Green Reading

[Syks7]

I ran across some content on instagram that's been pretty solid help for me putting wise and I'm trying to find some more info about it.   https://www.instagram.com/reel/C276uwOvlVt/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

It's a basic algorithm that's -- Length of Putt * (1/2 of the Average Slope) = Inches to aim up the fall line.    (For 10 stimp, more break for faster, less break for slower) In practice for a 40' right to left putt with an average 4% slope it means (40*(2*2)= 40*2 = 80" .   So you Aim 80" (a little less than a flag stick) right of the cup.

The way I've been using it is to pace off the putt when I get to the green, guestimate the slope by eyeball, run the algorithm and make adjustments based upon some other green reading info I know and whether or not the read looks too low or two high, pick my start line and go.  I should add that I do this pretty quickly, and do a lot of rounding with the math.  I also have a good eye for slope since I'm an architect and know 2% slope by heart.  (good drainage is important if you don't want lawsuits)  I've found that the algorithm gives me a great general start line and the small adjustments I make narrow it down.   Provided I putt with decent speed it always seems to be a good enough read to leave me close.

I've had very good success with it over three rounds, particularly with lag putting.  I've been down around 30 putts 2-3 less than my average (my proximity to the hole on approach is not super awesome).  It seems to have nearly eliminated my three putts (only one over the last 54 holes) and I've been making a lot more inside 10 feet and almost all inside 5.   Maybe it's a placebo for my mind, because I sure feel much more confident standing over a 5 footer to save par with both a read I'm confident in and a putter I know will put it on the right line. 

I'm trying to find more info about this algorithm and coming up empty?  Any suggestions?  I know it's not aimpoint since there's no straddling the line or using fingers, but I can't seem to find any info about it.  Is it tour read?  https://tourreadgolf.com/   I don't have an Iphone to try it out?  Or is it something else?

[cnosil]

4 hours ago, Syks7 said:

I ran across some content on instagram that's been pretty solid help for me putting wise and I'm trying to find some more info about it.   https://www.instagram.com/reel/C276uwOvlVt/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

It's a basic algorithm that's -- Length of Putt * (1/2 of the Average Slope) = Inches to aim up the fall line.    (For 10 stimp, more break for faster, less break for slower) In practice for a 40' right to left putt with an average 4% slope it means (40*(2*2)= 40*2 = 80" .   So you Aim 80" (a little less than a flag stick) right of the cup.

The way I've been using it is to pace off the putt when I get to the green, guestimate the slope by eyeball, run the algorithm and make adjustments based upon some other green reading info I know and whether or not the read looks too low or two high, pick my start line and go.  I should add that I do this pretty quickly, and do a lot of rounding with the math.  I also have a good eye for slope since I'm an architect and know 2% slope by heart.  (good drainage is important if you don't want lawsuits)  I've found that the algorithm gives me a great general start line and the small adjustments I make narrow it down.   Provided I putt with decent speed it always seems to be a good enough read to leave me close.

I've had very good success with it over three rounds, particularly with lag putting.  I've been down around 30 putts 2-3 less than my average (my proximity to the hole on approach is not super awesome).  It seems to have nearly eliminated my three putts (only one over the last 54 holes) and I've been making a lot more inside 10 feet and almost all inside 5.   Maybe it's a placebo for my mind, because I sure feel much more confident standing over a 5 footer to save par with both a read I'm confident in and a putter I know will put it on the right line. 

I'm trying to find more info about this algorithm and coming up empty?  Any suggestions?  I know it's not aimpoint since there's no straddling the line or using fingers, but I can't seem to find any info about it.  Is it tour read?  https://tourreadgolf.com/   I don't have an Iphone to try it out?  Or is it something else?

Look up Geoff Mangum; this is his formula.  Also note that aiming up the fall line is not the same as left or right of the hole.     You can find more detail on the formula in his 10 and in putting document.   Link:  http://www.dropbox.com/s/iw4nimn4wffboko/Ten-and-In.pdf?dl=0

 

 

Edited February 19 by cnosil

[cnosil]

Here is another document from Geoff Mangum on slope and break: https://oldduffergolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Slope.pdf

 

[Syks7]

6 hours ago, cnosil said:

Also note that aiming up the fall line is not the same as left or right of the hole.      

Thank you!  I somewhat inferred the that but sort of simplified via left or right to make it faster on the green.  It's a lot easier to guestimate 30" right vs. 30" at a 45 degree angle away or short of the hole.   I'd imagine up or down the fall line has a lot to do with making sure you have the proper speed along with the proper break.  Looks like I have some interesting reading to do.

Edited February 20 by Syks7

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, Syks7 said:

Thank you!  I somewhat inferred the that but sort of simplified via left or right to make it faster on the green.  It's a lot easier to guestimate 30" right vs. 30" at a 45 degree angle away or short of the hole.   I'd imagine up or down the fall line has a lot to do with making sure you have the proper speed along with the proper break.

You'd have to read Geoff's thoughts on speed/touch; that is another complete discussion. But yes, single speed and single line.   The fall line provides a single place to aim no matter where you are around the hole unlike aimpoint where the spot would change as you move around the hole.   Aimpoint is fundamentally simpler since you are looking left or right of hole  and don't have to "imagine" the fall line which could be pointing in any direction from where you are standing.   He also discusses other methods for doing reads that  don't require  working with the fallline.  

