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asbahhur

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Hi guys,

 

I need to get some new wedges this week but can't figure out which kind to get. Was considering being borig and picking up some sm4's, but I like the Cleveland's too. Any thoughts on which wedges are the best out there right now??

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Hi guys,

 

I need to get some new wedges this week but can't figure out which kind to get. Was considering being borig and picking up some sm4's, but I like the Cleveland's too. Any thoughts on which wedges are the best out there right now??

 

They're both good wedges so either one isn't a bad choice, personally I like Vokeys. They both offer multiple bounce options per loft which is a plus for fitting. Vokeys are cast but still offer a soft feel. Clevelands are forged so those will be soft for sure. I'm not sure if the new Clevelands are using the Tour Concept or if they went back to the Dynamic Golds. The Vokeys use Dynamic Golds. The thing about wedges is that they feel pretty similar for the most part in my opinion a lot of it depends on what feels better, looks better, and gives you more confidence. So the Cleveland could be great for some but then suck for others and this applies to the Vokey as well. Hit them both and see what you think will give you the best results.

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After using Clevelands for years (588, CG12, CG15) I have grown very partial to my Nike VR Pro forged wedges. I think their playability is just as good as the clevelands and they feel fantastic. They also come with S400 shafts which give them a heavier feel that I like. FWIW, I have the non conforming grooves and they put quite a bit of spin on the ball, not sure about the newer versions though.

 

I'm sure its been mentioned before, but wedges are a fairly personal choice, although with today's quality in all the different brands out there, you probably can't go wrong. The Carnahans reviewed by others look pretty nice.

WITB

 

Driver: Calloway Diablo Octane Tour, UST VTS Silver

Hybrids: 16* Taylormade RBZ Tour 16*, 21* TEE XCG-3

Irons: Adams CB1 4-PW, KBS C Taper Lite S

Wedges: Nike VR Pro Forged 52*, 58*

Putter: Odyssey White Hot XG3

 

Grips: Lamkin Crossline Midsize

Ball: Whatever I find, prefer Bridgestone

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I personally pick a wedge for GRIND and BOUNCE first then look at manufacturing process of forged / cast for firmness of the feel. I don't worry about the stock shaft as it always gets pulled anyways and replaced.

 

For me I picked Mizuno MP T-11 Wedges last season in the Black Nickle finish.

~ 60-05, 56-10, 52-07 bounces and lofts reflect what I normally do with each wedge, the finish looked great and the wedges are forged plus got great reviews for spin numbers compared to other C-C grooves, I liked the grind pattern on them so I was sold pretty simple pick for me anyways.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Im a big fan of Mizuno wedges. Ive played Vokeys and Ive played Clevelands and IMO, Mizuno's wedges are just as good, if not better.

Theyre very soft, they have sole grinds that make it easy to hit any kind of shot and they spin like anything else out there.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Basically shape. The R12s are round® & the 11s are a teardrop. Most of the older player line wedges were rounder.

 

It's just a personal preference.

 

Hit em both and you decide

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

 

I've hit Mizuno wedges and while I wanted to like them, for some reason I feel like I'm going to shank them. It's something about the look when I'm about to hit.

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I personally love my Mizzy wedges. I have two but only carry one on a daily basis, but then again I only carry two wedges in addition to my pitching wedge. I carry a Mizzy T11 56 with a DG Spinner shaft and a Vokey 64. I will be replacing the Vokey with a Mizzy before long, however, I recommend no matter what you get, you carry more wedges and nothing more that 60*(58* for higher handicaps.

 

I play everyday so I get lots of practice. I carried several wedges 52, 56,60 and 64 (All Vokey) for a number of years. Early last year I replaced the 52 and 56 with Mizzies. However, I found that I used the 56 almost all the time, but eventually settled on the 56 and 64 only. I added more long clubs in my bag. But once again, I get lots of practice.

