Beakbryce

I haven't but if they have a demo near me I will go try them out. Thank you.

I work with one of their reps when I am buying clubs and he said not on the pre-owned site. That may have changed. Regardless, I always ask. Also AARP membership, best looking guy in my neighborhood, golf nut, MGS tester, and anything else I can think of! and, before you ask, the best looking guy in my neighborhood gets the biggest laugh!

It's all good. But then... At the beginning of this year I wasn't really looking for any new clubs. Lucked into deals for 8-9-PW when the Rogue ST irons went on sale with an additional military discount. Then I was just fooling around and took the Odyssey questionnaire on what putter I would play and ended up buying an Eleven. Thank you to the Gods of my ancestors and the Putting Gods! That putter and the new clam shell grip I found online at the same time has cured my yips. Actually making some good putts. Maybe a GBB 19 5 hybrid?

Thank you for the info. I am not actually looking for a new driver. My Epic is fine. However, if I can feel it in my hands I would try it, so it is on my list. I had just noted that the sound of the newer drivers was muted thud. From the discussion, it looks like a majority of golfers prefer that so probably why the manufacturers are going that way. I like to feel the hit in my hands so sound isn't as big a factor for me. If the driver was 15-20 yards longer, I wouldn't really care how it sounds... Maybe that's the secret the manufacturers have found in their testing. Everyone can live with a muted thud if the driver outperforms significantly what they have, but if it is too loud, they lose a significant portion of buyers who just won't purchase a loud driver. I have always waited several generations between drivers. They all advertise longer, but my perception is they aren't all that much longer over the last few years, but they are definitely getting straighter. Maybe that's a topic for another day.

Mostly Titliest Pro V's and Vice pro plus. MGS has shown that higher compression balls work better for every ball speed and I concur with that as I hit a lot of different balls. We find a lot of balls on our course and I have tried them all. Interestingly, I found a Pinnacle Soft the other day and hit it. I kind of thought it was an oxymoron as Pinnacles are rocks. I hit it because I had just read that it would pass the new ball test proposed by the USGA. It went nowhere. I only hit it once so didn't think about the sound.

I agree. If it can't be felt in the hands, I am not into the club.

I started with wood woods. Maybe the sound is what drew me to the original GBB when it first came out. What a revelation sound wise. I still have that club, maybe I will take it out in the next few weeks. Probably won't be as impressed.

I like a rifle shot sound so you may be on to something there. I hate the dull thud. I play with lots of people with different drivers and most times I couldn't tell you how the other drivers sound, it's just not memorable. I wonder if the companies have focus groups that listen to driver sounds and vote for the one they would like to play. Would be interesting to "hear" those results. You are right in that with the metallic sound it may be easier to figure out where it hit on the club head as it gets tinnier enhancing "feel". If it is a dull thud all over it just doesn't work. I also wonder if this is a swing speed issue. Want a larger bell sound, hit the bell harder! Gosh I hope that isn't true because I am at that age where the swing speeds begin to decline.

It struck me in the last few days that either I lack any feel and sound discrimination, or the hot new clubs just don't appeal to me. If you have read any of my posts about drivers, the realization that I love my years old Epic driver is well, epic. I just went through the Mizuno long game review process and the driver left me cold. I wasn't into the sound which I felt was not memorable and couldn't feel where the ball hit on the clubface. I passed them on to test to @Silver Fawkes and while he just got them, he already appears to love the sound and possibly the feel. You might want to follow his review as he tries out the driver, 3 wood, and 4 hybrid as it already looks like he is going to be a strong reviewer. Anyway, back to this discussion. When the Stealth first came out I hit one at a demo day and wasn't impressed. I had a chance over Christmas to hit the Ping 430 driver and the Paradym X driver. Both clubs are highly rated for my swing speed. I wasn't enthusiastic about the sound or feel of any of these clubs. This is pretty weird as I have always liked Callaway woods and have felt in the last several years that Ping is building nice woods. I was really hoping in particular the Paradym X would blow my socks off because I have started looking for a reasonable price on Callaway pre-owned and am now rethinking that notion. I'm hoping I can blame the lack of sound to my years being around jets and guns, but feel? Really trying to find an excuse. Please let me know if you have started to discern less feel and sound from the new generation drivers or it's just me! I hate to see a grown man cry, but I can take it.

Looks like you are well on your way. Very informative write up so far. Love the numbers. That spin rate is what killed the clubs for me. I can't wait to see the optimized profile with a shaft fit to you. I found your discussion of the sound fascinating. Maybe someday we retake the PAT together!

yes... all the time. It works. Although I use a regular divot tool.

