Blade's DTL swing

[Blade]

For better or worse, here's my swing. This was a 3 iron. Before winter and a surgery I had really gotten rid of a lot of hip movement. It seemed like I tightened and simplified my swing. I can't seem to get that feel back. When I look at this, it seems like a lot's going on. I drop in the BS and raise a bit at the top which may not be ideal. But whomever has something they notice is free to comment.

 

When I play a YouTube video I don't have the buttons to advance or backup frame by frame for some reason. Is that a browser thing? I'm using Chrome.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4ifd4YET4xc

[JMiller]

For better or worse, here's my swing. This was a 3 iron. Before winter and a surgery I had really gotten rid of a lot of hip movement. It seemed like I tightened and simplified my swing. I can't seem to get that feel back. When I look at this, it seems like a lot's going on. I drop in the BS and raise a bit at the top which may not be ideal. But whomever has something they notice is free to comment.

 

When I play a YouTube video I don't have the buttons to advance or backup frame by frame for some reason. Is that a browser thing? I'm using Chrome.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ifd4YET4xc

 

No it works in Chrome / FireFox I have done it in both. Pause the video then use the left and right arrow keys on the keyboard to move the video backwards (left arrow on keyboard) and forward (right arrow on keyboard). The more frames per second the video is shot in the easier it is to see what is going on in the swing.

[GolfSpy WD]

For better or worse, here's my swing. This was a 3 iron. Before winter and a surgery I had really gotten rid of a lot of hip movement. It seemed like I tightened and simplified my swing. I can't seem to get that feel back. When I look at this, it seems like a lot's going on. I drop in the BS and raise a bit at the top which may not be ideal. But whomever has something they notice is free to comment.

 

When I play a YouTube video I don't have the buttons to advance or backup frame by frame for some reason. Is that a browser thing? I'm using Chrome.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4ifd4YET4xc

 

I'll let JM comment on the swing itself and enjoy his response, but I can help with the technical stuff!

 

All you have to do is pause it, then hit the right or left arrow keys to move forward or backwards a frame.

[Paul S]

Well, the first two things that (almost literally) jump out are the very aggressive takeaway and the improper spine angle through the backswing. I'm sure if we slow the video down we'll notice some compensations through the downswing as a result. I'm curious about your balance too. Can you hold your finish?

 

Paul

[Blade]

No it works in Chrome / FireFox I have done it in both. Pause the video then use the left and right arrow keys on the keyboard to move the video backwards (left arrow on keyboard) and forward (right arrow on keyboard). The more frames per second the video is shot in the easier it is to see what is going on in the swing.

I just don't get the forward and back buttons when a pause a video. Maybe I have a player out of date or something.

[GolfSpy WD]

I just don't get the forward and back buttons when a pause a video. Maybe I have a player out of date or something.

 

There are no buttons, just use your arrow keys.

[JMiller]

If you have a laptop / desktop and a physical keyboard it will have 4 arrows on the keyboard up, down, left, right. I don't think a tablet / phone would have that functionality.

[Blade]

If you have a laptop / desktop and a physical keyboard it will have 4 arrows on the keyboard up, down, left, right. I don't think a tablet / phone would have that functionality.

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought I remembered the arrows showing up on the viewer at one time. Thanks.

[JMiller]

For better or worse, here's my swing. This was a 3 iron. Before winter and a surgery I had really gotten rid of a lot of hip movement.

Was the surgery something that could effect your golf swing in some way?

 

It seemed like I tightened and simplified my swing. I can't seem to get that feel back. When I look at this, it seems like a lot's going on.

 

I drop in the BS and raise a bit at the top which may not be ideal.

That last line to me sounds like you are onto something but you are just not 100% sure how / why the drop / raise happens?

[Blade]

Well, the first two things that (almost literally) jump out are the very aggressive takeaway and the improper spine angle through the backswing. I'm sure if we slow the video down we'll notice some compensations through the downswing as a result. I'm curious about your balance too. Can you hold your finish?

