Jacked up lofts in clubs are ruining the games of most golfers.

[Rickles]

I just had this discussion with the guy who does my club repair work. (He is a 60 something guy who learned how to build clubs working at the Hogan company when Ben Hogan was still at the helm. He has some crazy stories about what an exacting man Hogan was. Exacting is me putting what he says about Hogan's eccentricities nicely.) I had just read Terry Koehler's (the scor golf guy) article about how badly the big oem's are hurting the average golfer in their quest for producing the longest clubs. article We both feel the same way and actually got angry and yelly talking about this even though we both were in agreement. It makes our blood boil!

 

It used to be that if you bought an old set of Hogan's or Wilson Staff's or Macgregor's they had a 52 degree pitching wedge and the gaps all went up equally 4 degrees and a half inch per club. That left you with a 20 degree 2 iron. Some of the new pitching wedges are 43 degrees and the weakest you can get them in most sets is 46. To do this they have squeezed the upper clubs to 3 degree gaps and some companies now even have a 2 degree gap between their 4 and 3 irons. Most companies 4 irons have the same loft and are actually about the same length as an old 2 iron. Guys have also added hybrids, strong three woods and lower lofted drivers. Then they are listening to guys like Stan Utley who tell you can do everything with the short game with a 58 and a 52-54 degree wedge. Then think about courses these days. Greens are firmer and faster, rough is longer and thicker and new golf courses are made with undulating greens, deep bunkers, collection areas, etc. Courses are also longer which does mean you have to hit more long approaches but it also means more shots from the rough and a whole lot of short shots.

 

So you have 2 less lofted clubs where you really need them for short game shots and short approaches that set up birdies and save pars and more long clubs including a driver that is longer but is much harder to keep in the fairway or even in play. Heck most guys are also not getting as much distance because they don't play enough loft. A strong three wood which is really only a second driver that they can't hit off the deck which they use as a tee club on tight holes, but they could probably hit better than their driver (just look at Phil)! Then a couple of hybrids and long irons that all hit about the same distance. This is absolutely ludicrous. If you look at Phil's lofts you could see that the average golfer would do so much better with a bag like his. He plays 5 wedges but his 48 is really a pitching wedge and his 44 is really a nine iron. He only plays irons to a 4 iron. which is really a 2iron. Then a 19 degree hybrid, and a 13.5 degree super hot faced 3 wood with a shaft the length of most pro's drivers from 20 years ago. This is actually the perfect bag for a pro.

 

For a 10-20 handicapper it would be similar: Lob, sand, gap 1 and gap 2 wedge. Game improvment irons pw up to a 6 iron tops. with the lofts of the 6 iron bent strong to keep 4 degree lofts then 2 hybrids (21 and 25) a 4 wood (17 degrees) and a 12 degree driver. You should only carry one club that has more loft than you can confidently hit into a green and hold it when you have to carry water.

 

This would actually give you about 4 degree gaps all the way through. If you were a single digit or a scratch. a 4 iron, 1 less hybrid a 3 wood and a slightly lower lofted driver.

 

Or if you like to carry a 64 degree wedge like me. do what I do.

 

x wedge: 64

 

l wedge: 59

 

s wedge: 54

 

p wedge: 49

 

9 iron bent 2 degree weak to 44

 

8 iron bent 1 degree weak to 39

 

7 iron: 34

 

6 iron: 30

 

5 iron: 1 degree strong to 26

 

4 iron: 2 degree strong to 22

 

Hybrid: 19

 

Phranken hybrid: 18.5 degree RBZ Stage 2 cranked down to 17 degrees with a 43 and 1/2 driver shaft.

 

9.5 degree driver

 

This covers all my gaps evenly and I have lots of short game options and I have long clubs that are not bunched together at the top. I have guys that I play with who get so excited that they hit their RBZ 7 iron farther than I do (I'm not going to tell them that my 7 is actually the same loft as their 9 iron.) I just enjoy the fact that I beat them by 15 shots when we play because I have a solid short game and can putt. Go ahead and be happy that you hit your seven iron past me and I'll be happy taking your money to my bank!

 

What is more frustrating is the fact that the OEM's are doing this because distance sells clubs even if it damages our games and the average golfer is either oblivious or is happy because they hit it so far with a 6 iron that should really be stamped 4.

 

Ok, my rant is finished. I feel so much better now !

[Mr_Theoo]

I think the real issue lies with there being no industry standard when it comes to clubs especially in the game improvement clubs.

 

I understand distance sells and in the end it's about making money but don't you think there is an untapped market out there for golfers who want the new technologies and help but not needing the extra long extra strong lofted irons?