Required reading in the Marines when I was in. Have to believe there is at least one Marine in the USGA hierarchy. It has way more applicability to business than say "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" and other required reading for MBA students. Just saying. The USGA learned they didn't have the War Chest they needed when Solheim came after them over square grooves. Taking the long approach they now have loads of money and scads of media attention over the new ball test. Just the fact that this thread appears to be one of the longest in MGS history shows they have accomplished a good part of their goal, meaning buy in and capitulation from the people that matter even though the consensus seems to be most of us peasants don't want it. Classic Tzu. I think they have already won this battle without taking any kind of hit, leaving them to enact other stuff sooner rather than later. "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." I would be curious how many dues paying members of the USGA don't renew. My guess is not a lot.

This topic is way to heavy but... Stop keeping score. Respect the process and not the result. Stop bearing down for the rest of the round after a bad shot because that makes each and every following shot critical, when it isn't. It's just one of many. So many... You are overthinking a process that may have many thoughts during setup but, and this is critical, just one thought during the swing. If you have one problem club, hit your drive and then hit from that clubs yardage until you can't stand it anymore, and then hit it again. Whatever you do, don't go mindlessly whacking a bucket of balls with that club. Hit with other clubs and hit it every third or fourth shot. Or you could just get that club measured to make sure it still meets specs or buy a new one. Just saying. If it is more than one club, like all your woods, or long irons, or wedges, seek help. Lots and lots of help. Professional help. Your golfing buddies probably have plenty of tips. Surely that is a better way to go than worrying about all that memory stuff you are hoping to conquer. I will tell you that in 5 years time, whatever is holding you back now will not be present then. Please cease your worry over the present and worry about what it will be in 5 years because it will be something else entirely! Ok, so mostly tongue in cheek here. But the process and not worrying about score is critical to getting better. To many people write to much stuff about golf being in the 5 inches between your ears. Even if it is 99% mental, you MUST learn to respect the 1% that isn't.

Just an aside. Love this scorecard with pace of play.

Course rating procedures were developed by who again? Trained raters visit courses and evaluate them using specific guidelines provided by the USGA. Subjectively, it appears the guidelines are based largely on yardage instead of agronomy. They do not take into account todays agronomy, course conditions being what they are now on even the least kept up courses as opposed to general condition of courses back when. Additionally, pro golfers are not scratch players. Apples and oranges. The only way this comment works is if the trained raters went back and rated the courses as they played agronomically, not just yardage, in whatever year you want to compare. Have to believe that shot values back when would include fairway cuts and green speeds that would make the courses harder which would negate the distance difference and the strokes number. Since this isn't going to happen we are as you say, being subjective. However, logic has to intrude somewhere in this discussion. If you don't think it was difficult to play golf in the 70's or 80's, hitting to shaggy fairways and putting greens at 6-8 on the stimp meter, you aren't going to believe the course rating of today is pretty mystical in comparison. Clearly you won't believe that the runways pros hit into today are responsible for the additional 17 yards to correspond with the additional 300 yards of course length and your 1.3 stroke difference. Again logically, many of us believe the USGA has brought this on themselves by killing golf courses for the US Open to obtain hard and fast playing fields which exacerbates and skews the distance "problem".

Mostly keep the wrist quiet while chipping. Have some stock yardages: 30 and 40 yards=58 wedge 50 yards=54 wedge 60 yards=50 wedge Place the ball just inside the back foot and use a straight back straight through putt stroke that is slightly longer. Hands ahead with a square clubface. Not much if any body rotation. This is a good running chip method for me. If one doesn't stay down though this shot it is a shank waiting to happen. Practice it every day. Can use it for low ball flight for longer than 60 yards but that requires a lot of practice and feel figuring out yardages. When pitching, break the wrists with the ball maybe an inch forward of the chipping spot which gets height and more spin. Play this with more of the bounce. I am with the group that uses the body to turn through the ball, facilitated by lifting my right heel a little. If I am short sided with a bunker or hazard, I make sure to get it on the green and take the bogey if I miss the putt. Probably the only time I don't go for it when in trouble. Difference between pitching and chipping for me is the height of the ball. I chip most of the time because our greens are open to the front and at least one side and it is easier to adjust the stock yardage for green speed than figure out bounce bounce stop.

Thank you.

