Stuka44

ZJeb67 · February 21

I no longer even try. It honestly looks like I have never picked up a golf club, when I try to swing in one. So I just don't do it anymore. That's why I play all winter long unless snow on the ground prevents me from playing.

February 21

The two main ideas have been expressed very well already. The old adage "if it doesn't get to the hole it has no chance of going in", is true enough "I guess".

1ft 2ft 3ft 4ft 5ft 6ft 7ft 8ft 9ft 10ft12ft 14ft 16ft 18ft 20ft 22ft 24ft 26ft 28ft 30ft 34ft 38ft 42ft 46ft 50ft+

1 Putt% 100 96 79 63 54 47 26 27 26 15 18 8 10 10 6 2 3 3 10 3 2 5 3 2 3

3Putt% 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 0 3 3 5 5 9 8 21 19 20 33 21 22 27 33 38 36 44

For me I am trying to get any putt under 12' to reach the hole. I believe with practice I can actually make more of these. Between 12 & 18 feet, although a relatively small percentage, 3 putting is still 4-8 times more likely than under 12 feet. Over 20 feet the chances of 3 putting far outweigh making a one putt. So over 20 not 3 putting is a priority.

Make no mistake, I am trying to make every putt I strike. However statistics and reality tell me, (even pro's numbers bare this out) that trying to make a 24 footer, and expecting to make a 24 footer, are two completely different things. So at a certain distance coming up a little short of the hole, and NOT GIVING A PUTT A CHANCE TO GO IN BECAUSE IT DIDN'T REACH THE HOLE, doesn't really bother me. I find that not giving it a chance to go in is less important, than avoiding 3 putts.

Member Reviews · February 20

17 hours ago, Dan P said:

As a Michigander trying to extend my golf season, I can appreciate these

How are they best used? Can they sit in your pockets or do you have to actively hold onto the warmers?

I used them again in SC this past weekend. Had one day started at 38, and only got to 45. I use them one at a time. They are not to heavy so I find no problem with them in pants, or pullover pocket. At the noted temperature I used it only very little on golf gloved hand, probably 70% to 30 bare hand to golf glove. In between shots or waiting I just hold onto them, inside the pocket, and they put out some good heat. Both are still going after 9 holes, but I find I only need to use one at a time for 9 holes. I had no problem keeping my bare hand warm, to not consider needing to put on a winter glove or anything. Only thing is, 2nd time I used them, I would forget I have them, and forget to put my hand in my pocket quite a bit.

RickyBobby_PR · February 12

19 hours ago, HeathS16 said:

I don’t disagree that it happens very infrequently,

HeathS16 I urge you to go back and read my responses in this thread, word for word. I agree with you 100% If there isn't a rule that says it should be changed, then there can be no considering changing it. The fact that it is CREATED, by another player, and DOESN'T Affect all players in a round equally, as the last guy in tournament has to dodge potentially 980 more divots than the first, is immaterial. The fact that pro's stretch the rules as they are, and unless they are all ignorant of the rules, often ask for relief that is denied by officials, when they likely know they were not entitled, is excusable.

What can't be risked, after all, because it is almost an ABSOLUTE GIVEN, utilizing the best possible definition of what a divot is and isn't, is that You and I, and you would believe almost every other recreational golfer, who doesn't believe the rules are perfect as they now are, will seek to get relief from every possible lie that is not absolutely perfect(THIS HAS ALSO BEEN ASSERTED AS A GIVEN). Believing that the rules for divots should be changed, as a matter of inference means, that you and I seek to ignore every rule when we play, and believe that the OFFICIAL, rules of the game should reflect our wanting to do WHATEVER WE WANT, when we play, because stating that relief should be given for a divot, implies that we believe ALL RULES ARE BAD, and don't follow ANY.

