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Your point is well taken and I considered it as I wrote - That's why I wish MGS would settle this thing with a test.

 

In the end just take the stupid balls out on the course and try them for yourself. I've done this so many times its ridiculous. What do I hope to find? The magic ball that goes 25 yards farther. Where will I find it? In the gym - I've had some results there already.

 

As far as on course testing its the same thing every single time - I don't know why I bother any more.

 

The argument I never see advanced and one that I think might be quite valid visa a vie a tour ball vs. the midline ones is that additional spin does introduce another factor into the mix around the green. It's great when you know how to apply it consistently so that it can be used - it can be a problem if you don't. I'd like to see that tested as well.

 

Are the MGS guys listening?

 

A generic ball test would really be nice about now. This topic comes up all the time.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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BTW I miss-spoke earlier- i meant to say off the tee AND with the irons... obviously that's the most important thing...

 

 

Not according to Srixon. :)

 

I do appreciate your response and would love to see the results - I think that they will say that there is no difference in spin rates off the driver for a particular driver or very little difference, very little difference with middle irons, more spin on the tour ball starting around the 8 iron with the gap widdening as they get closer to the green.

 

I've seen enough tests to believe that's what you'll find.

 

Now now that all applies to an individuals game is another question altogether.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Rev,

MGS did do a test on spin off of a wedge, I believe. Might've been a groove wear test though. I know I mentioned it to Colt once before about seeing if they could do a labs on groove wear and it's effect on spin. So that might've been what was tested.

 

Regardless, one big thing about Titleist is that the guy that does most of their testing is scientific about it and used to be independent (now their head of research in ball development) and that's Dr. William Gobush (aka Bill Gobush). He has several publications from his independent days that are available if you have a password through a college to get to the places the research is located. I used to have a copy of the PDF file from such publication that was related to groove spin and the performance of the golf ball at impact that related to how grooves effected spin. That article was called "Spin and the Inner Working of a Golf Ball" that was published in Golf The Scientific Way as a compilation of both he and Alistair Cochran's work. Bill is considered an expert in measuring and modeling golf ball behavior. That article talks about the relationship of both the cover material and the core material and how variances can effect spin, etc. (And if any of you MGS guys have access to that PDF, it'd be AWESOME if you guys could post it here, as it'd answer lots of questions that all of us have about golfballs, etc. LOL. And you'd be the only site on the net that has published it. Plus it's been a long time since I've read it and it's always good to refresh the old memory bank, lol).

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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I notice when my highcapper friends are playing tour balls. I get so used to seeing them hit the green and roll another 20' I am shocked when one hits the short that checks up near the hole.

 

I always look and they will be playing some Pro V they found and will play great for a few holes then lose it and then I can tell when that ball is gone.

And they CAN'T?? - ROFLMAO!! :P

What's In the Bag

Driver - :callaway-small: GBB 

Hybrids  :cleveland-small: Halo XL Halo 18* & :cobra-small: T-Rail 20*

Irons  :cobra-small: T-Rail 2.0

Wedges :ping-small: 60* TS / SCOR 48* 53* 58*

Putter     :scotty-small:

Ball :callaway-logo-1:

Bag Datrek DG Lite  

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I like playing proV1's, but I am the guy who will play the same two balls for as many rounds as I can. They get so scuffed up and dirty you can hardly tell what kind of balls they are any more hehehe

But, they still seem to work no matter how hacked up they get... So, I find that even though they are a bit expensive at first, after the fourth round, they are a bargain...

 

:titleist-small: TSr2 on tensi blue stiff

:cobra-small: Speedzone 3-wood on Tensi blue S

:callaway-logo-1: Epic Max 5 and 7 woods on HZRDUS  Reg flex

:callaway-logo-1: Paradym 9 wood on HZRDUS reg flex

:taylormade-small: P770 / P790 combo set on Ventus R-6 shafts 6-AW

:mizuno-small:  T22 Denim Copper 54°, 58° on Kinetic X Trajectory 

:EVNROLL: ER3 or,

:edel-golf-1: E.A.S. #4   (“Fang” or “Adele”)
 

:titelist-small: ProV1x, or, Maxfli Tour X

:callaway-small: .Org 14 cart bag

Adidas Tour 360 , or Sketcher shoes

 

 

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I like playing proV1's, but I am the guy who will play the same two balls for as many rounds as I can. They get so scuffed up and dirty you can hardly tell what kind of balls they are any more hehehe

But, they still seem to work no matter how hacked up they get... So, I find that even though they are a bit expensive at first, after the fourth round, they are a bargain...

 

That's true but to reiterate if you want to play tour level balls you can find them for mid-range ball prices - you just have to be willing to play a model that's been discontinued and is on clearance or one of the Dick's models that have received great reviews here.

