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The wrists... Do you turn them over?


Sluggo42

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Sometimes I wonder about this. Is this the little secret that creates distance and draw? I think that many don't roll their wrists into ball contact, and that it's more of a tennis stroke, as opposed to perhaps a baseball swing.

To me, it seems that is the power source...

 

I dunno, maybe I think too much...

 

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Yes I do and always have That is where I get my power from and also that is how I get so much spin on short iron shots.This is according to one of my instructor friends. Some say it is "proper" and some say it aint. I don't know I really have not gave it much thought. It came up one day by someone asking how I got the distance I get at my age when I don't make a big shoulder turn and a big weight shift. my friend whome I have played golf with since 12 years old said I had always done it like that.I did not know or care I just always just hit it. I have not been a student of the golf swing until 5 years or so ago and I got to thinking too much and got too mechanical and got where I could not play a lick. I went back to just hitting it with one swing thought hit the ball.I know that when I was younger I had really fast hands and hit some really big rope hooks. I compensated by holding the club face a little open at impact and hit down on it that is where I got my trap cut from. My friends here at the beach call it the "North Charlotte Saulte'" You would have to be from the Carolinas or Charlotte area to understand that one

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Descending blow into the ball with the hands leading - do not think of rolling wrists but driving left knuckles (rh golfers) into the ground and then getting to the left thumb hitchhiker position after impact.

 

A draw has nothing to do with yor wrists- club face and path

 

Wristy swings tend to be flippers which are HUGE power drains

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It seems like you would already have a solid swing that's repeatable with a single digit handicap. Kinda surprised you're wondering about that.

 

Trying to roll the wrists through impact has to be one of the most inconsistent moves you could make. Actually timing it just right would be more of an accident than the majority of times the club gets left open or gets shut too soon.

 

This summer I've simplified my swing. It has given me more consistent center contact. My problem which is getting me to try different shafts is too much spin with my irons. My miss hits have been more draw than I wanted or sometimes a push. But I am squaring the club better than ever with a draw and LESS hand action.

 

I barely have any roll in my wrists up to the top, just what folding my right arm creates. I feel like I'm dropping the club straight down behind me and as it drops, my body swings it and squares it. The tiny bit of roll with my forearms is taken back out automatically as my right arm straightens if that makes sense. The simpler the better. The more moving parts introduced, the harder to repeat.

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I mess with my swing all the time, but I think when I'm not at the range, I go into auto pilot.

But I'm open to any concept, and not so in love with my swing that I'll never change it.

Very time I go to the range, I fiddle with different things. Most last a few minute, other get into the mix forever.

 

I think I have a little bit of wrist turn over in my normal shot, I'm just playing with it a bit more right now as I hit some balls really well the other day at the range

 

Maybe a bit of a furyk swing, close to ball, blow hips open, and snap the ball out..

I dunno, it was an easy motion, and good ball explosion.

 

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I mess with my swing all the time, but I think when I'm not at the range, I go into auto pilot.

But I'm open to any concept, and not so in love with my swing that I'll never change it.

Very time I go to the range, I fiddle with different things. Most last a few minute, other get into the mix forever.

 

I think I have a little bit of wrist turn over in my normal shot, I'm just playing with it a bit more right now as I hit some balls really well the other day at the range

 

Maybe a bit of a furyk swing, close to ball, blow hips open, and snap the ball out..

I dunno, it was an easy motion, and good ball explosion.

Yea, I'm firing my hips harder than ever. But it's not until the bottom half of the swing. If I get lazy about that, I get more miss hits, not to mention weaker shots. I feel like I'm not trying to control the club and it gives me control. If I were thinking about doing something with my hands or wrists, forget it.

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#1, no, it is not the power source

 

#2, a tennis stroke? A baseball swing? A power source?

 

WTF?

 

#3, not only are ya thinkin too much, you're thinkin about the wrong stuff

 

#4, you're a 5 hdcp. At this level, you shouldn't be thinkin, and especially about flippin/cockin the wists

 

#5, please reread Apprenti's first post above, especially the first paragraph and burn that image/visualization into your subconscious mind.

