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OK, first of all, this is going to be a self-deprecating story to tell. Last night I was hitting that X Utility I just got. It has that new Project X PXi shaft in it. I wanted one with a KBS to match my irons. But this was the only option from the site I ordered it. Anyway, I was liking the feel of it (never liked regular PX shafts I tried before). It was a 6.0 flex and my irons are X flex KBS Tours. I wasn't too concerned about it being softer. I don't think I load the shaft as hard with that type of club as I do a mid/short iron flighting the ball down.

 

Well, I decided to pull out my lie board and see how close the lie angle was for me. I have a piece of 1/8 Lexan about 16 inches long maybe I use for a lie board. I put a drill mark in the center to hold a ball in place. I should have put another one further to the left for long irons which I will do after this! I hit my long irons very near the bottom of my swing. It's easy to catch them a little thin sometimes as a result. Well when I set up to hit it, I was telling myself to make sure to stay down to get a good mark off the board. I hung back a bit and just caught the edge of that plastic with the leading edge of the club! The board went skidding across the room and sure enough, I bent the crap out of my shaft! I put it in the loft/lie machine and straightened it back. Surprisingly, it didn't snap off as I expected it to. I hit it a couple of times, but I'm not going to leave it like that.

 

So I ordered a Black Nickel KBS Tour stiff flex to put in it. I'm having second thoughts about it though. The club is 39.75" overall, an 18* 2 iron. I ordered a 40" KBS. That's their raw length for a 4 iron so it would be hard stepped twice. Anyone have any thoughts on that? I know I get along with those shafts really well and would have chosen that to begin with if I had the option. I may have swapped it out later anyway. But I'm disappointed to not get to try that new shaft out and see the ball flight first before deciding to change anything. I'm wondering if I should have stuck with a Stiff 2 iron length of 41" and put it straight in or just ordered a X flex like the rest of the set. Anyway, if anyone has some opinions before I rebuild my "new" club, I'm all ears! :D

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Why would you want to hard step twice when you state earlier that you did not load this shaft like your mid irons. Are they hard stepped twice also? So they are XS++. I have the Mizuno MP FLI HI with a KBS Hybrid shaft but I hard stepped a S flex so that my irons are KBS Tour XS but my 2 iron is S+. It seem that you went the wrong way to me. And this could result in a lower ball flight and less spin. That is ideal if you are wanting it to hit and run forever.

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

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All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

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Why would you want to hard step twice when you state earlier that you did not load this shaft like your mid irons. Are they hard stepped twice also? So they are XS++. I have the Mizuno MP FLI HI with a KBS Hybrid shaft but I hard stepped a S flex so that my irons are KBS Tour XS but my 2 iron is S+. It seem that you went the wrong way to me. And this could result in a lower ball flight and less spin. That is ideal if you are wanting it to hit and run forever.

That's why I'm not sure. What I've read from Wishon is that a hard step once is hardly noticeable by the golfer or LM numbers. Twice is when it just starts to be noticeable, even then not a full flex difference. I was thinking S+ would be good. Just not sure that's what I'll end up with. I don't have enough experience to know what to expect.

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Is this parallel tip or tapered. KBS does not want you trimming a tapered tip. They say that the parallel tip trimmed 3/16" = 0.1 frequency.

 

http://kbsgolfshafts.com/downloads/fitting-info.pdf

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

:918457628_PrecisionPro: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

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Based on what Wishon says and the response I got from KBS over in their official MGS thread, you aren't going to see much launch/spin difference Hard stepping it twice. They said there will be some, but didn't give me a quantifiable number.

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

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Based on what Wishon says and the response I got from KBS over in their official MGS thread, you aren't going to see much launch/spin difference Hard stepping it twice. They said there will be some, but didn't give me a quantifiable number.

Thanks BK. I should have asked them in that thread huh? Thanks for thinking for me! :lol:

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Thanks BK. I should have asked them in that thread huh? Thanks for thinking for me! :lol:

LOL...I actually asked for myself ;) I have a set of Tour X's and was thinking about SS them twice but was worried how much more spin it would impart. I ended up with a set of C-taper S+ instead.

