Reference point for penalty relief

[AmateurStatus]

Quick question about where a player would get relief in this situation.  Assume the area around the water in the picture is a red penalty area. 

Scenario 1: When hitting from point A the ball goes in the water somewhere along the dotted black line. The reference point for a penalty drop or back on the line relief would be point B, correct?

Scenario 2: If the ball carries the water to point C but rolls back into the water, is the reference point C or B?  If point C itself happens to be dry land but is still in a penalty area (i.e. an area of grass that is between the spray painted red line and the water) would this force the reference point back to B or can the player move horizontally along point C to find a point no closer to the hole and outside of the spray painted red line?

 

 

[Josh Parker]

This is from the USGA website.

Penalty Areas

Relief from a Red or Yellow Penalty Area

Q.How do I take relief from a yellow or red penalty area?

A.When you take relief from a penalty area, you get one penalty stroke. For yellow penalty areas, you have two relief options. For red penalty areas, you have three relief options (the same two relief options as you do for yellow, plus one additional option.) For a yellow penalty area, you may take relief by dropping into a relief area using (1) the spot at which your last stroke was made under stroke and distance (see Rule 17.1d(1)) or (2) the back-on-the-line relief procedure (see Rule 17.1d(2)). For a red penalty area, you have the two options above for a yellow penalty area, plus an additional option to take lateral relief. Lateral relief allows you to drop a ball into a relief area measured from where your ball last crossed the edge of red penalty area. From that reference point, you are allowed to drop outside the penalty area and anywhere within two club-lengths of that spot, no nearer to the hole (see Rule 17.1d(3)).

[DaveP043]

In simple terms, the Reference Point for Lateral Relief (Red Penalty Area only) is the point where the path of the ball LAST crossed the Penalty Area limit, per 17.1d(3).  Regarding your second situation, if the ball lands over the water but not out of the Penalty Area, B is still the reference point.  Its important to understand that even if your ball DID land outside the Penalty Area and roll back in, its possible that there's no acceptable Relief Area, no place that's within two clublengths of C, outside the Penalty Area, and not closer to the hole.  It all depends on the location of the Hole and the geometry of the PA line.  Or your Relief Area may be only a few inches deep, with high vegetation in the backswing.  Or you might, in some rare cases, be allowed to drop on the Putting Green. 

Interestingly (or maybe not) with the 2023 Rules, when taking back-on-the-line relief there's no Reference Point or Relief Area until you actually drop your ball.  You MUST drop on the line, and the Relief Area extends 1 clublength from the point where the ball hits the ground.

[funkyjudge]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

In simple terms, the Reference Point for Lateral Relief (Red Penalty Area only) is the point where the path of the ball LAST crossed the Penalty Area limit, per 17.1d(3).  Regarding your second situation, if the ball lands over the water but not out of the Penalty Area, B is still the reference point.  Its important to understand that even if your ball DID land outside the Penalty Area and roll back in, its possible that there's no acceptable Relief Area, no place that's within two clublengths of C, outside the Penalty Area, and not closer to the hole.  It all depends on the location of the Hole and the geometry of the PA line.  Or your Relief Area may be only a few inches deep, with high vegetation in the backswing.  Or you might, in some rare cases, be allowed to drop on the Putting Green. 

Interestingly (or maybe not) with the 2023 Rules, when taking back-on-the-line relief there's no Reference Point or Relief Area until you actually drop your ball.  You MUST drop on the line, and the Relief Area extends 1 clublength from the point where the ball hits the ground.

You beat me to it, Dave. I was just about to type the same thing that you did. In situation #2, the ball still never carried the penalty area, and thus the relief (or, according to current rules, the drop area) is still at point B.

In both scenarios, you may also re-tee and hit from the spot of your original shot that did not cross the penalty area, taking a one-stroke penalty, correct?

[DaveP043]

58 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

In both scenarios, you may also re-tee and hit from the spot of your original shot that did not cross the penalty area, taking a one-stroke penalty, correct?

Stroke and Distance penalty relief is available any time, for any reason.  Its listed as one of the options in Rule 17 (Penalty Area) and Rule 19 (Unplayable), but 18.1 says you may take S&D any time.  

