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Sand Baggers


Wannabegolfer67

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This past weekend we had our "Big" tournament for the year at my local course. The format is a 2-man best ball and it is flighted according to handicap.

 

Being a current 23.5, I am in the 6th and final flight which is intended for high-cappers like myself.

 

There are these two fellows that have a reputation as sand baggers as they are both known to shoot in the mid to low 80's but somehow when tournament time comes around they have a handicap similar to mine.

 

What I suspect is that they are only turning in there worst possible scores, I have discussed this with the club pro and have basically been told there is nothing he can do about it.

 

To cut to the chase, guess who won the 6th flight.

 

I am just curious if any of you guys have ever been in this situation and if so how did you handle it??

Today, I will do what others will not so that...

 

Tomorrow, I will do what others can not

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Best ball tourny's are ALWAYS SKETCHY.....

 

Someone always yells "Shananagings" at post round awards ceremony. Sometimes you just have to laugh it off....... :lol:

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Oh I know guys who want me to play in scrambles and stuff every year. They give me a hard time about putting in my low scores cause it'll hurt the team come time. They even jokingly tell me they'll have to find someone else to replace me. You are correct in your assumption and I'm sure it happens everywhere and all the time.

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Unfortunately this stuff is a fact of life. I played with my Dad in his member guest two years ago. We played with a guy who supposedly had an 8 handicap who played better than me. They won our flight and my Dad was so angry he vowed never to play in it again. It really was too bad because that was a really fun tournament and they had dinners both nights and gave you breakfast and all sorts of cool stuff (a hat, shirt, etc). It was more than worth the cost of admission. I do not know what is worse, being a lying cheating sandbagger for a couple hundred in pro shop merchandise or getting so angry that you stop playing in a for fun tournament with all your buddies just because of a lying cheating sandbagger.

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I put a guy on handicap probation last year he was declaring himself an 18 index course handicap of 20. I made him play as a 12 for two months. In that time he brought his handicap down a couple strokes and had to play a match play match and in two tournaments at the reduced handicap. He lost the match play match and got knocked out of our season long points race as a result. This was on the advice of our 4 man handicap committee which is responsible for reviewing all handicaps. By KCGA rules, we are supposed to have such a committee and it is very good as a club president to be able to fall back on them for support in cases such as this.

 

We require our players to date and deposit their scorecards in a box at the course. This person had not been depositing his cards. It really boiled down to a technicality, but he is a long time suspected sandbagger and it was time for an example to be made.

 

Bottom line is there is not alot that can be done if someone REALLY wants to cheat, and most baggers have a good understanding of what they are doing and know how to play the game. However, doing nothing just encourages the practice, whereas alot of guys, if they know someone is watching will toe the line if only to avoid embarrassment. For most people, winning a small stakes tournament isn't worth being publicly shamed.

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Sandbagging is a problem everywhere. I won't play flighted tournaments anymore if I have to pay an entry fee. People see prize money and cheat. Simple as that. I might enter a find raiser scramble now and then, but only for the pin prizes.

Low gross is the only way to go. But if you're a 23, you can't compete with a 2. But a 2 stands no chance against a 23 if it's net.

There is no spoon.

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I am officially a sandbagger. But wait let me explain! Last year when the old club pro was here, some how my handicap came out printed as a 13.9 not a 3.9. He said not to worry about it because he knew what it was supposed to be. A few months later, he left. The new guy comes in, and does nothing about that for several months.

 

Then the day that the USGA and R&A announce that they are proposing a ban on long putters, my club announces that we all have to pay $15 so that we can be part of the USGA's handicapping system, I forget the official name. I told them if they want $15 for beer and hookers I will pay that but I was not paying one red cent that went to the USGA for any reason until this issue is resolved the way I want it, period. The response was well, if you go to Scotland you can not play the Old Course at St. Andrews without an official USGA handicap. OK. So far that has not been an issue.

