About these "open molds" I see referenced in some threads

[NGage]

What exactly are they? Are these just generic molds that are available to anyone? Are people/golf companies/OEM's actually using these, and then just changing a logo or grind/finish?

[alpha_tot]

What exactly are they? Are these just generic molds that are available to anyone? Are people/golf companies/OEM's actually using these, and then just changing a logo or grind/finish?

 

And more importantly, where can I order some generic forged scratch iron heads for cheap?

[alpha_tot]

Didn't find any scratch-looking clubs, but I found a few sellers on alibaba with forged heads. I wonder how much it would cost to buy directly from someone like this: http://aerotechbangpu.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-200042103/Forged_Iron.html

[Dave]

Well the minimum order was 50 sets, and to get a decent price you prob need to order 1000

[Addicted2Golf]

Well the minimum order was 50 sets, and to get a decent price you prob need to order 1000

 

Ouch - that doesn't make individual ordering very practical. Moving along...

[NGage]

Ok...no one's really answered the question....surely someone on here knows a bit more.

[alpha_tot]

I was browsing ebay today and stumbled upon this:

Hakusa X-Blade forged irons.

 

To me they look the same as scratch SB-1's

 

Anyway, I found out the Hakusa's are forged by Kyoei golf, whose house brand is Vega I believe. Vega has some sexy black ones with a nice grind that look like this:

 

Kyoei has their "KCM" irons listed on their website for 10,500 yen or ~$110 USD a piece here, so I don't think my dreams of getting Scratch quality forged clubs for cheap are any closer to becoming a reality. Just thought I'd share my findings.

 

Also, the Scratches are forged from 1018 steel, and the Hayakusa/Vega/Kyoeis are all 1025 if anyone was interested. From what I can gather, Scratch claims to be forged by Ishihara-Shoten, which looks to be a different company located in the same area in Japan... don't know how/if the two are related.

 

I was looking at some geotech clubs too, and found another interesting design:

 

Prototype Forged 670 HC, from Nov 2005 no less, looks familiar

 

Also, I have too much time on my hands

[NGage]

Still would like to hear some answers to my original questions from someone in the know.

[Dave]

There iron's. I mean how is possible for every brand and model too look that different. There's always going to be a bit of overlap.

[JohnBarry]

They do look sharp though

[Guia]

The same mold is used for several different brands, then the names applied. The real question is the metalergy different for each.

[TWShoot67]

The same mold is used for several different brands, then the names applied. The real question is the metalergy different for each.

FYI= it's metallurgy.

[JohnBarry]

Don't think for a minute, these factories in China are not making extras, and shipping them out the back door when a big OEM company places an order. They do it for everything they make, a lot of times, the fakes are not fakes, just back doored product.

[pfingst]

Don't think for a minute, these factories in China are not making extras, and shipping them out the back door when a big OEM company places an order. They do it for everything they make, a lot of times, the fakes are not fakes, just back doored product.

Or perhaps product that didn't quite meet the quality specs. The manufacturer can either eat it or sell it; some will choose to sell it.

[reg]

Who would want a chinese made forging? It may look nice but would play terrible

[phelps22]

Who would want a chinese made forging? It may look nice but would play terrible

 

 

And you could tell the difference between a Japan forged iron and a China forged iron? Lets be realistic here.

[RookieBlue7]

GeoTech has several open designs that are similar to Scratch's designs. Scratch modifies them minutely, but they're still an open design. To find the GeoTechs go over to golftoimpress.com or tourspecgolf.com (Same place)

 

 

 

GeoTech 670H prototype:

Scratch AR-1

 

GeoTech Prototype Classic Forged Blade

GeoTech Prototype N-16

Scratch SB-1

 

And my favorite, that's not really identical to any of the Scratch irons, but is an awesome open design:

 

GeoTech JF10

[reg]

And you could tell the difference between a Japan forged iron and a China forged iron? Lets be realistic here.

 

I can easily feel the difference between hitting a mizuno forged and titleist forged.

 

Whats so special about scratch clubs if they are open moulds?

[xxio]

I can easily feel the difference between hitting a mizuno forged and titleist forged.

 

 

OEMs always aim for a certain type of feel. A "signature feel" if you may. It has nothing to do with the brand or even where something is forged.

 

China forging is nowhere as "bad" as it was 10 years ago. If you want quality work done in China all you have to do is pay the price.

[RookieBlue7]

I can easily feel the difference between hitting a mizuno forged and titleist forged.

 

Whats so special about scratch clubs if they are open moulds?