The rules makers, and many of those who defend them, imply that this rule about divots, while not perfect, is the only rule of the game, which will have ever been misinterpreted, and nobody in the history of the game has ever gotten relief, or taken relief to which they weren't entitled, honestly, either though their own doing, or by a rules official.

For "fairness", but you know life isn't fair, so to try and make golf as fair as possible isn't really necessary(Now that's a ridiculous rationale for not changing something, ITS IN THEIR SEVERAL TIMES). It's NOT AT ALL PREFERRABLE that the first guy in a final round 72 man field, BE GIVEN RELIEF, on a 51/49. call as judged by 100 officials(which means likely, his benefit of the relief on the close call is less), if this will result in my being given relief on a 100/0 lie in the final round when I have had to potentially dodge hundreds more divots, than the first guy did. You should prefer to play out of a clear, beaver pelt gouge, created by another players club, that every person on the planet would recognize it as such, THAN FOR SOMEONE TO BE GIVEN HONESTLY GIVEN RELIEF ON A CLOSE CALL, AS THE RULE IS UNDERSTOOD.

Just remember the main point! No rule as presently written has ever been purposely stretched or just outright disregarded by anyone, in any circumstance where they were using their established handicap, or under any circumstance where the "rules were being followed".

This is the "logic" you are up against.

Member Reviews · February 12

Ok, my last round was 12/23/23, got out this past Saturday. It was in the mid to upper 40's, and we got rained on for about 3 holes, with rain gloves getting wet. Other than playing with the rain gloves on, the handwarmers worked great. After removing rain gloves hands were damp and chilly.

The warmers were hot enough they warmed my hands back up, and with no rain I was able to take my golf glove off to putt, and play with just my golf glove on for the rest of the round with hands not feeling cold. As someone who plays throughout the winter when possible, I would recommend a set of these for the cost @ $40.

You might still need winter gloves below 40 degrees, but these will certainly give you some more warmth for the round. For the cost, I wish I had looked into them earlier.

February 9

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A rule for reliefs from a divot is not simple and goes against the basis of play it as it lies.

Wow that is really right back to the rules don't tell me it goes against something in the rules, so that other person should just keep quiet, and shouldn't have an opinion, because, he doesn't agree with the rules. Got it

February 9

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Its unfair that a bad shot can have a great result, just as its unfair when a good shot has a poor result.

Dave I appreciate your insight on the rules, and the rationale for them. As others have criticized me for not reading them word, for word, and implied that this therefore should render me unable to have an opinion, you have not.

I believe that the difference is that I have absolutely no problem with what is actually randomness, and acts of the higher power, like a ricochet off a tree, or a gust of wind that blows my ball into a pond, when the guy who hit 15 seconds before me had dead calm. I remember the OB discussion, as did cnosil. I do not think OB is "unfair", I just thought it was dumb, due to arbitrary reasoning, but that is not relevant here.

I guess my main point, and this is directed at the powers that be, not you, obviously is that to consider conditions created by actions(club divots) or omissions(footprint left in bunker) of other players the same as actually random outcomes, which all players are subject to equally is erroneous. They are created obstacles, which occur at unequal chances of occurrence. This is "unfair", and that is something rules should be created to eliminate. Now the consistency, manner, and how exactly to implement it, while difficult, should not be an excuse to do nothing. Consistent, or more consistent application, manner, process and routine, would be a 'work in progress" for sure. Inaction to correct something that is "actually unfair", which by its very definition is something that rules are created to correct, is cowardly, dismissive, and just plain wrong on part of the rules makers. That's just my opinion, and I know you don't agree, with it. But that is what makes this fun.

I also understand your points as to the difficulty, and that it may end up being the least consistent rule their is. I know golf doesn't want to be like any other sport, but how about with the best description possible you get 1 rules official request for divot, or no divot. If it is a divot you keep your relief, if not because you are "pushing the rule, and believe a mower scalp, may be a divot, even though you know better, and are denied, then you get no more relief, so hope you don't end up in the grand canyon beaver pelt divot I mentioned earlier , in the last round....(Never go for it I know).