 

Realistically, a high handicapper is not going to hit the greens from 200+ yards so it is more important to have wedges rather than the club you think you can hit the green with from 220. I can assure you that I make many more birdies on par 5's by laying up to a certain distance (75-85 yards) than I do by hitting the green from 200+.

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I liked the Nike wedges, interesting what they are doing with the sole widths this season. I also like the Callaway wedges that I am putting in the bag this season.

Ping G410 Plus Oban Kiyoshi Tour Limited
Ping G410 LST 3 Wood Oban Tour Prototype V430
Titleist U500 3 & 4 Oban Kiyoshi Purple Tour Reserve
Titleist 620 MB 5-9 Oban CT 125
Titleist Vokey 47* Oban CT 125, 51*, 55*, and 59* Shimada Tour Wedge Black
Bettinardi Studio Stock SS28

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If you like Cleveland wedges, you should look at Callaway. Callaway wedges are now designed by Roger Cleveland. The last time I purchased wedges I looked long and hard to find some that "looked just right" to me. I got the Callaway X-Forged and am very pleased with them.

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I used to play vokey, but now I've got Scor and you can't pull those things outta my hands

+1 on the SCOR's I'm using them in 42Ëš 46Ëš 50Ëš 54Ëš and 58Ëš

 

Before the SCOR I used Diamond Tour CNC Spin wedges with no complaints at all......they are probably the single best value in wedges: http://www.diamondtour.com/golf-components/club-heads/wedges/inazone-chrome-mist-cnc-spin-wedge.html

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:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
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:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

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What is the difference between the two wedges Mizuno has out right now??

Like R.P. said, shape. The Rs are more round and the Ts are a tear drop shape. Its mostly personal preference.

I used to have a mix of R-12s and T-11s and found the R to be easier to hit a variety of shots with.

Right now I play their JPX line of wedges and theyre great too. If a person had a set of cast GI irons, Id honestly suggest the JPX over the MP wedges because the JPX feels much more like a GI iron because it has a hotter face and is more forgiving than the MP wedges, which have a duller, softer feel. I also really like the triple-cut sole on the JPX. It makes it easier to hit a variety of shots without chunking or blading the shot. I had some reservations about the JPX wedges at first because they are cast but they are really great wedges for the right person (someone who plays GI irons and wants wedges that match the feel of their irons).

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Like R.P. said, shape. The Rs are more round and the Ts are a tear drop shape. Its mostly personal preference.

I used to have a mix of R-12s and T-11s and found the R to be easier to hit a variety of shots with.

Right now I play their JPX line of wedges and theyre great too. If a person had a set of cast GI irons, Id honestly suggest the JPX over the MP wedges because the JPX feels much more like a GI iron because it has a hotter face and is more forgiving than the MP wedges, which have a duller, softer feel. I also really like the triple-cut sole on the JPX. It makes it easier to hit a variety of shots without chunking or blading the shot. I had some reservations about the JPX wedges at first because they are cast but they are really great wedges for the right person (someone who plays GI irons and wants wedges that match the feel of their irons).

 

The leading edge, it's thickness and it's shape plays a reasonably important role in the short game for new guys as against very well experienced and practiced guys. Very slightly thicker and reasonably straight leading edges are helpful to the new guy who does not have a lot of practice time in pointing the chip and pitch. The thin and round leading edge definitely lends itself to more short game shot making but is also more demanding as to the accuracy of the swing, especially where the ground is tight but a bit too soft. In short, I think straight and very slightly thicker is more forgiving but can make some shots a little more difficult to pull off.

 

It's difficult to say which will work better for any specific person. You really need to look at what you have and identify the features that make life difficult for you so you can look for a design feature that might work better for you. It's personal and the decision is in your court.

 

 

Shambles

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The leading edge, it's thickness and it's shape plays a reasonably important role in the short game for new guys as against very well experienced and practiced guys. Very slightly thicker and reasonably straight leading edges are helpful to the new guy who does not have a lot of practice time in pointing the chip and pitch. The thin and round leading edge definitely lends itself to more short game shot making but is also more demanding as to the accuracy of the swing, especially where the ground is tight but a bit too soft. In short, I think straight and very slightly thicker is more forgiving but can make some shots a little more difficult to pull off.