[Rickles]

absolutely, OEM's would do it too, if people would buy them. All the game improvement features without the jacked up lofts would help the average golfer play better. But the company that had the guts to do it would have to not let it bother them when Taylor Made and Callaway published adds saying our 6 iron is 30 yards longer. Right now no one is willing to take that sucker punch. I'd just shoot back with an ad that says that says your players can be 30 yards longer. Our players have handicaps that are 30 percent lower! @handicaplowerier:lol:

[Mr_Theoo]

absolutely, OEM's would do it too, if people would buy them. All the game improvement features without the jacked up lofts would help the average golfer play better. But the company that had the guts to do it would have to not let it bother them when Taylor Made and Callaway published adds saying our 6 iron is 30 yards longer. Right now no one is willing to take that sucker punch. I'd just shoot back with an ad that says that says your players can be 30 yards longer. Our players have handicaps that are 30 percent lower! @handicaplowerier:lol:

 

We should get that trending on twitter lol

[Blade]

I think it's more about selling clubs than getting people to play better for sure.

 

I wouldn't do so well with the bag you described myself though. This is mine.

 

D 9°

2i 18° utility iron

3i 21°

4i 24°

5i 27°

6i 31°

7i 35°

8i 39°

9i 43°

P 47°

G 52°

S 56°

L 60°

 

Don't carry a 3w anymore. Hit my long irons better than hybrids I've tried. Maybe I'll find a hybrid I like and don't hook someday. But for now, this gaps out pretty good for me. I don't think you can build a bag that fits everyone. Some do better with woods and hybrids than irons and some are the opposite. A faster swing speed will have better success with long irons than a slower swing. Compressing the ball is everything with irons. Some people just don't and hybrids make a better choice for them. Whatever gives you more confidence. Personally I feel much more comfortable with a small iron head than some clunky thing on the end of the shaft. Don't care for the looks of the "distance" irons I've picked up. But maybe I could get past that if they made a difference in the score...maybe.

[Sluggo42]

Average Scores

Despite advances in golf equipment, Golf Channel Solutions reports that average golf scores haven't changed much over the years: the average for all golfers is 100. Men playing on an 18-hole course shoot an average of 97. The average for women is 114. If you regularly break 80, you're in an elite class. Only 6 percent of men and 1 percent of women can make that claim. Fewer than 20 percent of all golfers maintain a handicap. Among those who do, the average handicap is around 20.

 

I'm thinking that clubs don't mean squat to the average golfer, perhaps really only the top 10%? I doubt a 25 capper is going to know the difference between a 64 and a 54. Very few of the same are going to hit anything below a 7 very well either.

 

But they all want to hit the same clubs that Phil, Tiger, and Bubba hit anyways.

[ZenGolfer]

I agree that new clubs obviously dont make us play better because scores havent dropped really over the last 20 years.

IMO, whatever you may gain in distance you more than loose in accuracy. Sure, you can hit it 270 if you hit it solid but chances are you are going to slice it into the next fairway more often than not.

[Rickles]

Average Scores

Despite advances in golf equipment, Golf Channel Solutions reports that average golf scores haven't changed much over the years: the average for all golfers is 100. Men playing on an 18-hole course shoot an average of 97. The average for women is 114. If you regularly break 80, you're in an elite class. Only 6 percent of men and 1 percent of women can make that claim. Fewer than 20 percent of all golfers maintain a handicap. Among those who do, the average handicap is around 20.

 

I'm thinking that clubs don't mean squat to the average golfer, perhaps really only the top 10%? I doubt a 25 capper is going to know the difference between a 64 and a 54. Very few of the same are going to hit anything below a 7 very well either.

 

But they all want to hit the same clubs that Phil, Tiger, and Bubba hit anyways.

 

This is true. It also shows that if the OEM's used all the technology that makes clubs more forgiving and kept clubs shorter with more loft they could improve people's scores. However, you are right, people care more about playing what pros play even though it hurts them.

[Rickles]

Whatever gives you more confidence. Personally I feel much more comfortable with a small iron head than some clunky thing on the end of the shaft. Don't care for the looks of the "distance" irons I've picked up. But maybe I could get past that if they made a difference in the score...maybe.

 

I was just putting something out there that makes more sense for the "average golfer". Everyone is different. If irons work better for you play them. Your set is evenly gapped and there is not a big short game hole, so it's great. What is a problem is when people are carrying 4 clubs at the top that all go within 10 yards of each other and they have an 8 degree or more gap between their lowest lofted wedge and the pw from their set. I also like that you don't carry a 3 wood. No one should carry a club they cannot hit and does not give them confidence. Most golfers, if they were honest would play a high lofted driver and then go to a high lofted hybrid because they really can't hit a 3-5 wood, or a low lofted hybrid, or a 2-4 iron.

[furu]

Not really a problem. Unless you get caught up in the number on the sole.

 

In 1972 you'd hit i 34° club on your favourite par 3 at the club.

In 2013 you're still hitting the 34° club at the same par 3.

 

Or maybe you can go to a 38° because of the moderns shafts. No big deal.