Great Discussion Everyone!

cnosil · February 9

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

This is why the rules are written to minimize varied interpretation to have them applied consistently. The OB rule is one example. Hit the ball OB and you must take stroke and distance penalty unless you have invoked the MLR; many people consider; based on numerous forum discussion, that this rule is unfair.

Thanks for the response. I agree in part. Yes I remember vividly being party to the OB discussion. YIKES! I don't think that rule is "unfair", I just think its "dumb", because it is based on an arbitrary decision by someone likely over 100 years ago, that thought it should be treated differently than going into a pond. ANYWAYS! It's not unfair because you and I have an equal chance of striking out ball out of bounds off the tee, and neither one of us have done anything to affect to any degree what happens when the other strikes the ball.

I appreciate that the game wants the most consistency possible. It a great goal to have. But when people defending not making the best rule possible, acknowledge that its unfair, then based on definition this is acknowledging that I have been disadvantaged, by in this case the lack of rule, to protect me from being forced to play a much more difficult, shot every competitor was not exposed to equally....Setting aside of course ABSOLUTE RANDOMNESS of bounces off of all the crap around a golf course.

February 9

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Rules are intended to allow all players to be treated consistently, not necessarily fairly.

I can't believe I read this. Rules are enacted, and applied as consistently as possible, to ensure that any game is as FAIR AS POSSIBLE. To say that something is unfair, as I believe many have said many times, is to acknowledge that someone else has received an advantage. That is part of the definition of fair. To allow and sanction someone receiving an advantage, as in this case, is the antithesis of why you make rules, and to avoid ones responsibility.

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

would be nearly impossible to interpret consistently.

I could go on and on about this statement, AGAIN. This statement is asserting a fact, not already in evidence. NOBODY knows, how well or troublesome, the best written rule(which by the way could be changed as needed), could be applied, nor how many people, as has been suggested by some previously I'm not sure who, that players across the world at every level , would actively and immediately seek to "extort" this rule in every possible way, and and as if now possessed begin to cheat their buddies in play it as it lies events with them, taking relief without checking with anyone, if something is a divot or not. By the way if he is going to do it over divots, he's doing it already about everything else he can, no matter how well written that rule is. And he is going to continue to do it to you, until his is banned from the sport, or kicked out of your group!!

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The rules apply to the game of golf, it has nothing to do with the conditions of one’s course,

This has been its own multiple pages discussion in the past! Yes you can play by the same rules as the professionals, but because of conditions they have, you ARE NOT playing the same game in any fashion. Their score relative to what it could be, is directly benefitted by spectators to stop bounding balls, grandstands to stop over clubbed balls, from being a penalty, spectators to find lost balls, the list goes on and on. Now I'm not proposing that something needs to be done about any of these things, where the rules of golf are concerned. To state that when professionals and the rest of us are trying to put up the lowest score possible, that they are not benefitted, factually,, by the conditions under which they play, is to ignore reality plain and simple. Especially when their conditions render certain outcomes, and most importantly some rules of the game no longer applicable to them. I understand that not every inequity can, or should be corrected. To ignore the discrepancy or pretend it doesn't exist, is bad leadership.

19 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

but all I’m reading is is don’t care about the rules and because a professional event goes out of their way with using certain rules and have better conditions than I do I’m against the rules and will do my own thing.

I do care about the rules, but I care more about the fact that the people making the rules choose do ignore the fact, that they want me to follow rules, that actually aren't equally applicable to everyone who plays the game!! and since we've begun to throw darts, all I read from you is "I'm a mindless rules drone" and until the USGA & R&A tell me that a rule may need to changed, there can be no such thing, as a rule that needs to be changed."

fixyurdivot · February 8

51 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

And you are in a very small group that feel this way. But as I recall you aren’t keeping an official handicap so you could not play from a divot and not take any penalty.