 

It's difficult to say which will work better for any specific person. You really need to look at what you have and identify the features that make life difficult for you so you can look for a design feature that might work better for you. It's personal and the decision is in your court.

 

 

Shambles

Funny you say that because the JPX wedges, which are designed to be a GI wedge, have a more rounded leading edge. Also, as a 20 capper, I find a rounded wedge to be much easier to hit a variety of shots with.

Please dont misunderstand me, Im not saying youre wrong Im just saying its interesting.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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You can't go wrong with any modern wedge. As long as it's properly fit and suits your eye, that's what matters. Because wedges are one place where confidence plays a HUGE role.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Nice write-up on the JPX and great thought process. If more guys objectively looked at their game, clubs and how they best fit together like you do, they would probably shave some strokes.

 

But between the ego and just beein sheep, they make a decision based on faulty information & thought process.

 

 

Fairwways & Greens 4ever

:mizuno-small:

I think its difficult because the OEMs push the tour stuff and push whats used on tour but really for most people, tour stuff isnt whats right for them.

Im not so different. For a long time I tried to play MP woods, hybrids, irons and wedges before I got sick of playing so-so golf and went with JPX/MX clubs. Had my first range session today with the new sticks and it just proved to me that it was the right decision for me. Even a bad shot with the MX-1000s is a pretty good shot.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Funny you say that because the JPX wedges, which are designed to be a GI wedge, have a more rounded leading edge. Also, as a 20 capper, I find a rounded wedge to be much easier to hit a variety of shots with.

Please dont misunderstand me, Im not saying youre wrong Im just saying its interesting.

 

Please read my post again. I try to say much in as few words as possible but I'm pretty sure I specifically described, reasonably straight and very slightly thicker as elements that make a wedge a bit more forgiving. I also stated that the thin round leading edge definitely lends itself to more shot making. I'm not familiar with the JPX wedges but I presume their configuration in this aspect is somewhere in between.

 

I cannot claim to be right about this but I do believe the leading edge plays a more important part in wedge play than we give it credit for. If you don't have a lot of practice time some of those very pro wedge designs can have you chili dipping often. There is also the thing that new guys and not so experienced guys do not have all that many shots available to them so the added flexibility is not going to come into play or, if it does, the player won't know how to use it. It's good to have wedges that allow you plenty of flexible use but there are some trade offs in design so your decision needs a bit of a balance act.

 

 

Shambles

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They are almost impossible to find, but the Wishon PCF Micro Tour Wedge has some incredible spin and workability.

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I cannot claim to be right about this but I do believe the leading edge plays a more important part in wedge play than we give it credit for.

Where i think I know what you were trying to say here this is not an accurate statement. The characteristics of a club effect leading edge in a few different ways. Sole Width and bounce determine how high / low the leading edge will sit to the ground at a normal address position. Here is a little tech talk from our friends at scratch Golf >> http://scratchgolf.com/bounce.html

 

The sole width, bounce, grind (sole relief) are going to directly impact the playing characteristics of the leading edge. A super wide sole with with high amount of bounce with tend to slide and not dig. A small sole width with little bounce would tend to dig more then slide through the turf, sand, etc.

 

If you don't have a lot of practice time some of those very pro wedge designs can have you chili dipping often.

Hitting a shot fat is not the equipment its the person operating the equipment. I can hit a GI wedge just as fat as I can a "tour" wedge. Hitting a shot fat is normally either scooping (breaking down the wrists through impact), bad ball position (too far back in the stance brings the club into impact too steeply), some other improper set-up / technique from the player, a combination of them all lead to poor wedge shots regardless of the style of equipment. Your statement sounds like you don't have to practice with GI clubs a lot but the reality is you have to practice regardless of your equipment if you expect to play well.