 

Paul

I rarely have a balance issue. I can normally hold my finish if I want to. I just can't get my swing back to where it was a few months ago. I had gotten rid of excess movements, especially with my hips, pretty well. Maybe it has a lot to do with the shape I'm in. I had been doing stretching exercises quite a bit as well as a little strength training. I'm 10 lbs heavier than a few months ago also. Maybe reduced flexibility is preventing me from moving like I had been. Just thought of that.

[Blade]

Was the surgery something that could effect your golf swing in some way?

 

 

That last line to me sounds like you are onto something but you are just not 100% sure how / why the drop / raise happens?

No, it was just hernia surgery. I think it was the time sitting around plus not getting out because of winter.

 

As far as the drop and raise, I knew I dropped on the BS which isn't necessarily a problem. The raise could be more of a problem. I recorded that on my phone. It let's me go in slow motion or advance frame by frame. 3-4 frames before my hands get to the top, my knees and then hips start moving the other way. I think it's right as that happens I raise a bit. I'm keeping my hips deep better than I used to. But I could still do better probably.

 

What I had done before was turn my shoulders keeping my hips still until later in the BS. Compared to what I'm doing now, it felt like I didn't turn my hips. But my left knee would kick out as I got to the top and if I stopped there, they were turned about 45*. I think I just have too much going on from my hips down again. I turn into my right leg maybe more than I should. I don't know. It would be kind of nice to have some suggestions. I've never taken a lesson. I'm just swinging the club. It bugs knowing I had something better working and can't get back to it though.

[JMiller]

No, it was just hernia surgery. I think it was the time sitting around plus not getting out because of winter.

Okay, I just wanted to confirm before I said anything. I am pretty sure I know what the issues are but didn't know if they were caused from a joint issue.

 

As far as the drop and raise, I knew I dropped on the BS which isn't necessarily a problem. The raise could be more of a problem.

Actually, your raise is the result of the drop. It is a compensation for the drop in the backswing. You as an athlete know that you can't stay at the height you dropped to and hit the ball cleanly you would hit it massively fat. So it is a reaction to correct the drop not the issue it is a self fix for the issue.

 

I recorded that on my phone. It let's me go in slow motion or advance frame by frame. 3-4 frames before my hands get to the top, my knees and then hips start moving the other way. I think it's right as that happens I raise a bit. I'm keeping my hips deep better than I used to. But I could still do better probably.

You only need 45* of hip turn in the backswing and 90* of shoulder turn. I am not sure what you mean by "I'm keeping my hips deep better". Look at any turn players swing they have very little hip rotation (about 45* closed) against a lot of shoulder rotation (90* to 110* is common) stretching in coiling the core muscles for power.

 

What I had done before was turn my shoulders keeping my hips still until later in the BS. Compared to what I'm doing now, it felt like I didn't turn my hips. But my left knee would kick out as I got to the top and if I stopped there, they were turned about 45*.

That would be to correct feeling, like I was rambling about above

 

I think I just have too much going on from my hips down again. I turn into my right leg maybe more than I should. I don't know. It would be kind of nice to have some suggestions. I've never taken a lesson. I'm just swinging the club. It bugs knowing I had something better working and can't get back to it though.

For never taking a lesson you have a decent swing actually. Let me give you a little feed back as you have done most of my job for me above as you got more insight into your swing then most people do.

 

Takeaway

~ It looks good actually, however I ask the question. How much weight do you have inside of the right foot at this point?

>> AT this point you should have about 70% of your weight on the inside of the center to heel of the right foot.

 

To the Top

NOTE: This is where the swing breaks down.

 

~ Your hips start to over rotate, the right knee adds flex to where it was at the end of the takeaway

~ The left side breaks down and knee starts coming in-towards the right knee instead of out

>> These two things are what is causing the drop in your backswing.

 

FIX :: You need to get posted on the right leg properly at the end of the takeaway, this will force the hips not to rotate anymore and the left side will not break down as it can't over rotate.

 

Downswing

~ Like I said before the raise is a reaction to the drop in the backswing. If you fix the over-rotation of the hips by posting up on the right leg better you are likely to be tailor at the start of the down swing eliminating the raise.