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

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LOL...I actually asked for myself ;) I have a set of Tour X's and was thinking about SS them twice but was worried how much more spin it would impart. I ended up with a set of C-taper S+ instead.

Yea, I went and found your post and their answer after you replied. Should have thought to check it.

 

I found another site that had the S+ flex I wanted. So I cancelled the first order and got that. It's not the Black Nickel finish though. I think what I was going to do would have been fine, probably landed right between the S+ and X from what they said. But, I prefer a little more weight. So the better option would be to SS an X Flex. Since I found the S+, I just went with the standard 2i length in that flex.

 

Funny thing is, that site shows the chrome Tours as low/mid launch and the Black as low launch!? <_ i don think that right. unless mistaken it just a different finish on the same shaft.>

 

Anyway, thanks for the tip.

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Just curious on this one as I don't the answer. Isn't the effects of hard or soft stepping dependant on the headweight of the club? I would have thought the X Utility would weigh more than a standard 2 iron head. If the utility head actually weighs the same as a normal 4 iron head would it still be hard stepped twice?

I have no idea what the headweights of those clubs are though, just curiousity on my part.

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

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Just curious on this one as I don't the answer. Isn't the effects of hard or soft stepping dependant on the headweight of the club? I would have thought the X Utility would weigh more than a standard 2 iron head. If the utility head actually weighs the same as a normal 4 iron head would it still be hard stepped twice?

I have no idea what the headweights of those clubs are though, just curiousity on my part.

It's pretty light. That "muscle" on the back is hollow. I don't know its actual weight compared to my 3i for instance though. I think it's weighted like a 2i would be. It has the 6 gram weight in the sole. I'm trying to find the 8g weight to put in cuz it feels light when I swing it. The shaft change might help with that. The KBS is heavier.

You're right, if it was heavier, the shaft would play softer. If it was that heavy with that long of a shaft though, it would feel like you're swinging a sledge hammer.

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So I ordered a Black Nickel KBS Tour stiff flex to put in it. I'm having second thoughts about it though. The club is 39.75" overall, an 18* 2 iron.

Just a couple notes or things to think about.

~ A lot of 2i at 18* (unless they are hybrids) will play at 39.50" or 39.25" (depends on the "new modern standard" (39.00" 3i) or "old modern standard" (38.75" 3i) lengths). Unless the company originally designed it to be 39.75" long you are over length and will effect swing weight alone, plus the KBS Tour line drops 2 swing points alone if all else stays the same from the 52% balance point (C-Taper only drops 1 point) assuming the shafts weight the same, grip, etc.

 

I ordered a 40" KBS. That's their raw length for a 4 iron so it would be hard stepped twice. Anyone have any thoughts on that? I know I get along with those shafts really well and would have chosen that to begin with if I had the option. I may have swapped it out later anyway. But I'm disappointed to not get to try that new shaft out and see the ball flight first before deciding to change anything.

You can only Hard / Soft step a Taper Tip shaft, it is almost always better for a player to go up one flex and soft step a shaft then it would be to hard step a shaft. I mean with KBS XS you don't have a stiffer flex so you are resigned to hard stepping and possibly doing a 1/4" tip trim (that is the most you can tip trim most tapper tip shafts). Really I would think that in long irons you want a higher ball flight with slightly more spin so the ball comes down a little softer coming into long par 4 and going for par 5s in two shots. I play KBS C-Taper XS in 5-P and KBS Tour XS in the 3 & 4 iron for that reason the CT in the 3/4 came out too low and too little of spin to be effective ball flight for me.

 

I'm wondering if I should have stuck with a Stiff 2 iron length of 41" and put it straight in or just ordered a X flex like the rest of the set. Anyway, if anyone has some opinions before I rebuild my "new" club, I'm all ears! :D

KBS doesn't sell a 1iron shaft, their 2iron shaft length is 41.5" they run 0.5" longer raw then other companies. So you would probably want to order the 41.5" or you would be hard stepping the 3i shaft one time into the 2i again hard stepping should only be done when you are launching the ball too high and spinning too much (ballooning shots) to bring down both slightly.