And again we talking about changing the notion of play it as it lies for something that most golfers will never face or for the ones who do very rarely. The number of times this happens to a golfer isn’t worth changing that fundamental if the game

You are correct on the first, but that is entirely beside the point. I don't play out of divots, imperfections in bunkers, or from burned out hardpan in the middle of the fairway. Because the pro's are subjected to this 1% of the time compared to amateurs, or not at all. And I believe the rule makers are wrong! Not because I don't care about the game of golf, and I'm not willing to agree, just because they said so. I question the rules specifically because I do love this game, and believe the rules can be better!

Play it as it lies, has been mutilated to accommodate, professional players, with grandstands that prevent balls from going into ponds, grandstands that are used as backstops on drivable par 4's(I believe its actually a hole at the Waste Management this week) lift clean and place, when the slightest squish can be heard. I don't know about anybody else, but my public course has never declared lift, clean and place, so in the dead of winter, should I not lift clean and place(I'm sure someone will inform me if this is a decision I can legally make on my own according to rules of the game). Or is this a "judgement call" I am not allowed to make on my own.

Again if play it as it lies, allows exceptions for golfers who knowingly make bad decisions, or bad swings and their balls come to rest up against a grandstand which is CLEARLY, AND ABSOLUTELY VISIBLE TO ALL INVOLVED, through 100% their own doing. Then it is just ridiculous that golfers are not granted relief from something entirely beyond their control, that others are not faced with to an equal degree.

February 8

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Um..no, there is no consensus, no "vote", the player has a very specific criteria he needs to satisfy in determining whether his ball is Embedded or not. He might ask them, he might ask for an official if he's unsure, but these things aren't subject to the approval of the others.

So other than being followed by television cameras to be exposed. Nobody has ever taken "liberty" with what an "imbedded ball" is.

February 8

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I think we all can define when something is a divot, but can you tell me when a divot stops being a divot for all grass types and divot repair techniques?

I understand your point, but the fact of the matter is that players do not have to summon a rules official for ANYTHING, therefore two players can theoretically agree to take all the liberties they want, and you 5 groups behind will be none the wiser.

Again with the potential, actual verifiable disadvantage that I face as the last person, compared to the first person, and the fact that if people are willing to cheat, or allow others to cheat, or disregard the best explanation of when relief should be given, and go against the "integrity" of the game, I have no control over that. There is almost nothing any golfer can do about golfers taking liberties, who are all good buddies 4 twosomes ahead in your club championship. If they are going to take liberties about what is a divot, and when a divot stops being a divot(again as best as it can be described), then WHO CARES, because guess what , they are cheating about everything else as well.

FURTHERMORE , I believe, AND NOW WE ARE ASSUMING ABSOLUTE HONESTY AND ABSOLUTE INTEGRITY BY EVERYONE PLAYING THE GAME. If with ABSOLUTE INTEGRITY, AND HONESTY the two other golfers in the first threesome agreed that the 3rd, ball had come to rest in what based on their interpretation was a filling in divot, that based on their understanding of the rule, and description judged it still a DIVOT. Then I am 100% OK with that.

Because! Assuming all 70 golfers in front of me hit fairways, and leave a divot for 18 holes, I have now had to dodge 980 Divots, that the first guy did not. If he got a RULING by his partners, on an HONEST CLOSE CALL. ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC FOR HIM. All I care about is that on the 18 hole when my ball come to rest in the aforementioned, GRAND CANYON DEEP, BEAVER PELT GOUGE LEFT BY SOMEBODY IN FRONT OF ME, that my playing partners will rightly, and honestly grant me relief, and my chances of winning will not be reduced(however slightly), because the course has been decimated with 70 divots, left on every hole by every golfer in front of me, through ABSOLUTELY NO FAULT OF MY OWN. When with incrementally decreasing possibility, every golfer in front of me had FACTUALLY reduced chance of finding the same bad lie.

