Driver gameplay: Help!

[Shlax]

Sorry for the long post but I thought that it would be useful to put this "call for help" in context.

Since the end of last season, I've been focusing on shallowing my swing with the objective of eventually being able to shape the ball both ways. The idea with being able to shape the ball right-left (draw) was to reduce backspin with driver and increase carry distance as well as gaining more flexibility off the tee. My personal goal is to become a single digit handicap golfer and simply having a chance to shoot sub-80 on a regular basis. I shot 80 numerous times in the past but can't seem to be able to break this milestone.

I have always had a reliable 10 yds cut with driver and effortlessly averaged 260-270 yds off the tee with a few drives around 290-300 yds every round. I have always played an even more reliable cut with irons and I consider approach play as my strength.

In terms of swing changes, the towel drill (i.e., towel/headcover under the lead armpit) has been a real game changer for me. This drill focuses on "staying connected" through the swing and really helped me hit the ball from the inside by neutralizing my arms and slight casting move. Since then, I definitely noticed a significant increase in carry distance and visible gains in terms of ball flight optimization with driver (lower spin, flatter descent angle, more roll, etc). I am not in control of my draws just yet but at least I know the feeling and am able to modify my swing according to the type of shot I want to hit. My swing path varies between 1-2° I-O to 1-3° O-I.

On the range, every practice session is very inspiring. I almost feel like I can do whatever I want with driver. The issue arises when I get on the course: It seems like I lose all ability. I sometime drive it over 300 yds dead straight or with a nice 5 yds cut and other times the dreaded high and weak floating slice that barely totals 240 yds comes out. Since the beginning of this season, this high slice has come out way too often and has costed me entire rounds. I've never lost that many balls and incurred that many penalty strokes in my life. When I don't get a penalty, playing rescue golf has been simply frustrating as having to punch out sideways and hold on for dear life to save bogey is not the type of golf that I aspire to nor that I have been used to.

I am well aware of the ball flight laws and that a slice is due to the club face being opened to the club's path and all that. Like I mentioned above, I am practicing quite often and am able to control my path and club face. It just seems that I am at a point where I get the yips once I tee it up on the course and totally lost confidence in my driver play.

I currently am a 10.5 handicap and after 10 rounds this year, only one of them has counted toward my index calculation: The other nine not being good enough. My index is evidently due to increase pretty soon if I don't start scoring, which is no big deal, but it simply highlights how this aspect of my game has changed for the worse recently and its impact on my overall performance.

Well, I simply don't know what to do anymore and I am requesting help and advices on swing thoughts, drills, mental cues from people that maybe experienced a similar "crisis" in the past.

Thank you in advance for your help fellow Spies!

Edited May 29, 2023 by Shlax
Typos

[NM01]

2 hours ago, Shlax said:

. I am not in control of my draws just yet but at least I know the feeling and am able to modify my swing according to the type of shot I want to hit. My swing path varies between 1-2° I-O to 1-3° O-I.

This is a huge difference in path. It’s nots beneficial to the swing to vary that much.

Trying to make swing changes and trying to hit two different ball flights as part of that is crazy.

2 hours ago, Shlax said:

Well, I simply don't know what to do anymore and I am requesting help and advices on swing thoughts, drills, mental cues from people that maybe experienced a similar "crisis" in the past.

 

Drills have to be done to address an issue so getting recommendations of drills is as bad as just searching YouTube for how to fix a slice. You have to know what you are trying to address

As for advice learn to have a swing that is 1-3° in to out and master that, then alter your stance open or closed to influence ball flight but only after you have a stock shot that is consistent 

post a video of your swing face on and down the line and let see what’s going on.

[Shlax]

5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This is a huge difference in path. It’s nots beneficial to the swing to vary that much.

Trying to make swing changes and trying to hit two different ball flights as part of that is crazy.