 

 

 

Parallel tips work a lot differently, and honestly what is your draw to a true 2i anyways? I personally play a 19* hybrid that is a 0.370 bore opening up a lot more options for that club. It launches higher and goes a little bit further even though it's 1* weaker then a 18* 2i. As you see with my signature, i rarely carry my 3i into a tournament or money match where I need 14. It only comes out in replacement of the 19* hybrid in windy courses or if there are a couple holes where the 3i is perfect distance and my hybrid won't get used ever. Bag makeup for you is probably something to look into as you develop skill (not sure what your current hdcp is).

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Just a couple notes or things to think about.

~ A lot of 2i at 18* (unless they are hybrids) will play at 39.50" or 39.25" (depends on the "new modern standard" (39.00" 3i) or "old modern standard" (38.75" 3i) lengths). Unless the company originally designed it to be 39.75" long you are over length and will effect swing weight alone, plus the KBS Tour line drops 2 swing points alone if all else stays the same from the 52% balance point (C-Taper only drops 1 point) assuming the shafts weight the same, grip, etc.

 

 

You can only Hard / Soft step a Taper Tip shaft, it is almost always better for a player to go up one flex and soft step a shaft then it would be to hard step a shaft. I mean with KBS XS you don't have a stiffer flex so you are resigned to hard stepping and possibly doing a 1/4" tip trim (that is the most you can tip trim most tapper tip shafts). Really I would think that in long irons you want a higher ball flight with slightly more spin so the ball comes down a little softer coming into long par 4 and going for par 5s in two shots. I play KBS C-Taper XS in 5-P and KBS Tour XS in the 3 & 4 iron for that reason the CT in the 3/4 came out too low and too little of spin to be effective ball flight for me.

 

 

KBS doesn't sell a 1iron shaft, their 2iron shaft length is 41.5" they run 0.5" longer raw then other companies. So you would probably want to order the 41.5" or you would be hard stepping the 3i shaft one time into the 2i again hard stepping should only be done when you are launching the ball too high and spinning too much (ballooning shots) to bring down both slightly.

 

 

 

Parallel tips work a lot differently, and honestly what is your draw to a true 2i anyways? I personally play a 19* hybrid that is a 0.370 bore opening up a lot more options for that club. It launches higher and goes a little bit further even though it's 1* weaker then a 18* 2i. As you see with my signature, i rarely carry my 3i into a tournament or money match where I need 14. It only comes out in replacement of the 19* hybrid in windy courses or if there are a couple holes where the 3i is perfect distance and my hybrid won't get used ever. Bag makeup for you is probably something to look into as you develop skill (not sure what your current hdcp is).

Thanks for the info JM. Yea, Callaway designed it at 39.75". Their specs show that length for it, and that's how it came. My X Proto 3i is 39.25 which is also their standard length. Both of those are to the end of the grip cap, not the bare shaft.

 

It is a taper tip. I had decided it would be better to soft step a stiffer shaft like you said, mostly because I wanted more weight, not less. I found a 2i length S+ which is what I was after anyway. So I cancelled the first order and have that one coming.

 

I've found websites listing a KBS Tour 1 iron length as 41.5. So I thought they did make one. Maybe the site info was wrong though. The site I ordered from started at 2 iron but didn't specify the raw length. So I'm not sure if it will come 41.5 or 41.

 

As far as what draws me to the club, it's not a regular 2 iron. It's that new Callaway X Utility Prototype which is hybrid-ish, but still plays more like an iron. I prefer irons to hybrids and even FMs. They are more reliable and easier to hit well for me. I use my 3 iron off the tee more than I would ever trust my 3 wood. I don't have a hard time hitting them high and soft. The times I've tried a hybrid, I didn't have consistent shots and tended to hook it. I've hit more greens 225 yards out with my 3i than a hybrid. This summer, one par 5 in particular, I was 225 out according to the GPS on the cart. I jumped out telling my partner, "Ooh, perfect 3 iron." I dropped it five feet right of the pin and it bounced into a bank 15 feet past the pin. I would have less chance of pulling that off with a hybrid. But that's just me. I'm just not sold on hybrids for me. But to be fair, I haven't gotten fit for one either.

 

Thanks again for the reply.

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I've found websites listing a KBS Tour 1 iron length as 41.5. So I thought they did make one. Maybe the site info was wrong though. The site I ordered from started at 2 iron but didn't specify the raw length. So I'm not sure if it will come 41.5 or 41.

