in either case though.

 

So if the club face is square to your swing path at impact with either a push or pull there won't be a lot of benefit. But if you are creating spin then GI or SGI could help mitigate the miss?

[GolfSpy WD]

So if the club face is square to your swing path at impact with either a push or pull there won't be a lot of benefit. But if you are creating spin then GI or SGI could help mitigate the miss?

 

That's my experience. This is also why blades are more workable.

[Super Tuna]

So if the club face is square to your swing path at impact with either a push or pull there won't be a lot of benefit. But if you are creating spin then GI or SGI could help mitigate the miss?

 

Yes.

 

Though that doesn't mean you can't. I can certainly still hook the crud muffin out of a i20/RBZ, it's just that the hook is less pronounced then say, one of my Nike blades.

 

It's one of the reasons I've always liked "players" CB's, even if the results don't pan out. Easy to put side spin on the ball if you want, but takes enough more effort then a muscleback that it's a 10 yard draw/fade instead of a 20+.

[jayhawker]

I would assume that many more of your mishits and more punishable misses come from long irons. One thing I have noticed a lot of players starting to do is combining their irons. It may be beneficial to get larger cavity backs or more forgiving clubs for your lower irons say from 4 to 7 iron. The higher lofted irons are usually a little easier to hit well, and feel becomes more important with more loft, so many people will keep blades or less forgiving clubs for their higher lofted clubs such as 8 iron and up. As long as you hit your high lofted irons well, there is no issue in keeping the blades for those, and swapping out the blades for cavity backs on the rest.

If you are looking for more forgiveness yet still not complete game improvement clubs, I would suggest the cg16 tours. I have a set and love them. In my opinion they look fantastic at address, and are overall easy to hit well. They also can be found fairly inexpensively. I purchased mine on eBay for 300 bucks with shipping, brand new. The ebay seller tee2gree6931 has been selling them at auction new for a while, and now you could probably easily get a set new for 250 bucks. I have a set from him and it is authentic, great clubs. My only regret is getting the black pearl, as it doesn't look as good as it wears.

Hope this helps

Unijayhawk

[Matt Saternus]

OK...cool. Good discussion here!

 

SO...lets take a player who strikes the ball solidly (meaning rarely fats/thins one), and dispersion is his only real issue (ie missing both left and right). Would it be safe to say GI heads won't really help him? Could you take it one step further and say it could even increase his dispersion?

 

The ball moving right and left is the result of club path and face angle (and a little gear effect, but not nearly as much as in a driver). The higher MOI of a GI head will help you hit the ball a little straigher, but not a ton. Ultimately, direction is for the player to control. I don't see much inherent reason why GI clubs should give you better or worse dispersion.

[JMiller]

The ball moving right and left is the result of club path and face angle (and a little gear effect, but not nearly as much as in a driver). The higher MOI of a GI head will help you hit the ball a little straigher, but not a ton. Ultimately, direction is for the player to control. I don't see much inherent reason why GI clubs should give you better or worse dispersion.

 

I sort of laughed at your first post the "i hate offset crowed" probably one of the big reasons i play blades is all offset being the smallest possible without having scratch custom zero offset of something.

 

I think I might have said it before I would like to see robot testing with a blade, players cb, gi, super gi in terms of dispersion with the same shaft in each head. I think the change would be mostly in distance control. I read something before where CBs had a larger dispersion over all then blades on center hits but hte CBs performed better on off center hits for obvious reasons that was something written a long time ago don't know if it has changed with "technology".

 

but yes in the end equipment can't fix everything.

[hckymeyer]

I sort of laughed at your first post the "i hate offset crowed" probably one of the big reasons i play blades is all offset being the smallest possible without having scratch custom zero offset of something.

 

I think I might have said it before I would like to see robot testing with a blade, players cb, gi, super gi in terms of dispersion with the same shaft in each head. I think the change would be mostly in distance control. I read something before where CBs had a larger dispersion over all then blades on center hits but hte CBs performed better on off center hits for obvious reasons that was something written a long time ago don't know if it has changed with "technology".

 

but yes in the end equipment can't fix everything.

 

Can't wait to hear what Matt has to say about the bolded text

 

Actually I'd be interested too, but I think Matt's real name must be John Connor. That would explain his overall hatred for robots.

[JBones]

I'm not in the "I hate offset" crowd, but I've certainly never been a big fan of it. It was my biggest fear with the RBladez, but it has been no problem at all. Again, I'm not going to give a whole lot away, as I want it to go into the review, so you'll just have to check it out there.