I AM 100% in favor of such imperfect rule, because I can to nothing about CHEATERS!!!

February 8

58 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So until a rule can be written that is fairly applied to all golfers across the world the rules as they stand for no relief from a divot is fair.

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The rules as they stand are fair

So a player is ok to ask his playing partner to agree or disagree that his ball is imbedded, or in its own pitch mark, and take action according to their consensus(AND I AM SURE I WILL BE BERATED THOROUGHLY, if INCORRECT, and he is under no obligation to call a rules official). . . Now he can call a rules official to judge, and he must certainly follow the officials ruling, once called , but this judgement while final, may as a matter of fact be incorrect. So this player may have just gotten a bad break factually, that another rules official may judge differently for a different player.

I appreciate yours, and Dave P's stance on this. It may be the way IT IS, but that does not as a matter of fact MAKE IT, FAIR, EQUITABLE, OR RIGHT! So in the long run (with the best definition humanly possible of what constitutes a divot, and when relief should, and shouldn't be given) it is "fairer and better" for the game to have someone play out of what is clearly a disintegrated beaver pelt gouge that others were not subject to, than for some whiner/cheater to be honestly told that what he believes is a divot is not, as judged by the best definition which can be come up with. In the end when those of you who are playing in sanctioned events, with your handicaps in play, or for all of us just for for fun. Do you really think that the someone who would be willing to purposely CHEAT ABOUT A FOOTPRINT IN A BUNKER, OR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T CLEARLY A DIVOT, isn't cheating you and everyone else, in everyway possible, as much as he can. Rules should not be made or not made because some may cheat, they should be made for honest players, who play and would judge if required to the best of their ability. And purposeful cheaters when found, should be banned from the professional game, club championships, whatever the sanctioned even is, forever. Or in your weekend game, if it matters that much to you, disinvited forever. I find the rationale, "because some may purposely, and knowingly cheat or be dishonest" in a game where integrity and honesty are supposed to be paramount, sadly laughable.

As most are aware, I am not a rules guru. I find it funny, and I'm sure someone can tell me what rule this is.

Play by the Rules and in the spirit of the game.

You are responsible for applying your own penalties if you breach a Rule, so that you cannot gain any potential advantage over your opponent in match play or other players in stroke play.

I find it very ironic, with these being 2/3 of the provisions of what I believe is Rule #1, of the GAME, that changes are not made to benefit honest, players, and players, who would judge things, as they believe them to be, to the best of their abilities, in trying to follow the rules, because some people may blatantly cheat, and are going to be knowingly dishonest.

If you really read between the lines, and the rationale of the rules, and why things are and aren't changed, as I read the explanations , that it really doesn't say too awful much good, about players of the game, from my point of view. We, can't have certain judgement calls on a (divot, or footprint in the bunker), by you, an official or anyone else, because you will cheat, are dishonest, and will seek purposely to benefit yourself and your friends, over others.

February 8

15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There is nothing fair in life or golf. Two golfers can hit the same tree and get two different results. That’s not fair but there’s nothing one can do about it.

This is not talking about the same thing. I pointed out earlier two players hitting the same tree, and the following result is the result of (not an exhaustive list) physics, speed, angle of approach at impact, diameter of the tree branch, denseness of bark, surface of bark, hitting leaves or other branches on the way out. None of which are created by actions of the other player.

Life may not be fair you are 100% correct. But rules for ANYTHING, designed to make things fair for all involved. If the player in front is not subject to playing out of the same number of divots as me, then this needs to be changed.

Michael.Sandoval33 · February 7

3 minutes ago, William P said:

The only stipulation I asked for was that they "play it forward" when the opportunity presents itself.

