Sorting through Swing Thoughts / Accountability thread

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

I guess I am confused by the whole "don't get your lead arm pinned to your chest, but also don't lift your arms

Thee is always going to be arm lift in the swing. Monte has a video on Instagram about it, but it comes from rotation of the lead arm. The arm pinned on the chest happed from getting the arms too deep and not turning chest in the backswing or when people fire the hips too fast and early in the downswing or by spinning out the chest from the top. This is what cast A works on

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

He is flattening her out. He is an expert and I am a moron but I initially was struck by thinking "man, her swing looked great the way it was."

It’s why you can’t base things just on looks. You have to see what happens in the whole swing. As he was saying she couldn’t shallow the swing with the high hands. So he’s not flattening her swing, he getting her on a better plane so she doesn’t have to compensate for the club being out of position early in the swing and then to get back on plane thru early extension or dropping the trail shoulder to shallow.

As he was saying when her hands are traveling up the shaft plane she can keep the hands in front of the body and rotate.

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

don't let your trail arm collapse but keep your lead arm on the shoulder plane." It seems like it is easy to get way too flat that way over time?

Notice how her wrist set and where her arms were in relation to her body. When you have proper wrist set it’s hard to get flat. 
 

A flat swing would be the but end of the club pointing out past the ball line at the top. Her swing has the butt pointing at or inside the ball line. 
 

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

I guess this is why in-person lessons work better than me trying to self diagnose and work all this out.

Agree and that’s for the majority of golfers. Online to virtual lessons are good too for some but for others may not work as good. Having someone checking on what the golfer is doing to make sure they are doing it right is key. 

[vandyland]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

He wants arm to match shoulder line;  I thought that is what you were trying to do?

In truth this is an easier and more natural position to get into, I just worry that if I start there I will start sliding back into my flat turn over time. Perhaps it is just something I will always fight. I just don’t know how to unsee that mega flat position I had and I am fleeing in the opposite direction. It isn’t a beauty contest but my swing has to come up a little. 

This is the position he is trying to get her into at the top. That is a position I think I can get to (at least superficially).

[RickyBobby_PR]

50 minutes ago, vandyland said:

In truth this is an easier and more natural position to get into, I just worry that if I start there I will start sliding back into my flat turn over time. Perhaps it is just something I will always fight. I just don’t know how to unsee that mega flat position I had and I am fleeing in the opposite direction. It isn’t a beauty contest but my swing has to come up a little. 

This is the position he is trying to get her into at the top. That is a position I think I can get to (at least superficially).

One doesn't have to be in this position. Some may not have the flexibility to be ti to this position and getting the club to a 10 o’clock position is just fine 

[Josh Parker]

7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

One doesn't have to be in this position. Some may not have the flexibility to be ti to this position and getting the club to a 10 o’clock position is just fine 

I appreciate all the knowledge shared in this thread and this comment fits my current swing change.  I am working on the flexibility to allow a better rotation but I have also learned that I don't have it right now and have just focused on shortening my backswing and not swaying and it has helped a ton.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

I appreciate all the knowledge shared in this thread and this comment fits my current swing change.  I am working on the flexibility to allow a better rotation but I have also learned that I don't have it right now and have just focused on shortening my backswing and not swaying and it has helped a ton.  

You’re welcome. Here to help when and where I can.

Not swaying will help with the ability to turn especially if the pressure shifts are done correctly

[vandyland]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:40 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Your arms are still separating from your body in the takeaway and be lifted into place which is probably why you had to adjust the aid to 1 rather than leave it at 12.

You are, as usual, correct. Also, I had the swingyde waaay too far away from my hands so I was over hinging to get it "set". I watched a dan whittaker video on the setup and he has the gyde much closer to his hands. From there it is much easier to set it at 12 o'clock and not cup the wrist. 

[vandyland]

12/27/2023 - Hit range balls for about 75 minutes today, taking a break every 10 minutes. One of the worst range sessions I have ever had. Should probably stop posting swings for a while and all that. Too many things going wrong, I need Monte or some golf coach that I trust to just talk me off the ledge here. I swear, golf is insane. I spend most of my free time either holding a golf club or trying to hit balls into the net or something to get better. I have no idea how to set the club (with the swingyde my wrist looks cupped as hell with it at 12 o'clock), I have no idea where the plane is, I have no idea how to get the top of my backswing (is it a turn of my hands? Shoulders? Chest?), I still have no hip tilt, I can't hit the ball. If there was an award for total hours wasted on a bad swing I might in pretty elite company at the moment. 
 

