Soggy, cold, and wet

[GolfSpy WD]

I'm curious how people handle the course during poor conditions.

 

Yesterday I played terribly. We went for 18 holes in 41* weather, and the ground was so damp you could feel yourself sink into it. I think I got into a funk early and lost my swing to the point where I couldn't find it again.

 

Looking back, I think what I should have done is gone up two clubs and swung easier. Distance just sucked due to a combination of soggy ground absorbing a lot of the impact and the cold weather.

 

Is there anything else folks here due in these sort of conditions?

 

(In retrospect, I played great-for-having-not-played-in-four-months on Friday with some great shots including one drive much longer than I hit in a while.)

[sai-jin]

I once played in a rainy, soggy, muddy and even a little flooded course...

A narrower stance usually works best for my type of steeper swing, but on that day I :

 

1. used wider stance

2. Don't swing as hard

3. Brought clubs that I don't really worry about if I break them / make them rust ($99 set from Sports Authority)

4. Wore shoes that have more pronounced spikes like the spider spike .

5. Wore surgical mouth cover (to prevent mud and worm getting to my mouth)

 

But that's the first and last time I'll play in those conditions.

[wbealsd]

Some days it's just better to watch the golf channel, I don't really think I'm going to do my game any favors to play under those conditions.

[JMiller]

I'm curious how people handle the course during poor conditions.

 

Yesterday I played terribly. We went for 18 holes in 41* weather, and the ground was so damp you could feel yourself sink into it. I think I got into a funk early and lost my swing to the point where I couldn't find it again.

Okay, well maybe it was more mental then physical. Bad weather conditions can cause you to lose focus on the process and shots you need to attempt.

 

Looking back, I think what I should have done is gone up two clubs and swung easier. Distance just sucked due to a combination of soggy ground absorbing a lot of the impact and the cold weather.

 

Is there anything else folks here due in these sort of conditions?

Why would distance suck from soggy ground unless you were hitting it out of a plugged lie? If you are striking the ball properly it's ball then ground, the ball is long gone before the soggy ground slows down the head, so if you were losing distance on soggy ground it's probably because you were hitting the ball a little fat. It being cold should effect distance more then the ground conditions.

 

 

 

 

If you feet sink into the ground bellow the ball you have to choke down on the grip to counter that, or at least that's the easiest way to counter it that I can think of.

 

This is how I sort of approach playing in soggy conditions:

~ Move ball a slight bit back in your stance, not a lot about 1 ball at most.

 

~ Pull one additional club for the distance.

 

~ Choke down on the grip to counter your feet being below the level of the ball.

>> like a fairway bunker you dig your feet in they are bellow the ball.

 

~ It is better to hit the ball a little thin then a little fat.

>> hitting something that is soft and the leading edge digs easy is a disaster this isn't a driving range mat that bounce or slide into a good impact.

 

NOTE: It is pretty much identical to a fairway bunker shot honestly, you just want to make sure you hit the ball first at all costs.

[GolfSpy WD]

Okay, well maybe it was more mental then physical. Bad weather conditions can cause you to lose focus on the process and shots you need to attempt.

 

 

Why would distance suck from soggy ground unless you were hitting it out of a plugged lie? If you are striking the ball properly it's ball then ground, the ball is long gone before the soggy ground slows down the head, so if you were losing distance on soggy ground it's probably because you were hitting the ball a little fat. It being cold should effect distance more then the ground conditions.

 

 

 

 

If you feet sink into the ground bellow the ball you have to choke down on the grip to counter that, or at least that's the easiest way to counter it that I can think of.

 

This is how I sort of approach playing in soggy conditions:

~ Move ball a slight bit back in your stance, not a lot about 1 ball at most.

 

~ Pull one additional club for the distance.

 

~ Choke down on the grip to counter your feet being below the level of the ball.

>> like a fairway bunker you dig your feet in they are bellow the ball.

 

~ It is better to hit the ball a little thin then a little fat.