 

Does it matter that 3i and 4i have very strong lofts? No. Most golfers buy 5-PW. They add a hybrid or two. I used to get upset by the loftrace. Not anymore. The number on the sole has nothing to do with how you play.

[RookieBlue7]

Courses are longer today too, and as such, you've gotta hit the ball longer. The game is evolving. The number on the sole doesn't matter so long as you cover your gaps evenly. Start with the driver and gap based off of the AVERAGE yardage for it. Whatever the set make up ends up being for what you hit most consistently is what you should play. We're not hitting Gutta Percha's anymore either.

[JBones]

Courses are longer today too, and as such, you've gotta hit the ball longer. The game is evolving. The number on the sole doesn't matter so long as you cover your gaps evenly. Start with the driver and gap based off of the AVERAGE yardage for it. Whatever the set make up ends up being for what you hit most consistently is what you should play. We're not hitting Gutta Percha's anymore either.

I'm in complete agreement with Rookie here; I have two points to my argument and the above statement covers one of them.

 

The second is, nobody ever takes shaft technology into the equation. I have been playing for 26 years, so I have played a lot of different types of equipment. Stiff shafts in the 80's felt like hard stepped XS shafts of today. The reason you had a 52* PW back then is because you couldn't get the ball in the air if it wasn't that lofted. My first set were Spalding Elite Professional Blades and I don't think I could get anything below the 7i airborne until I was a sophomore in high school and hitting the 2i-4i..........yeah right, watch out worms. Now you take the RocketBladez that I'm playing now; the 4i is the loft of a 3i, but launches as high as a 7i; I hit that 4i 220 and it lands soft enough to hold even the firmest greens.

 

Ruining the game? Not even close.

[GolfSpy WD]

IMO, people put too much emphasis on loft gapping and not enough on actual yardage gaps produced by the clubs. I'd also challenge anyone to say a GI 4i of today is harder to hit than a 4i from the 80s, despite being stronger loft. I'm not saying every player today can hit a 4i, it took me a long time to be able to hit mine, but with practice it can be done.

 

As for the Golf Digest article saying average handicap hasn't changed. I've seen this quoted many times and have never actually seen the article. So I looked around for 5 minutes and found this quote:

 

The national average Handicap Index for men is 14.7, approximately one stroke lower than it was in 1990

 

reference: http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2008-06/usopenhandicap?currentPage=2

 

My point is, if you have a 44-45* PW, then get a 48-52-56 setup or something with 5* gaps in your wedges. There's really no need to carry a 64* because you can use a 58* for most of the same shots with practice by simply opening the clubface.

[ms1195]

 

My point is, if you have a 44-45* PW, then get a 48-52-56 setup or something with 5* gaps in your wedges. There's really no need to carry a 64* because you can use a 58* for most of the same shots with practice by simply opening the clubface.

 

This is part of why I don't understand carrying so many wedges. They are the most easily manipulated club, and can effectively cover probably 10* by opening and closing the face. I can't ever imagine carrying a 52, 56, 60 setup, somewhat redundant for me.

 

I also agree with furu about concentrating on the degrees of the club, not the number on the bottom. If you need a certain distance, hit the club that will get it there. Why does it matter if it was a 5 iron in the 80's and a 7 iron today?

[RookieBlue7]

This is part of why I don't understand carrying so many wedges. They are the most easily manipulated club, and can effectively cover probably 10* by opening and closing the face. I can't ever imagine carrying a 52, 56, 60 setup, somewhat redundant for me.

 

I also agree with furu about concentrating on the degrees of the club, not the number on the bottom. If you need a certain distance, hit the club that will get it there. Why does it matter if it was a 5 iron in the 80's and a 7 iron today?

 

 

Why do I carry 5 wedges? Distance gaps and the scoring area on courses. I have no problem with distance at all at any courses I've ever played. But to get my gaps right at the scoring end of the bag (150 and under), I prefer to have more options as well as not having to manipulate the clubface and hit a flop shot. Can I do it? Absolutely, no problem. But the success rate for a flop shot is lower for an amateur golfer. Why, being as distance isn't a problem, would I want to carry an extra club that I might hit once or twice a round as opposed to a scoring club that I may use much more around the green? There are more shots hit from inside 150 and especially around the green than any other distance on the course. So why not simplify that? Thicker rough and a narrow green, the average guy plays a risky flop and hopes to stop it. Me? I pull my 64 or 60* and chop it out and get it to stop due to loft. I'd rather have an extra scoring club versus a longer club that I might hit the green 1 of 4 times with from 225+. I have a big gap between my 3 wood and 4 hybrid. I can choke down on the 3 wood or I can play the 4 hybrid back in my stance and deloft it and swing hard. Success factor doing either of those would be just as high as it would having a club between them to hit.

