Long irons consistency

[sai-jin]

Hi

 

So just this week I started to really focus on long irons and the 2 times I went to the range, I was able to hit 3 and 4i by flattening my back swing (keeping my left fist low longer).

 

What I notice is that with the 3i especially, I can hit a bad slice or a push fade. 2 out of 5 times I hit straight draws, but I feel that I was holding my head behind the ball more when that happens.

 

What is actually the secret to hitting long irons? And did I do slices and block shots because I slide my entire body on the down swing which causes the ball to move back and club face open on impact?

[RoverRick]

Sai-Jin.

 

The secret to hitting long irons is, wait for it, don't. Unless you are an excellent ball striker who make great center of the club contact you are throwing shots away buy hitting long irons. So the secret to hitting long irons is to leave them at home and hit hybrids. Here is a link where we discussed this at great length, called, Leave you long irons and your ego at home. http://forum.mygolfs...-irons-at-home/

 

While you are reading hit this one also. about hitting fairway metals and hybrids better.

http://forum.mygolfs...ls-and-hybrids/

 

Of course there are times when you have to hit these clubs but here is a conversation about if it is always a good idea to hit these longer clubs. While they are easier to hit than long irons, it may not always be best. Call Are your longer clubs hurting or helping your scores?

http://forum.mygolfs...ng-your-scores/

 

Finally, here is a related topic. It is about playing the par 5's. Lay up or go for it? I want to score low.

http://forum.mygolfs...t-to-score-low/

[sai-jin]

Thanks for the links, that's a lot to read.

 

For me, I just want to be able to hit all clubs. And I find that the better I hit my longest irons, the better my driver and woods and hybrids are.

Plus I mainly use long irons for tee shots on par 3s, because I find them to be better at stopping the ball than using hybrids.

[JMiller]

As Richard (RP Jacobs II) said, without the actual swing this is guess work completely. I'll take a stab at what it MIGHT be but I could be way off.

 

So just this week I started to really focus on long irons and the 2 times I went to the range, I was able to hit 3 and 4i by flattening my back swing (keeping my left fist low longer).

 

What I notice is that with the 3i especially, I can hit a bad slice or a push fade. 2 out of 5 times I hit straight draws, but I feel that I was holding my head behind the ball more when that happens.

This sounds like you are in a Hybrid or Two-plane backswing position but to start the downswing the hips rotate first. This gets the club stuck behind you, the only thing you can do from a stuck position are:

1) Flip the head (likely to cause pushes when late or hooks when the timing is a little too early)

2) twist the shoulders open not flipping the head which will be OTT move likely causing a slice. You can also miss most your shots on the toe doing this.

 

 

It is likely that your hips are rotating instead of sliding first in the long irons, assuming you have arm lift in the backswing. Hips have to stay passive in the beginning of the downswing for Hybrid / Two-plane swingers.

 

 

What is actually the secret to hitting long irons?

 

And did I do slices and block shots because I slide my entire body on the down swing which causes the ball to move back and club face open on impact?

The only "secret" to hitting all your clubs consistently is to match the downswing sequence to the backswing position at the top.

 

I'm not sure how many times I have linked this now on this website but I'll do it again because it is VERY important to understand that you CAN NOT mix different swing models.

>> http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/01/guide-to-understanding-your-golf-swing.html

 

 

My best guess is that You have a major conflict in backswing sequence to downswing sequence.

 

Two-Plane (right drawing in the above link) ~ Almost all lateral slide in the downswing to counter the arm lift in the backswing.

 

Hybrid Plane (middle drawing in the above link) ~ A little Lateral slide THEN hip rotation, lateral slide counters the slight arm lift in the backswing.

 

One-Plane (left drawing in the above link) ~ All hip rotation to start the downswing with no lateral slide, there is not really lift in the left arm that needs countered with lateral slide.

[sai-jin]

You guys are good... I'll do some reading on those. Never knew about different planes until now.

[RoverRick]

Well. the true secret to hitting long irons is to not over swing. You should swing no harder than you do with a full wedge shot. If you do you get out of sinc and bad things happen. You have to allow the head to catch up. The bad news is if you do not hit your full wedge well, than you will definitely not hit the longer clubs well. Since a 3 iron goes at least twice as far as a gap wedge so any swing flaw will be twice as bad.