>> hitting something that is soft and the leading edge digs easy is a disaster this isn't a driving range mat that bounce or slide into a good impact.

 

NOTE: It is pretty much identical to a fairway bunker shot honestly, you just want to make sure you hit the ball first at all costs.

 

Good point about it being the same as hitting out of a fairway bunker, but wouldn't the ground absorb some of the energy when the ball is compressed by the club? Same goes for the fairway bunker.

 

My distance loss could very well have been poor mechanics too, I couldn't get my backswing to feel correct for the life of me. Going to work out what I did wrong this week.

[Super Tuna]

Dude, this is Vancouver gold half the year.

 

As JM says above I club up and choke down. Moving the ball back a bit is a must as well. If it's cold, I also use a distance ball as well. The greens are soft enough to hold anything so I might as well get some distance back from the ball.

 

Also, if you play something with a sharp leading edge, don't even bother. Go find a backup set of sticks with a nice blunt edge or you're going to snap your wrists at some point.

[JMiller]

Good point about it being the same as hitting out of a fairway bunker, but wouldn't the ground absorb some of the energy when the ball is compressed by the club? Same goes for the fairway bunker.

 

My distance loss could very well have been poor mechanics too, I couldn't get my backswing to feel correct for the life of me. Going to work out what I did wrong this week.

 

Normally for me if the temp is 50-60* I need 1 more club already. Something bellow 50* is going to be probably 2 clubs for me more. I also tend to play a softer compression ball in the days that are bellow 60* and I have to play to help get some distance back

 

The golf ball is on the face of a club for less time then it takes to blink your eyes. It doesn't actually literally compress into the ground unless you have part of the ball under the ground. Here is some high speed video of wedges, irons and driver what it looks like at impact. The ball is off the face & ground before the leading edge ever makes contact with the ground, with the exception of a plugged lie. So as long as part of the ball is not submerged under the sand / soil then you should not have an issue with the ground taking away energy from the ball / club on a pure strike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dG9hb3_blo

[revkev]

Plus 1 to JMiller here - I've played tons of golf in wet conditions, cold or hot, when its cold I play it just like a fairway bunker, back a bit in the stance, at least 1 or perhaps even 2 more clubs and swing easy - you loose a little distance from the cold and if you miss hit it you really get hurt - Also if its wet and cold you'll loose some distance off the tee - less carry, less roll. The benefit is that the greens generally hold even with the lower trajectory approach shots and the greens will be slower. It's pretty much station to station.

[GolfSpy WD]

Thx for the tips guys

[RoverRick]

Well, they nailed it. I played 350 days last year, from 20* to 106*, from drought to swampy conditions. Changing clubs, surgical mask seem a bit extreme. although I did try some with a wider sole to see if that made any difference, it did not.

 

Soggy ground is played just like a fairway bunker, and temperature effects ball flight, but JM touched on what was probably the real problem. Because you were not getting the distance you want or expect, you think you are having the swing problems and making changes on the course. You may try to pick the ball rather than trap it. You swing harder to get more distance, but in actuality you tense your arms more and get less distance. So you have what would normally be 9 iron shot, that because the temperature is an 8 and the soggy ground is a 7 but now you are over swinging with tense arms and really could not have gotten there with a 5 iron.

 

The true secret of a soggy course is to realize you ain't gettin' Bubba distance that day. So you might as well just be ready for it and enjoy. Take one more club or more, and swing easier and think of it as an opportunity to work on your short game.

[JMiller]

Just as a complete side note: I personally think that hitting of driving range mats is the worst thing anyone can do for their game.

 

Reasons that mats can hurt a players game at any skill level:

 

~ Hitting a shot fat on a mat is going to still give a good contact / ball flight result, the club slides across the mat and hits the back of the ball like a pure strike.

>> If it were soil / sand then the leading edge would dig behind the back of the ball unless the ground conditions were rock hard.

>> Majority of players will not be able to feel that they hit mat first then ball, it's possible to feel that but most won't they see good ball flight / distance only.