 

They got the forging house to slightly tweak the open design just a little. They are also hand ground, etc. They're not just an open mold that's assembled and shipped out. The open design is tweaked a bit and they're ground to shape, etc. Forging practically doesn't exist in the US, and the forging houses that are in the US are cost prohibitive for golf equipment. Having a new mold built specifically for your line generally costs around $150k and up, not including forging the heads. They're a boutique company, so instead of having an entirely new mold made at the outrageous price, they simply had the forging house take an open mold and slightly tweak it to their desires (don't know the exact cost, but it's far cheaper to have a design tweaked than created) then they assemble them by hand and hand grind and shape them by hand. There's no assembly line or machines making their clubs.

 

That's the difference. Can you buy an open design that is nearly identical at a fraction of the cost? Sure, but Don White, Jeff McCoy, etc aren't going to have a hand in the design or shaping, etc. And unless you can find the heads slightly overweight because they're not completely finished and happen to be very skilled on the grinding belt, you're not getting the exact same thing. And I've hit both, one they assembled and GeoTechs that I assembled. Scratch makes a quality iron set. Not saying which I liked better.

 

As for the difference in Titleist versus Mizuno, or this manufacturer versus that one. If they're not forged out of the same block of metal, at the same forgind house they're going to feel different. Then you have the fact of Cast versus Forged. Mizuno's irons, for the most part, are all forged, Titleist has an eclectic mix of cast and forged. Then there's the way they assemble them. If you've ever disassembled them, you know what I'm talking about. Then there's the grips they use, etc. You're going to feel differences when comparing any two manufacturer's side by side.

 

It gets down to what you like your clubs to feel like. I prefer to build every set I own and play myself, by hand. That way they're built the same, and I have 0.5 gram tolerances, where manufacturers in an assembly line have wider tolerances. I've seen sets by several brands that there were 3 or 4 different swing weights. Their tolerances are wider. Mine always come out to my preferred D3 swingweight(most of the time, sometimes I go with D2) because I weigh each component individually, match shafts, grips, etc until everything is as close as possible then adjust more during assembly by adding weight if needed. I'm anal retentive like that though. Manufacturers from the big boys can't afford to do every set like that. That's why you have XYZ brand feeling different than ABC brand. Scratch hand assembles everything that goes out their door and have strict tolerances too. They're well built clubs.

[GolfSpy_X]

Little bit off on the costs for your own molds. They actually run in a range from $3500 on the low end up to around $7K for a complex construction using multiple materials. If they were $150K there wouldn't be anyone in the business.

 

They got the forging house to slightly tweak the open design just a little. They are also hand ground, etc. They're not just an open mold that's assembled and shipped out. The open design is tweaked a bit and they're ground to shape, etc. Forging practically doesn't exist in the US, and the forging houses that are in the US are cost prohibitive for golf equipment. Having a new mold built specifically for your line generally costs around $150k and up, not including forging the heads. They're a boutique company, so instead of having an entirely new mold made at the outrageous price, they simply had the forging house take an open mold and slightly tweak it to their desires (don't know the exact cost, but it's far cheaper to have a design tweaked than created) then they assemble them by hand and hand grind and shape them by hand. There's no assembly line or machines making their clubs.

 

That's the difference. Can you buy an open design that is nearly identical at a fraction of the cost? Sure, but Don White, Jeff McCoy, etc aren't going to have a hand in the design or shaping, etc. And unless you can find the heads slightly overweight because they're not completely finished and happen to be very skilled on the grinding belt, you're not getting the exact same thing. And I've hit both, one they assembled and GeoTechs that I assembled. Scratch makes a quality iron set. Not saying which I liked better.

 

As for the difference in Titleist versus Mizuno, or this manufacturer versus that one. If they're not forged out of the same block of metal, at the same forgind house they're going to feel different. Then you have the fact of Cast versus Forged. Mizuno's irons, for the most part, are all forged, Titleist has an eclectic mix of cast and forged. Then there's the way they assemble them. If you've ever disassembled them, you know what I'm talking about. Then there's the grips they use, etc. You're going to feel differences when comparing any two manufacturer's side by side.

 

It gets down to what you like your clubs to feel like. I prefer to build every set I own and play myself, by hand. That way they're built the same, and I have 0.5 gram tolerances, where manufacturers in an assembly line have wider tolerances. I've seen sets by several brands that there were 3 or 4 different swing weights. Their tolerances are wider. Mine always come out to my preferred D3 swingweight(most of the time, sometimes I go with D2) because I weigh each component individually, match shafts, grips, etc until everything is as close as possible then adjust more during assembly by adding weight if needed. I'm anal retentive like that though. Manufacturers from the big boys can't afford to do every set like that. That's why you have XYZ brand feeling different than ABC brand. Scratch hand assembles everything that goes out their door and have strict tolerances too. They're well built clubs.