 

As far as understanding the golf swing, read The plane truth for golfers by Jim Hardy. Here is a thread where we talked about this a couple of months ago.

 

http://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/7975-dramatic-improvement-following-a-critical-insight/

[JMiller]

I completely respect Jim Hardy for his research and coining the term "one-plane" (left image in the link I posted). However, this doesn't mean everyone should drop what they are doing and overhaul their swing to become a one-plane person.

 

I completely agree with the following statement:

"Never make a major change in your swing out of frustration. Getting better takes patience. Always fine tune, never overhaul." ~ Bruce Rearick.

 

Going from a two-plane swing to a one-plane swing is a complete overhaul in my eyes the sequences in the backswing and downswing are not even close to each other.

 

A list of successful players in each model:

 

Two-plane

Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, Johny Miller, Dustin Johnson, Fred Couples, Tiger Woods (AM up until Butch)

 

Hybrid Plane ~ Generally Butch Harman is the one that teaches it notice the players all work with him or did work with him

Greg Norman, Adam Scott, Tiger Woods (With Butch and the famous 2000/2001 run)

 

One-plane

Arnold Palmer, Ben Hogan, Matt Kuchar, Justin Rose, Hunter Mahan, Tiger Woods (with Haney a little, and espesually now with Foley)

 

 

It is not the method that is in-correct it is always the application of the method.

[JMiller]

BTW, JM(above me) is one of those five & probably the only "non-teacher/Pro."

 

Thanks for the kind words Richard.

 

I am nothing more then a man that will try to gain true knowledge and draw my own conclusions and opinions on a given subject. Without my own conclusions / opinions I wouldn't have any true insight into a topic at all, it would be someone else's thoughts I am regurgitating and taking for face value.

 

I reference other people when I think it applies and it's not my own thoughts. That makes it easy for me to distinguish between my insight and another person's insight.

 

It has already been "proven" that I do not teach for a living. Nor do I have any "qualification" / "certifications" / "experience" on paper aka "my resume" to actually know what I am talking about

[RoverRick]

I completely respect Jim Hardy for his research and coining the term "one-plane" (left image in the link I posted). However, this doesn't mean everyone should drop what they are doing and overhaul their swing to become a one-plane person.

 

I completely agree with the following statement:

"Never make a major change in your swing out of frustration. Getting better takes patience. Always fine tune, never overhaul." ~ Bruce Rearick.

 

Going from a two-plane swing to a one-plane swing is a complete overhaul in my eyes the sequences in the backswing and downswing are not even close to each other.

 

A list of successful players in each model:

 

Two-plane

Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, Johny Miller, Dustin Johnson, Fred Couples, Tiger Woods (AM up until Butch)

 

Hybrid Plane ~ Generally Butch Harman is the one that teaches it notice the players all work with him or did work with him

Greg Norman, Adam Scott, Tiger Woods (With Butch and the famous 2000/2001 run)

 

One-plane

Arnold Palmer, Ben Hogan, Matt Kuchar, Justin Rose, Hunter Mahan, Tiger Woods (with Haney a little, and espesually now with Foley)

 

 

It is not the method that is in-correct it is always the application of the method.

 

JM

 

Obviously you have not read this book. This book does not advocate a one plane over a two plane or the other way around. He does not try to get you to change to any of them. What he does do is help you identify which swing you have and work on things that you should do and not do with your swing.

 

All he does is help you understand the correct application of the method.

[sai-jin]

Saw Tiger hit a 3i 267yds... wow...

[JMiller]

Saw Tiger hit a 3i 267yds... wow...

 

It was downwind, he probably hits a 3i around 230ish which is still big to say the least. The shot I think landed around 250 and rolled out to the back of the green.

[sai-jin]

I wish I could hit it that far and accurate...

 

But I think the most impressive is from 1962 , I forgot the golfer's name, but he hit a 2 iron on a par 3 and holed in one.

[JMiller]

Proper swing sequence + timing / rhythm = consistency / shot control. If you get your sequence right the length of the club won't matter.

