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Wildthing

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  1. Learning/debating golf biomechanics is a hobby of mine from an academic standpoint only.
  2. This is the post that got me banned from golfwrx. It was the email I received from Jon Sinclair Director Of TPI . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have asked a TPI 3D expert for his opinion and highlighted some important sentences. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The wrist are very complexed. You have to look at both to really determine how the club is being manipulated. First of all a position in and of itself neither opens or closes the club face. So these players having flexed lead wrist does not mean they have closed the club. The grip has a lot to do with what is happening as well. As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension. I am talking about world class players here. After club transition flexed players will tend to move toward extension a bit before going hard back to flexion. I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started. This is a tricky measurement though. AMM does not do the shoulder girdles so that can alter it some. Moving toward flexion closes the club face at the top but then acts and opens it at impact. Pronation/Supination takes the in and out of plane until you get more ulnar deviation then lead supination/ trail pronation closes it. I would need to do a complete study but I would doubt highly that there is less or more forearm movement in a flexed wrist over a extended one. If you are talking about higher or lower ROC I would also say that is a myth. It is what people want to believe. It fits nicely with a narrative.
  3. Although I've spent literally 1000's of hours looking at golf biomechanics , the only swing action that has worked for my old inflexible body is something that Shawn Clement termed the 'Centrifugal Pump'. I'm not sure he understands the physics or reasoning behind it but obviously, after so many years in teaching, he has intuitively found a way that seems more natural for some golfers (ie. me) to perform. Pure rotary type swings , although probably the most efficient in terms of unwasted motion, takes a lot of flexibility and require a steady 'centre of motion' (ie. relatively stable pivot , where the centre of the swing doesn't move 'up/down' and 'side/side'). So here he is demonstrating it , legs extending and squatting causing head to move up and down, pelvic tilt angles not completely stable. But it works for me and I've probably played the best golf in the last 2 years (without too much strain on lower back for some reason).
  4. Shawn Clement is a different but more natural method and works for me from about 20-50 yds.
  5. I agree that wrx may have some good 'teachers' but imho they show weaknesses in explaining the biomechanics of the golf swing. There is an 'art' to teaching using external focus cues but they should be careful about trying to explain cause and effect of the golf swing (especially if they are not qualified in human anatomy or physics). For example , I do not use complex mechanics to try and improve my golf swing (ie. to mimic what the pros might do) . From what I've learned already, It would take many years to try and replicate the mechanics used by PGA pros without any guarantees that it wouldn't break down as your body ages. The accuracy, precision and timing required to meet theoretical optimal mechanics is incredibly difficult to achieve and retain. I would suggest that recreational golfers that do not have the time/money to ingrain any 'theoretical' optimal swing mechanics consider using external focus cues to assist their game (hear this wonderful podcast from Dr Gabriele Wulf below).
  6. If you look at Phil Cheethams 3D graphs on 94 pga pros you will find all of them rotate their arms. I can post a 3D graph of Jon Rahm proving he rotates his lead forearm more at impact than it was at address. He is a prime example of a golfer that bows his wrist at the top of his backswing and retains some of that bow into impact. If he was using the 'RMM' move , then surely the 3D graph would show less forearm rotation than at address. Why is it a sin to defend an opinion based on facts/evidence? Is that a good reason to ban someone from a golf forum? I'm willing to listen and alter my point of view if anyone can provide proof that this 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' does limit rotation of the forearms.
