HackMotion 2.0 - 2024 Forum Review

[NotScratchYet]

6 hours ago, Jawmusique said:

A general question for the Hackmotion testers - how close are you hands/wrists at impact to where they were at address?  I know everyone opens the club face approx. 90 degrees at the top of their swing, but a lot of golf instruction seems to indicate that you essentially end up delofting the club (for good players) at impact - i.e. wipe the table, right palm at the ground, etc. 

I'm wanting to see how close impact actually is to setup.  Thanks, fellas.

@vandyland answered this perfectly.  HackMotion wants to see a decrease in extension at impact than setup position.  I think the reason for this is the variance in setup positions with stronger or weaker grips at setup.  I think the lower "in-range" would be someone with a weaker grip at address and conversely, the person with a stronger grip at setup would constitute a larger change at impact.  I will try to post a screenshot of the difference between my setup and impact shortly.  I have noticed for me to stay within the range, I have resulted in a slightly weaker grip at setup which allows me to keep inside the range better.  

[Jawmusique]

The screenshot would be great!  Thank you guys for your answers. For me, it helps to mime impact position so I can tell what I need to get to.  It feels like finding something good at the top and basically maintaining that is helpful for consistent contact. 

[NotScratchYet]

17 minutes ago, Jawmusique said:

The screenshot would be great!  Thank you guys for your answers. For me, it helps to mime impact position so I can tell what I need to get to.  It feels like finding something good at the top and basically maintaining that is helpful for consistent contact. 

Here is a quick screenshot and comparison of a Type A swing pattern.  (I think I relate to this more).  I am the dotted line while the tour pro is the solid line.  You can see there is not much change when looking at the graph in radial and ext.  This is my feeling that I try to keep.  However, if you look at the following screen captures I do make a change from setup to top, and impact.

This shows my setup is too extended.  Strongish grip at setup although I have weakened it a bit from normal.  While my feeling is that I do not change my Flex/Ext through my entire swing, I do change it.  I am still fighting being too flexed at impact, but the changes I have noticed are tremendous.  My impact location has been center faced with a predictable ball flight and launch window.  If you look at the ulnar and radial, I do change this in my swing too but I am not trying to.  I'm trying to minimize this, so it appears I need to go through another practice session. 

 

These two examples are back-to-back swings which were struck well in the center.  I think I am going to be fighting too much flexion at impact for a while!  I also struggle with too much radial in the backswing.  For me, just reducing these two tendencies has helped me tremendously.  I'll go through a practice session tomorrow and then hit the SIM to see if a touch-up helps with my ball striking.

             

[Jawmusique]

12 minutes ago, NotScratchYet said:

Here is a quick screenshot and comparison of a Type A swing pattern.  (I think I relate to this more).  I am the dotted line while the tour pro is the solid line.  You can see there is not much change when looking at the graph in radial and ext.  This is my feeling that I try to keep.  However, if you look at the following screen captures I do make a change from setup to top, and impact.

This shows my setup is too extended.  Strongish grip at setup although I have weakened it a bit from normal.  While my feeling is that I do not change my Flex/Ext through my entire swing, I do change it.  I am still fighting being too flexed at impact, but the changes I have noticed are tremendous.  My impact location has been center faced with a predictable ball flight and launch window.  If you look at the ulnar and radial, I do change this in my swing too but I am not trying to.  I'm trying to minimize this, so it appears I need to go through another practice session. 

 

These two examples are back-to-back swings which were struck well in the center.  I think I am going to be fighting too much flexion at impact for a while!  I also struggle with too much radial in the backswing.  For me, just reducing these two tendencies has helped me tremendously.  I'll go through a practice session tomorrow and then hit the SIM to see if a touch-up helps with my ball striking.

             

Do you think being too flexed is caused by trying to hang on to angles?  It seems like however flexed you are at the top, you'll end adding a few degrees by impact? 

[NotScratchYet]

Just now, Jawmusique said:

Do you think being too flexed is caused by trying to hang on to angles?  It seems like however flexed you are at the top, you'll end adding a few degrees by impact? 

Great question.  In my non-pro opinion (lol).  I think adding flexion on the downswing just happens.  Some teach the motorcycle drill from the top of the swing to initiate the flexion at impact.  This may be a helpful thought for some, or damaging to others.  I am trying to reduce my flexion so the motorcycle drill doesn't work well for me.