[AmateurStatus]

20 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

In simple terms, the Reference Point for Lateral Relief (Red Penalty Area only) is the point where the path of the ball LAST crossed the Penalty Area limit, per 17.1d(3).  Regarding your second situation, if the ball lands over the water but not out of the Penalty Area, B is still the reference point.  Its important to understand that even if your ball DID land outside the Penalty Area and roll back in, its possible that there's no acceptable Relief Area, no place that's within two clublengths of C, outside the Penalty Area, and not closer to the hole.  It all depends on the location of the Hole and the geometry of the PA line.  Or your Relief Area may be only a few inches deep, with high vegetation in the backswing.  Or you might, in some rare cases, be allowed to drop on the Putting Green. 

Interestingly (or maybe not) with the 2023 Rules, when taking back-on-the-line relief there's no Reference Point or Relief Area until you actually drop your ball.  You MUST drop on the line, and the Relief Area extends 1 clublength from the point where the ball hits the ground.

Thanks for the layman's terms explanation of the rules, Dave.  Assuming the ball did land at point C outside of the penalty area, and assume the area of relief was playable within 2 club lengths (just a slope with no impediments to the swing), the player could take normal relief procedures correct?  (Since the ball did roll back into the water on the first/original shot it's probably an area that slopes toward the water thus executing a drop in the intended relief area might result in the ball rolling into the water again, and assuming the second drop at the same point also rolls back into the water, the player would then place the ball in the relief at point "C", correct?)

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, AmateurStatus said:

....and assuming the second drop at the same point also rolls back into the water, the player would then place the ball in the relief at point "C"

I'll point you to the spots in the Rules that matter, I hope you'll look these up for yourself.  Lateral Penalty Area relief is discussed in Rule 17.1d(3).  That says you must drop the ball in the Relief Area in accordance with 14.3, which describes a few required elements in an acceptable drop.  14.3c(2) talks about a ball that's dropped in the right way that comes to rest outside the Relief Area.  As you say, you drop it a second time within the relief area.  If it once again ends up outside the Relief Area, you Place it at the spot where the ball touched the ground first on the second drop.  Note that this may not be "C", you don't have to place or drop it on the Reference Point.  If it won't stay, after 2 attempts, you find the nearest point where it WILL remain in place.  

I know this is a long answer to a short question.  I recommend that people learn to use the rules themselves.  Here's a link to the USGA version (the R&A version is identical).  

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=17&subrulenum=1

Note that if you see a term in italics, that term has a definition, and clicking on the word will take you directly to the Definition.  If you see another rule referenced, click on that rule and you'll be transported to the other rule.  Or download the free USGA Rules app for your phone.  Its really designed for ease of use.

[AmateurStatus]

Thanks for clarifying, Dave, it helps a lot to have a explanation of specific examples.  The rule book (yes, I have it and have read it) can be sometimes vague to the average reader i.e. me - so much so to the point that there's an entire section on clarifications/interpretations.  These types of situations come up quite often in regular play so I just wanted to make sure I was following the rules correctly - but most importantly being armed with adequate knowledge to make sure my playing partners also follow the rules correctly.

[DaveP043]

8 hours ago, AmateurStatus said:

Thanks for clarifying, Dave, it helps a lot to have a explanation of specific examples.  The rule book (yes, I have it and have read it) can be sometimes vague to the average reader i.e. me - so much so to the point that there's an entire section on clarifications/interpretations.  These types of situations come up quite often in regular play so I just wanted to make sure I was following the rules correctly - but most importantly being armed with adequate knowledge to make sure my playing partners also follow the rules correctly.

I'm happy to help, learning the rules has been fun for me, and helping others makes it worth-while.  This particular example is not unusual in the way that one rule points you to another rule, and down the line.  The Penalty Area relief tells you to take relief based on a different rule that specifically tells you how to take relief.  The rule about dropping then directs you to the rule about placing if the ball doesn't stay in the relief area.  That's why I made the point about the tools within the Rules that help a Player to follow these jumps from one rule to the next.  Its one thing to learn the rule governing one specific situation, its a much more valuable thing to learn how to use the rules as a whole.