Just to precise the swing path point:

- My stock shot is a cut with a slight outside-in swing path. I mentioned this range of club path only to say that I don't have a 1° O-I path every single time as I know that it's not the case (rarely is for anybody really) but also to show that I don't swipe across the ball at 8 or 10° outside-in with the face opened to the path AND target (push slice).

- The 1-2° inside-out range is when I decide to play a draw and forcefully get it from the inside. It still feels unnatural at this point, but I'm working on it.

Just wanted to precise this as it was not meant to say that my club path varies randomly by 5° from shot to shot.

Ideally, sure I would completely alter my swing to always swing 1° from the inside with every club in the bag but that a lot of work as I have had this swing my whole life. It's a work in progress!

25 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

post a video of your swing face on and down the line and let see what’s going on.

I will make sure to get these video point of views soon.

[Bucky CC]

4 hours ago, Shlax said:

I have always had a reliable 10 yds cut with driver and effortlessly averaged 260-270 yds off the tee with a few drives around 290-300 yds every round. I have always played an even more reliable cut with irons and I consider approach play as my strength.

Have you ever used a shot tracking app to determine where you are losing strokes in your game?  If you have a reliable 10 yard cut and average 260+ off the tee I would suspect you are losing strokes because of penalties, or it's an entirely different area of your game.  260+ off the tee is plenty to get a single digit handicap.

If you are set on working on your tee game another option would be to master the small cut with your driver, and work on a draw with your fairway or another club.  Stick with one shot shape for each club instead of trying to master all shot shapes.

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Shlax said:

- The 1-2° inside-out range is when I decide to play a draw and forcefully get it from the inside. It still feels unnatural at this point, but I'm working on it.

Just wanted to precise this as it was not meant to say that my club path varies randomly by 5° from shot to shot.

Ideally, sure I would completely alter my swing to always swing 1° from the inside with every club in the bag but that a lot of work as I have had this swing my whole life. It's a work in progress!

First there’s nothing wrong with having an out to In swing and playing a cut. It’s also quite common for golfers to be somewhat out to in with the longer clubs and be in to out with the shorter ones. 
 

Trying to force the draw is not the ideal way to go about changes. Trying to get and maintain a neutral path will go a long way into building consistency. 
 

Swing changes aren’t easy and it takes time to do them especially when trying to make a big change in swing path. 
 

Most pros tend to stick to a single shot shape, sure most can move the ball left to right and right to left but they don’t do it nearly as much as people think. They flight higher and lower more than side to side

[Shlax]

Hi @Bucky CC. I use the Garmin Golf app as I have the Garmin Approach S60 watch but I am aware that their strokes gained analysis tool is somewhat unreliable (I also don't have Garmin CT10 sensors so I don't have any data regarding putting and chipping). From the available data, I do rank above average off the tee and on approach shots.

That being said, I could always get better putting or stick my approach shots closer to the hole, but based on my general game, the area that I identified as causing me trouble since the beginning of the season (and when struggling to break-80 last year) was definitely driving. As you mentioned, yes, penalty strokes cause me a lot of trouble and 99% of them are incurred off the tee. These penalty strokes occur when one of my cut transforms into a wicked slice that simply doesn't stop turning. The pattern is often the same: The shot appears pretty decent from the start but when the ball passes the apex, it takes a hard right on the way down. When I don't get a penalty stroke by am not in the fairway because of those shots, I struggle to save par and most likely end up with bogey.

For example, I have low to mid 160s mph ball speed (i.e., smash factor reliably hovering between 1.40 and 1.45 and do pure it at 1.50 on occasions). I recognized that my cut is simply too spinny to reliably carry the theoretical optimum with that ball speed and my launch angle of 12-13*. With the same club head speed, when I do hit it from the inside, spin is generally a few hundreds rpm lower (closer to the optimum spin rate) and smash factor generally increases slightly. I did noticed signifiant gains in driving distance when hitting a slight draw.

The idea of me letting go of my reliable cut was to:

- Increase driving distance.