[sai-jin]

Proper swing sequence + timing / rhythm = consistency / shot control. If you get your sequence right the length of the club won't matter.

 

 

Also need power / Swing speed for those longest irons, correct?

[JMiller]

Also need power / Swing speed for those longest irons, correct?

 

No, swing sequence + tempo = efficient power. You do not need to be a 300 pound body builder to hit a Driver over 300 yards. What you need is flexibility and proper sequencing / timing.

 

If you have ever tried to crack a long whip or even a beach towel rolled up so that the tip of the towel slaps a friend hard, then you generally know the idea of what a golf swing has to be like. You don't hit the ball straight form the top of the swing, the momentum slowly builds up until you get to impact and swinging through impact. You don't hit at the ball you swing through it. If you attempt to "force" the power you are likely to be inconsistent and actually lose club head speed.

 

Here is an interesting video that sort of explores how to get the most speed. Just remember that Arnold was a one-plane swing guy so his sequence might not fit your swing sequence. The one-plane swing calls for hard hip rotation to start the swing and all the way through the swing.

[GolfSpy WD]

No, swing sequence + tempo = efficient power. You do not need to be a 300 pound body builder to hit a Driver over 300 yards. What you need is flexibility and proper sequencing / timing.

 

If you have ever tried to crack a long whip or even a beach towel rolled up so that the tip of the towel slaps a friend hard, then you generally know the idea of what a golf swing has to be like. You don't hit the ball straight form the top of the swing, the momentum slowly builds up until you get to impact and swinging through impact. You don't hit at the ball you swing through it. If you attempt to "force" the power you are likely to be inconsistent and actually lose club head speed.

 

Here is an interesting video that sort of explores how to get the most speed. Just remember that Arnold was a one-plane swing guy so his sequence might not fit your swing sequence.

 

While I agree with you that sequence and flexibility are import, strength does come into play at some point. Otherwise the LPGA players would be hitting 300 yard drives too. The other end of the spectrum are the NFL players you occasionally see on TV who can bust out 300+ yard drives with not so great swings.

[JMiller]

While I agree with you that sequence and flexibility are import, strength does come into play at some point. Otherwise the LPGA players would be hitting 300 yard drives too. The other end of the spectrum are the NFL players you occasionally see on TV who can bust out 300+ yard drives with not so great swings.

 

Let me provide you a 5'10" 165Lbs man that bombs it and has won the REmax Long Drive Championship, this dude doesn't even look like he could bench more then about 180 Lbs.

 

 

 

EFFICIENCY is by far WAY MORE IMPORTANT then raw strength.

[JMiller]

So how do we be efficient in the golf swing?

>> Proper sequence of motion and tempo

 

Golf is a game of opposites, you swing smoother it goes further.

[sai-jin]

Fortunately I have no problem hitting 280 to above 300yds drives, it's longer clubs that I really have problems with.

I was nailing 3-4i decently last practice session so I decided to play a 7300 course from the back tees with the hope

of forcing me to practice those 3-5i .

 

The front 9 went pretty well, but then I start to notice that my form and focus went down hill. I started topping the long irons again.

 

THat being said, I'd assume if I learn to trust the smoother swing for long irons, it'll give me better chances to hit it well when I'm tired?

 

 

PS: I have this bad habit of dipping my right shoulder to try to hit the ball from the inside when I become a little tired and I start hitting pushes

and fades. Even though I recognize this when it happens, it's so hard to move my hips and shoulders when I flatten my swing on the longer clubs.

[JMiller]

Fortunately I have no problem hitting 280 to above 300yds drives, it's longer clubs that I really have problems with.

I was nailing 3-4i decently last practice session so I decided to play a 7300 course from the back tees with the hope

of forcing me to practice those 3-5i.

I like playing the tips personally it gives me the largest variety of clubs during a round. If you only have Driver, wedge the entire day it is not challenging at all. I think on the par 4s you should get anything from 130 yards to 200 yards into the hole, pick the tee box that provides that range with an average of about 150 to 170.

 

The front 9 went pretty well, but then I start to notice that my form and focus went down hill. I started topping the long irons again.