I don't think holding on to angles (in the backswing) is increasing my flexion.  I think it is reducing it somewhat.

My thought in my swing when attempting to reduce flexion and radial, is to take my setup position to the top without increasing radial and flexion.  From the top I attempt to make a smooth transition and gather speed at shoulder height without getting too jerky or quick.  At that point I am not trying to hold any angles, I am just turning through the ball, if that makes any sense. 

But, with all that said, the data shows differently.  My interpretation from what HackMotion has provided is that "feeling" which is leading to better impact conditions for my swing.

[Jawmusique]

Pretty cool way to really help see data.  Would be cool if Hackmotion offered rentals.  I would definitely use one for a bit to try and feel where I'm supposed to during the swing.

[vandyland]

PUTTING EXPERIENCE POST

First, the normal setup steps to select putting and calibrate:

 ---> --->

And then to the actual meat of the putting analysis, this is a replay of my putting stroke and the resulting graph vs Benchmark (with LAB DF 2.1 putter):

 

And here is the rest of the data:

The putting itself is really just showing the player their relative graph and then very tight tolerances on the setup positions. One key thing to point out is that I used my LAB DF 2.1 putter which has a 3 degree forward press built into the handle so that may be throwing off my setup numbers. I will try this with an old ping anser that I have to see if that works better with the sensor. Overall, I think you are looking for small changes during the stroke. I should say I like my putting at the moment so I am not going to make wholesale changes. I think this is a good bit of information to supplement a bad putting stroke but there are no drills or guidance if you are seeing issues here. 

For a real test, I used both an old school Ping Anser AND my trusty DF 2.1 to see if there is a big difference in my stroke between the two:

First here is the data from my Ping Anser, the first pictures are the averages:

What I note here is how stable the putter comes into impact (I think?) and how flat my averages look. If I dive into the chart benchmarked against a tour pro it looks like this (dotted line is tour pro):

Rotation looks pretty good with maybe a bit more rotation after impact, the ulnar deviation going up is interesting but a lot of that is post impact so not sure how important that is. 

DF 2.1 data:

 

Not huge changes here, I was expecting flexion/extension to be different since there is a built in forward press in the DF 2.1 but it barely registers. Also, it is expected that my overall rotation is less with the DF 2.1 but it was THAT much different. Below here is my chart which deviates a little from the Ping chart:

 

BALL POSITION EXPERIMENT: I also wanted to see if the HackMotion could detect/optimize changes in ball position for putting. I have always been on the fence about middle of my stance (picture 2) vs forward in my stance (picture 1). I threw in the absolute back of my stance (picture 3) as an outlier to see if anything crazy showed up. All of these are medium length (15 ft) putts to see some volatility in my stroke. For reference here are the ball positions I am using:

1. Front of the Stance - So the results here are just okay, in my opinion. Mostly returning back to where I started but there were a few with more than 1 degree of rotation into impact which I did not love. See averages and chart below:

 

2. Middle of the stance - Old faithful here, I have arrived at this position through non-scientific experimentation so let's see how the "scientific" experimentation shakes out. Seems like I have the same issue of too much rotation (or not enough) at impact, I am not getting back to square (zero) consistently here either but there are only 4 -2 rotations here vs 5 in the forward stance. Charts look similar as well. 

3. Back of the Stance - Surely this cannot work right? I should get "crazy" results here....right? Well, IT ACTUALLY SOMEHOW LOOKS BETTER ON THE ROTATION FRONT?? I have to say, putting like this felt very uncomfortable and awkward but the ball was still coming out straight. You can see how my wrists were compensating if you look at "Flexion/Extension" here because that kind of jumps out in the numbers and the chart. But there were ZERO -2 rotations in my population. So this leads me to think maybe slightly rear of center is the sweet spot? Stay tuned. 

 

Some additional random thoughts on how you can use this putting analysis: (1) You can experiment with different putters to see which ones may naturally limit your wrist movements (2) You can try different grips with putters -- I am doing that here in a follow up post -- link --> and (3) Obviously for general putting instruction but I am sure I am leaving other things out (length of putter shaft, weight of putter, lie angle...etc). 