 

Fairways & Greens My Friend

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C'mon mate, I'm not talking about flipping or cocking the wrists, I'm talking about the subtle little wrist turnover at impact...

 

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I think that the feeling of releasing the club head through the ball gets confused with the thought of rolling or turning the wrists over. The first is correct the second is not, just my view.

 

AJ

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I think that the feeling of releasing the club head through the ball gets confused with the thought of rolling or turning the wrists over. The first is correct the second is not, just my view.

 

AJ

 

Hmmm, maybe that's what I'm TRYING to say...

 

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Listen to RP. I've been working with him offline on the mental part of the game; over the last couple months he has been pounding visualization into my brain. I used to think about crap like this ALL the time and I didn't realize how much it was hurting my game. Now I clear all thoughts and just visualize each shot landing where I want it to, then just swing. RPs teachings finally sunk in a couple weeks ago and I'm at a total of -5 in my last 54 holes and that's not counting the scramble I played in where I probably shot -3 on my own ball.

 

Moral of the story, get mental, not physical.

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Thanx a lot Bro, however, what Sluggo & a lot of others reading this probably don't know is that you've got an incredibly tight, simple, grooved swing and great touch & feel when you let yourself go, not to mention a swing speed north of 116-118mph on an average swing, LMAO :)

 

Ya can't teach/coach that, haha

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

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Ss of 118? Now that's just not fair!

 

My problem is that I've always been a very natural at games like baseball , golf, bowling, whatever... But never got dedicated to really give a anything 100%. So every time I go to the range, some weird new thought enters the brain and off I go with that. But when I an on the course, none of those things happen, and I go back to auto-pilot. It has taken me 4 months to slightly alter my swing after lessons.

 

So, maybe I'll quit posting all these weird things that enter my head and just read more, speak less...

 

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But, nah, I'm off to the range to work on my new wrist cocking/flipping swing :P

 

:titleist-small: TSr2 on tensi blue stiff

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:callaway-logo-1: Epic Max 5 and 7 woods on HZRDUS  Reg flex

:callaway-logo-1: Paradym 9 wood on HZRDUS reg flex

:taylormade-small: P770 / P790 combo set on Ventus R-6 shafts 6-AW

:mizuno-small:  T22 Denim Copper 54°, 58° on Kinetic X Trajectory 

:EVNROLL: ER3 or,

:edel-golf-1: E.A.S. #4   (“Fang” or “Adele”)
 

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But, nah, I'm off to the range to work on my new wrist cocking/flipping swing :P

 

Practice makes perfect lol

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Well, what silly thing that worked the other day took the midnite train to Georgia.

Thank goodness autopilot stayed home...

 

:titleist-small: TSr2 on tensi blue stiff

:cobra-small: Speedzone 3-wood on Tensi blue S

:callaway-logo-1: Epic Max 5 and 7 woods on HZRDUS  Reg flex

:callaway-logo-1: Paradym 9 wood on HZRDUS reg flex

:taylormade-small: P770 / P790 combo set on Ventus R-6 shafts 6-AW

:mizuno-small:  T22 Denim Copper 54°, 58° on Kinetic X Trajectory 

:EVNROLL: ER3 or,

:edel-golf-1: E.A.S. #4   (“Fang” or “Adele”)
 

:titelist-small: ProV1x, or, Maxfli Tour X

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Ive experimented with it and IMO, its difficult to be consistent that way because everything happens in a split second and you are trying to rely on precise timing every time, which most of us dont have the ability to do on a regular basis.

Ive always struggled with hitting a push and Ive found that staying connected and firing my hips does much more to fix than problem that turning over the wrists ever did.

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We sound very similar, Sluggo. I actually stopped going to the range, because I would try different things with my swing, even when I was playing well. If I can't play, I'll just go and chip/putt.

 

I think it's a disease...

Being just coordinated enough to make something work for a day. Then the next day, it's gone...

But if it was easy....

