Jump to content
Rickles

Would you play someone with non-conforming equipment for money?

Recommended Posts

I actually do play some people with non conforming clubs. One or two even play a chipper. I no longer feel there is a measurable advantage to be gained from non conforming equipment, but if I could truly buy a game, I would. Fact of the matter is, there isn't, so it does not matter if the guy plays non conforming unless you let it get into your mind and become a believer.

 

Much more dangerous is the guy who is truly better than he looks, and they are many.

 

 

 

Shambles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No problem. If they beat me, they will have had to play well period.

That's the stupidity of the whole thing.

Non conforming clubs aren't going to make an 18 turn into a 6, no matter what they do. So what's the point, other than to take the first step on the very slippery slope.

 

Where does it end? If a little cheating is ok, then just a little more is too. When is it too much? Why even start?

 

Call me old fashioned I guess...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me it really depends on if the equipment was at one time conforming or not. If you are buying equipment to "cheat" like a spin dr wedge or such it would bother me but if it is non conforming due to a rules change to me that is understandable. When I play someone who doesn't follow the guild lines of the rules it does make me feel like ther should be an astrix next to the score but I get over it and enjoy just being out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually do play some people with non conforming clubs. One or two even play a chipper. I no longer feel there is a measurable advantage to be gained from non conforming equipment, but if I could truly buy a game, I would. Fact of the matter is, there isn't, so it does not matter if the guy plays non conforming unless you let it get into your mind and become a believer.

 

Much more dangerous is the guy who is truly better than he looks, and they are many.

 

 

 

Shambles

According to what I have read a chipper is not illegial unless it has two sides but if that is the case why is a Bullseye type putter legal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is just the thread I was looking for! Thanks Rickles.

 

What a mess if this happens because how do you police it? Of coures I could care less what is going on when I play casual rounds - to date I hadn't though much about it in my weekly money game or league or the local tournaments that I played in - I've always assumed that the guys I'm playing with are using conforming equipment, carrying the proper number of clubs in their bag, etc.

 

If manufacturers start to release non-conforming equipment, now what? Of course I dont' care what a recreational player is doing but come on - how in the world are we ever going to police our league with 100 plus players teeing off from 2 in the afternoon until 5 or the money game that I play in where its us and not really run by anyone else? How about the upcoming city am? What are they going to do, have everyone send in their clubs the night before the tournament for inspection? It's nuts.

 

It's time now for the USGA to just pull it's head out of the sand and recognize that they need to free the PGA tour up to make its own set of rules (yes bifurification or however it's spelled) like all other major sports. Then it can focus its attention on simple rules for the rest of us. Simple, like you go look for your ball and can't find it you take a drop with a stroke penalty. Simple, like all equipment must be able to be swung and balls must be this size and weight. Simple, like any marks can be fixed on the green at any time (in fact we encourage you to fix them and then some.) Top, top amatures will adjust when it's time to switch over the rules that the pros play by - colleges use aluminum bats and the top players figure out how to use wood, the 3 point line is longer and court bigger in the NBA but guys seem to cope.

 

At first I was furious about the possibility of Manufacturers releasing non-conforming equipment because its going to cause issues for guys like me who want a fair fight at the level where we have a chance to compete - but now I think it's a great thing.

 

By the way unless its the ball that's illegal I'm thinking the gains won't be quite as spectacular as some would think.

Rev you brought up some good points on policeing the equipment on most equipment it takes a special machine to check the grooves and a skilled person to be able to interperpt the facts it also takes a specialized operator to determine the COR on drivers. In your case with the city am I don't know the solution maybe we will have to rely on intregrity of your playing competitors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hard and fast ...

 

For money, not for money, in competition, casual not in competition, it all doesn't matter to me.  There are rules.  Play by the rules !  They are an intricate part of golf !

 

If we want other, better gear, change the rules first !  But WHY would we ?  Only to buy more gear and make revenue for golf companies, full stop.  Why do we have to keep hitting farther and straighter.  It's all marketing BS anyway.  95% of the result is the golfer, not the equipment.