 

 

All you need to fix is getting the weight properly on the right leg at the end of the takeaway. Post up on the right leg holding the knee flex and the rest should fall in place nicely.

 

I rarely have a balance issue. I can normally hold my finish if I want to.

There are more then one balance point check points IMHO.

 

~ Address (50% left - 50% right)

~ End of takeaway (30% left - 70% inside right foot)

~ End of backswing (20% left - 80% inside right foot)

~ impact (left foot 80% - right foot 20%)

~ finish 100% left foot (you should be able to lift the right foot off the ground and stay in balance)

[Blade]

Thanks JM! What I mean by keeping my hips deep is not letting them thrust toward the ball. I used to do that and lose my spine angle as I approached the ball. Like I told Paul S, I got to thinking about what changed over the winter and the biggest thing may be my flexibility. That may be what's keeping me from moving like I had been before winter and being laid up for a while. Thanks for your time looking at it. If I get back to what I felt I was doing a few months ago, I'll post it again.

[JMiller]

As always, take it or leave it, just my opinion on why the dip happens and thus the raise happens is you leg work in the backswing.

[Blade]

Oh I think you nailed it. Just putting my finger on it to fix it has been tough. Already started working on it and looks better. Not quite where I want it yet, but I know what to work on. Thanks again. I really appreciate it. I'll post something when I get it down better to compare.

[JMiller]

One drill that might help is to place a golf ball under the center outside of your right foot. Here is an image I took from some random person when I searched the drill.

 

The point of this is to not get your weight outside of the right foot and retain the right knee flex from takeaway to the top of the backswing.

[GolfSpy WD]

One drill that might help is to place a golf ball under the center outside of your right foot. Here is an image I took from some random person when I searched the drill.

 

The point of this is to not get your weight outside of the right foot and retain the right knee flex from takeaway to the top of the backswing.

 

This looks exactly like a drill my son needs. I'm going to have to steal it

[JMiller]

The "ball under the outside of your back foot" has been around for years. As long as I can remember at least, I have found some articles dating to 2007 with the drill in them. It's nothing new but it's a really good simple drill.

 

The idea is to take your set-up position and put a golf ball underneath the outside of your back foot. This will prop your foot up and allow you to build tension on the inside of your back leg as you make your backswing. This drill will prevent you from moving your weight too far laterally on the backswing, which is a common, distance-robbing flaw of many high handicappers. These players let their weight travel to the outside of their back leg. When this happens, there is no coil produced, and not a lot of energy is created to produce clubhead speed on the downswing.

 

In Blades case, I'm not sure of his handicap but the right knee adds flex, the left side breaks down allowing the hips to over rotate and the body to dip. To fix this we need to keep the amount of knee flex in the right knee at the end of the takeaway all the way up to the top as the right hip clears and left arm swings up to the top position.

[GolfSpy WD]

The "ball under the outside of your back foot" has been around for years. As long as I can remember at least, I have found some articles dating to 2007 with the drill in them. It's nothing new but it's a really good simple drill.

 

The idea is to take your set-up position and put a golf ball underneath the outside of your back foot. This will prop your foot up and allow you to build tension on the inside of your back leg as you make your backswing. This drill will prevent you from moving your weight too far laterally on the backswing, which is a common, distance-robbing flaw of many high handicappers. These players let their weight travel to the outside of their back leg. When this happens, there is no coil produced, and not a lot of energy is created to produce clubhead speed on the downswing.

 

In Blades case, I'm not sure of his handicap but the right knee adds flex, the left side breaks down allowing the hips to over rotate and the body to dip. To fix this we need to keep the amount of knee flex in the right knee at the end of the takeaway all the way up to the top as the right hip clears and left arm swings up to the top position.

 

Thanks for the explanation, definitely sounds like an issue for my son. He can hit the ball anywhere from 120-150 with his driver, so I know he's losing power *somewhere* and I also know he over rotates. The pieces just seem to fit, will try it out next time we're at the range and post his results.

 

Sorry to derail the thread Blade!