12/27 (PM) - resisted the urge to hit 1,000 balls into my net and instead watched the first episode of “Reacher.” Currently better at watching TV than swinging a golf club.

Edited December 28, 2023 by vandyland

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I have no idea how to get the top of my backswing (is it a turn of my hands? Shoulders? Chest?),

All but the hands. Shoulder/chest, rib cage and arms.

It’s a turn around the spine. But once the arms get disconnected from the body it’s hard to make the proper turn 

[vandyland]

Trying to go into this lesson with Monte with a plan. Not trying to tell him how to teach but I have burning questions that I must ask. Said questions heading into my lesson with Monte that I hope to have answered are:

1. Normal, "natural" swing looks/feels too flat in shoulders and hips and hands and everything feels like I am standing up in the golf swing. Outside of Matt Kuchar I have not seen a tour player in that position with a short/mid iron. Have I identified a problem in my normal backswing that I should be correcting?
2. Also, my hand "set" seemed late or non-existent previously. Is an early hand set preferable and is the swingyde a good way to hone that? (discuss the setup of the swingyde if he is familiar)
3. Assuming that hand set is correct, from there how do get to the top? If the hand set is too early, I think I still have the same question. I will show him this "chest turn" feel I have been experimenting with and see if that is what he wants to see or if he has a different feel/look that he is going for. The "push the hands to 8 o'clock" does not work for me as it gets my hands behind and disconnected from my body (essentially outside my trail shoulder by a large margin). 
4. Finally, what does he think the top of the backswing should look like for me? Is it lead arm on the shoulder plane (I guess that depends on the shoulder plane) or lead arm above the shoulder plane or what? Basically, how can I check that I am getting my club and body in a good position at the top to deliver into the ball.

Those 4 things are a lot to take on in a short lesson. If (probably unlikely) that all gets squared away and there is any time left, I am curious how my transition and downswing will change as a result of any changes we make above. If the chest turn move (which promotes more side bend) is the move then my delivery is going to change as a result of not having such a flat shoulder plane at the top. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

54 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Trying to go into this lesson with Monte with a plan. Not trying to tell him how to teach but I have burning questions that I must ask. Said questions heading into my lesson with Monte that I hope to have answered are:

1. Normal, "natural" swing looks/feels too flat in shoulders and hips and hands and everything feels like I am standing up in the golf swing. Outside of Matt Kuchar I have not seen a tour player in that position with a short/mid iron. Have I identified a problem in my normal backswing that I should be correcting?
2. Also, my hand "set" seemed late or non-existent previously. Is an early hand set preferable and is the swingyde a good way to hone that? (discuss the setup of the swingyde if he is familiar)
3. Assuming that hand set is correct, from there how do get to the top? If the hand set is too early, I think I still have the same question. I will show him this "chest turn" feel I have been experimenting with and see if that is what he wants to see or if he has a different feel/look that he is going for. The "push the hands to 8 o'clock" does not work for me as it gets my hands behind and disconnected from my body (essentially outside my trail shoulder by a large margin). 
4. Finally, what does he think the top of the backswing should look like for me? Is it lead arm on the shoulder plane (I guess that depends on the shoulder plane) or lead arm above the shoulder plane or what? Basically, how can I check that I am getting my club and body in a good position at the top to deliver into the ball.

Those 4 things are a lot to take on in a short lesson. If (probably unlikely) that all gets squared away and there is any time left, I am curious how my transition and downswing will change as a result of any changes we make above. If the chest turn move (which promotes more side bend) is the move then my delivery is going to change as a result of not having such a flat shoulder plane at the top. 

 

Probably not how I would approach the lesson. While you aren’t trying to tell him out to teach you are saying here’s what I’m doing,etc.

Your better option is to let him watch you swing give you feedback and ask questions based on what he is having you do.

 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Trying to go into this lesson with Monte with a plan. Not trying to tell him how to teach but I have burning questions that I must ask. Said questions heading into my lesson with Monte that I hope to have answered are:

1. Normal, "natural" swing looks/feels too flat in shoulders and hips and hands and everything feels like I am standing up in the golf swing. Outside of Matt Kuchar I have not seen a tour player in that position with a short/mid iron. Have I identified a problem in my normal backswing that I should be correcting?
2. Also, my hand "set" seemed late or non-existent previously. Is an early hand set preferable and is the swingyde a good way to hone that? (discuss the setup of the swingyde if he is familiar)
3. Assuming that hand set is correct, from there how do get to the top? If the hand set is too early, I think I still have the same question. I will show him this "chest turn" feel I have been experimenting with and see if that is what he wants to see or if he has a different feel/look that he is going for. The "push the hands to 8 o'clock" does not work for me as it gets my hands behind and disconnected from my body (essentially outside my trail shoulder by a large margin). 
4. Finally, what does he think the top of the backswing should look like for me? Is it lead arm on the shoulder plane (I guess that depends on the shoulder plane) or lead arm above the shoulder plane or what? Basically, how can I check that I am getting my club and body in a good position at the top to deliver into the ball.