 

For example's sake, #12 at my home course is a long par 3. It plays at 235 to the back of the green from the back tees. When that pin is back, I would need an in between club to have a normal shot into the green. I hit my 3 wood 258 on average and my 4 hybrid is 218 on average (these are my numbers from Flightscope on my distance card). Big gap there, I'm sure most would agree. The pin on that hole is rarely up front (it plays around 210 to the front, long narrow green). Right of the hole is a trap and a bank that rolls down to the cart path and across is a pond. Left is also a trap and a hill down into a weedy garbage area. Long it goes ino the edge of the woods. The front it open. Could I hit a, say, 18 degree hybrid (I have a utility iron that's 18* that I hit 242) and get to the back easily? Sure. But there's trouble left, right and long. What's the smart play? I hit the 4 hybrid. I could deloft it a litle (3-4 balls back in my stance). My normal flight with that shot is a low, boring draw that I can run up to 230, so I can get it back there. I hit that shot, taking dead aim at the pine tree at the bunker's front right, and hit the low boring draw. If I carry it just on the front edge, it'll release all the way back near the rear of the green. If I carry it just short of the front edge, there's a little mound that will knock a bunch of speed off of it, make it hop up higher and land somewhere in the front 3rd. Putting is my strength, so I place it in the normal position in the stance (center to 1 ball forward of center) and hit the normal stock shot with it, which lands softly in the front 3rd and doesn't release much. Pin is back so why do I not try to hit it back there? Trouble on all 3 sides that I flirt with taking the risk (same with a lower lofted club, higher probability to miss and be in one of the trouble spots). I pick my poison and hit it to front center and either have a long 2 putt or run a snake in. Either way, the play there is for par, not birdie, if you luck up and make a birdie, you're gonna win money every time. And if I leave it short, there's 80-100 yards of fairway down the hill to the lake in the valley between the tee and green. A miss anywhere short and straight as long as it goes 130-40 yards off the tee won't hurt you. So I miss front and the pin is tucked up front, I have a short sided chip, what do I hit? Some would answer a flop shot with a 58 degree wedge. Not me, just a stock chip shot with a 64 that stops dead. That's my thoughts on club selection and set make-up. Answer? It depends on the person and their philosophy.

[ms1195]

Answer? It depends on the person and their philosophy.

I agree with this, because while some would hit a flop shot, I can open the face on my 58 only slightly and hit a normal pitch that would probably equate to a 60-64 wedge. We all play differently and there is no right answer.

[Rickles]

I'm in complete agreement with Rookie here; I have two points to my argument and the above statement covers one of them.

 

The second is, nobody ever takes shaft technology into the equation. I have been playing for 26 years, so I have played a lot of different types of equipment. Stiff shafts in the 80's felt like hard stepped XS shafts of today. The reason you had a 52* PW back then is because you couldn't get the ball in the air if it wasn't that lofted. My first set were Spalding Elite Professional Blades and I don't think I could get anything below the 7i airborne until I was a sophomore in high school and hitting the 2i-4i..........yeah right, watch out worms. Now you take the RocketBladez that I'm playing now; the 4i is the loft of a 3i, but launches as high as a 7i; I hit that 4i 220 and it lands soft enough to hold even the firmest greens.

 

Ruining the game? Not even close.

 

With all due respect you are not the average golfer. I am saying that it is ruining the average golfers game. You have an incredibly high swing speed. That makes long irons a great choice for you. I would say that less than 1 percent of golfers can hit the ball as far as you or have the swing speed you produce. I would also say that your 4 iron is a 2 iron. It is great that the modern clubs and shafts hit high and land soft. However if you look at the lofts on the long irons, three degree gaps are unnecessary. Some clubs actually have a 2 degree gap between the 4 and 3 iron. I am saying that most people would play better with larger gaps in the long clubs, that they do not hit that accurate anyway, and closer gaps in the short clubs that they can hit accurately. The modern sets give you larger gaps in the short clubs and smaller gaps in the long ones. It's backwards.

[revkev]

I'd like to point out that the lower handicappers are advocating for carrying more clubs at the bottom end of the bag.

 

If I were a higher or mid-handicapper I might take notice of that.

 

I do agree that there is a certain amount of to each his own in that the higher lofted wedges - 59 and above can be very daunting to hit properly for more average players - that doesn't change the fact that it is easier to hit a club precisely when the blade is square and it is being gripped the same way up and down the bag than when it's manipulated.

 

Figure out where you hit the most shots and you'll see pretty quickly that its inside of 100 yards. Also figure out where you should have the most success or the greatest expectation of success. If touring pro hits the ball on the green less than 50 percent of the time from 200 why in the world would someone with an 18 need three clubs to hit the ball that distance?

 

Check the ego - realize that the OEM's aren't going to change because that's what most people want - distance - and then figure out what bag configuration will help you shoot the lowest score - not with your current game but with the ideal game - Unless you have a very low handicap you are throwing strokes away with more than a 5 degree gap in the lower end of your bag.

