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PAR is a mental health issue for golfers.... one man's opinion


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6 minutes ago, Javs said:

I believe it was Hogan that said the most important shot is the next one. Meaning play this shot to put yourself in the best shape for the next one. Nothing else matters. 

BOOM !!!      LOL

No mention of PAR       LOL 

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1 minute ago, richk9holes said:

Boxing matches with no caps on rounds were once the gold standard for determining the heavyweight champ but now we use 12 rounds of 3 minute length. 

I don't think the minutiae of the standards matter so much as the idea that there are competitive standards everyone follows.

Would it be ok if I said that would be most equivalent to a course being 18 holes?   Or a tournament being 18, 36, 54 or 72 ?

Courses used to have all sorts of hole amounts.  22, 12 etc

But very good point.

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1 minute ago, Badams69 said:

Would it be ok if I said that would be most equivalent to a course being 18 holes?   Or a tournament being 18, 36, 54 or 72 ?

Courses used to have all sorts of hole amounts.  22, 12 etc

But very good point.

No, my point is that it is a concept that once didn't exist, and a legacy of champions were crowned without timing rounds. Now we do time 12 three minute rounds, and there is a new legacy of champions who rose in those conditions.

 

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29 minutes ago, Javs said:

I love discussing the mental aspect of this great game! My Dad used to say you can see a man’s make up and character during a round of golf.

Absolutely!  Golfers are good people.  Except the cheaters!  

As you point out CHARACTER revealed.

I admit it has been super tough as I age and play far less, find myself hitting horrific shots and just having to seal my lips, hide my head in a sense.  But try desperately not to rage or anything of that sort.  It is hard knowing how many hours I spent on this for years, to see what I've become  - LOL

Mental game is where it's at.  Golf is best achieved, Mickelson said to Feherty, by super smart people and super dumb people.  Those that just do and don't question, and those that fully grasp it and execute that vision.  

I know a lot of super players who don't fit either end, but it is a good point for kicks.

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Just now, richk9holes said:

No, my point is that it is a concept that once didn't exist, and a legacy of champions were crowned without timing rounds. Now we do time 12 three minute rounds, and there is a new legacy of champions who rose in those conditions.

 

Gotcha!   

I like your style good points. 

Although I do think they simply didn't give two spits about those old fighters.  Might as well have been dogs or cock fights.  Lot of disregard there.  But that is recency bias I suppose.  Sure I would have watched the heck out of those old fights had I been around.  Unless I could use my 4-iron, I definitely wouldn't have been a participant.🤓

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Another example is all the home runs not hit prior to baseball incorporating fences universally.

It was a different game, with different statistics. Babe Ruth led the league with 12 homers one year and he was known for throwing the ball. Put those fences up and he became a legend.

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3 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

Another example is all the home runs not hit prior to baseball incorporating fences universally.

It was a different game, with different statistics. Babe Ruth led the league with 12 homers one year and he was known for throwing the ball. Put those fences up and he became a legend.

You know I follow baseball and thought I knew enough about those days...... but that is an interesting fact that you just don't hear enough about!    Imagine without fences the bigger guys weren't the ones getting "homers".

 

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I did some brainstorming and made a mini whirling dervish I think.

I thought of the game, pre-par-concept. The groups go out and score at will with each group hitting after waiting for the group in front of them to get in the hole.

By the 3rd hole many people are complaining about my great-great...-etc-grand____ who is in the Mr. Hyde phase of his bipolar round.

"HOW MANY SHOTS IS THIS GUY GONNA TAKE?" The overarching cry from everyone backed up on the course swells.

Over time as the game grew in popularity that guy scoring 17 on the first 2 holes bc he rolled outta the sheets without stretching just became untenable to accomodate.

Par for the course, suggested pace of play, concepts of handicaps and course ratings all developed over time as the game evolved to require them.

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I love discussing the mental aspect of this great game! My Dad used to say you can see a man’s make up and character during a round of golf.
My meditation teacher always gets annoyed at me when I tell him that a round of golf is a far better test of my meditation practice and my headspace than any meditation retreat.

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3 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

My meditation teacher always gets annoyed at me when I tell him that a round of golf is a far better test of my meditation practice and my headspace than any meditation retreat.

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I agree and would fire them, LOL

Play like a champion today!