 

If golf companies want to make more money, stop the marketing BS, start real custom fitting, and deliver to spec instead of all the other hot air blowing that's going on !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would play against someone that had them, no problem at all for me head to head.  I would wonder why they had them in the first place, and I'd be keeping a pretty close eye on the person.  I mean hey, if playing non-conforming equipment doesn't bother you, you might feel the same about the other rules too.  I don't care much about your equipment, but I'm not playing a guy that fluffs up or betters his lie without it being clear from the get go that that is the rules of the day.

 

There's going to be big problem in tournaments and leagues and with handicaps as have already been pointed out.  I find it very disturbing that a major OEM would embrace this idea and my initial impression for myself is that I am very likely completely done with TaylorMade, as I view this as a huge disrespect to the game in general.  The very idea of it is offensive to me. The rules are the rules, if you don't like them, there are procedures to change them.  

 

I really don't see why anyone that is seeking to compete, even at the most basic level like say a friendly bet, would ever buy a non conforming club.  It is just asking for trouble.  I think this is pure lunacy on TM's part, the idea of releasing non-conforming equipment.  I can see myself and others avoiding the company entirely just to not have to deal with the extra scrutiny using TM clubs is going to bring.

 

Most of the guys in our group are at least somewhat aware of equipment rules and everyone polices each other.  I don't see any of our guys intentionally using and surely not buying a club they couldn't use all the time, and they wouldn't be able to use it in our events.  If they tried to use it in daily play they'd be tossing the club in the lake by the 9th hole after getting tired of hearing the "cheater" comments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an older wedge non conforming even to the 2010 rule. I never really put it in play. I'll try to sneak in 9holes with it comparing to my first generation Vokey SM and Callaway Jaws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no problem with it at all, but the people that are playing for money aren't playing with non conforming equipment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think for non conforming clubs to be a non issue and be highly successful for all players they need to seperate two different types of markets. Non conforming clubs could be a great idea and product for newer golfers who are looking to play recreationally. When I started to play golf more seriously a few years ago I started with 3 other people. Of the 4 of us, I am the last person still playing weekly and actually putting the time and effort into improving my game. I am sure I would get many different excuses from the quitters but at the end of the day none of us played during our youth and lessons are expenseive. It was honestly brutal getting through a round and looking at a score card with 8's, 9's, and 10's written and shooting 60+ for a round of 9 holes deters new comers and has been a serious hinder to the sport. If non conforming clubs would help individuals hit a ball straighter and longer off the tee, it would help people who start the game continue to play. Like others have said though, this will not help anyone drastically improve there short game or eliminate 3 putts so total handicaps won't drop as drastically as we may be led to believe, but atleast give golfers that feeling of a great "golf shot" which may be just a big enough "win" for them to keep playing.

 

The second market that becomes an issue to a majority of players is low handicap golfers using it as a way to increase a competitive advantage. Non conforming clubs should be easily identifiable and a new handicap should be calculated. The argument to me of the "slippery slope" that confides with using clubs that are non conforming is non existent. I don't think non conforming clubs would be the ice breaker towards someone who wants to gain an advantage through cheating. The dreaded foot wedge, adjusting lies, "misunderstanding" proper scoring and drop zones for unplayable shots, and sandbagging a handicap are already being done if someone wants to cheat. Giving someone a non conforming club should provide no advantage with a handicap calculated using scores with the non conforming equipment. At the end of the day I still feel like this is a non issue with this market as I am sure the non conforming clubs will have something easily identifiable on them that would show what they are. One item that would most likely need to be eliminated would be items like longest drives during tournaments if drastic improvements could be made in accuracy and yardage though.

 

Maybe I am just dense on the subject, but what advantage am I given if I go from a 15 to a 12 handicap due to non conforming equipment and follow the same rules as you a 6 handicap with conforming clubs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're using non-conforming clubs you technically don't have a handicap because it was gained illegally.