 

As for the upper end of the bag who cares? I really don't care that JBones 4 iron is my old 2 iron - I care that JBones hits it succesfully just as I hit my 2 iron succesful when I played with one. When I stopped hitting it sucessfully I quit using a 2 iron.

 

Good luck everyone and this is a great thread if it gets one person to eliminate a long club that's taking up space and add a short club that will help them reduce their scores.

[Rickles]

Why do I carry 5 wedges? Distance gaps and the scoring area on courses. I have no problem with distance at all at any courses I've ever played. But to get my gaps right at the scoring end of the bag (150 and under), I prefer to have more options as well as not having to manipulate the clubface and hit a flop shot. Can I do it? Absolutely, no problem. But the success rate for a flop shot is lower for an amateur golfer. Why, being as distance isn't a problem, would I want to carry an extra club that I might hit once or twice a round as opposed to a scoring club that I may use much more around the green? There are more shots hit from inside 150 and especially around the green than any other distance on the course. So why not simplify that? Thicker rough and a narrow green, the average guy plays a risky flop and hopes to stop it. Me? I pull my 64 or 60* and chop it out and get it to stop due to loft. I'd rather have an extra scoring club versus a longer club that I might hit the green 1 of 4 times with from 225+.

+1, This is exactly what I am talking about. Why open a club face if you don't have to. I Have 4 wedges and 3 backswing lengths with each club with a square face and I know exactly how far they fly if I put a correct swing on it. I can have three more distances by choking down a set amount which is marked on my grip. What I cannot do is open my club face up exactly the same amount every time. If you say you can that simply is not true. Take variables out and give yourself exact yardage. I can play my 64 in the center of my stance or back when the rough is deep not chunk it and stop it with the loft by taking a normal swing with the face square. It takes the guess work out. Hitting shots with the face open takes tons of practice. Most of us who don't play golf for a living do not have the time.

[GolfSpy WD]

With all due respect you are not the average golfer. I am saying that it is ruining the average golfers game. You have an incredibly high swing speed. That makes long irons a great choice for you. I would say that less than 1 percent of golfers can hit the ball as far as you or have the swing speed you produce. I would also say that your 4 iron is a 2 iron. It is great that the modern clubs and shafts hit high and land soft. However if you look at the lofts on the long irons, three degree gaps are unnecessary. Some clubs actually have a 2 degree gap between the 4 and 3 iron. I am saying that most people would play better with larger gaps in the long clubs, that they do not hit that accurate anyway, and closer gaps in the short clubs that they can hit accurately. The modern sets give you larger gaps in the short clubs and smaller gaps in the long ones. It's backwards.

 

Bones and I carry the same irons, albeit with different shafts. I agree with everything he said and would say I'm much more of an average golfer.

 

Gaps only exist in the scoring clubs if you insist on playing a traditional set. It's not hard to get a proper set of wedges.

[Mr_Theoo]

Bones and I carry the same irons, albeit with different shafts. I agree with everything he said and would say I'm much more of an average golfer.

 

Gaps only exist in the scoring clubs if you insist on playing a traditional set. It's not hard to get a proper set of wedges.

 

Maybe the term we are looking for isn't average golfer but uninformed golfer. One who doesn't understand how important proper gapping is for playing good golf?

[hckymeyer]

I think we are talking about two different issues here. Jack up lofts are one thing, improper or uninformed gapping is another.

 

Personally after reviewing the Amp Cell irons I have zero issues with jacked up lofts. I haven't done anything to rework my wedges since switching to this set, but it's something I'm considering. My GW is the one that came in the set and is 49°, then I go to a 56° and 60°. That's a 7° gap between GW and SW, but I haven't had any issues with this setup. The GW is still a full swing club for me, but with 56° it's almost always 1/2 and 3/4 swing shots. I've tried using a 64° in the past and I'd say it's just as hard to use properly as a 3i or 4i is for an average golfer.

 

It really don't matter what number is stamped on the bottom of the club, it matters if it fits your game and if you can hit it a repeatable distance. I don't think jacked up lofts have anything to do with being able to properly gap your setup. When someone asks me what club I hit I tell them the yardage, not the iron number. Makes things a lot easier to compare that way.

[revkev]

I agree with Mr. Theo - perhaps I haven't followed this thread properly - we each have a differing skill set and we each shoot our scores differently.

 

Having written that you have to take what is being offered and fit it or better be fit for it to your playing ability. For most golfers, myself include and I'm pretty good, opening a club accept in extreme emergencies is not a wise decision - its worse than that shot from 215 (my max in Florida with a 3 wood) - I don't expect to hit the ball on the green from there but I do expect a reasonable result ie. something that will leave me an angle to get up and down from where my ball ends up -

 

Once the face of a wedge is opened a number of possibilities come into play that could leave a player in worse shape than where he started and way, way too much of the time - frankly its better to not open the thing, knock it 20 feet past, 2 putt, card the bogey and move on unless you are extemely skilled and have lots of time to practice.