  7. Why not just have a strong grip to keep the clubface squarer to the club path? I suspect the pros need to assess each golfer in terms of their athletic ability before advocating this move because a pivot driven swing requires a lot of flexibility. But my main doubt about this move is that 'palmar flexing' (or bowing the wrist ), especially as the club moves from P6-P7, opens the clubface relative to target line, and also angulates the clubshaft inwards away from the target line. Try it yourself , get into impact fix position, then just 'palmar flex' your wrist (without twisting it). The club shaft angulates 'back and in', the clubface opens to the ball target line. To square the clubface without too much shaft lean by impact, you will have to rotate your forearms even more (than if you hadn't bowed it in the first instance). The other doubt is his use of something called 'Twistaway' because that is what his 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' is all about . As well as palmar flexing (bowing) the lead wrist he is also advocating a 'twisting ' move which involves clenching/torquing the fingers around the grip. Now that DOES close the clubface relative to the target line and club path if you can keep your fingers partially clenched/torqued all the way to impact (ie. just using your pivot). But the force on your hands when you swing a driver can be about 100 lbs force nearing impact and its impossible to keep your fingers clenched/torqued (unless you are amazingly strong). So any 'Twistaway' effect (ie. what really closes the clubface relative to club path) dissipates as the pull forces from the 'shaft tension' on your hands increase in the late downswing. However , if you've retained your bowed wrist into impact all that's going to do is angulate the club 'back and in' (as I said previously) and you are going to have to rotate your arms more to square the clubface (if you want to avoid a lot of forward shaft lean at impact). Hope this makes sense!!!
  8. Interesting video but I think Tyler Ferrell is resurrecting this 'move' not to cure an OTT move (or slice) but to promote a more pivot driven swing where one minimizes the degree of forearm rolling in the late downswing.
  9. If you don't mind me asking, why did they want you to do this move?
  10. I corrected my original post and struck through the word conscious (probably incorrect wording by me). Yes your right, its called the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move'. The people who banned me are always promoting TF's book , academy and you-tube videos. I've never said anything abusive or derogatory and just debated findings that question their instruction logic. What makes it so laughable is that Tyler Ferrell was involved in work done on TPI graphs (Titleist Performance Institute) using 3D technology systems and has used the pga pro-golfers graphs to develop his theories like the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move' . Yet when I posted comments from an email I received from the director of TPI which contradicted TF's opinions, they immediately banned me. Some mysterious things happening in the golf world!
  11. I've noticed that there are quite a lot of posters in a certain well known Golf forum 'plugging' something called the 'MOTORCYCLE MOVE'. They are actively promoting people to buy Tyler Ferrells 'Stock Tour Swing' book or registering and prescribing to his 'Golf Smart Academy' website. In simple terms the 'motorcycle move' advocates that the golfer bows/twists their wrists in such a way that it closes the clubface relative to its path somewhere in their swing (mainly during transition/ downswing) to limit the conscious need to rotate the arms later in the downswing to square the clubface by impact . Basically, once wrist bowing/twisting done to close the face relative to path , just pivot through impact using your body rotation. I and other posters have basically provided proof and expert opinion that totally questions this golf instruction because it actually does the 'opposite' of what it claims (which is awful for golf instruction purposes) . It can be shown that the bowing of the wrist actually opens the clubface to the 'ball -target line' when approaching impact and that the golfer will have to rotate their lead forearm even more to square the clubface (if they retain a bowed wrist to impact). Now the conundrum! As soon as one posts anything that questions this instruction, they are immediately banned from that golf forum forever for 'abusive behaviour'. It almost seems that there is some secret agreement between Tyler Ferrell and the forum marshalls to prevent any logical debate that could have a detrimental effect on the sales of his book or subscription to his website (no matter how ruinous it could be to recreational golfers mechanics). People are paying good money for possibly misleading/inaccurate instruction and that is a disgrace. Is this the norm for golf forums , to quell debate that might effect the marketing and sales of a 'fad' golf instruction product? Hopefully MYGOLFSPY will always remain unbiased and relish free debate without retribution (as long as it is done in a respectable and courteous manner).