I am also a gifter, like many. I haven't had a lot of sets of clubs, one I gave to a work buddy, who was just getting started, and more recently I gave my set before my last purchase in 2020, to my brother who was just getting back into the game. I hadn't thought of it but from now on if there are more giftings , I'm going to insist like William P who've I've quoted, and insist on them being gifted on down the line.

silver & black · February 7

10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But that needs to be applicable to all golfers keeping a handicap. If my definition or determination is different from somebody else then the rule isn’t applied equally across the board. It’s why those who aren’t in support of this change point out when is a divot no longer a divot and how is that defined so everyone agrees

IMO there are a couple things with this. First if someone is moving their ball out of everything, that even remotely resembles an actual club made divot, then for the minority, compared to most of us who just keep a handicap as a "very loose comparison tool", who actually use their handicap in some sort of competition, wouldn't it be to the "loose interpretation golfers" detriment when he was forced to play off of something that his playing partners deemed was just barren ground, and not a club made divot.

Secondly I believe this is a "golf" problem not something you are saying, that the game of golf will utterly collapse if EVERYTHING IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE. It further goes back to believing that golf is somehow "better" than other sports. Soccer has endured without a tracker in the ball and on every players shoes to determine with 100 percent computer driven accuracy if offsides has occurred. While they are looking at robots to call balls and strikes, Baseball Umpires judge balls and strikes slightly differently, but it has endured. Football which is refereed, very poorly IMO, by guys doing the best they can is the most popular sport in this country.

They make the best rules they can, described as best they can, to make the game as fair as possible. And what happens when a player or referee or someone involved with the game shaves points, bets, or makes bad calls purposely, or uses drugs. They get banned for seasons, or for life. Ask Pete Rose, or Josh Gordon (Browns receiver 2015ish).

fixyurdivot · February 7

On 2/6/2024 at 10:45 AM, DaveP043 said:

Can you write a definition that can be consistently enforced, yet stops short of allowing preferred lies in the fairway at all times? Consider bare spots, areas scalped by mowers, surface irregularities, sand-filled divot holes, partially re-grown divot holes, all of the potential poor lies available in the fairway.

I would submit as it was intended golf was to be enforced by the player, and his playing partners. I would submit that a player in a divot could rather quickly have his playing partners look at his ball, and determine if they agree it is a "divot" created by the strike of a club. If no majority can be reached call an official. If the players can't be trusted to do the right thing where each other are concerned, then what's the point.

I believe that rather quickly whiners trying to push the envelop on things which "CLEARLY" are not divots created by the strike of the club, would find "word spreading like wildfire" throughout the tour as to their antics, and in the long run it would be detrimental to them to try and claim something "questionable" as a divot. And if they would maliciously, and purposefully try to help out their "buddies" then maybe that's something that should be brought to light. And this could rather easily for how often I think it would come up be reviewed. Not that there wouldn't be zoomed in 1000 times TV angles of it, but an official could snap on auto shutter, 50 pictures in 5 seconds to be used as a review, for loss of money, or fed ex cup points, whatever, again if word gets around that some players are getting to liberal with their judging.

The rules of golf aren't perfect, if they were there would NEVER have been ANY changes. That's OK, non-perfection of their rules is something golf needs to embrace a little more readily. Doesn't have to be a PERFECT RULE, THERE IS NO SUCH THING! Just needs to be the very best they can come up with, in order to remedy, a known, predictable, expected codified disadvantage that some are going to be increasingly subjected to, and others less so, or not at all.

February 6

20 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

and fix ball marks that everyone just gives up and starts exhibiting the same bad behavior. I'm happy to say that everyone in my group does their part to keep the course in shape.