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1 minute ago, Javs said:

I agree and would fire them, LOL

Seconded, I think the young grasshopper has surpassed the wise dragon, or whatever. Choose your metaphor.

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So, I would like to play a little devil's advocate here. I am (and always have been) one of those ultra-competitive persons who absolutely hates losing...at anything. I have had a goal of shooting par (70) from the tips on one of our clubs' 2 courses for over a year. For a while, I was really struggling with a variety of parts of my game, not the least of which was the driver. I've taught myself how to hit a relatively consistent high cut that eats up a lot of yardage, and even though I am 49, I fortunately still have enough distance throughout the bag to make that score a real possibility. In the past 3 weeks, I have a 36 on the front 9 and another round of 76, so I'm getting close even with very limited practice time due to work being crazy. Having something as concrete as the score of 70 on which to focus has really forced me to bear down and think my way around the course much more carefully.

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14 minutes ago, ctg44 said:

So, I would like to play a little devil's advocate here. I am (and always have been) one of those ultra-competitive persons who absolutely hates losing...at anything. I have had a goal of shooting par (70) from the tips on one of our clubs' 2 courses for over a year. For a while, I was really struggling with a variety of parts of my game, not the least of which was the driver. I've taught myself how to hit a relatively consistent high cut that eats up a lot of yardage, and even though I am 49, I fortunately still have enough distance throughout the bag to make that score a real possibility. In the past 3 weeks, I have a 36 on the front 9 and another round of 76, so I'm getting close even with very limited practice time due to work being crazy. Having something as concrete as the score of 70 on which to focus has really forced me to bear down and think my way around the course much more carefully.

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I can see your point. However, while the goal is to shoot under Par. I would venture to say while you are playing your approach to achieving that goal is taking one shot at a time. I would also offer that not fixating during the round and keeping focus on the next shot would help. It will free your mind of undue pressure. There are enough demons lurking in golf. I find just focusing on one shot at a time frees my mind.

Play like a champion today!

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5 hours ago, Badams69 said:

Fair enough.  And honestly I don't see par going anywhere and personally don't have an issue with it.

However - golf was around for quite some time before PAR was established in 1911.  Does it serve some purposes? Sure. 

But - I'm simply saying that the excitement or nerves are not always positive.  They do make it neater when you do well, but outside of those instances ...... how many times does it detract from the process of simply scoring your best free from outside expectations, conscious or not, it is there ..... PAR. LOL

I just get a kick out of thinking through these types of things especially in a sport I love.  Talking through things like this with other golfers, especially those who come to me for help has always been fruitful.   I found removing any obstacle apparent or otherwise to good play, was one additional element to playing their best, the quickest.  

Ex:  We'd list the holes characteristics with our teams and not show them the card.  Then have them work out what could derail them on a hole and what could ensure a smooth hole free of trouble. The newbies would go as far to learn that they scored better hitting 7 and 9 irons as often as they possibly could.  Prior to that they were always told, it's a par 4 you try to get there in two.

Their scores would come down so fast.        The better players we would figure out their favorite two yardages and do whatever was needed to play to that yardage as many times as possible during a round.   Especially if their short game was relatively suspect.  Either way ...... with no awareness of par, they simply would mathematically plan their way around the course pre-round.  And then when they played they had a plan to fall back on and learned to ignore par altogether.  They didn't discuss it, they didn't ask about it.  They just played.  Obviously it helped the pure beginners far more but it had an impact on the better players also. 

Freed them up to just play, they didn't think birdie eagle or double they just played. We sent three medalists to state that year. Not a traditionally deep school for high end golfers, but we had 3 and they beat kids that played much higher levels than they did outside school golf.

Just an example of how I've seen this thinking help golfers.

Still curious on your thoughts about the questions asked about course architecture. 

Maybe this is more for brand new golfers, but isn't the frustration and some of the so called negative emotions part of what makes golf and all other sports great?

It drives us to improve and become better. I guess negative isn't always truly a negative.

Again I get what you're saying in a sense from if we were creating Golf from scratch there would be some large changes, however as it stands there are so many Systems in place around "par" that taking it away would be impossible.

That all being said any Golfer can play any course as they see fit, smart, hero or otherwise!

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4 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Still curious on your thoughts about the questions asked about course architecture. 

Maybe this is more for brand new golfers, but isn't the frustration and some of the so called negative emotions part of what makes golf and all other sports great?