 

There is also the thing that new guys and not so experienced guys do not have all that many shots available to them so the added flexibility is not going to come into play or, if it does, the player won't know how to use it. It's good to have wedges that allow you plenty of flexible use but there are some trade offs in design so your decision needs a bit of a balance act.

Well, honestly i would suggest learning not to automatically pull out a 60*, 56* for every shot around the green regardless of skill level. It is way easier to control a bump and run then get fancy with it. pull a 7i make somewhat of a putting stroke (but hit down on it), and you'll find your distance control is a lot better and you get up and down more often. People see all the fancy shots on TV that work out for tour players because the not fancy ones are boring to watch unless they go into the hole. I have always been told in terms of short game "Pick the least amount of loft that you can fly it onto the green and roll it the rest of the way to the hole". A flop shot should no be a go-to shot it should be a last ditch effort in other words a specialty shot.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Well, honestly i would suggest learning not to automatically pull out a 60*, 56* for every shot around the green regardless of skill level. It is way easier to control a bump and run then get fancy with it. pull a 7i make somewhat of a putting stroke (but hit down on it), and you'll find your distance control is a lot better and you get up and down more often.

Funny you mention that....the "video of the day" for today from Revolution Golf talks about exactly what you are saying.

http://www.revolutiongolf.com/home/video/2155622010001

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

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Funny you mention that....the "video of the day" for today from Revolution Golf talks about exactly what you are saying.

http://www.revolutiongolf.com/home/video/2155622010001

 

Yup this is a great video actually... "least amount of loft to fly onto the green then roll to the hole" is what it boils down to just easier to control that for most people then various swing lengths, angle of attack, face open, etc. Sorry for getting a little off topic with wedges in a way but, how you use a wedge also determines the bounce and grind that you would want on the club. So in a round about way it's related.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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I'm a 2 handicap so I think I would go for the T4 based on jut pictures online. I'm going to go test it side by side with the SM4 and the 588 RTG today.

 

I have the SM 4 and the T 11 from Mizzy. witht he spinner the mizzy spun more. I have sine repalce all the steel shafts with the i110cw steelfibers and I still see teh same result. I little more zip on the mizzy all playbale from differnt lies depending onthe bounce and such. the SM4s I bought were the M grind so I couldnt' adjsut them. I don't have an issue controling different shots though

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Where i think I know what you were trying to say here this is not an accurate statement. The characteristics of a club effect leading edge in a few different ways. Sole Width and bounce determine how high / low the leading edge will sit to the ground at a normal address position. Here is a little tech talk from our friends at scratch Golf >> http://scratchgolf.com/bounce.html

 

The sole width, bounce, grind (sole relief) are going to directly impact the playing characteristics of the leading edge. A super wide sole with with high amount of bounce with tend to slide and not dig. A small sole width with little bounce would tend to dig more then slide through the turf, sand, etc.

 

 

 

jmiller065,

 

I think the two points are combined in the instance quoted and I'm in reasonable agreement. However that is just one way of making use of the flange and, regardless that it can serve well enough in a fairly large number of instances, you can also take a slightly rearward address position destroying the design and swing a very shallow cut. This takes the bounce out of play and the sole width becomes irrelevant to a fair degree. Essentially you are trying to slip the club under the ball without taking a cut of the ground underneath it. Just bruising the grass at most if done successfully, for the purpose of a soft landing nearby without removing all the roll. I find it a great resource when I'm just barely short on a course that cuts it's fairways so tight they are practically greens but cannot putt into the green. A chip with a short iron can also works here but there are times my pulse demands more of a swing.

 

 

Hitting a shot fat is not the equipment its the person operating the equipment. I can hit a GI wedge just as fat as I can a "tour" wedge. Hitting a shot fat is normally either scooping (breaking down the wrists through impact), bad ball position (too far back in the stance brings the club into impact too steeply), some other improper set-up / technique from the player, a combination of them all lead to poor wedge shots regardless of the style of equipment. Your statement sounds like you don't have to practice with GI clubs a lot but the reality is you have to practice regardless of your equipment if you expect to play well.