 

So, I am officially still listed as a 13.9. However, I have not played any of their tournaments where that was used. I did play in one tournament and had myself listed as a 3. Now, every week I play at least 3 rounds where the handicap is used, but we keep that ourselves. Also, I can assure you if I do not shoot a 76 or better I will not win, and I have lost shooting under par. Sunday, I shot 76 and lost but I would have had to shoot 68 to have won, because a normal 95 shooter shot 85 or something like that.

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Last year we entered a foursome in a charity event at a course that we like but is difficult to get on. We happened to notice a group on the range--we noticed them because a couple of guys hit some really bad shots (on another thread, the shots were cleverly given an alternate designation of "laterals" because they are shots that may not be named). Certainly did not appear to be a low handicapper in the group. In any event, they won BOTH 2 out of 4 BB low net AND low gross. We have some fairly intelligent people in our group and we tried but could not come up with a feasible scenario where you could win both, unless perhaps you had a couple of LHs and a couple of HHs who all played out of their minds. Ah well, we had a good time on a good course and we wouldn't have been in contention in any scenario anyway.

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This past weekend we had our "Big" tournament for the year at my local course. The format is a 2-man best ball and it is flighted according to handicap.

 

Being a current 23.5, I am in the 6th and final flight which is intended for high-cappers like myself.

 

There are these two fellows that have a reputation as sand baggers as they are both known to shoot in the mid to low 80's but somehow when tournament time comes around they have a handicap similar to mine.

 

What I suspect is that they are only turning in there worst possible scores, I have discussed this with the club pro and have basically been told there is nothing he can do about it.

 

To cut to the chase, guess who won the 6th flight.

 

I am just curious if any of you guys have ever been in this situation and if so how did you handle it??

 

Well, let me start by saying that I don't know what your flights were and what there posted rounds happen to be on there course for course / slope ratings. If you go bottom dollar on course / slope you get 67.5/113 an 85 on that results in a 17.5 differential. if you are flighted in a way that includes a 23.5 with an 18 then they are really not sand bagging so to speak, it is actually legit. I have done this before but if you keep the score the same and change only the course / slope ratings for different tee boxes on the same course you get different differentials. I think that's sort of straight forward but people over look it a lot.

 

You do get sandbaggers in any handicap related event, that is really why the organization running the event needs to have stipulations on what scores become "unrealistic" and how to handle that situation on the fly. A ton of tournaments are flat neglected or don't give a crap about the fairness of the event. They are run by golfers like you and I that don't run tournaments on a day to day basis and sure as heck not rules officials.

 

 

To help avoid sandbagging in any tournament, I look for something in the policies of the organization hosting the event and rules to see what they have in there about net prizes or handicap flights. If they don't have something in place likely hood is they don't care / do anything about it. If they have something that sounds like it wouldn't work in a single event it's geared more to over the long term of multiple events then really they won't do anything on events of unrealistic single scores.

 

I have had it happen to me where the organization only had rules stipulated to long term and a 3 handicap on a 74.0/140 tee box shot a gross score of a 68. We were playing scratch / gross scores within our division. I found it sketchy that someone can come out in a major tournament on a difficult course and beat the CH by 8 shots on just the gross score. The odds of that happening are very much a long shot. The director of the tournament did nothing even after I posted showed the same chart to him all I got was "I am aware of the chart and don't feel that the score is unrealistic". I understand that great rounds happen, I'll accept someone shooting up to 4 strokes better then their handicap as a single digit, however I will not accept someone shooting 8 strokes better then their handicap and nothing really being done about it. I had also found out on their website at the time you could request to be paired with friends but the committee was always going to grant that request. I decided after those two things that the origination running that AM Tour was a joke and my first event with them was my last event with them.

 

If you are curious here is a chart of shooting an exceptional tournament round:

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap/articles/deanstable.html

 

 

 

I have to say from the Rules / Procedures I have read on the Carolinas Golf Association (CGA), where I haven't played in one of them yet they sound like they have a good approach to this situation for their one-day tournaments: http://www.carolinasgolf.org/images/carolinasgolf/site/rules/oneday.pdf

 

The keys being the following statements:

The CGA monitors handicap score posting and reserves the right to adjust course handicaps and/or withhold prizes for competitors whose handicaps are considered unrealistic or who have participated in a disproportionate share of CGA prize distributions.