[RookieBlue7]

Little bit off on the costs for your own molds. They actually run in a range from $3500 on the low end up to around $7K for a complex construction using multiple materials. If they were $150K there wouldn't be anyone in the business.

My bad, the place I looked it up at had it ranging around the price I mentioned in my post. The prices you listed are what I found for cast clubs. Course your sources are better than mine, just curious is all.

[NGage]

Interesting....not sure how I feel about "open mold" clubs. Seems like it's just a generic design -- maybe good, maybe bad -- and that it brings a lot of variables into what you could end up getting. Seems like it could be a real hit or miss thing.

 

Think I feel better about having a big name company standing behind things.

[RookieBlue7]

Interesting....not sure how I feel about "open mold" clubs. Seems like it's just a generic design -- maybe good, maybe bad -- and that it brings a lot of variables into what you could end up getting. Seems like it could be a real hit or miss thing.

 

Think I feel better about having a big name company standing behind things.

 

What's the difference? Lots of them come out of the same foundries as other names. Because their namae is stamped on it makes a difference? When it all comes down to it, all, or should I say most, forged clubs come out of 4 or so foundries in the orient.

[GolfSpy_X]

Added note. Most all putters are forgings that are skim milled from other designs. You would be suprised how many companies say to their foundry, "We want a forging exactly like the _____ putter and then they just skim mill it and possibly make a few different radius cuts along the way to give a slight different look to it.

 

There is not much creativity in this industry believe it or not. They hie rocket scientists to come up with their designs often times and even some of what golfers think are the best designers in the world have little to no creativity when it comes to designing clubs.

[Shambles]

Added note. Most all putters are forgings that are skim milled from other designs. You would be suprised how many companies say to their foundry, "We want a forging exactly like the _____ putter and then they just skim mill it and possibly make a few different radius cuts along the way to give a slight different look to it.

 

There is not much creativity in this industry believe it or not. They hie rocket scientists to come up with their designs often times and even some of what golfers think are the best designers in the world have little to no creativity when it comes to designing clubs.

 

I'm very pleasantly surprised at the honesty displayed here. Ignorance and bias I have grown to live with but such brutal honesty is rare and much appreciated.

 

I agree most " designs " have little changes if any, other than cosmetic or teeny tiny tweaks. Sometimes those teeny tiny tweaks are the telling difference for a specific golfer, or group of golfers. You hold a club and it gives you a feeling of familiarity and confidence. It's like putting your arms around your wife of many years. You know all her secret places and you like it that way.

 

It isn't all that necessary to have a totally different look, though that helps in the marketing. That's a problem for a designer as there are only so many places to put the weight where it helps, unless you change materials. However, even if two or more manufacturers make clubs from the same mold, those raw club heads come out of that mold with excess weight and material that needs grinding off and also polishing. The loft, offset and bounce need making and even the hosel needs designing to suit. They may look alike as we look alike in terms of nose, mouth and eye placement, but there are differences that may or may not suit the buyer. That's the decision point that belongs to you and you alone. We can buy the same looking shirt, but one of us will look better in that shirt.

 

 

Shambles

[Dave]

Interesting....not sure how I feel about "open mold" clubs. Seems like it's just a generic design -- maybe good, maybe bad -- and that it brings a lot of variables into what you could end up getting. Seems like it could be a real hit or miss thing.

 

Think I feel better about having a big name company standing behind things.

 

Bear in mind it's only a mold. The golf manufacturer still determines which blend of metal, grinding, finshing. All of which can make to similar clubs drastically different.

[KrankGolf.com]

To OP...Foundries do have there own designs that they can sell to anyone wanting to start up their own company...Lets say you want to start A&B Golf Clubs...you find a foundry, ask them if they have designs you can use to make your own markings on...they say yes...send you some samples they have molds for already....after that you do what you want with logos and markings, and BAM you got a club...then you order from them...Or companies design there own, mold them, then make protos of them in the US, after they have it all speced out on how they want them to be, they send over to China to get mass produced from different foundries or one big one. It does cost a lot to get them mad, so I doubt you will want on your own to order heads made just for you..unless you have 10k plus to get them in.....

[finalist]

I recently saw a Jeff McCoy square toe next to a Don White square toe. Both were Scratch wedges and the custom grindings were different even though both were Scratch TD wedges. I also got to compare a custom set of Don white square toe SB-1s to my retail Sb-1s and the differences were pretty big in person. Pics just don't show it too well. The McCoy hand grinds were a touch softer. Most notably in the area of the top line that meets the hosel. The Don White stuff was all shaper and thus gave it a more milled look. If you've ever seen a putter fresh off the mill before polishing - that's what the Don White's looked like.

 

It's amazing what a skilled person can do with a generic looking head that starts off over weight.