 

So instead why not have clubs at the bottom of your bag - whatever they're called - to cover most of the gaps - I don't carry a 64 but I do carry a 60 - I also subscribe to Rickles theory and I've got everything covered down to 35 yards - those shots are no brainers with a little practice - I also know I can hit a simple flop shot with the 60 under the proper circumstances as a shot of last resort - If I have time to practice a bit of course.

 

Lets be honest about how this phenomena began as well - I think JBones hit it on the head - it started because as equipment and fitness improved so did swing speeds and launch angles, better players needed less loft on their irons to control the ball (this was especially true with balata). Soon touring pros needed what has become the gap wedge to fill the void between the PW and the SW - after a time OEM's figured out that amateurs wanted distance from their irons so they started to market sets with stronger lofts. We all have sets with stronger lofts than yesteryear - its great because I can still hit 7 iron from 150 when I used to need 8 - I feel much better about myself because of the number when the reality is that I've lost about 2 and a half clubs in distance but no big deal because I'm still hitting a club with 7 on it from 150 and when I was Indiana I did hit an 8 from there.

 

I guess from my perspective its not getting caught up on the loft of the club or the number on the club or the type of club - who cares? Its making sure that your lofts are set so that you have even gaps and most especially so that those even gaps are in the scoring zone from 150 in. I really don't care if you call your 150 club a PW and its 36 degrees. I don't care if you call your utility iron with 18 degrees a 2 iron or a 1 iron or your 21 degree club a 4 iron. What does it matter? What I care is that you are informed and that you set your set make up in a way that gives you the best chance to score.

 

If that make up causes you to have to open a wedge more than once every two or three rounds - I think you're fooling yourself into thinking you have the proper set make up.

 

Hackmeyer's post must have come in as I was posting - I do the same thing - if someone asks me what club I hit I tell them - my 162 yard club - if they ask me what club I think they should hit I tell them how long I think the shot is playing - unless I know their game really well.

[GolfSpy WD]

Maybe the term we are looking for isn't average golfer but uninformed golfer. One who doesn't understand how important proper gapping is for playing good golf?

 

This is a very fair point. Rev touched on most things, so I won't rehash what he said.

 

My argument though would be to educate the uninformed golfers and not to change lofts. From my experience, the gaps in the long irons are pretty good as is. With the right wedges and learning to hit 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 shots, you're golden.

[Blade]

The biggest reason I carry a 60° isn't for gapping. It's not even for the rare flop shot because I can do that with the 56°. The real reason I carry it is for the low bounce I chose. I picked one with 5° of bounce for tight lies, rock hard bunkers some courses have and it comes in handy for a downhill chip that wants to run away from you. Other than that, I use my 56°. There's more to a wedge than the loft.

[Rickles]

Maybe the term we are looking for isn't average golfer but uninformed golfer. One who doesn't understand how important proper gapping is for playing good golf?

I like this, probably a better term.

I also agree with what the rev is saying. My hope was just to vent and inform the uninformed to the importance of proper gapping and having lots of short game options inside 125.

[RoverRick]

 

I just had this discussion with the guy who does my club repair work. (He is a 60 something guy who learned how to build clubs working at the Hogan company when Ben Hogan was still at the helm. He has some crazy stories about what an exacting man Hogan was. Exacting is me putting what he says about Hogan's eccentricities nicely.) I had just read Terry Koehler's (the scor golf guy) article about how badly the big oem's are hurting the average golfer in their quest for producing the longest clubs. article We both feel the same way and actually got angry and yelly talking about this even though we both were in agreement. It makes our blood boil!

 

Hogan was "exacting" but keep in mind the clubs of the era other than his were crap off the shelf. Terry Koehler you must keep in mind wants to sell you wedges. Lots of wedges. He wants to replace set 9 iron and PW with one of his. And why not. That is another $250 for Scor on top of the other 3 or 4 they want you to buy at $125 a pop.

 

I recently took his fitting and received an email telling me how I needed to have even gaps between my wedges so I can even the distances on full shots. This is crap since I rarely take a full shot with any wedge but the pitching wedge. I have my distances down with partial shots.

 

It used to be that if you bought an old set of Hogan's or Wilson Staff's or Macgregor's they had a 52 degree pitching wedge and the gaps all went up equally 4 degrees and a half inch per club. That left you with a 20 degree 2 iron. Some of the new pitching wedges are 43 degrees and the weakest you can get them in most sets is 46. To do this they have squeezed the upper clubs to 3 degree gaps and some companies now even have a 2 degree gap between their 4 and 3 irons. Most companies 4 irons have the same loft and are actually about the same length as an old 2 iron. Guys have also added hybrids, strong three woods and lower lofted drivers. Then they are listening to guys like Stan Utley who tell you can do everything with the short game with a 58 and a 52-54 degree wedge. Then think about courses these days. Greens are firmer and faster, rough is longer and thicker and new golf courses are made with undulating greens, deep bunkers, collection areas, etc. Courses are also longer which does mean you have to hit more long approaches but it also means more shots from the rough and a whole lot of short shots.