Those 4 things are a lot to take on in a short lesson. If (probably unlikely) that all gets squared away and there is any time left, I am curious how my transition and downswing will change as a result of any changes we make above. If the chest turn move (which promotes more side bend) is the move then my delivery is going to change as a result of not having such a flat shoulder plane at the top. 

 

I'd probably not do it as questions.  I would say something like this:   

I have been working on my swing via videoing myself and have been trying to get my swing more upright and setting the hands earlier.  I've tried the NTC drills and feel like it doesn't work for me.    As a result of my self work I have gotten lost with all the things I am trying and am reaching out to you to help me with my swing and also assessing video of my swing to help me ensure I am doing things correctly throughout the swing.

[RickyBobby_PR]

35 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I'd probably not do it as questions.  I would say something like this:   

I have been working on my swing via videoing myself and have been trying to get my swing more upright and setting the hands earlier.  I've tried the NTC drills and feel like it doesn't work for me.    As a result of my self work I have gotten lost with all the things I am trying and am reaching out to you to help me with my swing and also assessing video of my swing to help me ensure I am doing things correctly throughout the swing.

This is perfect because more than likely Monte is going to ask what he’s looking to accomplish, where his game is at, what he wants get out of the lesson/package.

 

[vandyland]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Probably not how I would approach the lesson. While you aren’t trying to tell him out to teach you are saying here’s what I’m doing,etc.

Your better option is to let him watch you swing give you feedback and ask questions based on what he is having you do.

So do I swing my old swing or this new fangled thing I am trying to make work? The only reason I come with these questions is because I can't stop thinking about them. 

I went to his two day clinic last year and the 3 things he gave me to think about/work on were:

- Don't let the right arm collapse
- Maintain setup eyeline (I was starting to watch my backswing)
- Generally assume the left shift is happening before the end of the backswing

 

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This is perfect because more than likely Monte is going to ask what he’s looking to accomplish, where his game is at, what he wants get out of the lesson/package.

What he's looking to accomplish: Build a fundamentally sound swing, have drills to keep it in check, understand what to look for in down the line and face on videos to see if I "losing it"
Where his game is at: I am currently a 2.3 HDCP and I am the best I have ever been but my swing feels/looks terrible and I think I am only there because I literally hit balls and practice almost every day of the year. 
What he wants to get out of the lesson package: See first line. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

What he's looking to accomplish: Build a fundamentally sound swing, have drills to keep it in check, understand what to look for in down the line and face on videos to see if I "losing it"
Where his game is at: I am currently a 2.3 HDCP and I am the best I have ever been but my swing feels/looks terrible and I think I am only there because I literally hit balls and practice almost every day of the year. 
What he wants to get out of the lesson package: See first line. 

Sounds like what you need to tell him.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

So do I swing my old swing or this new fangled thing I am trying to make work? The only reason I come with these questions is because I can't stop thinking about them. 

I went to his two day clinic last year and the 3 things he gave me to think about/work on were:

- Don't let the right arm collapse
- Maintain setup eyeline (I was starting to watch my backswing)
- Generally assume the left shift is happening before the end of the backswing

 

Just swing your swing. I know it sound simple and with the various things you have been trying to work on it might not make some sense, but someone like Monte and good instructors like him they will be able to pick up on the issues pretty quickly. Some of what you are trying to work on also show up in your default swing. 
 

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

What he's looking to accomplish: Build a fundamentally sound swing, have drills to keep it in check, understand what to look for in down the line and face on videos to see if I "losing it"
Where his game is at: I am currently a 2.3 HDCP and I am the best I have ever been but my swing feels/looks terrible and I think I am only there because I literally hit balls and practice almost every day of the year. 
What he wants to get out of the lesson package: See first line. 

Agree with cnosil and would give him this feedback. 

[vandyland]

16 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Just swing your swing.

And I may just have an ugly swing. Monte may finally be able to get me to accept that. Ultimately what this thread proves, to me at least, is that I don't have the knowledge to do this alone. Assuming the lesson goes as it usually does I will probably sign up for Monte's improvement plan for the first part of 2024 (3-4 months) and then report on how that goes for me. New Year's resolution is to realize that I can't manage this by myself and I need professional help. Can't keep hopping to different instructors because I want them to tell me something specific (I am not the expert here, duh). 