[Blade]

You didn't derail it. You're always welcome to comment. That's good feedback with the ball. I don't get to the outside of my right foot, but it's still a good one. I might post what I've changed along with a FO view. I wish I could do both at the same time to see the same swing from both directions, but oh well.

[Blade]

Here's another DTL and a FO view. I think my FO was a slower tempo than normal, but it was a good strike. I may need to work on it some more. But it's better than it was.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alNhegBNYnE

I casted the club here, but my club broke on the next swing so I couldn't record another one with the same club anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQW9C52RQjM

 

Still squatting in the back swing but not quite as much. I sure have a hard time making a decent swing without dropping a little.

[JMiller]

Blade, how did they feel to you, they look a ton better the dip / raise move is not in these two videos that I can tell, you are standing a lot tallier at the top and the hips are not over-rotating.

 

I think you pretty much solved your dip / raise issue in he two videos you now have posted.

 

My questions I would ask you know are:

1) Are you satisfied with your swing and if not why?

 

2) If you are not satisfied what are your goals for improvement?

 

 

 

I have a few things in mind if you want me to get really picky about your swing but you asked mostly about the dip / raise and nothing more so it's up to you where you want to go from here. If you stay with the current 2 videos, verbalize your swing and know what YOU do so that if you do identify a change that needs done down the road you know how to make it easier and why it needs changed rather then changing when the going gets tough.

[Blade]

Blade, how did they feel to you, they look a ton better the dip / raise move is not in these two videos that I can tell, you are standing a lot tallier at the top and the hips are not over-rotating.

 

I think you pretty much solved your dip / raise issue in he two videos you now have posted.

 

My questions I would ask you know are:

1) Are you satisfied with your swing and if not why?

 

2) If you are not satisfied what are your goals for improvement?

 

 

 

I have a few things in mind if you want me to get really picky about your swing but you asked mostly about the dip / raise and nothing more so it's up to you where you want to go from here. If you stay with the current 2 videos, verbalize your swing and know what YOU do so that if you do identify a change that needs done down the road you know how to make it easier and why it needs changed rather then changing when the going gets tough.

Thanks.

Ignore the FO view. I threw the club in front of my hands on that one. I should have recorded a better one with my 4 iron or something after the shaft broke instead of posting it. I'm thinking of my turn to keep from doing the drop instead of just feeling the club like I normally do, so it messes with my tempo and what I do with the club. I don't like thinking mechanical thoughts when I swing, but kinda have to to fix something. Once I get the turn to be automatic, I can just swing the club again.

 

If you see something in the DTL view, pick away. It may be related to being more mechanical and less automatic at the moment, but maybe not. Either way I'd like to hear what you have to say. Thanks again for looking at it.

 

I'll record a FO that feels like a good typical swing and see what you think. Won't have time today probably, maybe tomorrow.

 

Satisfied? Hard to say when I'm changing something. It still felt and looked to me like I was doing the same thing, just not as bad. I had this compact, tight turn that was so repeatable and effortlessly powerful. That's my goal to get back. It may be a flexibility issue that's keeping me from it like I said. If I get it back, I'll really let you pick it apart then. I could flush ball after ball at that point without thinking about it. Who knows, you might say something now that puts it back in place for me. Just putting into words what I was doing to drop and raise was a huge help even though I already knew I was doing it!

[JMiller]

Thanks.

Ignore the FO view. I threw the club in front of my hands on that one. I should have recorded a better one with my 4 iron or something after the shaft broke instead of posting it. I'm thinking of my turn to keep from doing the drop instead of just feeling the club like I normally do, so it messes with my tempo and what I do with the club. I don't like thinking mechanical thoughts when I swing, but kinda have to to fix something. Once I get the turn to be automatic, I can just swing the club again.

There is a time and place for mechanical thoughts, which is the practice tee (range). Or in a 9 hole round trying to get the feel from the range to the course. If the score is not important then you can think about mechanical thoughts all you want.

 

I personally find it a lot better for me to go play 9 holes not keep score and really work on stuff on the course. It adds a since of urgency to getting what you are attempting correct as missing has penalties. The range for most people just doesn't put the same kind of pressure on their swing.