  12. There are some very interesting videos by Dr Sasho Mackenzie that may help enlighten any golf academics concerning the 'kinetics' of the golf swing. Actually , you might find it quite counterintuitive to your current beliefs. By the time the club has reached horizontal in the downswing (for virtually all pro swings), the clubshaft is 'forward bending' and this means that the right hand cannot be pushing like a lever (physics says it can't). In fact the angular velocity of the club is so great that the hands are actually resisting (ie. negative torque) against the 'pull' of the club's angular momentum. However , any right arm extension into impact can still push 'right thumb heel pad' on the base of the left thumb (if you are using a Vardon grip) which can help push the lead hand (and handle) faster 'around its hub path track' . The problem with any excessive push pressure on that 'right thumb heel pad' is that the 'left hand/handle' could be pushed too far forward before club/ball impact. Also , depending on the direction of that push force (not in line with the COG of club) , it will most likely also cause a negative torque which can slow down the angular velocity of the clubhead (although imho, I can't imagine it would slow the clubhead by any appreciable amount). Basically after the clubshaft has gone into forward bend state in the late downswing , the golfer is just holding on , while his body pivot is just reacting to the inertial pull of the club on his arms (but it's also stabilizing the body so that its not pulled off balance) . The pivot is also being used to direct the moving distal segments of the body (including the club) in the correct alignment before impact. However, there is nothing to stop a golfer to apply a pull force through/across the handle in the late downswing to increase clubhead speed (maybe add an extra 5mph). People call it 'parametric acceleration' but it's really a 'moment of force' caused by a force that is not aligned through the COG of the clubhead. The problem with doing those sudden pulls is that you have to time it correctly so that you can still hit the ball at the right time and on the sweet spot (Lexi Thompson is pretty good at this). Here are the videos by Sasho https://vimeo.com/158419250 https://vimeo.com/158856998 Here is the article from Dave Tutelman explaining how bend on clubshaft affects the torque on the grip/hands (look for title called 'Shaft Bend'). He stated this when he analysed Lee Comeaux's swing kinetics (ie. 'right hand hit' ). https://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/handhit.php
  13. Your head moving up and down is quite natural depending on how you pivot. When I swing in 'perpetuity' with an external focus on throwing my clubface to a target or through an intermediate target , or 'cut dandelions' with the edge of the face, my head bobs up and down quite a bit . I never used to allow that for the first 25 years of playing golf due to some pre-conceived notion about mechanics of the golf swing (ie. got to keep the centre of the swing stable). Guess what , the research findings state there is no stable center of the golf swing , it moves all over the place (and a lot of the time it's moving outside of the perimeters of your body) based on various complex movements. Although the shoulder socket does become the center of the swing close to impact if you have any semblance of secondary tilt. Check out this old Shawn Clement video because it changed my whole perception of the golf swing and imho I've been playing my best 'fearless' strain-free recreational golf in the last 30 years . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn8CmDNi0UM
  14. It now looks that I have misinterpreted (sigh) those graphs - see below. I thought they showed a total average over the PGA and LPGA samples tested but in fact they were individual golfer profiles. The 2 graphs below are just for individual male and female golfer , but the table below shows the range of values found for all PGA and LPGA males tested. They do show that at the top end of the ranges that LPGA women have faster rotations of pelvis/thorax/arms/club Example : Male Pelvis : 540 , Male Thorax: 797, Male Lead Arm: 1090, Male Club: 2399 Female Pelvis: 715 , Female Thorax: 1092 , Female Lead Arm: 1417 , Female Club: 2679 But PGA men still drive the ball longer on average than LPGA as NOODLE3872 has shown above. So what does this tell us? That increased body segment rotational speeds is not enough to prove cause and effect of high clubhead speed at impact. Addendum 19th Nov 18 I have found another research article which contained more detail than the table shown above. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5292347_Swing_Kinematics_for_Male_and_Female_Pro_Golfers So looking at the results we can now make a more refined opinion about what is happening between LPGA and PGA golfers. An obvious and stark major difference is the rate at which the wrists are uncocking and the timing of that uncocking. It seems PGA 'probably' hold lag longer and then release later in such a way that they optimise a higher clubhead speed closer to impact. LPGA create similar clubhead speeds in their downswing but it peaks earlier before impact. Therefore the clubhead speed is reducing more before impact than PGA men and probably explains the difference in driving distances. The author of the research points to the fact that LPGA women suffer twice as many injuries to their wrists compared to PGA men which suggests that wrist uncocking is of prime importance in LPGA women (but where they have some physical limitations on how quickly they can facilitate that uncocking action).
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