 

Back to Rookies post - you directed me to that research a number of years back and I read it - very complex of course - I'm not sure that it gives us exactly what we want for this discussion but its a great, interesting and provacative read.

 

I think there's data out there that proves Srixon wrong - It's pretty consistent across the other OEM's even if they are only testing their product. The tour level ball and the midline ball produce similar spin and launch characteristics off the driver - within 200 RPM's per golfer - The midline ball actually spins a bit more with the middle irons than the proline ball - again this is minimal - once you get to the 8 iron and down the two balls seperate to the point that there is no comparison on half wedge shots.

 

In my own testing I've yet to find a midline ball that I can hit as far as a tour level ball - this is relevent to middle handicappers because I have a moderate swing speed (mid 90's at best.) Many mid-handicappers have a faster swing speed than I do and if we both hit our best drive they will knock it past me - I'm guessing my average drive is longer than there's because I'm way more consistent - that and my short game are why I'm a low handicapper. Now mind you this distance gap off the tee is minimal - 3 to 5 yards - however it proves the point at least for my game. I'm no more or less accurate with the tour ball off the tee but I would emphasize that I am very accurate off the tee - I average 11 fairways a round. I also struggle with too much spin off the driver although my current driver seems to have helped with that problem immensly (that's what a $500 fitting will buy you - thanks Taylor Made and MGS.)

 

It doesn't matter what ball I use in the middle part of the bag - they all perform about the same, stop the same or don't depending upon the conditions of the greens I'm playing on. And of course there is no comparison the closer I get to the green where I make my living so to speak.

 

Having written all that I could see where a midline ball might be beneficial for some golfers depending upon their game (not their budget). It would eliminate a whole range and choice process of shots around the green - you would always have to either play for the ball to run out or use trajectory (flop type shots) to stop it quicker.

 

That's why I'm writing that I think I know the answers the data will show but how that data applies to an individuals game is another matter altogether. There would be an adjustment period in the short game for someone who is not accustomed to playing a tour ball.

 

Oh did I mention I will not use a Srixon/Cleveland product until they have the courtesy to reply to one of my emails? I will also never purchase anything from Jim Mclean - I had a debate about a matter four or five years ago that sent me on a quest which included sending emails to Frank Thomas, Dave Pelz and Mclean - Thomas and Plez both replied same day, Thomas called me himself and I spoke to a Pelz guy for over an hour - didn't hear boo from Mclean.

 

In my world customer service matters.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I don't have the years of experience that many of you do, this being the start of my 3rd year playing. I took some lessons at the start of last season, and got my scoring average down to the mid-90's. I'm taking another series of lessons, and am really excited with the results so far. The half-life of a golf ball in my possession used to be about 2 holes when I first started playing, so I played whatever I found or with whatever sleeve I got at an outing. Yikes. Now that I can play a couple of rounds with the same ball, I've ventured into playing a better quality ball, and I have to say that I agree with revkev that driver mistakes are no different than with the cheap ball, but the short game is where the high quality ball shines.

 

I played at Long Island National this past Sunday with a friend (he's around a 10 HC), and he hits his drives past me consistently (his Ping i20 is much longer than the r7 Quad he had last year). Well, it was so windy and cold at 7:30 a.m. when we went to sign in on Sunday, that the first thing the guy on duty in the pro shop asked when we walked in was whether we wanted to cancel. Well, we were going to play of course, and it was so wide open that they even let us walk. :D Anyway, my friend decided to buy the cheapest box of balls in the pro shop (15 Pinnacles) so he wouldn't be donating his Titleists to the water and fescue. Being less intelligent, I decided to play my Penta TP5's. I did lose two in the water (11 and 13), but on the holes where we were both in the fairway, I was getting it past him by quite a bit. It was hard spinning anything on the greens, but his loss of distance was quite noticeable.

<p>In my bag: Ping G LS Tec 9* Tour 65 Stiff, Cobra F8 3-4 wood HZRDUS Yellow 6.0, Calloway 21* X Forged Utility iron (steel stiff), Ping G30 white dot 4-9 Stiff 110 gm KBS tours  Scor 48,52,56,60 Wedges, Nike Method Core MC3</p><p>

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Crikey you don't want to wind revkev up do you golf manufacturers? Customer service is damned important though and we should be tough on poor performance.

Interestingly I'm a mid 90mph swing speed player off 9 and I see little difference off the tee with most balls (more run in dry conditions with certain balls, possibly due to less spin - who knows).

As I said a few pages ago its a formula for each player of playing characteristics versus price; I use Bridgestone e6's at the moment because I like the way they play and they're costing me less than 20 bucks (yep bucks I'm trying to fit in!) a dozen. They last 27 holes minimum (when not in ponds, forests, car parks etc) as well and are playable at the end of that. With the I20 irons they spin a bit as well!