 

~ Hitting off a mat that has no give can lead to wrist injuries, particularly for anyone that has a bit steeper angle of attack.

>> think about shock what gives first concrete under the mat or your wrist joints? Even hard soil that gives a little will be less impact shock to the wrists as it's not as much recoil back into the club.

 

~ A mat gives you a lie that you would probably never find on the golf course.

>> Even in the fairways your stance may not be perfectly flat, and the ball my not be sitting up on top of the grass like it's on a tee almost.

>> You have more variables to deal with even on grass practice ranges then the mats, you could practice some bad lies like hitting out of one of your old divots on grass where that won't happen on mats.

 

 

In short a golf mat is likely to give a player a false sense of security / achievement on improvement.

[JBones]

I play it differently than stated above. This is how I do it and why.

 

- Take a slightly wider stance

- Move the ball slightly forward in stance

- Take one to two more clubs

- Swing easy

 

When you play in wet conditions, the ball will slightly compress INTO the ground, draining energy. Moving the ball back (for me) causes a steeper wing, which forces the ball further into the ground. You really want to shallow out the swing, so that you are picking the ball clean. I use the same strategy out of a fairway bunker and I'm pretty damn good from a fairway bunker.

 

Again, find something that works best for YOU. I have a steeper swing and I swing hard, so the above works great for me.

[revkev]

Ack I've been having internet problems all morning. JBones does provide a nice alternative and right away I thought, "Oh yeah that technique will work out of fairway bunkers also - I use it if I need to hit a higher shot."

 

So now you have two possibilities both of which would work out fine - experiment some and enjoy.

 

Back to JMiller and mats - I agree for the most part but as with many things I think there is a time and a place - for me the time and the place to use a map is when I've lost my confidence - sometimes a practice session on a mat is just what the doctor ordered - lots of good shots hit there lead to being back to normal in the next session or round. Beyond a doubt it's easier to hit the ball off a mat than the turf. It's not as much fun but it's way easier.

[Blade]

People say you compress the ball into the ground or pinch it against the ground. Maybe that's a thought that helps them or a "feels like" thing, but that's not what happens unless you top it. The club face would have to be pointed down at the ground for that to happen and the ball certainly wouldn't go anywhere. The leading edge of the club and the loft separate the ball from the ground. The ball starts to slide up the club face until there's enough friction to grab the cover and impart spin as the ball rebounds off the face.

 

If the ball is settled down into moist ground, it would affect the launch of course. But if the ball is sitting clean, it won't get pushed into the ground with a clean solid strike. The video JM posted shows that the ball never gets pushed down or" compressed" into the ground. The compression is the ball against the club face only. Those super slow mo videos are pretty cool.

[JBones]

The video JM posted shows that the ball never gets pushed down or" compressed" into the ground. The compression is the ball against the club face only. Those super slow mo videos are pretty cool.

It is also being picked clean from what looks like a fairly shallow angle. There's no way you can take a huge divot like you see Tiger, Phil, and many others take and generate the spin, without pinching the ball against the ground and forcing it a little "deeper" into the grooves. If you have a shallow swing, like say a Kuchar, then it would look like the video above.

 

Kuch wedge swing

 

I'm not talking much, "INTO" was the wrong word to use, "against" would have been the better word. Again, it's all based on your swing........I'm a steep swinger with the shorter irons.

[GolfSpy WD]

It is also being picked clean from what looks like a fairly shallow angle. There's no way you can take a huge divot like you see Tiger, Phil, and many others take and generate the spin, without pinching the ball against the ground and forcing it a little "deeper" into the grooves. If you have a shallow swing, like say a Kuchar, then it would look like the video above.

 

Kuch wedge swing

 

I'm not talking much, "INTO" was the wrong word to use, "against" would have been the better word. Again, it's all based on your swing........I'm a steep swinger with the shorter irons.