[RoverRick]

10 hours ago, Syks7 said:

 Maybe it's a placebo for my mind, because I sure feel much more confident standing over a 5 footer to save par with both a read I'm confident in and a putter I know will put it on the right line.

Never discount this statement. I use AimPoint to a certain extent. It may have a placebo effect because it is only 1/3 of the putt making formula and perhaps the least important. Line, speed, and stoke. 
 

Line For me, I rarely miss a putt by 5-6 feet left or right. In your example you used 4% slope. That’s a huge slope for making a 40’ putt. But even if you under-read it by almost 1/2 (your calculations says 80” and AimPoint says 4 fingers.) your ball will be about 3 feet from the hole, but likely straight up the hill. A very makable 2 putt. 
 

Speed Using your same example, you hit your putt starting out perfectly on line, but leave it 10’ short or 10’ long. Now you have a 10’er that likely has a pretty severe slope also. Not near as makable.
 

Stroke Now let’s say you have the 3’er straight up hill. You can still miss it because you pulled the putt or pushed it. 
 

The moral of the story, whatever method you use, once you have decided on a line and set up on it, focus on making a good stroke at the right speed.

Even if your method is just a placebo, which I’m not saying it is, let it give you confidence to setup and focus intently on the speed. 

[cksurfdude]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:44 PM, RoverRick said:

setup and focus intently on the speed

Yep! Average recreational bogey golfer here - using AimPoint Express to determine a direction and then focus on speed to .. try to!! .. get it close.

IMHO, and just my opinion and not to distract the thread from the initial green reading algorithm, but some people I see stress way too much over .. and take way too long trying to decide on .. their starting line...

Find, and practice, a green reading that makes sense to you so you're confident with it on the course.

Interesting enough I saw a college age golfer the other day plumb bobbing!

[cnosil]

19 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

IMHO, and just my opinion and not to distract the thread from the initial green reading algorithm, but some people I see stress way too much over .. and take way too long trying to decide on .. their starting line...

Golfers stress over and take way too much time over many things in golf.      

People need to trust their natural instincts more.

[cksurfdude]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:01 PM, cnosil said:

Look up Geoff Mangum; this is his formula. Also note that aiming up the fall line is not the same as left or right of the hole. You can find more detail on the formula in his 10 and in putting document.   Link:  http://www.dropbox.com/s/iw4nimn4wffboko/Ten-and-In.pdf?dl=0

 

On 2/19/2024 at 3:36 PM, cnosil said:

Here is another document from Geoff Mangum on slope and break: https://oldduffergolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Slope.pdf

Thx for those links!

Warning to others - he can get a little deep into some details (and throws some math at you), but otoh he clearly lays out his thinking and gives good explanations. Worth at least skimming through.

Also some good insights on looking more critically at green layouts.

 

Edited February 24 by cksurfdude
typo

[cnosil]

49 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

 

Thx for those links!

Warning to others - he can get a little deep into some details (and throws some math at you), but otoh he clearly lays out his thinking and gives good explanations. Worth at least sk6iing through.

Also some good insights on looking more critically at green layouts.

He definitely gets into the physics and science behind putting and deep dives into the math so it is more than "a little deep" .   He has very strong opinions on putting and criticizes many of the mainstream instructors and conventions.   I don't know why but I seem to read more info from the "controversial" golf instructors and  would definitely like to spend a couple of hours learning about putting even though half of what he says would go over my head.     

Edited February 23 by cnosil

[RoverRick]

Wednesday, I played with a guy who paced off every, muttered some formula, did some out-loud calculations, I would not be surprised if he had an abacus in his bag to aid in this. He insisted on pulling the flag before he putted, and after 16 holes I thought, “Why pull the flag? I could lay it down behind the hole across the line and you still wouldn’t hit it. He never hit a putt within 10’ of the hole.” He shot a 105 with 50+ putts. It made me question my “miss the putt left or right by 5’ “ statement. 

I was thinking if he did the “Three Bears’ Method” he would be a much better putter. Just look at the hole while making a series of practice strokes, one intentionally too short, one intentionally too long, and then a couple that feel just right. And hit it at the hole. He certainly couldn’t have been worse. I firmly believe we would all be better off just relaxing and hitting where it “feels” like we should, rather than spending a lot of effort on reading long putts. 

Short putts are different. 

[cnosil]

14 hours ago, RoverRick said:

I was thinking if he did the “Three Bears’ Method” he would be a much better putter. Just look at the hole while making a series of practice strokes, one intentionally too short, one intentionally too long, and then a couple that feel just right. And hit it at the hole. He certainly couldn’t have been worse. I firmly believe we would all be better off just relaxing and hitting where it “feels” like we should, rather than spending a lot of effort on reading long putts. 

 

Instinctual putting works,  but you still have to read the breaks/slope on long putts to know where to start the ball.   I play courses with greens that will result in more than 5 foot misses if you don't know where to start the ball.  

[cksurfdude]

22 hours ago, RoverRick said:

I firmly believe we would all be better off just relaxing and hitting where it “feels” like we should,

 

8 hours ago, cnosil said:

Instinctual putting works, 

 

Nothing to do with the OP's green reading algorithm, but I'm a big fan - during practice - of Heads Up putting...

.. for me it really helps develop feels for #1. distance control and 2. starting the ball in the (at least general) intended direction...