NET KNOCKOUT RULE - A player is disqualified from net prizes if his net score beats the course rating by eight or more strokes and beats the next best net score in their division by four or more strokes.

 

 

If you really want to compete on a fair legitimate level, it is my opinion that the organization running the tournament HAS to deal with both single round and long term situations and adjust the handicaps as needed or withhold prizes from anyone they feel has sandbagged.

 

 

 

As for 4-man best ball, I refuse to even play in those events. They are mostly nothing but fund raisers and a big drinking event. Really my impressions of every 4-man best ball I have played in except for one has been "he who cheats the most wins".

 

As for 2-man best ball, the CGA also has rules target for that, where they take a given percentage of the handicaps, etc:

http://www.carolinasgolf.org/images/carolinasgolf/site/rules/oneday4ball.pdf

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Sandbagging is a problem everywhere. I won't play flighted tournaments anymore if I have to pay an entry fee. People see prize money and cheat. Simple as that. I might enter a find raiser scramble now and then, but only for the pin prizes.

Low gross is the only way to go. But if you're a 23, you can't compete with a 2. But a 2 stands no chance against a 23 if it's net.

I still play in flighted tournaments, but only if they are flighted after the first round and have a 10% rule (if your score is 10% lower, then you get bumped up a flight). You can still sandbag in this format, but it makes it a lot harder.

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A great big THANK YOU to all of you who commented.

 

I was just feeling really frustrated because my partner and I were really trying hard and working for every stroke we earned.

 

We have discussed it and decided we just need to work on our game and lower our handicaps so we can be in a higher flight next year.

 

Thanks again!

Today, I will do what others will not so that...

 

Tomorrow, I will do what others can not

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Late to the party here, and maybe this is slightly off the mark, but I finally found a men's club where the HCP's appear to be real. The club leadership take it seriously and keep an eye on what's going on with the membership. Anyway, the bottom line is I feel like the playing field is as level as it reasonably can be during our tournament events, whether they be net, 4-ball etc. Like Tyk mentioned above, sometimes an example has to be made to bring some people back around to the spirit of the game.

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But if you're a 23, you can't compete with a 2. But a 2 stands no chance against a 23 if it's net.

I get why you're saying this, but I'm not sure I agree if the GHIN's are truly accurate. The whole point of the system is to allow a 2 and 23 to compete together, right? Or maybe the system breaks down with such a wide GHIN gap.

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I think you've got it. If a 23 has two good holes, he can shoot 6 strokes under his handicap. It would take a career round for a 2 to beat that.

There is no spoon.

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Can people post suggestions on how to deter or prevent sandbagging?

 

I am the handicap chairman at one of my clubs. We have a lot of things in place but it would be interesting to hear more things that We could try.

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I really liked the idea of having the ability to move someone up to the next flight if their score is too far out of whack with the handicap. I.e., if a 16 shoots 71, he gets bumped to the correct flight. I think if you make it clear that they can be moved at your discretion, it should discourage the cheats. A little. Or better yet, they are subject to disqualification if their score does not reflect their handicap.

There is no spoon.

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As I said, we have a committee of 4. They are annonymous, no one knows who is on the committee, they just know there is a chance they are playing with a handicap committee member whenever they are playing with the group. The committee is responsible for keeping tabs on player's handicaps in general and for reviewing and investigating complaints and discrepancies.

 

We require that all rounds be posted, and that the scorecards for all rounds at our course be placed in a locked drop box. First stop in any investigation is that box, where we can compare cards with posted scores, and we can use the computer at the course to look up when a player has played and see if a score was posted and if we have a card for it. Cards are audited a couple times a season just to keep tabs on things.

 

We have several tournaments a year that we post as Tournament rounds, we give double points in our season long points race and pay out more in prizes for these events.

 

Likely in part because of these efforts, of a group of 90 guys, we have only had three people I believe were definite sandbaggers. After I popped the one last year with a two month probation, one of them left and the others handicap miraculously dropped 4 strokes! We have more trouble with "vanity handicaps" that we do with sandbaggers!

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