 

It will be what it will be - Given that I regularly play against100 or so people on a weekly  basis I have no doubt that I'm already playing with someone using non-conforming equipment.  Frankly they probably don't realize it -

 

There's this guy whom I often practice with who is a member of the Hickory Shaft Society.  He's in his mid 60's.  He was a DI player, turned pro, taught and used to frequent the mini-tours.  Interesting cat.  He tours around the country with guys who will only play hickory shafted equipment. 

 

I don't know that I'd want to go back there but consider the advantage a guy with modern equipment and ball has over a guy playing with this stuff.  This guy is a pro, when he uses modern equipment and we play from the same tees he beats me like a drum, when he uses his hickory shafted clubs the tables are turned - well at least we're even or I might be a little better - way better tee to green.

 

So equipment does matter.  But this is an extreme example.  I'm thinking that like most things the better the player the larger the gain using non-conforming stuff.  I'm also thinking that someone who would use non-conforming equipment is not going to care that his handicap is gained illegal and so those comments about handicaps are relevant even if they shouldn't be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a Rick Reilly fan by any stretch, but anyone who cares enough about this topic to post should really read the "Who's Your Caddy" chapter about Dewey Tomko. Not sure how much embellishment is sewn into the prose, but it was a fun read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand it would be considered an illegal handicap since it used illegal clubs, but at the end of the day if the goal is to put the ball in the hole and the rest of the rules are held constant besides equipment; it would still show an accurate representation for an adjusted non conforming handicap. What holds more ground; equipment or skill? Equipment won't ever make up for skill so an "illegal" handicap could still be used as an accurate measure for competition or money game that utilizes handicaps. We aren't talking about switching to paint can sized holes so no equipment will make up for a bad short game or bad/inconsistent putting.

 

Maybe my thought of what equipment would do for a player is skewed. But an example of how I think non conforming equipment would help is as follows:

 

Par 4 - 390 yd hole

Golfer tees off and slices the ball into deep rough, trees, etc for 280 yards. Punches out and moves ball forward to 50 yards from the pin in the middle of the fairway. Third shot, hits it on the green and two putts for bogey with conforming equipment.

 

Golfer with non coforming equipment hits the ball 330 in the middle of the fairway. Hits approach shot on the green and two putts for par.

 

I would even say thats a stretch that equipment alone will gain 50 yards and eliminate a slice/fade but say it happens. At the end of the day a handicap could be measured off both of those scores and adjusted accordingly. Like I said earlier though I am pretty dense and could be missing something. What about that second scenerio is bad for golf or would change your thought process of playing someone for money?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an older wedge non conforming even to the 2010 rule. I never really put it in play. I'll try to sneak in 9holes with it comparing to my first generation Vokey SM and Callaway Jaws.

 

Played 9 with the non conforming 57* wedge. I was able to hit a few practice shots comparing with my usual wedges.

The wedge definitely had more stopping power than my 58* Callaway Jaws and 56* first gen Vokey Spin Milled. Hard to compare really to my Fourteen V3 60* because the 60* had the added advantage or more loft as well.

 

I do see would be that I would now be able to comfortably go back to a 3 wedge system, pw-52-57 rather than the pw-50-56-60 I generally use. I could then add a hybrid somewhere or a strong 3 wood/thriver because my weakness is off the tee.

 

One thing I did ponder is that the better the player, the better he can take advantage of the non conforming wedge. I'm pretty good 60yards in and the non conforming wedge had me throwing darts with no fear of slight roll out (which I get from my 56 when the green is a little firmer than normal) and no fear of catching it high on the face and ending up 10 yards short (which is my miss with a full swing 60*). That being said I guess the same advantage could be gained by a good driver using a non conforming driver. He gets to hit the hotspots more and hit it longer more often than me who would probably miss than hot spot most of the time.

 

Nice experience but I will now go back to my conforming wedges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uniformly painted bright pink with "SISSY" or "BUBBA" printed in large capitals !