My apologies I miss spoke the KBS Tour DOES have a 1iron, I am used to seeing the C-Tapers which cap out at 41.0" a 2iron, that is my fault, I found one site that sells the 1iron shaft in the KBS Tour >> http://www.valuegolf.com/kbs-tour-steel-taper-tip-iron-shafts/

 

 

As far as what draws me to the club, it's not a regular 2 iron. It's that new Callaway X Utility Prototype which is hybrid-ish, but still plays more like an iron. I prefer irons to hybrids and even FMs. They are more reliable and easier to hit well for me. I use my 3 iron off the tee more than I would ever trust my 3 wood.

 

I don't have a hard time hitting them high and soft. The times I've tried a hybrid, I didn't have consistent shots and tended to hook it. I've hit more greens 225 yards out with my 3i than a hybrid. This summer, one par 5 in particular, I was 225 out according to the GPS on the cart. I jumped out telling my partner, "Ooh, perfect 3 iron." I dropped it five feet right of the pin and it bounced into a bank 15 feet past the pin. I would have less chance of pulling that off with a hybrid. But that's just me.

Just a couple of comments, simply because this is a golfing forum and I am only trying to help people get better.

 

First, I cringed when i read that you are more confident in one club over another. I personally don't have a favorite club in my bag, I like them all the same but my "go-to" when I really need to find a fairway or make a position play off the tee is almost always going to be the 4wood I carry. I'm a 3 to 4 HDCP from the tips at my home club, I know my distances well, I know when I miss hit things and I can't blame my equipment because It is all custom fit. I normally hear "i can't hit a 3w but I stripe a 2i" from mid handicaps or even high handicaps sometimes. I always ask the same question "WHY do you hit a 2i better then a 3w?" we might concluded a swing flaw, improper fit, or both.

 

I am assuming we are talking about the 2iron not a 3iron the distances don't line up with a S+ soft stepped for a 225 3i :) I think majority of people hitting a 225 3i like myself would be hitting x-stiff shafts straight in or maybe SS 1x. Anyways, I enjoyed the story but that doesn't prove to me ON AVERAGE the 2i is a better fit for you then a players 2hybrid. They both are hit the exact same way pretty much. I hit down on my 2hybrid like it was an iron, maybe it's a swing flaw or an attempt to "pick" the ball rather then trap it on the fairway and hybrid clubs that is causing a problem?

 

Again to each their own I am just making observations based on what I am reading where your game is at to make a better recommendation.

 

I'm just not sold on hybrids for me. But to be fair, I haven't gotten fit for one either.

Well, again a fitted club goes along way and trapping a hybrid as if it were a long iron helps a ton too. I think that is the common mistake with the fairway / hybrid clubs people try to sweep or "pick" them and if you are a digger in irons where you go down at everything it's going to cause problems. Look at Tiger Woods for example hit a 3wood you can see him take a little shallow divot even off a tee with the thing. You have to trap the ball on all clubs except the driver and a lot of people trap the driver as well.

 

Not saying this is you but I made a big golfing break through when I started being honest with myself on what my abilities were and where I needed to focus to improve.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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My apologies I miss spoke the KBS Tour DOES have a 1iron, I am used to seeing the C-Tapers which cap out at 41.0" a 2iron, that is my fault, I found one site that sells the 1iron shaft in the KBS Tour >> http://www.valuegolf.com/kbs-tour-steel-taper-tip-iron-shafts/

 

 

 

Just a couple of comments, simply because this is a golfing forum and I am only trying to help people get better.

 

First, I cringed when i read that you are more confident in one club over another. I personally don't have a favorite club in my bag, I like them all the same but my "go-to" when I really need to find a fairway or make a position play off the tee is almost always going to be the 4wood I carry. I'm a 3 to 4 HDCP from the tips at my home club, I know my distances well, I know when I miss hit things and I can't blame my equipment because It is all custom fit. I normally hear "i can't hit a 3w but I stripe a 2i" from mid handicaps or even high handicaps sometimes. I always ask the same question "WHY do you hit a 2i better then a 3w?" we might concluded a swing flaw, improper fit, or both.