 

 

Fat shots are always the player's fault. However there are conditions wherein you want to lightly scrape the ground or grass and just send the ball forward towards a specific landing in a low flight to roll towards the hole. These days many players resort to a high backspin low flight big bite kind of shot. I don't have the nerve for such an aggressive swing and prefer the softer approach because failure with such a shot can leave you on the other side of the green and still off the dance floor. A straighter and slightly thicker leading edge allows you a very small bit more room for error in scraping with regards to angle of attack or very slightly fat. It's not much but every little bit helps, and such errors can happen because this shot puts the ball slightly back and not the normal address. Besides, the short game more often requires an address that is not your norm so it's pretty much put together on the spot with no rehearsal.

 

Well, honestly i would suggest learning not to automatically pull out a 60*, 56* for every shot around the green regardless of skill level. It is way easier to control a bump and run then get fancy with it. pull a 7i make somewhat of a putting stroke (but hit down on it), and you'll find your distance control is a lot better and you get up and down more often. People see all the fancy shots on TV that work out for tour players because the not fancy ones are boring to watch unless they go into the hole. I have always been told in terms of short game "Pick the least amount of loft that you can fly it onto the green and roll it the rest of the way to the hole". A flop shot should no be a go-to shot it should be a last ditch effort in other words a specialty shot.

 

Most of my short game is bump and run with the short irons. However there are a fair number of conditions that do not allow sufficient running room for the low lofts and a soft landing from a high loft does reduce the run considerably. It is a pretty good resource where you cannot safely introduce enough backspin to stop the ball on landing, or just have not learned to control backspin enough.

 

My thinking here is that new guys and not so new guys have not always done the boring of learning to control their backspin enough to be able to call it up reliably at need. Shot making flexibility is a bit reduced by the straighter and slightly thicker leading edge but finding the right compromise for you can make a world of difference in getting up and down with a chance at up and in.

 

Like I've said several times, the selection is personal and finding the better wedge for you begins with getting an up close and personal examination of what you already have, learning how to use it and figuring out what you think you can do if only such and such was different. Learning wedges is not easy and there are many ways to use them for the same or equivalent results. I'm simply pointing out that the leading edge plays a more important part in wedge play that we often give it credit for.

 

 

Shambles

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A lot of the courses that I play dont allow you to bump 'n run. They have something that you must fly the ball over and have a tight pin location.

Yeah, given the choice I would choose a low, running shot but golf today is a game that is played more in the air and you need to be able to hit a high shot that lands soft with a lot of spin.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Well getting a little OT here but what the hell if it helps people understand how to use wedges and how to select wedge based on bounce.

 

I think the two points are combined in the instance quoted and I'm in reasonable agreement. However that is just one way of making use of the flange and, regardless that it can serve well enough in a fairly large number of instances, you can also take a slightly rearward address position destroying the design and swing a very shallow cut. This takes the bounce out of play and the sole width becomes irrelevant to a fair degree. Essentially you are trying to slip the club under the ball without taking a cut of the ground underneath it. Just bruising the grass at most if done successfully, for the purpose of a soft landing nearby without removing all the roll. I find it a great resource when I'm just barely short on a course that cuts it's fairways so tight they are practically greens but cannot putt into the green. A chip with a short iron can also works here but there are times my pulse demands more of a swing.

Well The main reason I talk about bounce and sole width being the most important thing on a wedge is that it is rare for a lot of people to hit a shot with a square face and full swing. 95% or more of the swings are 1/2 to 3/4 swings maybe with a slightly open face I would imagine assuming you are using a wedge properly anyways, there might be a rare occasion where the face is actually closed on a wedge (buried lie in a bunker). When the face is open you bring in the bounce, even if it is square in the turf interact after impact the bounce kicks in to determine the slide / dig combination. Vokey's wedge fitting asks for turf conditions you normally play in hard, soft, variety. Plus it asks for digger, average, picker style swings both help determine the bounce they will recommend for you.