Edited Friday at 09:02 PM by vandyland

[Will A]

On 8/26/2024 at 9:24 PM, Jawmusique said:

Pretty cool way to really help see data.  Would be cool if Hackmotion offered rentals.  I would definitely use one for a bit to try and feel where I'm supposed to during the swing.

I let one of the pros at my course play around with it, and we discussed the value in adding it to their training arsenal.  I think it would make tons of sense for a teaching pro to have these available for use, maybe even with a pre-paired tablet.  It seems the app anticipates that, with the ability to set up multiple user profiles.

[Will A]

On 8/26/2024 at 10:32 AM, vandyland said:

The Ugly: I put 3 balls Out of Bounds off the tee -- two were very bad snap hooks

This is interesting, as my bad misses after using HM were also bad hooks (with irons) off the tee.  A hook is my "normal bad" shape, but I wonder if these are related.  It was particularly interesting to me in that I don't typically hook my irons.

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, Will A said:

This is interesting, as my bad misses after using HM were also bad hooks (with irons) off the tee.  A hook is my "normal bad" shape, but I wonder if these are related.  It was particularly interesting to me in that I don't typically hook my irons.

I would also say mine were quick hooks, not overdraws so they kind of started left and then kept going left. I have guesses as to why but the one thing the HackMotion has proved to me is that my feel is not real. I am taking a break from the HM today as I have used it everyday for about 2 weeks straight and it is doing my head in a little bit currently. I think I just need to mentally reset and come back to it. At the moment, I am struggling with how to fix my lack of extension at the top without doing a really upright and strange backswing. I think this is where HackMotion works well under the supervision of a professional but I don't want to make too many snap judgements based off a few frustrating range sessions (from a HM perspective). The challenge is just that I was FLUSHING the ball but HM was still saying I was out of range at the top and at impact. 

[downlowkey]

On 8/27/2024 at 1:02 PM, vandyland said:

**Placeholder for putting experience**

^^This^^ plus chipping, pitching, bunker motion is the segment that absolutely fascinates me re: the potential of the HackMotion 2.0 system to guide the average player. I’ll be following closely.

BTW - you guys are killing it on this review. Really nice work!

[NotScratchYet]

7 hours ago, Will A said:

This is interesting, as my bad misses after using HM were also bad hooks (with irons) off the tee.  A hook is my "normal bad" shape, but I wonder if these are related.  It was particularly interesting to me in that I don't typically hook my irons.

 

@Will A & @vandyland.  Currently, snap hook is my big miss right now as well.  This is very interesting that 3 of us are experiencing this.  

[Will A]

16 hours ago, downlowkey said:

^^This^^ plus chipping, pitching, bunker motion is the segment that absolutely fascinates me re: the potential of the HackMotion 2.0 system to guide the average player.

I have to be honest, I think there's a lot more they could do with the short game.  So far, the system seems almost exclusively focused on full-swing features.  It'll measure short-game and putting, but there not much in the way of feedback, drills, etc.  With the full "pro" version you can benchmark against a library of swing patterns, but to @vandyland prior points, there's a lot of data that you're kind of left to your own to interpret. 

It's not a hardware limitation, so I would hope future app updates will unlock more in this area.  At what price point is the big question.  I'm inclined to think the current pricing tiers aren't optimized, but that's a discussion for my final review.

[TTruax]

I am pretty set and hit all my clubs (irons and fairway woods) except for my driver pretty straight.  However, my driver is all over the place.  A lot of Army Game (left, right, left, right, with alot more rights).  Has anyone used the HackMotion to fix their Driver?  And thoughts?

[NotScratchYet]

10 hours ago, TTruax said:

I am pretty set and hit all my clubs (irons and fairway woods) except for my driver pretty straight.  However, my driver is all over the place.  A lot of Army Game (left, right, left, right, with alot more rights).  Has anyone used the HackMotion to fix their Driver?  And thoughts?

My driving is usually my strong suit.  However, working on my swing overall there has been a slight increase in consistency.  I did have a two-way miss (over draw, cut when I swing hard).  My current miss is a pull hook I am attempting to work out.  This week has been a wash as the whole fam came down with Covid.  Everyone is much better and I will hit the drills again hard this weekend.  I think HackMotion intends to create an overall swing pattern that focuses strictly on wrist movements.  With that said, I think grooving in the adjustments the HackMotion has suggested will help the driver and iron swing overall.