 

I am assuming we are talking about the 2iron not a 3iron the distances don't line up with a S+ soft stepped for a 225 3i :) I think majority of people hitting a 225 3i like myself would be hitting x-stiff shafts straight in or maybe SS 1x. Anyways, I enjoyed the story but that doesn't prove to me ON AVERAGE the 2i is a better fit for you then a players 2hybrid. They both are hit the exact same way pretty much. I hit down on my 2hybrid like it was an iron, maybe it's a swing flaw or an attempt to "pick" the ball rather then trap it on the fairway and hybrid clubs that is causing a problem?

 

Again to each their own I am just making observations based on what I am reading where your game is at to make a better recommendation.

 

 

Well, again a fitted club goes along way and trapping a hybrid as if it were a long iron helps a ton too. I think that is the common mistake with the fairway / hybrid clubs people try to sweep or "pick" them and if you are a digger in irons where you go down at everything it's going to cause problems. Look at Tiger Woods for example hit a 3wood you can see him take a little shallow divot even off a tee with the thing. You have to trap the ball on all clubs except the driver and a lot of people trap the driver as well.

 

Not saying this is you but I made a big golfing break through when I started being honest with myself on what my abilities were and where I needed to focus to improve.

Good comments. I always welcome them too. I have a lot to learn. That's a pretty standard 3i shot for me unless I mis hit it. I didn't particularly flush that shot either. We have a short par 4 on an executive course that's 235. I told my buddy I'll be just short of the green with my 3i. Couldn't have called it closer. I almost chipped in from there and tapped in for birdie. My next club up was a 3w. I've never carried a 2i and probably wouldn't carry a regular one. This one is stupid easy to hit though. I have x flex in my irons and I don't feel like they're too stiff or boardy. I just felt like slightly softer in that club would be better for me. Oh, just to keep my distances in perspective, I'm playing at 5500 ft. not near sea level.

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That's why I'm not sure. What I've read from Wishon is that a hard step once is hardly noticeable by the golfer or LM numbers. Twice is when it just starts to be noticeable, even then not a full flex difference. I was thinking S+ would be good. Just not sure that's what I'll end up with. I don't have enough experience to know what to expect.

 

 

The reason Tom Wishon talks about stepping twice instead of once is because he sells a wedge shaft that's essentially stepped twice. It's his marketing to say stepping once either direction isn't noticable.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Good comments. I always welcome them too. I have a lot to learn.

Anyone that says they know all they need too in golf or in life is also the person that will never get any better at what they are doing. The brain is a muscle it needs to be worked out and re-defined often as anything else :)

 

That's a pretty standard 3i shot for me unless I miss hit it. I didn't particularly flush that shot either. We have a short par 4 on an executive course that's 235. I told my buddy I'll be just short of the green with my 3i. Couldn't have called it closer. I almost chipped in from there and tapped in for birdie. My next club up was a 3w. I've never carried a 2i and probably wouldn't carry a regular one. This one is stupid easy to hit though. I have x flex in my irons and I don't feel like they're too stiff or boardy. I just felt like slightly softer in that club would be better for me.

 

Oh, just to keep my distances in perspective, I'm playing at 5500 ft. not near sea level.

 

Okay now we are on the same page, I was thinking you were talking about sea level distances. I am in Durham, NC an elevation of about 403 to 404ft high (bellow 500ft). If the x feels a bit boardy it's probably a little too much shaft for you S+ is probably right up your alley like you said. I'm not sure exactly how far I would hit clubs at 5500 feet that would be amazingly fun.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Anyone that says they know all they need too in golf or in life is also the person that will never get any better at what they are doing. The brain is a muscle it needs to be worked out and re-defined often as anything else :)

 

 

 

Okay now we are on the same page, I was thinking you were talking about sea level distances. I am in Durham, NC an elevation of about 403 to 404ft high (bellow 500ft). If the x feels a bit boardy it's probably a little too much shaft for you S+ is probably right up your alley like you said. I'm not sure exactly how far I would hit clubs at 5500 feet that would be amazingly fun.