 

My thoughts exactly. Look at a force diagram, the force of the club is coming in at a downward angle and this is transferred into the ball. By the law of physics, the ball must be held back somehow in order to not go into the ground, so the ground is counteracting with an opposite an equal force for perfect energy transfer. However, with soggy ground, some of this energy is lost as the ground buckles. It doesn't matter how quick it happens, but it does happen.

 

Now, whether the energy lost is significant or not is another question and more to the point. If you feel you can take the same club on a soggy day and get the same carry, then I'm interested in hearing that. If you lose distance, I'm also interested in hearing that. If you gain distance, please go to WRX .

[RoverRick]

If you are striking the ball properly it's ball then ground, the ball is long gone before the soggy ground slows down the head, so if you were losing distance on soggy ground it's probably because you were hitting the ball a little fat. It being cold should effect distance more then the ground conditions.

 

 

 

The ball sitting on soggy ground will not travel as far as sitting on firm ground period. For the same reason as a ball sitting on top of thick grass will not go as far as one sitting on a tee or on a perfect firm fairway lie.

 

The ball is sitting still. When the club strikes the ball the energy is transmitted into the ball at an angle. This changes of course based on the angle and the loft of the club but in order for it to travel up the club face it has to have some resistance from the ground. The more the resistance the better the energy is transferred back to the ball. Newton's Third Law of Physics "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Since the swing stays the same (which we know no two swings are identical, but we will say they are) and the ground that the ball is resting on is softer, the resistance is less, so the same energy is transferred into the ball, but the ground absorbs more of the energy therefore the ball will not travel as far.

 

To prove this take a towel and fold it several times and then hit the golf ball off a firm lie and then hit the same shot with the ball off the towel. It does not travel as far.

[Blade]

My point is, the face of the club is pointing up, the leading edge comes in below the equator of the ball. Yes the path is down as it should be. But how much? 6°? 12°? That's one to two minutes on a clock face. It's not like you're chopping down on it. The loft is still pointed up far far more than your attack angle even with a "steep" swing. Inertia is what causes compression. A body at rest tends to stay at rest. You can put the ball on a tee a 1/4 inch off the, ground and still get compression and spin. The driver compresses the ball more than any other club. It's the speed of the club colliding with a stationary object that creates the compression.

 

It can feel like you're pinching the ball against the ground. But that's not what's actually happening.

[RoverRick]

My thoughts exactly. Look at a force diagram, the force of the club is coming in at a downward angle and this is transferred into the ball. By the law of physics, the ball must be held back somehow in order to not go into the ground, so the ground is counteracting with an opposite an equal force for perfect energy transfer. However, with soggy ground, some of this energy is lost as the ground buckles. It doesn't matter how quick it happens, but it does happen.

 

Now, whether the energy lost is significant or not is another question and more to the point. If you feel you can take the same club on a soggy day and get the same carry, then I'm interested in hearing that. If you lose distance, I'm also interested in hearing that. If you gain distance, please go to WRX .

 

Oops I wrote my reply before I saw this. Now I feel like a me too kind of guy. Darned the luck, I hate that feeling.

[GolfSpy WD]

My point is, the face of the club is pointing up, the leading edge comes in below the equator of the ball. Yes the path is down as it should be. But how much? 6°? 12°? That's one to two minutes on a clock face. It's not like you're chopping down on it. The loft is still pointed up far far more than your attack angle even with a "steep" swing. Inertia is what causes compression. A body at rest tends to stay at rest. You can put the ball on a tee a 1/4 inch off the, ground and still get compression and spin. The driver compresses the ball more than any other club. It's the speed of the club colliding with a stationary object that creates the compression.

 

It can feel like you're pinching the ball against the ground. But that's not what's actually happening.

 

Fair point and good analogy.

[JMiller]

Okay, think if this simply, a golf club has loft on it, positive amount of left, even wit ha -10* AoA on a 1 iron it would still result in a positive amount of dynamic loft at impact. If the moving force is the club the ball compresses against the club at a positive angle and recovers in the angle of the compression. The energy from the club compressing the ball is recovered at the positive angle of the dynamic loft at impact, the soil conditions would have nothing to do with it on a prefect lie.