Oh I try to do my part all the time, on another thread I noted this. Sadly I don't just think it's jerks....It's people who play a lot of golf and JUST DON'T GIVE A CRAP! Late October Early November here in NE Ohio, Its highs of 45-50 most of the time, most people playing in this kind of weather are pretty dedicated golfers. On a round in November... I ACTUALLY KEPT TRACK. I fixed a total of 38 deep gouging ball marks, 9 on one green, NOT COUNTING MY OWN, during one 18 hole round. I am to be "legally" hindered by these people....I think not! A couple of times I had to move my ball off to the side because I could not even out the gouging ball marks left, which were now hard as rocks! Didn't take a stroke! Pro's are NEVER faced with deep gouging un-repaired ball marks on a green!!

RickyBobby_PR · February 6

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The only people doing this piling on are the great nebulous "you". Not any individual, but the people who play the game are inflicting these problems on themselves and on other players.

We have had this spirited discussion before. One should not be hindered by a creation, or omission of another competitor, especially when those conditions are unknowable, and unavoidable but for the actions of another player. Otherwise I would submit that then ALL KNOWABLE obstacles on the course, should be marked and measured out for the pros. Knowing how far from the tee or fairway, each and every TV tower, port a potty, Ad sign is on the course. Lets NOT just consider it a "bad break" when player A's approach is over-clubbed, and end up against the TV tower, which he was clearly aware was there, just like EVERY OTHER GOLFER, because they would be provided with information on how much room there is. If some golfers are going to be hindered by other golfers, for not avoiding unknowable things, then each and every golfer should be hindered by ALL KNOWABLE THINGS. After all hitting a ball behind something you know is there, is not a "bad break", it's bad execution or decision making, and said player should have to live with it.

The same logic should be applied, even more so in the case of TI OBST. If I have to play out of, or take an unplayable because my ball ends up in a clear divot in the fairway deeper than my ball, then I should be benefitted for avoiding all of the TV towers we all know are there, when others do not. They should either have to take an unplayable, or JUST CONSIDER IT A BAD BREAK, and play over the TV tower. Play it as it lies!

Another Steve · February 6

8 hours ago, Another Steve said:

We don’t play in sheep pastures anymore

This is a valid point. I can only believe that play it as it lies began because a good lie, was the exception to the rule, and those were the breaks back then. However now the courses on which the pros play it as it lies, have absolutely no comparison to the conditions on which a vast majority of us are expected to play it as it lies. They pile on by penalizing us further with divots, and unraked bunkers. Golf, golfers, and the rule makers, need to dispense with the fantasy that we are playing the same game as professionals.

February 5

2 hours ago, ShimmyCocoBop said:

"bad break" and therefore you should be entitled to relief, should the reverse be true and you should not be entitled to a "good break"?

I would submit that divots, and unraked bunkers, are not bad breaks. They are outcomes, which one can predict are in fact going to occur at some point in time. That is not a bad break. The fact that they can't come up with the PERFECT solution, IMHO opinion doesn't mean they should do nothing.

A bad break are you and I hitting our ball into the same tree, and yours bouncing onto the green, and mine ricocheting into the pond next to the green. Neither one of us has any control over what the other guys outcome after striking the tree was. That is a bad break. Me being the first golfer of the day and you the second, and after I play out of the pristinely manicured traps, and you encountering what looks like the beach at Normandy, because I choose to stroll around in there, or it looks like I played a beach volleyball match in there is not a bad break. Your lie in the same bunker I was in is you being disadvantaged by someone who doesn't care, or does it because they are an A-hole. You and I are no longer playing the same game. Your lie in the bunker will have no chance of being like mine. I can choose to leave it like the "Surface of the Moon". That's OK you just got a bad break. You should not have hit it in the bunker! The "Moonscape" I left you is just a little bonus, them are the breaks!!!

I am not saying anything about your position ShimmyCocoBop, I just used your sentence, for this example!

MNBogies · February 5

I'm not going to be drawn into the argument that this leads too. I believe on a thread a few months ago. My argument remains the same. A following golfer especially in a professional tournament where , All professional tours with their pristine, courses, and every real impediment to play is marked as ground under repair before the event, on every hole. And prior to play commencing all divots have been meticulously filled and manicured by the course staff. I find it hard to believe that 14 -20 individual volunteers could not be found, with proper instruction from staff, on how to properly fill each divot after it is made.