The X flex feels really good in my irons actually. I think they're a good match for me. I think my ball flight would be too high if I went softer. It sure was when I tried a 6.0 Project X Flighted set. I didn't like the X100s I tried in the MP 53s. But most of that was due to the light weight and resulting lack of feel to it, not so much the flex itself. I probably would be fine with X in that 2 Utility club. I just thought the softer flex might keep a higher ball flight. I initially ordered that shorter length without realizing that's not what I was after.

 

I may hit you up for advice when I'm experimenting next time. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

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The X flex feels really good in my irons actually. I think they're a good match for me. I think my ball flight would be too high if I went softer. It sure was when I tried a 6.0 Project X Flighted set. I didn't like the X100s I tried in the MP 53s. But most of that was due to the light weight and resulting lack of feel to it, not so much the flex itself. I probably would be fine with X in that 2 Utility club. I just thought the softer flex might keep a higher ball flight. I initially ordered that shorter length without realizing that's not what I was after.

 

I may hit you up for advice when I'm experimenting next time. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

The PX Flighted are in-between flexes in comparison to the non-flighted shafts the PX 6.0 Flighted is closer to a PX 5.5 then it is a 6.0 non-flighted. Either Way I have tried both and hate the feel of hte shafts. They feel like they are about 1/2 flex stiffer then they really are, I don't like boardy feeling shafts in the transition / load of the swing makes me over swing (swing harder) and out of tempo. It makes me feel like I really have to make a good move to load the shaft.

 

DG x100s are somewhere in the middle in terms of feel / load stiffness. If I recall correctly (it has been a long time since I have used DG stuff) the short irons CPM at a larger gap then the long irons they don't follow the Frequency Matching scheme that KBS and PX use.

 

KBS to me feels about 1/2 flex softer then it really plays in transition / load of the shaft. The X-Stiff will feel more like an S+ but the over all stiffness plays to an X-Stiff. I got fitted before the C-Tapers came out but my good friend now and builder / fitter since that day told me about the C-Tapers. The KBS Tour just launched a little high with too much spin for my liking but I loved the feel of the shaft so I pre-ordered the KBS C-Tapers, they worked amazingly well in the AP2s I had at the time. When I switched to my FG62 blades i had to drop the CT pout of the 3 and 4i went too low with too little spin. The KBS Tour XS brought it back to perfect again, I was happy as hell with it.

 

 

Just something to think about and note:

A too weak of a shaft where it might lead to a higher ball flight, it might also lead to hooks or the shaft flipping the head over into impact with a well timed release.

A too stiff of a shaft where it probably leads to a lower ball flight, it might also lead to pushes or fades, the shaft doesn't help the player with any tip movement at impact its like hitting a board.

 

 

I had PX 6.0 Flighted in my AP2s at one point a "draw" turned into a snap hook and a "fade" turned into a a straight shot or a baby draw, I would have to slice the ball to work it left to right at all. I could feel the head rotating without me doing anything in my hands or body to manipulate the face. i get the same feeling out of the DG s300 and PX 5.5 / 6.0. Where the PX 6.0 / s300 are not as noticeable as the PX 6.0 Flighted / PX 5.5 or r300 would be It is hard to work the ball from left to right on all those shafts there is some amount of flipping of the head in releasing the torque too soon or i get to impact before it has time to recover. Most time people experience flipping not over powering the torque of a shaft.

 

The proper flex can lead to more consistent contact and tighter dispersion, probably why I preach it so often to get fit for clubs if you are at all series about the game.

 

 

Another thing to think about KBS shafts are about 1/3 of a flex per step in SS and HS the taper tips. I had a chart of it somewhere of what different shafts come out to be, but can't seem to find it now...

KBS provides a visual chart on rough fitting >> http://kbsgolfshafts.com/downloads/KBS-club-fitting-guide.pdf

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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From jmiller 065 "Just something to think about and note:

A too weak of a shaft where it might lead to a higher ball flight, it might also lead to hooks or the shaft flipping the head over into impact with a well timed release.

A too stiff of a shaft where it probably leads to a lower ball flight, it might also lead to pushes or fades, the shaft doesn't help the player with any tip movement at impact its like hitting a board."