- Shift my historical O-I club path to an I-O club path to highly reduce the possibility of those wicked slices occurring in the future (I generally don't have any issue with club face).

I guess that my initial "call for help" post is also somewhat of a venting post as I am well aware of some of the issues with my swing, but despite my O-I path, I never had the troubles that I have experience this year during my last 10 rounds and that's what triggered my inquiry.

 

[NM01]

1 minute ago, Shlax said:

For example, I have low to mid 160s mph ball speed (i.e., smash factor reliably hovering between 1.40 and 1.45 and do pure it at 1.50 on occasions). I recognized that my cut is simply too spinny to reliably carry the theoretical optimum with that ball speed and my launch angle of 12-13*. With the same club head speed, when I do hit it from the inside, spin is generally a few hundreds rpm lower (closer to the optimum spin rate) and smash factor generally increases slightly. I did noticed signifiant gains in driving distance when hitting a slight draw.

This is contact on the face. What is your face angle and face to path? What’s your dynamic loft?

While you mentioned earlier that you aren’t swiping across the the ball this here would indicate that you may on occasion swipe. Or that you are possibly adding loft and catching the ball low on the face

[Shlax]

15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This is contact on the face. What is your face angle and face to path? What’s your dynamic loft?

While you mentioned earlier that you aren’t swiping across the the ball this here would indicate that you may on occasion swipe. Or that you are possibly adding loft and catching the ball low on the face

Yes it definitely happens: A slice doesn't lie. I am mindful of that aspect. I think that we had an exchange about this topic a few weeks back. The issue is that I don't feel it right off the bat. I feels like I swung my stock cut at then BOOMS: It takes a hard right once the ball passes the apex, which is pretty frustrating.

I don't have access to a launch monitor providing AoA and dynamic loft. It is on my to-do list to rent a Trackman for an hour or two to get my stats in order. The stats regarding face-to-path that I'm aware of are for my successful stock cut. Typically, 2 to 1 ratio: 2* O-I and face 1* opened to the path (therefore 1* closed to target). When that wicked slice comes out, I suspect that my face angle doesn't change much, but that it's my club that increases O-I.

As for contact, my typical strike localtion is in the central portion of the face and in the middle or upper third. I do miss more often on the heel than way off the toe, once again promoting a slice spin, but rarely catch it low on the face.

@RickyBobby_PR I'll make sure to follow-up once I have more advanced stats as you have been very committed and helpul with this type of issue and I appreciate it!

Edited May 29, 2023 by Shlax
Club path and face angle

[cnosil]

44 minutes ago, Shlax said:

Yes it definitely happens: A slice doesn't lie. I am mindful of that aspect. I think that we had an exchange about this topic a few weeks back. The issue is that I don't feel it right off the bat. I feels like I swung my stock cut at then BOOMS: It takes a hard right once the ball passes the apex, which is pretty frustrating.

How wide is your dispersion pattern off the tee and how wide do you think it should be? 

[Shlax]

7 minutes ago, cnosil said:

How wide is your dispersion pattern off the tee and how wide do you think it should be? 

My historical fairway accuracy with driver, from Garmin Golf, is 30%. I have 40% right and 29% left (less than 1% short/completely missed drives). These stats are a bit tainted by my recent performance (last 10 rounds) as I have had this watch for 22 rounds only.

Last year (first 12 rounds where I had the watch), my fairway accuracy was 50-ish% and I had about 30% of drives land right (more rarely OB or in the woods, simply a few yards in the first cut or rough, which was manageable). This year, I average 2 ou 3 out of 14 fairway hits per round.

I was definitely happy with 50% considering that leading PGA Tour pros are roughly around 60%-70%.

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, Shlax said:

My historical fairway accuracy with driver, from Garmin Golf, is 30%. I have 40% right and 29% left (less than 1% short/completely missed drives). These stats are a bit tainted by my recent performance (last 10 rounds) as I have had this watch for 22 rounds only.