 

I play a 60* with 5* of bounce for the tight lies / hard ground situations so it can get the leading edge under there a little easier and dig a little easier into the soil after impact to insure clean contact. I have a 56* with 108 of bounce for the softer lies and bunkers so it slides more and is less prone to digging in those situations, if use from a tight lie you might hit one thin or bounce the leading edge into the ball skulling it.

 

A lot of people make too long of a backswing and decelerate the head into impact, a big disaster as a result most the time. taking half the swing and making sure you attack the ball all the way through impact always gives better results. Can't be timid even on the short stuff. Probably why some people struggle with a bump and run it's a short backswing with an accelerated forward swing just like you should do with a putter.

 

Fat shots are always the player's fault. However there are conditions wherein you want to lightly scrape the ground or grass and just send the ball forward towards a specific landing in a low flight to roll towards the hole. These days many players resort to a high backspin low flight big bite kind of shot. I don't have the nerve for such an aggressive swing and prefer the softer approach because failure with such a shot can leave you on the other side of the green and still off the dance floor. A straighter and slightly thicker leading edge allows you a very small bit more room for error in scraping with regards to angle of attack or very slightly fat. It's not much but every little bit helps, and such errors can happen because this shot puts the ball slightly back and not the normal address. Besides, the short game more often requires an address that is not your norm so it's pretty much put together on the spot with no rehearsal.

A couple of things really:

1) ball placement too far back in the stance will limit the amount of error you have in making a good shot. It will reduce the window of "acceptable" contact. You''l hit more fat and more thin then you will good or perfect shots. It's a common mistake people make because people say "off the back foot" but the lower body is a bad reference, it should be "off you right eye" for RH golfers. Feet are just there to be support of the upper body and the head position / upper body posture shouldn't change regardless of lie. Just work your feet to stabilize the upper body on all shots pretty simple.

 

All good golfers rehearse their shots before making a swing, watch on tour guys try to find a lie that is about the same stance and grass thickness they will be making the shot from and make a couple practice swings to get a feel for it. Just like in a full swing where there should be a pre-shot routine, the short game and putting is absolutely no different.

 

 

Most of my short game is bump and run with the short irons. However there are a fair number of conditions that do not allow sufficient running room for the low lofts and a soft landing from a high loft does reduce the run considerably. It is a pretty good resource where you cannot safely introduce enough backspin to stop the ball on landing, or just have not learned to control backspin enough.

 

My thinking here is that new guys and not so new guys have not always done the boring of learning to control their backspin enough to be able to call it up reliably at need. Shot making flexibility is a bit reduced by the straighter and slightly thicker leading edge but finding the right compromise for you can make a world of difference in getting up and down with a chance at up and in.

Well if you find yourself in a situation that you don't have a lot of green to work with you missed your approach shot in the wrong place and had poor course management for the approach. Being short sided is the biggest error in golf, it's just too hard to get up and down consistently, it almost always requires some sort of fancy specialty shot. Flop shot is a typical play in that situation. The flop shot uses trajectory over spin to top the ball, there is obviously spin on it but trajectory does most of the work.

 

You have 2 situations where trajectory has to match green conditions. Really soft greens you can throw the ball in really low and it will bite hard without issues. However, if you throw a ball in really low into a hard green it will be off the back every time it won't bite. You have to send the ball into a hard green with high trajectory and high spin. If you send a ball into a soft green with high trajectory and high spin you'll get "over-spin" and backspin it way more then needed to hold the green and get your distance control.

 

I know what you are trying to say here so i sort of re-worded what I think you were talking about with running room and controlling backspin.

 

 

Like I've said several times, the selection is personal and finding the better wedge for you begins with getting an up close and personal examination of what you already have, learning how to use it and figuring out what you think you can do if only such and such was different. Learning wedges is not easy and there are many ways to use them for the same or equivalent results. I'm simply pointing out that the leading edge plays a more important part in wedge play that we often give it credit for.