But it's taken me years to find an alternative to tour balls I'm happy with in the winter; hated nxt tours, never liked srixons, kind of liked Wilsons when I could get them.

A thought for you; how many average to poor players hit the ball past the flag? Not many I reckon, they are normally short. More spin going to help them? I doubt it - perhaps a ball that releases a few feet more might help?

Rest in peace long sticks - I'll remember you

 

TM Burner Superfast 2.0 TP Regular

TM RBZ Stage 2 Fairway 14.5 stiff

Adams Blue Hybrid No. 3 stiff

Adams Super xtdHybrid 21.5 Stiff

 

Ping G30 4 and 5 Iron - Regular CFS Shaft

Ping i25 6 - PW Regular CFS Shaft

TM Y Groove Gap Wedge

Cleveland CG10 Sand Wedge

 

PingTR Piper Putter, adjustable shaft, SuperStroke Fatso

 

Titleist StaDry Cart Bag

 

Motocaddy S3 Pro Trolley

 

Foot Joy City, Adidas Boost Boa and Adidas Superstar shoes

 

Pro V1x in the summer, Titleist Velocity in the winter.

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Crikey you don't want to wind revkev up do you golf manufacturers? Customer service is damned important though and we should be tough on poor performance.

Interestingly I'm a mid 90mph swing speed player off 9 and I see little difference off the tee with most balls (more run in dry conditions with certain balls, possibly due to less spin - who knows).

As I said a few pages ago its a formula for each player of playing characteristics versus price; I use Bridgestone e6's at the moment because I like the way they play and they're costing me less than 20 bucks (yep bucks I'm trying to fit in!) a dozen. They last 27 holes minimum (when not in ponds, forests, car parks etc) as well and are playable at the end of that. With the I20 irons they spin a bit as well!

But it's taken me years to find an alternative to tour balls I'm happy with in the winter; hated nxt tours, never liked srixons, kind of liked Wilsons when I could get them.

A thought for you; how many average to poor players hit the ball past the flag? Not many I reckon, they are normally short. More spin going to help them? I doubt it - perhaps a ball that releases a few feet more might help?

 

Right on point IMO - if you can't force yourself to take more club why not get the ball to do it for you with the release. Frankly that was an issue I had in the old balata days - I was used to the ball releasing and when I'd switch to balata I'd never get it to the pin. Now its normally hit and stop so I just need to know my carry distances and I'm good to go.

 

At any rate I really do mean it when I write that there are reasons beyond distance or performance off the driver to select a non-tour ball and there are factors that each person must consider when he or she selects a ball. I've actually learned that by carefully considering what our mid-handicappers have written on these ball threads. By now I think I can predict what any ball I buy will do based on its construction - what I can't say is whether its the best ball for Westy or anyone else here - only you know that - if you tell me what you want your ball to do I can make a recommendation or two but you're still going to have to try it for yourself. My issue is with a statement that makes no sense based on data I've seen and experience I've had trying balls out for myself. No one here seems to be doing that. Srixon is and even though I like Titleist and TMag's balls and they are always responsive they are in a way too by making the claim that their Tour ball is for everyone. Westy gives a scenario where its not or at least a compelling reason why its not. I'll add one too - what if my course primarily allows for bump and runs around the green - while you can play those shots with tour balls they are easier to play with non-tour balls.

 

 

 

Have to say I'm kind of surprised that a Pro VI would go farther than a Pinnacle under any conditions - perhaps your friend was having a bad hair day. Regardless welcome to the forums LI Rich - a neighbor from across the Sound - I grew up in CT.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Have to say I'm kind of surprised that a Pro VI would go farther than a Pinnacle under any conditions - perhaps your friend was having a bad hair day. Regardless welcome to the forums LI Rich - a neighbor from across the Sound - I grew up in CT.

 

 

Thank you for the welcome! Well, it could be that I'm really just fondly remembering a drive I got into on #10 and one or two others that I hit pretty well. As you might guess, his fairway percentage is higher than mine, and if we do happen to both hit a fairway on the same hole, it's not fair to say that we both had the same quality contact. It's pretty clear you've payed close attention to this over the years, so I won't contend my experience, viewed through the rose-colored glasses that have kept me coming back despite my poor play, are robust evidence of anything important. I was just happy to be hitting last on a few second shots! :-)

<p>In my bag: Ping G LS Tec 9* Tour 65 Stiff, Cobra F8 3-4 wood HZRDUS Yellow 6.0, Calloway 21* X Forged Utility iron (steel stiff), Ping G30 white dot 4-9 Stiff 110 gm KBS tours  Scor 48,52,56,60 Wedges, Nike Method Core MC3</p><p>

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