 

:titleist-small: TSr2 on tensi blue stiff

:cobra-small: Speedzone 3-wood on Tensi blue S

:callaway-logo-1: Epic Max 5 and 7 woods on HZRDUS  Reg flex

:callaway-logo-1: Paradym 9 wood on HZRDUS reg flex

:taylormade-small: P770 / P790 combo set on Ventus R-6 shafts 6-AW

:mizuno-small:  T22 Denim Copper 54°, 58° on Kinetic X Trajectory 

:EVNROLL: ER3 or,

:edel-golf-1: E.A.S. #4   (“Fang” or “Adele”)
 

:titelist-small: ProV1x, or, Maxfli Tour X

:callaway-small: .Org 14 cart bag

Adidas Tour 360 , or Sketcher shoes

 

 

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"Turn them over" isn't really the best use of words, but that is how it was described to me by my teacher when I first started taking lessons and for me at that time it was an effective way for me to visualize what I was doing wrong, which was not releasing the club, which as you know can have all kinds of bad effects!

 

As far as a source of power. . .I don't think of the wrists as such. Power is generated in the legs and the core, then transmitted through the shoulders, arms and wrists. For me now, the only real thoughts I have about my wrists are proper position at 9:00 on the takeaway (I have a tendency to want to lay them off too much and get too flat at the top) and most importantly being relaxed in the forearms and hands, so I'm moreso wanting to keep forearm/wrist/hand tension out of my swing than really trying to get them to do anything.

 

To fully deliver the power generated by the legs/core, the wrists have to be relaxed and "turning over" or as I more prefer to think about it "rolling through" the swing, but really, if you are relaxed and on plane through the swing and not allowing arm and hand tension to interfere, the wrists will do what they are supposed to do.

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Played from the tips today and shot an 80. With the new wrist flipping swing. :lol:

I'm actually crisp on the ball, more so than before. I also choked up to where my top hand is about an inch from the top of the club. I used to have my left hand holding the end of the club so nothing stuck out. Now in my fingers as opposed to my palm, thanks to a few tips from the regular know it alls in here, and I mean that in a positive way, so don't take offense. You know who you are..... RP...lol

 

Anyways, the swing is probably just more of a proper swing now, regardless of how I tried to describe it, actually better balanced to boot. I almost swing easier, let the hips flow out and bang.

 

Best part is I was totally crisping my 4 and 5 irons as well, all day. The only real difference is I lost a club in distance, like now I need an 8 for 150 instead of the 9, but that might also just be from choking up about two inches...

 

But overall it's a big difference, and it's super easy. I think it's probably just a more correct swing in reality, but I can now see it helping overall.

 

To be continued.....

 

:titleist-small: TSr2 on tensi blue stiff

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:taylormade-small: P770 / P790 combo set on Ventus R-6 shafts 6-AW

:mizuno-small:  T22 Denim Copper 54°, 58° on Kinetic X Trajectory 

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Sometimes I wonder about this. Is this the little secret that creates distance and draw? I think that many don't roll their wrists into ball contact, and that it's more of a tennis stroke, as opposed to perhaps a baseball swing.

To me, it seems that is the power source...

 

I dunno, maybe I think too much...

 

You're going to rotate your wrists in the downswing to some degree. However, it's not what produces an accurate draw towards the target. If you're hitting a draw that starts to the 'push side' of the golfer (i.e. out to the right for a right handed golfer) and draws back to the target; the clubface HAS to be *open* to some degree with relation to the target, at impact.

 

All purposely rolling the wrists over creates is a greater likelihood the that the clubface will be close at impact...which is actually needed for a fade that starts to the pull side and fades back to the target.

 

Also, all things being equal a draw does not go further than a fade.

 

The rotating of the wrists is a power source. It's one of the many ways we generate more club head speed. But if you don't rotate the wrists, the face will be wide open and impact and you will almost be assured to miss the shot well to the right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You're going to rotate your wrists in the downswing to some degree. However, it's not what produces an accurate draw towards the target. If you're hitting a draw that starts to the 'push side' of the golfer (i.e. out to the right for a right handed golfer) and draws back to the target; the clubface HAS to be *open* to some degree with relation to the target, at impact.

 

All purposely rolling the wrists over creates is a greater likelihood the that the clubface will be close at impact...which is actually needed for a fade that starts to the pull side and fades back to the target.