 

THat being said, I'd assume if I learn to trust the smoother swing for long irons, it'll give me better chances to hit it well when I'm tired?

Smoother even if it's the wrong sequence of motion is still going to net bad results. If you have ANY lift in the left arm at the top of the backswing, you HAVE to laterally slide in transition to counter the lift.

 

I am a Hybrid-plane guy myself, I have been experimenting a lot here at the start of the year between one-plane and hybrid see which one is more conferable and has less wear and tear on my body, I'm 29 getting a little older I'm not 22 anymore. My entire thought yesterday on the range for the downswing sequence, where i screw up the most was "Hand drop, fire". I had to feel like my hands got very low before my body started to really pick up speed into impact. The first 1/4 to 1/2 of the swing feels very slow.

 

The more lift you have in your arms at the top of the backswing (more upright) the longer you have to wait for the hands to drop before the hips rotate. If the hips rotate too soon you'll get stuck, when you get stuck you tend to flip causing all sorts of bad things to happen.

 

Stuck = Hooks, pushes, fat, thin

>> It takes a ton of timing to play like that and it's not efficient for control from round to round.

 

You have to figure out what your arm position is at the top of the backswing before you can ever think about the proper downswing sequence.

 

You keep talking about flattering out the long irons, if you have two different sequences between the 6-Wedge and 3-5 then you have a big conflict in that as well. You want to have ONE sequence AND ONE tempo (3:1 ratio, buy Tour Tempo great training aid), you just need to pick one-model and commit to that model regardless of club.

 

 

PS: I have this bad habit of dipping my right shoulder to try to hit the ball from the inside when I become a little tired and I start hitting pushes and fades. Even though I recognize this when it happens, it's so hard to move my hips and shoulders when I flatten my swing on the longer clubs.

I'm not sure what you are attempting to do here, if you flatten your swing the hips need to rotate hard pulling the shoulders in a rotation, if they both laterally slide in a one-plane swing you'll have big issues. If you have lift in the shorter clubs like I said keep it in the longer clubs just make sure to not "hit it from the top", let the hands drop before making the move into impact.

 

 

 

If you got a video or even a still picture of where you are at the top down the line, I could identify exactly what model you fit into. The camera should be lined up with the hands on your target line. Here is an article that is putting but the camera setup works well for full swings as well. http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/01/better-putting.html

[sai-jin]

Ok, I will try to take a new video or photo from the back when I'm with someone at the range.

 

I do have the basic thought of "dropping the club as if I have a table behind me" for 6-wedges and it's worked great, but I find it too steep for 3-5i, and woods.

so I'm pretty comfy with a range upto 185yds, since that's my 6i. Anything above that I miss the green most of the time.

 

But yes, I'll try to find someone to take a shot of my from the back.

 

Thanks for the infos, really learning a lot from you

[JMiller]

Make sure the hands stay a little more behind your right thigh as they drop on all clubs but espesually the 5i up to Driver. If the hands get too over the top of the ball at cast point you are going to come in very steep / chop down on the ball.

 

It could be as simple as the hands working too far over top of the ball, creating a very steep feeling into impact. Feel like they drop straight down behind you then the arc into impact is a lot more shallow.

[sai-jin]

Hi, I uploaded a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWD3FAJv6jw

 

I used a 4 Hybrid... forgot my 3iron.

 

1. Flight = Straight and small fade at the top . (wanted to do a right to left ball flight, but didn't happen)

2. Distance carry: about 220yds

 

I think that my old habit of lifting up and not releasing is on the video too... 2 of the things I've had trouble with whenever I try swinging at my top speed =\

 

Hope you can help with some simple tips to start with.

[sai-jin]

Make sure the hands stay a little more behind your right thigh as they drop on all clubs but espesually the 5i up to Driver. If the hands get too over the top of the ball at cast point you are going to come in very steep / chop down on the ball.

 

It could be as simple as the hands working too far over top of the ball, creating a very steep feeling into impact. Feel like they drop straight down behind you then the arc into impact is a lot more shallow.

 

Wait, the butt of the club / Lag has to be on the right side of my right thigh and no more than that? I tend to keep my lag upto right behind the ball it feels like.