If the person isn't going to be penalized immediately for not properly filling his divot, or raking a bunker, this is then not a BAD BREAK, it is a codified advantage to early players over late ones! If the first player for his first round, has no chance of finding an unfilled divot, or improperly raked bunker, and he as a 0% chance of receiving "a bad break" to find either conditions, then following players should also receive the same 0% chance. However "best" doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be the "best solution" that can be arrived at.

Oh and don't even get me started on the recreational game, where the divots on the courses I play, HAVE NEVER been fixed by the course, and from what I can see by any other golfer for that matter, and many places do not have sand to fill divots with in the carts. And assuming that my course does rake the bunkers before play, and 100 people play before me and NONE of them rake the bunkers. The first golfer who goes out and finds bunkers, got a BAD BREAK I GUESS, by hitting into the bunkers, but he find well manicured bunkers, with ZERO imperfections in the raking, and the best lies that can be found. I am the 101st golfer, I hit the same 3 bunkers as the first golfer, which every other golfer has hit( and again nobody has raked) Is it just a "bad break" that I am left to play off the surface of the moon, when every golfer before me had incrementally better conditions, when hitting the same bunkers. It is not! It is no more surprising, or unexpected, than golfers ending up behind tv towers, or port a potties, or in some spectators lawn chair.

The fact that my moon scenario, albeit very far fetched is possible, means that it is an advantage for some, and a disadvantage for others, which should be addressed as best as possible, for professional and recreational play. It is not a bad break. A bad break would be something that happens, and nobody, would have expected it. Leaving 150 unfilled divots in the fairway for the last guy, is indifference to a flawed situation, and the predictable potential disadvantage to the last guy of the day, that the first guy of the day was not in any way subject to. That is NOT a BAD BREAK!

CFreddie · January 25

On 1/24/2024 at 10:59 AM, Josh Parker said:

So, my question to the Spies is this: As you get better at the game of golf, does it become less fun and more about a personal contest within yourself or does the game continue to remain just as fun as when you started?

Great Topic: I will say what have said on similar things. Caution is the word! I let the game, and the desire to get better, get the best of me a few years ago now, and for clarity I am 57, and play with two older brothers 10, and 8 years older. I was expecting too much, and was not really having any fun at all playing. I was playing poorly, and quit after 9 holes, due to UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS, and carried my bag to my car and drove home.

Don't want to sound like the grim reaper, but on the way home I thought to myself, what if something happens to one of my brothers before we play again, or me. This would be my last experience with them. I realized just how much power I was giving away to what is really, a completely, meaningless, mind numbing game, that for 99 percent of us, we are never going to WIN anything of real value playing. The value is in spending quality time with people you care about. I swore on that day I would never let this game get to me EVER AGAIN.

I am happy to report I have taken several 8-10's, and even had a round where I shot 83, and had 42 putts. Have done it all with a smile on my face, and thoroughly enjoyed each and every minute of it. BILL MURRAY in "Meatballs" had it right.... "It just doesn't matter.. It just doesn't matter"

cksurfdude · January 12

12 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I’ve played Pine Lakes

Ok thanks for all the info. Now I am sad that we switched off of Pine Lakes. We had a 0945 tee time there, and its on our last day. We wanted to keep the possibility of playing another 18 on the last day a little more open, so I had our guy switch us out to Shaftsbury Glen for an 8 AM tee time.

Well now that I think of it, if we can get in at Pine Lakes in the Afternoon on the last day, seems like one we should play!!

January 11

On 1/10/2024 at 1:42 PM, FrogginBullfish said:

Insert many F bombs here...

I haven't heard anything yet. I have to be honest..... I am an Alpine / Esteban Ocon fan. I would like to see Alpine pick up Gunther!!!!!

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