Also, I am probably going to read verbatim to Monte what @cnosil told me to say above. Otherwise I am liable to sabotage this lesson as I ramble on for my allotted time about all my swing theories that I have borrowed from hither and yon. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by vandyland

[Jim Shaw]

23 minutes ago, vandyland said:

And I may just have an ugly swing. Monte may finally be able to get me to accept that. Ultimately what this thread proves, to me at least, is that I don't have the knowledge to do this alone. Assuming the lesson goes as it usually does I will probably sign up for Monte's improvement plan for the first part of 2024 (3-4 months) and then report on how that goes for me. New Year's resolution is to realize that I can't manage this by myself and I need professional help. Can't keep hopping to different instructors because I want them to tell me something specific (I am not the expert here, duh). 

Also, I am probably going to read verbatim to Monte what @cnosil told me to say above. Otherwise I am liable to sabotage this lesson as I ramble on for my allotted time about all my swing theories that I have borrowed from hither and yon. 

when is your session with "monte"

[RickyBobby_PR]

35 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Assuming the lesson goes as it usually does I will probably sign up for Monte's improvement plan for the first part of 2024 (3-4 months) and then report on how that goes for me.

This is a good thing. It’s a great way to go about using Monte and his lesson package. Take a lesson, spend 4 weeks working on that lesson, check in weekly or every other week. See where you are at along with his feedback on where you are at. Then schedule the next lesson. Rinse and repeat

37 minutes ago, vandyland said:

New Year's resolution is to realize that I can't manage this by myself and I need professional help.

Something we talk about with personal training and in other sports. Coaches have coaches, all the greats have coaches

[vandyland]

2 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

when is your session with "monte"

New Year's Eve (Sunday), I wonder where I will be on my emotional rollercoaster at that point. I am almost manic/depressive about my golf swing, reading back over some of these posts that I have had in here is.....interesting. 

[Jim Shaw]

19 minutes ago, vandyland said:

New Year's Eve (Sunday), I wonder where I will be on my emotional rollercoaster at that point. I am almost manic/depressive about my golf swing, reading back over some of these posts that I have had in here is.....interesting. 

ahh, good luck, try and have fun...

 

[cnosil]

30 minutes ago, vandyland said:

New Year's Eve (Sunday), I wonder where I will be on my emotional rollercoaster at that point. I am almost manic/depressive about my golf swing, reading back over some of these posts that I have had in here is.....interesting. 

IMO,, no reason to be depressed about your swing.  You are a low single digit handicap golfer which is something that many of us aspire to be.  I personally think your swing looks fine. 

[Goober]

I’m confused. Is this about playing better golf now with a swing change? Or just looking better on camera ? 

[vandyland]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:31 AM, Goober said:

I’m confused. Is this about playing better golf now with a swing change? Or just looking better on camera ? 

I admit it is starting to sound to aesthetic. But "how it looks" matters somewhat since I am looking at it on camera. I have to know what I am looking for and what that looks like in order to track if I am successfully getting in the right neighborhood at the top of the swing. 

New Year's Accomplishments so far:

_X_ Signed up for Monte's Improvement Plan
_X_ Took a Monte Lesson

Overall notes from Monte were:
- Backswing is fine. Said there was no "low hanging fruit" or notable issues in the setup or backswing, so I guess that is good. On the setup he said my hands might be getting a tad low. He said the flat backswing I had was no good but I don't need to try to get crazy upright either. 
- Main problem is "too connected on the way down" arms, chest, hips all firing at the same time. Arms/hands need to get way ahead coming down. This can be accomplished with some version of "keep your back to the target as long as possible" or "feel like you are hitting a left handed one hand backhand" or "karate chop" or hands in trail pocket. Some feel that gets my arms "disconnected" from the rest of my turn. I used to worry about keeping my hips back but I also need to keep my chest and shoulders closed as long as possible. Hands need to be on or in front of the trail leg at P6. Misses should be toe side, if it is heel side that is a bad indicator and I'm probably not doing it right. 
- He said he didn't love or hate the swingyde. It can help people that have issues setting properly BUT he said to watch out for (1) setting the swingyde late (leads to downcock) or (2) keeping the swingyde against your forearm in the downswing (holding lag).

So I have something to focus my over activity on. 