 

Non conforming clubs should be easily identifiable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uniformly painted bright pink with "SISSY" or "BUBBA" printed in large capitals !

haha, be careful attacking pink golf clubs ... you may have someone of repute come after you lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand it would be considered an illegal handicap since it used illegal clubs, but at the end of the day if the goal is to put the ball in the hole and the rest of the rules are held constant besides equipment; it would still show an accurate representation for an adjusted non conforming handicap. What holds more ground; equipment or skill? Equipment won't ever make up for skill so an "illegal" handicap could still be used as an accurate measure for competition or money game that utilizes handicaps. We aren't talking about switching to paint can sized holes so no equipment will make up for a bad short game or bad/inconsistent putting.

 

Maybe my thought of what equipment would do for a player is skewed. But an example of how I think non conforming equipment would help is as follows:

 

Par 4 - 390 yd hole

 

Golfer tees off and slices the ball into deep rough, trees, etc for 280 yards. Punches out and moves ball forward to 50 yards from the pin in the middle of the fairway. Third shot, hits it on the green and two putts for bogey with conforming equipment.

 

Golfer with non coforming equipment hits the ball 330 in the middle of the fairway. Hits approach shot on the green and two putts for par.

 

I would even say thats a stretch that equipment alone will gain 50 yards and eliminate a slice/fade but say it happens. At the end of the day a handicap could be measured off both of those scores and adjusted accordingly. Like I said earlier though I am pretty dense and could be missing something. What about that second scenerio is bad for golf or would change your thought process of playing someone for money?

 

 

Given that the average gofler hits the ball 210 and the average single digit golfer hits it 240 I'm thinking this is just a random example that has nothing to do with reality.

 

To the main point - I agree - if the person using the illegal equipment will at least post his scores who cares?  The problem I still deal with is that the tournaments I aspire to win are gross events or at least I'm hoping to win the gross portion of them not the net portion, I don't even know if I'd consider winning the Net a win.  So, if someone is using illegal equipment then I'm out of luck - it's just the chance I have to take - what am I going to do?  Search the bags of every golfer at next months City Am?  I have to assume that they are not using non-conforming equipment.  No one is going to police them so that's the way it will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this talk of NC clubs just kills me. Other than more sales, what is it really going to do? Will a bad swing magically turn good? You still gave to hit a little ball with a little head on the end of a stick... It's still going to be hard. High clappers aren't suddenly going to hit straight drives 300 yards.

 

And for what? So they enjoy the game more? So instead of shooting 130, they shoot 120? Is that going to be more fun?

 

High clappers are already very difficult to beat because the margin for a single capper is slim to get any help on their net score. A high capper gets a lot of strokes and merely needs to have a decent day to win

 

They already make easy to hit clubs, they are called shovels and volkswagon s on stix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to what I have read a chipper is not illegial unless it has two sides but if that is the case why is a Bullseye type putter legal?

 

 

That's also as I remember the rule. Unfortunately someone told me they removed the chipper entirely but was unable to explain why, and I didn't care enough to look it up or verify because I don't use a chipper. There have been many changes to the rules over the years and I no longer feel the need to religously keep up with the changes.

 

BTW, a two sided chipper is real handy for getting a ball away from a tree that is standing on the wrong side of the ball. A two sided Bullseye can aproximate the same utility but suffers considerably because 3.5* loft cannot serve as well as 21* loft under such conditions.

 

 

 

Shambles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shambles I am like you on that I have not checked the rule specifically because I don't use a chipper. The guys that I know who use a chipper don't give two hoots about the USGA they are retired playing with their own groups and having fun. The backasswards shot that you mentioned I used to play a 4 iron lefthanded when I hit blades. I can also do the Ping putter toe trick and the flipped over wedge shot. Actually I practice these shots because it is fun to me and when I was younger I stayed in trouble a lot. I have gotten shorter and straighter with age

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...