[JMiller]

Hi, I uploaded a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWD3FAJv6jwI used a 4 Hybrid... forgot my 3iron.1. Flight = Straight and small fade at the top . (wanted to do a right to left ball flight, but didn't happen)2. Distance carry: about 220ydsI think that my old habit of lifting up and not releasing is on the video too... 2 of the things I've had trouble with whenever I try swinging at my top speed =\Hope you can help with some simple tips to start with.

 

Your Swing looks two-plane to me which I suspected it to have some amount of lift in it based on what you had been saying before.

 

Downswing Sequence For a Two-plane swing:

Hips MUST laterally slide towards the target to counter the lift in the arms (hands feel like they drop straight down behind you in the first part of the swing)

 

Here is probably the best Two-plane player to look at Jack Nicklaus hitting some kind of iron from Face on (top backswing, left)(cast point in downswing, right)

 

Here is the video that I took the screen shots from, you can see after the right still shot that his right arm extends in each frame past that into impact.

The left hands is BEHIND the right thigh slightly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7NOcf23IR8

 

 

Wait, the butt of the club / Lag has to be on the right side of my right thigh and no more than that? I tend to keep my lag upto right behind the ball it feels like.

 

All I mean by that statement you have quoted is that most people get their hands over top of the ball before they start the cast of the club. Lag is only just holding the 90* angle between your lead arm and shaft at the top into the cast point. It doesn't mean to attempt to increase the wrist angle, it might look like it increases but it's normally camera playing tricks on your eyes. If you ever watch someone perform close up "magic" tricks (like card tricks) the theory is the the is smoother then the eye.

 

Some people tend to hold the 90* angle way to deep into their swings, I'll see the lead arm pretty much on top of the ball at the cast point. If that happens then you will see all sorts of issues in ball striking into impact. If the hands stop pulling then the club is flipped, if the hands do keep pulling you might end up driving the ball straight into the dirt topping it.

[sai-jin]

Thank you.

 

Could you please tell me what my other faults are as well as my assets from what you can see?

 

Also, how much of a lateral movement is it? I assume even if my hips laterally move, I still have to try to keep my head behind the ball, yes?

[JMiller]

Well here is what I notice about your swing, this is not to say they are a bad thing just what I see:

 

1) I thought you feel asleep right before you started the swing. It was roughly 1.5 seconds from when your body stopped moving to when the club started back. I hope on the course that you are not thinking bout swing mechanics over the ball, that's sort of what it looked like in this video.

>> The range I'm okay with it on the course, you should have a pre-shot routine and just go with feel and expect your tendencies. Last thought is something like SMOOTH.

 

2) You have a strong grip, the club head at the end of the takeaway and at the top of the backswing is closed.

>> Dustin Johnson plays with a strong grip and so do a few others on tour so I wouldn't worry about it much, you have have to understand a neutral grips is easier to work the ball with.

 

3) The arms are still high when the chest has rotated to square (You Left, Tom Watson right) you can see the difference at the cast point.

>> Your hands work straight towards the ball from the start of the downswing, Tom's fall down to his side before they rotate towards the ball.

 

4) You have a chicken wing after impact going on here.

>> Your left arm and shaft pop out the left side of your body together, I should see shaft, right arm, left arm pop out from behind you to the left

 

Here is a video of Tom Watson in slow motion hitting what looks like a mid to long iron into a par 3. Just use the pause at the top of the backswing then right arrow on the key board to step through the downswing the rest of the way.

[sai-jin]

Thanks! Ah yes... the chicken wing... how do I get rid of it?

[JMiller]

You have to go from a V position at the cast point between the hands and forearms to an X position with the right arm crossed over top of the left arm.

 

I took a few screen shots of tiger woods, pay attention to where the golf glove is in the three images. The forearms go from a V to an X on the last photo.

 

 

If you can get the right arm to pass the left you'll have the shaft pop out first then the right arm, then the left arm.

[sai-jin]

Ok, I'll try that again.

 

The last time I tried doing that, I ended up hitting hooks.

 

But I think I have enough material to work on my current flaws for now.

 

Thanks for your time, JM.