Until you run out of tees. Have a good buddy hitting from some of the forward tees already and due to health problems, still can't hit a par 4 in 2. My wife plays from the start of the fairway. Yes we are old. Doesn't mean we want to stop golfing. I will happily start some day from 150 yards if that is what it takes. But I wouldn't mind putting that off. There is a reason they don't show where the ceremonial opening drives at Augusta actually land. They aren't going all that far. Nicklaus has been going on and on for years about how long the golf ball is, but what does he hit for that ceremonial drive? Most of the previous pages contain a lot of opinions based on where the individual is right now distance wise, maybe time to think about how everyone is doing. The real problem is the USGA/R&A aren't stopping with the ball. First, we only have the USGA's word that will only be 5 yards. How do they know? Second, we won't know until the actual balls are for sale. If as some believe the change is 10-15 yards and is not just the driver, how would we all feel then? Of course, by 2030 it may be no change from what we hit now. Technology wise, if the major ball companies come up with a ball that is shorter for the pro's but longer for us, that would be too cool. Nobody knows. Third, the cumulative effect of all the changes the USGA is going to make will make a difference at some point. 5 yards here, spinier ball there, smaller clubheads everywhere. They have already said other things, particularly the driver, are going to be looked at. Just about every innovation has been swallowed whole by the golfing public, from featheries to gutta, to balata, to the solid ball. Bigger irons, even bigger drivers. Arguably, golf is easier with each change, but is it? If technology could solve the problem, we would all be sticks. I don't envy younger players who may very well be thinking back when they are 70 that they used to KILL the ball. Nostalgia, so cool. The 2028 test will use a robot that swings a driver at 125 mph, launching the ball at 183 mph ball speed, with 11 degrees of launch and 2220 rpm of spin. What if they change that to the driver ball combo can't spin less than 3500 RPM with all other factors the same? More backspin, more side spin. More height, more wind effect. Or the test driver is set at 9 degrees with a higher spinning ball. I'm sure there is some combo that makes the ball sidespin a lot. Sure, technology could come up with good launch characteristics for any test combo off a driver, oh wait, the 400CC driver? The USGA/R&A have stated they want the game to change back to the way it was. To fully restore the game to what it was, the ball needs to go drastically offline unless perfectly struck. I remember those days and they sucked. I remember when Top Flight balls were a revelation. Not only cheaper than a Titleist 100 Professional, but straighter and longer. Good times. The orange ball was really something. Nostalgia! Does anyone really want to be forced to hit at 80% of their potential to keep the ball from landing in the grandstands of the nearest NFL Stadium? Because that's coming. I really think the governing bodies read Sun Tzu. We may all wake up in 15 years and wonder how we let this happen. Or, maybe not.

6 irons 8-PW, 50, 54, 58 wedges 1,3,5,heaven woods 4,6,7 hybrids 6 hybrid is the best club in my bag. 7 right behind but hooks 20 yards occasionally????

I don't think most people are disputing the graph that tour players are hitting it longer. Stats are stats. What they are disputing is whether that has made a material difference in the actual scoring and is the increase due to other than technology, i.e. course setup and better athletes. There are actual numbers to look at and scoring is not subjective. Course records, strokes gained, cut line, etc, aren't varying that much over the 20-25 years of increased distance the USGA is using for their one stat. If it was a problem, course records, winning totals, etc, should follow the same progression along the same trend line as the distance. How many new course records were made last year? Looked up the course record for pros at Pebble Beach and Tom Kite set the record in the mid 80's. It has been matched but not broken. The course record by a non pro was set in 2017 and who knows what the setup was for that round. The R&A have made a big deal that the Old Course now has a number of drivable par 4 holes yet the course record was set in 2015. Really a problem?

That's next.

8 drives today within 2 yards of the wet muddy gouge in the fairway. Missed one fairway. Nothing rolled much. I would love to hit on courses where 30 yards of rollout is the norm. I would go back to the back tees.

This is the question though, does the change have to be a technological change or a course setup and design change? From my point of view, I don't care if there are sufficient hazards to take the driver out of a pro's hand but leaves plenty of space for me to whale away. The pro has 14 clubs, let him use the driver at peril or one of the other 13. I am not advocating nor would I like it either if that was all the driving holes, but the Ryder Cup setup duplicated during more PGA events would suit me just fine. The TV producers pick and choose what holes to show, if they don't want to show holes where the driver isn't the automatic choice off the tee they don't have to. People talk about returning to shot value and more than a wedge in to the green, easier and better to do it with course setup than draconian measures that affect 99% of golfers who haven't caused the problem. I guarantee I could set up a PGA Tour course that would be just as interesting on TV and make long hitters pay if they aren't strategic. Something as simple as growing the fairway to the first cut of rough height past 300 yards, like I play everyday, and wet to boot, would be godawful easy. Grass just needs to be long enough so flyers are the norm.

Not to be a rascal, as I am 71, I am here to tell you that if you are still hitting it 225 in 7 years...!

I agree. You only have to look at the lessons learned from the Luke Donald set up of the course for the Ryder Cup to realize that US pro golfers have gone too far to bomb and gouge. Widely reported the course was set up to take the wedge out of the US hands and force shots in to the green from beyond 175 yards. Predictable loss.