*One interesting note to add, I have noticed by working with my wrist movements my swing path has become more neutral.  Prior, I had a 3-4 degree in to out path.

[Rearviewmirror]

On 8/29/2024 at 10:35 AM, TTruax said:

I am pretty set and hit all my clubs (irons and fairway woods) except for my driver pretty straight.  However, my driver is all over the place.  A lot of Army Game (left, right, left, right, with alot more rights).  Has anyone used the HackMotion to fix their Driver?  And thoughts?

Have you been fit for your driver? 

[NotScratchYet]

Played a quick nine today and snapped hooked 3 tee shots with the driver.  Iron play was pretty decent today.  I am finding my concentration level has to be high to maintain my wrist angles as HackMotion wants me to be.  

We plan on playing 18 on Sunday, and I will go through a practice session tomorrow with HackMotion and see how that helps/hurts in preparation.   

Update on practice and game Sunday evening.  Hope everyone enjoys their Labor Day!  Get some rest, eat well, and hit em straight.

[TTruax]

16 hours ago, Rearviewmirror said:

Have you been fit for your driver? 

Short answer...No.  

I been experimenting with shafts for my driver based on my fairway woods. My 5W has a xstiff flex shaft and my 3W has a reg flex shaft.  I can draw both. However, testing shafts in my driver has not lead to any consistency.  As a result, I think I need to find a pro to fit me for my driver. 

[Rearviewmirror]

4 hours ago, TTruax said:

Short answer...No.  

I been experimenting with shafts for my driver based on my fairway woods. My 5W has a xstiff flex shaft and my 3W has a reg flex shaft.  I can draw both. However, testing shafts in my driver has not lead to any consistency.  As a result, I think I need to find a pro to fit me for my driver. 

Kind of a drive for you, but 2nd Swing in Columbia, MD is great (Kevin Kraft and David Ko are both awesome) and then I've also heard great things about The Golf Doctor.

[Finky999]

A question for the Testers, I am assuming that you have the Pro package, which includes the Full Data Mode graphics. The Core package offers just the basic Consistency Mode image of your wrist position, right?

Would you find value in the product if you did not have access to Full Data Mode?

[Will A]

26 minutes ago, Finky999 said:

A question for the Testers, I am assuming that you have the Pro package, which includes the Full Data Mode graphics. The Core package offers just the basic Consistency Mode image of your wrist position, right?

Would you find value in the product if you did not have access to Full Data Mode?

Yes, we have the Pro package.  There is certainly value across the board, though whether that value is right for you may vary.  Over the next few weeks, this is something I'll be struggling with for my final review.  Unlike a club earning a spot in my rule-limited arsenal, we can use all the practice gadgets we want.  I think giving our judgment of the price points will be a major focus of this test.  

[NotScratchYet]

34 minutes ago, Finky999 said:

A question for the Testers, I am assuming that you have the Pro package, which includes the Full Data Mode graphics. The Core package offers just the basic Consistency Mode image of your wrist position, right?

Would you find value in the product if you did not have access to Full Data Mode?

Correct in the Pro package.  The core package includes Flexion/Extension, feedback (haptic, audible) drills, and one key feature is the customizable ranges.  The next level up (plus) includes some putting features and the pro package contains the priors along with the rotational aspect of wrist and profile comparisons against tour players.  It also contains a feature I have been looking into such as tempo.  As @Will A mentioned.  The value aspect will certainly be a consideration in the final review.  It was one of my test target areas since the price difference between the core/plus/pro is so varied.

[Will A]

Played 9 in league play last night, this time without using the sensor during my warm-up (didn't have time - but hadn't practiced with it since last Friday).  They moved us up half a tee (combination tees) due to the recently punched greens.  Even so, I shot my lowest 9-hole score on my home course by 5 strokes.  With a half-stroke playing condition adjustment added, it way my fourth lowest differential posted (2 & 3 having been achieved in my prior two rounds).

Hard to think practicing with the sensor hasn't been responsible for the two strokes dropped from my handicap since starting this test.  Was it the practice, the sensor, or some combination?  I can't say.

More sweltering practice tonight ahead of a cold front that looks to make tomorrow morning's 18 absolutely glorious.  Best time of year for golf in the heart of the Bluegrass!