 

The only physical way to have the ball at any point pinch into or against the ground is if some portion of the ball sits bellow the level of the dirt surrounding it, which would be some degree of plugged lie. If you look at any tee shot in slow motion tour players hit down on the ball it compresses goes up and then the divot happens later. Most of the time you get more distance when the ball is on a tee then you would on the ground because you can control the lie. If the ball was being pinched into the ground would would see the ball compress on the club side AND the ground side. You only see the ball compress on the club side on the tee and good lies.

 

Here is a video of Tiger hitting a 2iron at impact, you can't tell me he is not hitting down on this thing, and it's sure as hell never against or into the ground to produce the compression and flight as it's sitting on a tee and the divot starts a good 2" in front of the tee and ball is off the face and heading upward.

 

 

Yes you want to hit down on your club and let the loft do it's job that's how compression / distance actually works a -5AoA on a 60*wedge could result in the club having something like 55* of loft at impact.

[RoverRick]

If you freeze that video at impact (4 seconds into it) it is plain to see that he is hitting that ball high on the face of the club. The top of the club is actually below the top of the ball. This would not be possible if it were on the ground so in this case the ground has no effect on the ball because it is being held by the tee. Since the ground is not in contact it absorbs no energy and the tee breaks absorbing a minimal amount of energy therefore all energy is transferred to the ball. This is why the ball travels farther when on the tee than on the ground.

[RoverRick]

One more thing on playing in wet conditions. Water is an incompressible liquid. The groves are on a club to to interact with the ball cover to create spin. The ball is designed to spin and the dimples and cover help to create the ideal spin to keep the ball in the air. Tons of dollars go into the cover and dimple design making the spin just right off each club. The water on a golf ball lubricates the surface and keeps from generating the proper spin. Too much spin or too little spin and the ball will not fly the same distance as with the perfect amount of spin.

 

This is like hitting out of the rough. You never know how much spin will be on the ball because the grass blades contain water. It may spin alright, or a come out as a flyer with no spin.

 

The aggressive grooves of a by-gone era over came this to some degree, but the USGA in it's infantile wisdom has seen fit to outlaw these grooves.

[Blade]

Absolutely Rick!

[Bubba Long]

Just as a complete side note: I personally think that hitting of driving range mats is the worst thing anyone can do for their game.

 

Reasons that mats can hurt a players game at any skill level:

 

~ Hitting a shot fat on a mat is going to still give a good contact / ball flight result, the club slides across the mat and hits the back of the ball like a pure strike.

>> If it were soil / sand then the leading edge would dig behind the back of the ball unless the ground conditions were rock hard.

>> Majority of players will not be able to feel that they hit mat first then ball, it's possible to feel that but most won't they see good ball flight / distance only.

 

~ Hitting off a mat that has no give can lead to wrist injuries, particularly for anyone that has a bit steeper angle of attack.

>> think about shock what gives first concrete under the mat or your wrist joints? Even hard soil that gives a little will be less impact shock to the wrists as it's not as much recoil back into the club.

 

~ A mat gives you a lie that you would probably never find on the golf course.

>> Even in the fairways your stance may not be perfectly flat, and the ball my not be sitting up on top of the grass like it's on a tee almost.

>> You have more variables to deal with even on grass practice ranges then the mats, you could practice some bad lies like hitting out of one of your old divots on grass where that won't happen on mats.

 

 

In short a golf mat is likely to give a player a false sense of security / achievement on improvement.

 

 

Only time I will ever play off the mat is at TopGolf. That place is awesome!!

[Kor.A.Door]

To make it as simply as I think it is, when it is wet the ball doesn't go as far, period. Does it really matter why. The physics of the swing, the transfer of energy, whatever, add a club or 2 and have fun, your score is going to suffer big time. Find something that works if you can and go with it. It doesn't have to as complicated as what I have read in this thread. It could be 90 degrees out and if it is wet, you will have to club up, that's just the way it is, doesn't matter why, it just is what it is.