Again I'm not sure I understand what you mean by leading edge plays any role in wedge selection. You can have a leading edge grind radius on any sole width and any degree of bounce on the club. The sole width and bounce will determine the playing characteristics not the leading edge and how versatile the wedge can be. Plus I might add that majority of good golfers of 5 handicaps or less play almost every wedge shot with some degree of open club face activating the bounce on purpose adding loft to get more spin and a higher trajectory. A square wedge shot is more the rarity then the sole width and bounce determine digging / turf interaction after impact. That's where digger, slidder, average comes into play for angle of attack a digger might have an AoA of 14* and would need more bounce around 14* to get the club to help them up out of the ground where a picker might be at 4* AoA and the large bounce would just cause them to blade the shot a little.

 

Some references to help understand wedges in general.

Vokey Wedge Selection Guide >> http://www.vokey.com/wedges/pages/wedge-selection-guide.aspx

Ralph Maltby Effective Bounce >> http://www.ralphmaltby.com/50

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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A lot of the courses that I play dont allow you to bump 'n run. They have something that you must fly the ball over and have a tight pin location.

Yeah, given the choice I would choose a low, running shot but golf today is a game that is played more in the air and you need to be able to hit a high shot that lands soft with a lot of spin.

 

You'll have a rough day if every one of your shots is short sided and a forced carry over something. This gets into course management and where to miss the approach shot in a good spot to avoid hard up and downs. More of an advanced thing that has nothing to do with wedges and is for a different discussion.

 

If you have a large sole width where when you open the face to get more loft it brings the leading edge off the ground significantly this shot becomes more difficult unless you are in a very soft lie. On a tight lie or hard surface it would be impossible to open the face and expect not to skull the shot with a very wide sole width and/or high amount of bounce.

Callaway Epic Max 12.0 (-1/N) @ 44.50" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-7 Stiff

Callaway Epic Speed 18.0* @ 42.75" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ-8 Stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro 23.0* @ 40.00" w/ Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 95 HYB Stiff

Sub-70 639 Combo (5-P) w/ Nippon Modus 3 125 Stiff, Standard Length, Weak Lofts (27-47, 4* gaps)

Callaway MD5 Raw 51-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 55-13 X-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 59-11 S-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Callaway MD5 Raw 63-09 C-Grind w/ Nippon Modus 125 Wedge

Golf Swing & Putting -- Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting)

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Jmiller065,

 

I'm thinking, from your posts in this discussion, that we don't really have a disagreement with the exception of the role a leading edge plays. I'm inclined to be content to leave the discussion as is on those aspects and focus on the role of the leading edge, if it suits you. I'm also inclined to believe we are deeper into the subject of what makes a better wedge than being OT. We are just dealing with specific details about wedges rather than enumerating brands and models.

 

New guys, not so new guys and old players who are no longer as steady and smooth as at one time are inclined to make an error or two that might not cost as much if the leading edge needs a more conscious effort to dig. If you look at the very old clubs vintage 50's or older, you should be able to find a hefty number with leading edges that are sharp enough to cut your leg if you move carelessly. For those wedges, destroying the design for a shot was something that needed lots of practice and confidence because the leading edge dug into the ground so easily. You might also see a few that had their leading edge ground down and rounded a bit, which was a trick the pro and top amateurs used to reduce the cost of swing errors.

 

These days I have not been able to see any wedges with sharp leading edges but I do see a few with edges so thin they might just about as well be sharp especially on modern overly watered and soft fairways, or the front of greens prepped for the pro tournament by being overly watered and softened to give the pro a more difficult course. It's rare that a top amateur or pro cannot deal with such simple hidden hazards easily but tournament organizers still like reducing playing options to better defend par from the onslaught of the very skilled players of today.

 

Every player has a personal level of satisfaction in the selection of his wedge and the features that give him confidence. There are trade offs in every wedge design but if the player is willing to pay attention, he won't be wandering lost in the maze of all the offerings.

 

 

Shambles

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