 

I will tell you what I think is ruining the game of golf and that is people grousing about what is ruining the game while pontificating about how things used to be when that is simply not the case. These are the stories like they had to walk to school 5 miles uphill both ways, and they had to eat dirt.

 

Return with me now to those thrilling days of yesteryear where the men were men and the ships were wood. Oops too far back, how about to when the men were men and the woods were wood. So at least back to 1979 or so, maybe even a few years this side of that would be a good place to look.

 

Ben Hogan Radials were introduced in 1983. The sand wedge of 58 degrees or so was introduced in 1935 and then the next club in the bag was the 10 iron at 50*. So basically, there was nothing between a 58 and 50. You say there was some 52* and there may have been. I know the Wilson Dyna Power Turf Rider Sole pitching wedge was 51. I have a friend that has a pristine set of these and they look beautiful but by today's standards are not that playable when compared to even the MP33 Mizunos.

 

The Hogan Radials were 50*, 45*, 41*, 37*, 33.5*, 30*, 26.5*, 23*, 19.5*. So with the sand wedge you had 8* until the 10 iron then 5* to the 9, then 4* on up to the 8 and 4* to the 7 and then dropping down to 3.5* up to 2 iron. Please keep in mind that most people could not hit 5 iron or above and below that they did not hit well. But since most shots are 150 yards and in you had only 4 clubs to cover that. This is the reason Hogan called the 10 iron, or pitching wedge, the Equalizer and why that club had a 10 in some brands, a PW in others and an E on Hogan irons. This club was used almost as often as the putter.

 

It does not matter that what used to be called a 1 is now a 3 and what used to be a 9 iron is now a pitching wedge. The bigger deal is that what no one could hit, 1 iron, people can now hit the 3 iron. Perhaps they would be better off hitting the hybrid but the bottom line is that at least some people can hit these clubs now.

 

I picked the 1983 Hogan Radials for a reason. The end of that year or the first of the next, the most radical shift in golf occured. The Ping Eye 2. Yes, these were an evolution of the Ping Eye, but it started a revolution. Also introduced in the set was a 61* Lob Wedge. It was not until the Ping Eye 2 that there was such a thing as a lob wedge. It was not until the Zing 2 that gap wedges were introduced with the set.

 

But even with the new release of the Eye 2's, Ping realized the error of their way. With the perimeter weighting, it made sense to add more loft to the clubs and tighten them up at the bottom. Thus the introduction of the Ping Eye 2 + with "jacked up lofts" to have more clubs in the scoring zone. Shortly after Ping introduced the first "Player's Cavity Back" the Ping Eye 2 + no, with no offset.

 

But once again the story here is playability. I had a set of Sam Snead Woods 1, 2, 3, 4 and Tonney Penna irons 2-W and a MacGregor Iron Master putter, which I still have. I could hit the 4 wood maybe 175 with a tailwind down hill, the six iron 150 and on down to 100 for the PW. The rest of them were dead weight. And as far as accuracy I just hit them to the south or the general direction of the green. It did not really matter because I would hit it. A few years later I bought a set of Ping Eye 2.

 

So you have 2 less lofted clubs where you really need them for short game shots and short approaches that set up birdies and save pars and more long clubs including a driver that is longer but is much harder to keep in the fairway or even in play. Heck most guys are also not getting as much distance because they don't play enough loft. A strong three wood which is really only a second driver that they can't hit off the deck which they use as a tee club on tight holes, but they could probably hit better than their driver (just look at Phil)! Then a couple of hybrids and long irons that all hit about the same distance. This is absolutely ludicrous. If you look at Phil's lofts you could see that the average golfer would do so much better with a bag like his. He plays 5 wedges but his 48 is really a pitching wedge and his 44 is really a nine iron. He only plays irons to a 4 iron. which is really a 2iron. Then a 19 degree hybrid, and a 13.5 degree super hot faced 3 wood with a shaft the length of most pro's drivers from 20 years ago. This is actually the perfect bag for a pro.

 

The Taylormade RocketBladeZ does a much better job of covering the gaps than a clubs of a bygone era that you waxed nostalgic about earlier. And it does it clubs that are playable by high handicappers. Jacking with the lofts is only half the story, there is also length. While the gap distance in lofts decreases with the RocketBladeZ, the length increases. Also the design of the club is said to create more distance.

 

For a 10-20 handicapper it would be similar: Lob, sand, gap 1 and gap 2 wedge. Game improvment irons pw up to a 6 iron tops. with the lofts of the 6 iron bent strong to keep 4 degree lofts then 2 hybrids (21 and 25) a 4 wood (17 degrees) and a 12 degree driver. You should only carry one club that has more loft than you can confidently hit into a green and hold it when you have to carry water.