 

Also, all things being equal a draw does not go further than a fade.

 

The rotating of the wrists is a power source. It's one of the many ways we generate more club head speed. But if you don't rotate the wrists, the face will be wide open and impact and you will almost be assured to miss the shot well to the right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

 

You have confused me Jack. I thought an open face created a fade, and a closed face creates a draw. And I also thought a draw , all things being equal, goes further because the ball is going to run forward on the ground, and a fade runs away...

 

But what do I know, I'm a wrist flipper....

:D

 

:titleist-small: TSr2 on tensi blue stiff

:cobra-small: Speedzone 3-wood on Tensi blue S

:callaway-logo-1: Epic Max 5 and 7 woods on HZRDUS  Reg flex

:callaway-logo-1: Paradym 9 wood on HZRDUS reg flex

:taylormade-small: P770 / P790 combo set on Ventus R-6 shafts 6-AW

:mizuno-small:  T22 Denim Copper 54°, 58° on Kinetic X Trajectory 

:EVNROLL: ER3 or,

:edel-golf-1: E.A.S. #4   (“Fang” or “Adele”)
 

:titelist-small: ProV1x, or, Maxfli Tour X

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I thought an open face created a fade, and a closed face creates a draw.

 

A closed face to your swing path is what creates a draw shot shape just like the open face to path makes the ball fade

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Am I correct that the face angle dictates where the ball starts and swing path relative to face angle determines if it fades or draws?

 

Richard

 

I am good mate, just been very busy. Thanks for asking.

 

AJ

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Am I correct that the face angle dictates where the ball starts and swing path relative to face angle determines if it fades or draws?

 

Richard

 

I am good mate, just been very busy. Thanks for asking.

 

AJ

 

There ya go...for all intents and purposes face angle (relative to target line) is responsible for where the ball starts, and the path...(actually relationship of said face angle to path determines curvature.

 

Open to the target and closed to the path produces a draw/push hook

Open to the target and open to the path produces push fade/slice

Closed to the target and open to the path produces pull fade/slice

Closed to the target, closed to the face pull hook/snapper

 

This is a matter of physics (as opposed to some instructor's opinion), flipping, rotating, whatever doesn't change the above absolutes.

 

I'm a big fan of the soccer analogy. If you want to bend the ball into the far corner post, you open your foot, and swing inside to out at the ball. If you apply the old ball flight laws (face angle determines curvature, path determines starting line) to soccer, the application would be closing your foot (outstep if you will), and, kicking it towards the near post...Those of us who have played soccer know that this produces basically the absolute opposite of the desired result (and yet, some golf instructors still argue to the contrary).

 

Once you realize and accept that there is no golf exclusion to the laws of physics, the basics of ball flight are pretty simply. We can talk about the takeaway, and positions at the top, and transition moves until we're blue in the face...and yes, being in certain positions at certain points in the golf swing can be advantageous to producing the desired results, but the reality is, the totality of ball flight is determined at the moment of impact (1/4000 faster than the blink of a human eye), and nowhere else.

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Okay this is a conversation that I'm sad I missed out on.

 

I'll try a hand at it - I would think that its entirely possible you feel as if you are releasing your wrist as a by product of a sound swing. Like lots of things in golf this "move" can't be artificially created and if you do and if you do - trouble ensues.

 

At some point you have to see the ball, be the ball and let it happen - if your still in the learning the swing phase its a different matter but I doubt that's the case for a lower handicapper.

 

Having written that I know that there are plenty of people who stumble on being good at golf because I was one of those - did it by reading, trial and error, I did a Jimmy Ballard 3 day when I was in my early 30's but had no follow up and then took lessons in my mid 40's because I had a pro in my congregation whom I played with alot - those lessons were more of the course management, set make up, fitting variety than anything else though because he was satisfied that my swing works.