 

It's not a real popular notion that it's better to learn on the course but for me I find I learn faster that way. In college, I never spent much time on the range banging balls, I spent all my time playing golf after I got off work from cutting greens and doing other maintenance at the course I worked at. I figured out how to play shots under the gun a little faster then conventional teaching.

 

 

If you see something in the DTL view, pick away. It may be related to being more mechanical and less automatic at the moment, but maybe not. Either way I'd like to hear what you have to say. Thanks again for looking at it.

No, actually it is far more basic then mechanical moves in the swing that I was gonna be picky with. Your posture is not great at address and the stance width is a bit wide for a long iron IMHO.

Address Position Tiger (Left) compared to you (right), both are pictures of long iron address positions.

 

You can see from the Photo's that Tiger's Back is flat and arms are hanging down bellow him, where your back is rounded and the arms are at a 45* reaching out from the body.

 

From face on using Tiger again and a long iron on the tee we can see the change in stance width and head position between him and you. The blue lines represent the outside of the shoulders and hte middle line represents where the left ear is approximately.

 

It is nothing mechanical it is all setup and posture that I wanted to complain about.

 

 

 

 

I'll record a FO that feels like a good typical swing and see what you think. Won't have time today probably, maybe tomorrow.

 

Satisfied? Hard to say when I'm changing something. It still felt and looked to me like I was doing the same thing, just not as bad. I had this compact, tight turn that was so repeatable and effortlessly powerful. That's my goal to get back. It may be a flexibility issue that's keeping me from it like I said. If I get it back, I'll really let you pick it apart then. I could flush ball after ball at that point without thinking about it. Who knows, you might say something now that puts it back in place for me. Just putting into words what I was doing to drop and raise was a huge help even though I already knew I was doing it!

Maybe it's the posture thing as well, the takeaway and top positions are effected by how you address the ball and posture.

 

If your stance is too wide it can cause a sway or drop because the weight can't effectively load on the right leg easily. If the stance is a bit too narrow then the weight is more likely to get outside the foot and over rotate the hips or sway as well. Just have to find the balance between the two.

 

You don't appear to be in a two-plane swing it's closer to a hybrid plane so you only need a little lateral hip movement to start the swing then rotation, right now you have to laterally slide so much to get the weight onto your left foot and head back into a proper position, it is likely to cause inconsistent ball striking.

[Blade]

Ooh, good observations. I had noticed my stance was too wide and I have a tendency to be too upright at address unless I remind myself to get lower. I hadn't thought about the wide stance forcing me to shift so much and add to the dropping issue. Thanks for that. I think that will help. I'll update this when I get a little more comfortable with the changes and see what you think. Thank you!

[JMiller]

How is the progress coming along Blade?

[Blade]

Thanks for asking. I'm getting back to where I had been, but not consistently there like I was before. When I get to where I can repeat what I had going, I'll post it and let you take a look. What you told me so far has been a big help. Funny how you can get something working and think you can reproduce it anytime and then you lose it and can't get back to it. I'll get it tho.

Thanks again.

[JMiller]

Thanks for asking. I'm getting back to where I had been, but not consistently there like I was before. When I get to where I can repeat what I had going, I'll post it and let you take a look. What you told me so far has been a big help. Funny how you can get something working and think you can reproduce it anytime and then you lose it and can't get back to it. I'll get it tho.

Thanks again.

 

A trick I picked up from Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) is to attempt to verbalize the swing in a sequence of motion.

>> http://bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/01/guide-to-understanding-your-golf-swing.html

 

The idea is to be able to describe your backswing in 3 short sentences, for example I might describe my backswing as:

1) shoulders and arms away from the ball

2) right hip clears as wrists hinge

3) Shoulders rotate as the left arm swings and right arm folds.

 

If you can figure out the different feels for a good sequence of motion that results in a good shot, compared to the bad ones then it is easy to adjust to the feel you know for a fact will produce the proper shot.

 

Golf is repetitive, have a pre-shot routine to help with the process in doing the same thing in the exact same way every time.