[Jawmusique]

On 9/4/2024 at 1:47 PM, NotScratchYet said:

Correct in the Pro package.  The core package includes Flexion/Extension, feedback (haptic, audible) drills, and one key feature is the customizable ranges.  The next level up (plus) includes some putting features and the pro package contains the priors along with the rotational aspect of wrist and profile comparisons against tour players.  It also contains a feature I have been looking into such as tempo.  As @Will A mentioned.  The value aspect will certainly be a consideration in the final review.  It was one of my test target areas since the price difference between the core/plus/pro is so varied.

Definitely seems to be a lot of value in pro vs. core package.  Seems like if you're spending the money to work on hand/wrist positions, it would be worth having all the data.

 

[Will A]

10 minutes ago, Jawmusique said:

Definitely seems to be a lot of value in pro vs. core package.  Seems like if you're spending the money to work on hand/wrist positions, it would be worth having all the data.

 

This is the question I'm struggling with.  The analytics and drills are still exclusively focused on flexion/extension, leaving the user to interpret and apply their own rotational, ulnar/radial deviation, and tempo data - granted, the swing profile library adds context. The "Pro" mode is certainly useful in the hands of a professional.  I'm just not sure it adds anything to the average or slightly below-average player.

[Jawmusique]

3 minutes ago, Will A said:

This is the question I'm struggling with.  The analytics and drills are still exclusively focused on flexion/extension, leaving the user to interpret and apply their own rotational, ulnar/radial deviation, and tempo data - granted, the swing profile library adds context. The "Pro" mode is certainly useful in the hands of a professional.  I'm just not sure it adds anything to the average or slightly below-average player.

That's a good point.  When you get your wrists in the correct position, does it seem to help with all the other items you've mentioned?  It seems to correct a host of things for me, and I'm not even using the device - just making a backswing and then checking to make sure I'm correct at the top.

It really makes a huge difference for me with wedges, and in particular being able to flight them much lower with the proper wrist conditions.

Edited September 6 by Jawmusique

[Will A]

6 minutes ago, Jawmusique said:

When you get your wrists in the correct position, does it seem to help with all the other items you've mentioned?

I'm not sure that it does, nor am I sure that it doesn't.  I only know it's still not "happy" with where I am on those other axes.

7 minutes ago, Jawmusique said:

It really makes a huge difference for me with wedges

Ironically, I feel the system has really messed up my pitching and chipping.  Distance control has always been my weakness with my short game, but I had a decent feel for good contact.  The system seems to want a lot less wrist motion than I had.  Last night I think I did better by reverting to "swinging my swing" and trying to find that good, hingey swish that I'm used to hitting.

My plan this evening is to really work the dynamic impact drills and see if I can get a better feel for what it wants me to do.

[Jawmusique]

21 minutes ago, Will A said:

The system seems to want a lot less wrist motion than I had. 

I know for me, keeping my wrists stable without much movement allows me to really fine tune distance by swing length, as I'm not really thinking about my hands at all.  I've discovered also that I can make the same swing with my wrists neutral and get a high, floaty chip.  But I can definitely understand not feeling comfortable with chips and short shots.

Edited September 6 by Jawmusique

[Rearviewmirror]

15 hours ago, Will A said:

Ironically, I feel the system has really messed up my pitching and chipping.  Distance control has always been my weakness with my short game, but I had a decent feel for good contact.  The system seems to want a lot less wrist motion than I had.  Last night I think I did better by reverting to "swinging my swing" and trying to find that good, hingey swish that I'm used to hitting.

I feel like I've finally come to terms with the fact that golf is a game of eight very different swings:

• Driver
• Full shot irons
• Wedges
• Pitch shots
• Chip shots
• Short game shots (for me that's Dan Grieve's three releases)
• Bunker shots
• Putter stroke

There are some commonalities between some of them, but releasing your wrists for a high lob shot sadly doesn't translate to driver

Edited September 7 by Rearviewmirror

[vandyland]

Minor hiccup here with the wrist strap, be careful as the velcro can come off. The velcro is 3 small strips which transferred to the "wrong side" and thus they would not hold anymore. I removed them and will try to glue them back. The good news is that it looks like the strap can be replaced in worst case. 

Edited September 9 by vandyland