 

But it is what it is and the only way to hit the ball farther is to swing the club faster - there's no secret to that - if I want to hit it farther I need to hit the gym - that's more than likely the case for most of us here - its not as much our swings as we need the swings we have to go faster at impact.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Going to the gym can help some people. Now we are seeing more studies showing how the golfer's ability to use the ground helps with generating more club head speed. So more explosive legs can theoretically push off the ground with more force and generate more club head speed. When we think of a few of our longer hitters on Tour over the years, Nicklaus...Woodland...Bubba....Dustin.....all had legitimate basketball experience. Guys that generated big-time club head speed like Tiger and Mac O'Grady were avid runners.

 

However, all of it is for not if one cannot incorporate the mechanics to use the ground more.

 

For example, a former teacher of mine named Ted Fort worked with a guy who played college football and was a champion downhill skier. They went to TPI to test him out and TPI said he tested extremely well by them. But, he could only generate 85 mph of club head speed with the driver. Eventually they worked on his swing enough and got him clocked near 120 mph. In fact, he was clocked once at 119 mph with a 5-iron, which obscene.

 

But if you really want to improve your game I recommend understanding the D-Plane, the low point, vertical/horizontal gear effect and how it changes the ball's flight and the geometry of a circle. Those are 'laws' that don't change and can't be argued. The rest is theory, application and trying to convey the point to the golfer so they can understand and execute. But if you know those 'laws', one can always understand what is going on at impact and get started in a good direction of what needs to happen in order to hopefully improve their results.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

Author of Pro Golf Synopsis. The Moneyball approach to golf strategy and analysis.Driver: Wishon 919THI, 10° loft, UST Mamiya VTS Red 7x, 44-3/8” long, 2,825 kg/cm^2 MOIGONZO WOOD: confidential2-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 17° loft, 40-7/8" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)3-Hybrid: Mizuno Fli-HiCLK, 20° loft, 40" KBS Tour Hybrid shaft (stiff)4-6 iron: Wishon 575MMC (CB)7-PW: Wishon 575MMC (MB)SW: Edel Golf driver grind, 52° loft, 16° bounce, Nippon WV 125 shaft.LW: Edel Golf Digger Grind, 60° loft, 27° bounce, Nippon WV 125 ShaftPutter: Edel Golf Columbia Custom Made, 35" long, 72° lie angle, 3° loft. Ball: Titleist Pro V1xGrips: PURE Grips P2 Wrap (red)Shoes: FootJoy Dry-Joy (black, size 14)3Jack's Golf Blog - http://3jack.blogspot.com

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I think I need to go to golfsmith on their monitor to see what this "new" swing is doing... Will be interesting to see if anything changes...

 

:titleist-small: TSr2 on tensi blue stiff

:cobra-small: Speedzone 3-wood on Tensi blue S

:callaway-logo-1: Epic Max 5 and 7 woods on HZRDUS  Reg flex

:callaway-logo-1: Paradym 9 wood on HZRDUS reg flex

:taylormade-small: P770 / P790 combo set on Ventus R-6 shafts 6-AW

:mizuno-small:  T22 Denim Copper 54°, 58° on Kinetic X Trajectory 

:EVNROLL: ER3 or,

:edel-golf-1: E.A.S. #4   (“Fang” or “Adele”)
 

:titelist-small: ProV1x, or, Maxfli Tour X

:callaway-small: .Org 14 cart bag

Adidas Tour 360 , or Sketcher shoes

 

 

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I think I need to go to golfsmith on their monitor to see what this "new" swing is doing... Will be interesting to see if anything changes...

 

I went to my local GolfBox here in Perth and they have all the latest in swing monitoring equipment and it is amazing to see the mathematics of my swing compared to what I am feeling in the swing.

 

They also have the floor sensors that can tell you where your weight is being distributed throughout the swing. This information alone improved my swing 10 fold.

 

AJ

WITB

Driver: Ping G25

FW: TM RBZ

Irons: Miura 57 Series w/KBS C-Taper

Wedges: Vokey SM4 52-08,56-12,60-04

Putter: Watch This Space

Ball: SRixon Z Star

Other: Tourstriker 7i

 

"Go Hard or Go Home"

 

"Do or Do Not. There is NO "TRY"

 

"Be normal, and the crowd will accept you. Be deranged, and they will make you their leader"

 

"I don't fail. I succeed at finding what doesn't work"

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