Last year (first 12 rounds where I had the watch), my fairway accuracy was 50-ish% and I had about 30% of drives land right (more rarely OB or in the woods, simply a few yards in the first cut or rough, which was manageable). This year, I average 2 ou 3 out of 14 fairway hits per round.

I was definitely happy with 50% considering that leading PGA Tour pros are roughly around 60%-70%.

Sorry, wasn't asking for fairways; but yards wide.        But since you mentioned your stats,  it doesn't seem bad;  maybe you are just not aiming correctly.  

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Shlax said:

Yes it definitely happens: A slice doesn't lie. I am mindful of that aspect. I think that we had an exchange about this topic a few weeks back. The issue is that I don't feel it right off the bat. I feels like I swung my stock cut at then BOOMS: It takes a hard right once the ball passes the apex, which is pretty frustrating.

I don't have access to a launch monitor providing AoA and dynamic loft. It is on my to-do list to rent a Trackman for an hour or two to get my stats in order. The stats regarding face-to-path that I'm aware of are for my successful stock cut. Typically, 2 to 1 ratio: 2* O-I and face 1* opened to the path (therefore 1* closed to target). When that wicked slice comes out, I suspect that my face angle doesn't change much, but that it's my club that increases O-I.

As for contact, my typical strike localtion is in the central portion of the face and in the middle or upper third. I do miss more often on the heel than way off the toe, once again promoting a slice spin, but rarely catch it low on the face.

@RickyBobby_PR I'll make sure to follow-up once I have more advanced stats as you have been very committed and helpul with this type of issue and I appreciate it!

More than likely what’s happening is that the compensations you make in your swing are susceptible to timing and when it’s off you don’t get the club face closed and your face is more open and you get the hover spin which is going to cause more side spin and the slice ball flight.

This is typical for a lot of us that have a swing that’s not quite in good sequence. The good shots are good and the bad ones are real bad.

Once we have a swing to look at we can see what drills would be an option to work on

Things im suspecting are improper shift, clubhead behind the hands in the takeaway, since you are out to in then you are coming over the top at the start of your downswing instead of what some of us do and get steep and shallow using the back shoulder and dropping it and that leads to a  more in to out swing.

 

[Shlax]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:02 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

post a video of your swing face on and down the line and let see what’s going on.

Here are 4 videos (2 from face-on and 2 from down-the-line).

Unfortunately, the down-the-line videos are far from ideal (I should have double checked how my friend framed the shot) but that's what I have for now.

These videos were taken in the first 5 or 6 driver swings of the session. I noted the type of shot/ball flight that resulted from these swings.

Fun fact, I went to the range after deciding to finally fully embrace my fade and simply swing "intuitively" or without thinking about what I wanted to change. The result: The majority of the drives that I hit were high tight draws! It is what it is .

     

 

 

 

 

[NM01]

Down the line videos the camera should be at hand height and on the hand line, face on should be at hand height and in the middle.

Your swing starts with no pressure shift into the trail leg and moving your arms, getting the club behind the hands with no wrist ser and not rotation of the chest/core ore hips. It’s a very flat swing and because you don’t set your wrists it’s long.
 

iYou kick the left hip late which creates a false turn. In transition you jus spin the body and kick the right hip which along with how your backswing is causes you to be steep with the shaft and you get stuck which causes you to have no choice but to early extend and to us hands to square the face.

This type of action is a big chase for two way misses in better players. When the time timing is good and your get your hands to close the face you will hit some small fades to some draws but can get a pull in there. When timing isn’t good the ball will go more right 

The difference in your two shots is where you are along contact on the face. Your draws are coming from toe contact and your fades/slices from heel contact. The gear effect is what is causing the difference in movement, your swings are the same for both 

Learn to shift pressure properly 

Also need to learn how to have a good takeaway and to set the wrists and be in a good spot at club parallel 

 

 

And then how to finish the backswing