 

I might agree with this in general terms but not for every 10-20 capper. That depends on their swing. I will say it has been my observation that better course management and better chipping and putting will decrease a handicap faster than anything.

 

So it does no good to talk about how the OEM's are ruining the game by making clubs that the high handicapper can hit better, farther, and longer. Most of these same OEM's and some smaller OEM's make the equipment that every golfer needs. It is up to the golfer to wade through and get the right set for themselves. There are people out there that do just that.

[Rickles]

I will tell you what I think is ruining the game of golf and that is people grousing about what is ruining the game while pontificating about how things used to be when that is simply not the case. These are the stories like they had to walk to school 5 miles uphill both ways, and they had to eat dirt.

 

I will say it has been my observation that better course management and better chipping and putting will decrease a handicap faster than anything.

 

 

As for the first statement I am quite young, 33. The only older blades I have a lot of familiarity with are my Hogan Apex PC's that I played for about 5 years. I have also hit the radials and they are very different. PC's were the players blades that Hogan played himself later in life. He usually played the models that only had black paintfill. The Radials were more like Hogan's version of a game improvement club. However, my friend usually knows what he is talking about when it comes to clubs and he was talking about older sets of Irons starting in the 50's from Wilson, Macgregor, Hogan and Others. He claims that starting in the 1950's a pitching wedge, or whatever they called it, started migrating from 52 degrees all the way until now where it is as low as 42 in a couple of sets. I am glad for modern advances in equipment. Clubs are much easier to hit today. I am just frustrated that most oem's are tightly spacing the gaps at the long end where people don't need them, and telling them they should buy more long game clubs that do not really help people play better because most of us are not very accurate with them while also causing wide gaps at the bottom where closer gaps could help a persons ability to score where it counts because as you said better course management and improved short game (chipping, distance wedges and putting) will decrease a persons handicap fastest.

 

As far as pontification, how is people talking about ruining the game and talking about the way things used to be any different than pontificating by writing a rather scathing retort that seems to say, in a rather condescending tone, that you are right and I am wrong. Lets just have a civil discussion. We are probably both closer to the same opinion than you think. I agree with most of what you said. Lets be friends and respect one another. That is why I like this forum better than the others.

[Shambles]

Big subject for such a short title.

 

I have my doubts that the jacked up lofts are ruining the game for new guys, though I do believe they leave decisions to the new guy that may or may not be comfortable for the new guy to make. I liked the days when you could buy a set of irons that consisted of 3 to sand and your only job after that was to learn to use them. If you got better, you could buy the 1 and 2 of that set, just like the pros carry. They even had the 60* wedge as an extra purchase and it was a relief for those of us who had trouble getting out of the sand without crossing the green to the other side and still not putting.

 

When I buy, or think about buying a new set these days I need to also think about the added wedges that I'll also have to buy from someone to fill up the missing lofts I need for my short game, and this is what confronts the new guy whether he is aware of it or not. However my choices are determined by the short game I developed for myself and the new guy more than likely is going to have a different skill set that determines his needs. Bag composition has always been personal even in those days that manufacturers tried to anticipate your need. In my case, depending on the lofts that the new set come with, I would be buying 2 or 3 additional wedges. Others may have different requirements. Regardless the bottom line is that a new set of irons is going to cost more than the list price of those irons alone. Kind of makes the concept of buying another set of irons a thing that needs a lot of considering.

 

 

Most certainly, a new set has always been an expense and never a negligible cost to me. I had to want it bad enough to spend the money and even if the dollar cost back then was not such a high number, the dollar bought a lot more back then too. New guys with no habits or set solutions for their short game need to feel their way into what they need and spend the additional money. However, even in the old days, there were people who felt that other wedges were better than the ones that came with their set and spent the money for those.

 

Bag composition is personal. My short game began with the seven iron because I had trouble getting good results out of the wedges I had and it took me a while to learn them. Having learned my old set, my habits instruct me to buy new sets on the basis of the set I know and like best, and it really is a job and a half breaking out of that mold. New guys will develop different needs. The proving is always on the fairways and being able to play with what you brought with you.

 

 

Shambles

[revkev]

Obviously this is a great thread based on the amount of emmotion and comment being made.

 

Actually I think that we have a consensus and frankly I'm almost convinced to just regrip my Eye 2's and damn the rest of it - why not? I loved those suckers and its only my ego that gets in the way because they force me to hit 9 where others are hitting GW and so on and so forth.

 

I could play with the lofts, carry them PW through 5 iron, start up with 5 hybrid and be fine.

 

In fact I'm going to do it. I just need to sit down and figure out the conversions. You guys have me convinced - I'm cobbling together a set starting with my 60 and 55 SCOR's and filling in the with Eye 2's up until my hybrids kick in - maybe the 4, a fairway wood and a driver.

 

I'll let you know how it goes and how my ego holds up.