 

 

I read this and I was thinking kind of the oppisite. For myself any way. The softer the shaft, the lower ball flight because the shaft flexes and flattens out the club. The stiffer shaft does not flex as much and leaves the club face at more of a true loft position. I think this issue is all based on each golfers swing and would be decided during a fitting session. I personally like using "boards" and swinging hard!

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From jmiller 065 "Just something to think about and note:

A too weak of a shaft where it might lead to a higher ball flight, it might also lead to hooks or the shaft flipping the head over into impact with a well timed release.

A too stiff of a shaft where it probably leads to a lower ball flight, it might also lead to pushes or fades, the shaft doesn't help the player with any tip movement at impact its like hitting a board."

 

 

I read this and I was thinking kind of the opposite. For myself any way. The softer the shaft, the lower ball flight because the shaft flexes and flattens out the club.

 

Well I have a research study that goes into way more details then majority of people would like to know about the effects of the shaft during a swing. >> http://researchrepository.napier.ac.uk/3743/1/Nils_Betzler_PhD_Thesis_Golf_Shaft.pdf

 

Anyways that's a really long technical document and probably more then you really need to know or care about :)

 

 

Assuming we are talking about better golfers that have a consistent swing. The above statement holds true for the most part. With everything exceptions apply, but let me explain what can happen for better golfers as I personally have experienced them all in equipment testing / fittings.

 

Too weak of a shaft is likely to have TOO MUCH LEAD. LEAD is just the shaft bending towards the target near impact, the reverse effect of lag. When LEAD happens you get DYNAMIC CLOSE and DYNAMIC LOFT. The result is normally a high draw / hook that has a ton of spin, which in return will leave the player short left a lot of times. The other side of the coin is the player over powering the shaft and leaving it in the LAG position which results in a push or low cut most the time. The timing on the impact area is inconsistent in either case. The better player slows down their hands just before impact and that's normally when LEAD takes over, thus why the common miss for a weak shaft is a hook or draw + high balloons.

 

Too stiff of a shaft is going to not have any shaft movement coming into impact and a lot of players need that little LEAD to square the face. The spin is reduced by a lot, so if the hands slow down expecting LEAD (dynamic loft / close) and it is not present the common miss is a push, cut and short.

 

You have to find a balance that allows a little LEAD but not a ton at the same time you don't want it to have no lead either.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Well I have a research study that goes into way more details then majority of people would like to know about the effects of the shaft during a swing. >> http://researchrepository.napier.ac.uk/3743/1/Nils_Betzler_PhD_Thesis_Golf_Shaft.pdf

 

Anyways that's a really long technical document and probably more then you really need to know or care about :)

 

 

Assuming we are talking about better golfers that have a consistent swing. The above statement holds true for the most part. With everything exceptions apply, but let me explain what can happen for better golfers as I personally have experienced them all in equipment testing / fittings.

 

Too weak of a shaft is likely to have TOO MUCH LEAD. LEAD is just the shaft bending towards the target near impact, the reverse effect of lag. When LEAD happens you get DYNAMIC CLOSE and DYNAMIC LOFT. The result is normally a high draw / hook that has a ton of spin, which in return will leave the player short left a lot of times. The other side of the coin is the player over powering the shaft and leaving it in the LAG position which results in a push or low cut most the time. The timing on the impact area is inconsistent in either case. The better player slows down their hands just before impact and that's normally when LEAD takes over, thus why the common miss for a weak shaft is a hook or draw + high balloons.

 

Too stiff of a shaft is going to not have any shaft movement coming into impact and a lot of players need that little LEAD to square the face. The spin is reduced by a lot, so if the hands slow down expecting LEAD (dynamic loft / close) and it is not present the common miss is a push, cut and short.

 

You have to find a balance that allows a little LEAD but not a ton at the same time you don't want it to have no lead either.

 

I understand that. Thanks for the information. I am a newer player, not a better player, with a very unique, violent swing so most of the things that I have found to work for me are not considered normal for good players. The research you posted makes a lot of sense. Thanks again.

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I understand that. Thanks for the information. I am a newer player, not a better player, with a very unique, violent swing so most of the things that I have found to work for me are not considered normal for good players. The research you posted makes a lot of sense. Thanks again.

 

No problem, that's what we are here for is to learn new things :)

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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