-----------------------------------------------

1/2/2024 - Setup update, I had gotten away from focusing on my setup so did some practice there with spine angle, hand position, etc. Also hit balls very slowly focusing on keeping my shoulders and hips closed as much as possible as long as possible in the swing. It definitely gets the club coming from the inside. Currently it feels like it will be difficult to keep that feeling at full speed but that is to be expected this early on. Monte has said multiple time that misapplication of speed is what messes many people up so I am trying to build slowly here. The face on check is that hands should be on or in front of my trail leg at P6 (shaft parallel to ground in downswing) from a face on view. Hit 75 balls into the net rehearsing this feeling and it is fairly easy to tell with half swings when I either (a) don't get my hands/arms down fast enough or (b) open my shoulders (contact is terrible). 

1/3/2024 - Worked on lowering my arms without rotating early. Got up to about 75% speed and shot a video down the line and face on for Monte and sent it to him. I said "here is my exaggerated swing" and he noted that it doesn't look or seem exaggerated to him, just a good golf swing. So that is good but also it takes a lot of control to not have the "HIT" impulse. Obviously this is like day 1 or 2 of trying to get this feel back (I worked on it extensively my first go round with NTC but I had a different backswing) so now I am dropping from a different spot (hands are higher and more in front of my chest). I am also finding that the early wrist set is the way to go but I need to do more swings without the swingyde since the swingyde is kind of training wheels for the wrist set. 

1/8/2024 - Missed a few days due to weather and such but did play on Saturday with mixed results. I think my wrist is getting a bit cupped at the top and I am not Casting enough from the top and dragging the handle a little at the start of my downswing. Worked on the swing in several phases that are still new (1) early wrist set with flat lead wrist (2) Cast A move that I am familiar with but still seem to struggle with (3) keeping my hips from spinning out and trying to keep my back to the target as long as possible. Will hopefully get on the range sometime this week to see how things are flying. 

 

Edited January 9 by vandyland

[Goober]

Seems like what you quoted has been promoted as the proper way of doing it.And I would venture since the 1950’s.The old book instructors told us this. But for some reason most couldn’t get it.I like your thought process.Reminds me of me 

add.. what about feeling like the club mass stays up and behind you.As you turn away from it in transition.Im thinking that was what NTC is trying to achieve 

Edited January 4 by Goober

[vandyland]

19 hours ago, Goober said:

add.. what about feeling like the club mass stays up and behind you.As you turn away from it in transition.Im thinking that was what NTC is trying to achieve 

As always thanks for your thoughts! I may be misinterpreting what you are saying here but what I would worry about with that feel would be potentially one issues that I currently suffer from (according to Monte):

-- Opening shoulders too much and too early. If I am turning away from the club and leaving it behind me that makes me think my shoulders would be open or if my shoulders were square at impact the club would be waaay behind me. 

The other item he has told me multiple times is that I have to get my hands even with my trail leg at P6 (club parallel to the ground in the downswing), like Rory is doing in this picture here:

 

So, right now, I feel like I have to lower my arms with my wrist bowing and starting to release the hinge (call it the motorcycle move or the NTC move or whatever) and trying not to open my shoulders or hips much at all while still getting my trail elbow in front of my trail hip in order to get my hands down and in front of my trail leg fast enough. It is challenging as spent almost all of my golf career with my hands "passively" behind my turn and way back from my trail leg. 

Edited January 5 by vandyland

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, vandyland said:

 

So, right now, I feel like I have to lower my arms with my wrist bowing and starting to release the hinge (call it the motorcycle move or the NTC move or whatever) and trying not to open my shoulders or hips much at all while still getting my trail elbow in front of my trail hip in order to get my hands down and in front of my trail leg fast enough. It is challenging as spent almost all of my golf career with my hands "passively" behind my turn and way back from my trail leg. 

Obviously some big changes with the swing; wish you luck in getting it to a point where you are happy.  

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, vandyland said:

So, right now, I feel like I have to lower my arms with my wrist bowing and starting to release the hinge (call it the motorcycle move or the NTC move or whatever) and trying not to open my shoulders or hips much at all while still getting my trail elbow in front of my trail hip in order to get my hands down and in front of my trail leg fast enough. It is challenging as spent almost all of my golf career with my hands "passively" behind my turn and way back from my trail leg. 

And keep us updated on your progress,  I enjoy reading your posts.   

[vandyland]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

And keep us updated on your progress,  I enjoy reading your posts.  

Well, if nothing else, you can always look and think "Man, at least I am not as much of a head case as THAT guy". Haha. Thanks @cnosil!

[Goober]

What I was trying to say is you need more upper body staying closed. And lower body opening.  A feeling of your clubhead weighing 1000 lbs. as your lower body turn away from it.That is what I’m working on. And I understand it isn’t a one size fits all feel

some need more body rotation feel. Others more arms and hand winning the race.Its endless I know