It drives us to improve and become better. I guess negative isn't always truly a negative.

Again I get what you're saying in a sense from if we were creating Golf from scratch there would be some large changes, however as it stands there are so many Systems in place around "par" that taking it away would be impossible.

That all being said any Golfer can play any course as they see fit, smart, hero or otherwise!

Perhaps our OP would weigh in - I think his point may be or at least may be evolving to we each should develop our own "par" for the course based upon our ability.  

 

This thread has really gotten some legs.  My sister is in town for a visit and I wasn't online much yesterday so I've missed a lot.  I'm still back on the Billy Casper laying up on a par 3 in the US Open comment.  I had forgotten that but by the time I was cutting my teeth on the game in the 60's it was legendary. 

 

I just finished reading a book called "The Match."  Great easy read if any of you are interested.  It's a story about a match pitting two car salesman against Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson at Cypress Point.  True story it went to the 18th hole with Hogan and Nelson winning 1 up.  (Okay the "car salesman were Ken Venturi and Harvie Ward who was the British Am champion at the time)  At any rate when they got to 16 we learned that Hogan always laid up on that par 3 in tournament play.  He also laid up on the par 4 11th at August.  It was a very different era for sure, different technology, different course conditions, different everything and this book does a great job of chronicling it - for example Venturi was struggling with whether or not to turn pro because he was making so much in sales - Nelson and Hogan both had to work as club pros in the offseason where they earned their real living.  The distances that they hit their shots and the length of the courses that they played were much more in keeping with what many of us face.  We would do well to study how they tackled it.  I've mentioned on numerous occasions that we'd be better off looking into the bags of LPGA players and follow their lead on equipment or even on how to play holes.  However, the younger women on tour are now bombing it well past most of us, there games are evolving - no surprise I suppose.

 

I agree with our new dad that the mental challenges of golf and other sports are a big part of what makes them fun.  I've played baseball, chess and golf at somewhat competitive levels (played football and basketball in high school), they are all challenging mentally - there is something to stepping into the batters box against a guy who throws 90 plus miles and hour but at any moment may drop a curve ball in - there is a legitimate fear factor involved, but then there's the guy who can't top 81 or 82 but you can't seem to ever square him up.  

 

Sports are fun and made more so by the mental/emotional pressure that they bring.  How do we think and act under pressure - golf has a great way of ferreting that out.  

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It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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9 hours ago, ctg44 said:

So, I would like to play a little devil's advocate here. I am (and always have been) one of those ultra-competitive persons who absolutely hates losing...at anything. I have had a goal of shooting par (70) from the tips on one of our clubs' 2 courses for over a year. For a while, I was really struggling with a variety of parts of my game, not the least of which was the driver. I've taught myself how to hit a relatively consistent high cut that eats up a lot of yardage, and even though I am 49, I fortunately still have enough distance throughout the bag to make that score a real possibility. In the past 3 weeks, I have a 36 on the front 9 and another round of 76, so I'm getting close even with very limited practice time due to work being crazy. Having something as concrete as the score of 70 on which to focus has really forced me to bear down and think my way around the course much more carefully.
 

I am not sure who you are playing devils advocate for.   You have a goal of making a particular score.   During your round are you focused on the "par" for the hole or how you can take he fewest strokes to get in the hole from where your ball is positioned?   Think about if you hit a less than perfect tee shot on a par 4 (here to illustrate the point of the OP) are you thinking I need to get this next shot on the green or what is my best option to avoid the risk of making a big score?

 

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13 hours ago, Badams69 said:

Ex:  We'd list the holes characteristics with our teams and not show them the card.  Then have them work out what could derail them on a hole and what could ensure a smooth hole free of trouble. The newbies would go as far to learn that they scored better hitting 7 and 9 irons as often as they possibly could.  Prior to that they were always told, it's a par 4 you try to get there in two.

Their scores would come down so fast.        The better players we would figure out their favorite two yardages and do whatever was needed to play to that yardage as many times as possible during a round.   Especially if their short game was relatively suspect.  Either way ...... with no awareness of par, they simply would mathematically plan their way around the course pre-round. 

This is called course management and is what players should do to ignore the notion of PAR.   you are now saying what many of us have stated throughout the thread; you are advocating for better course management.   One such mathematical plan is called DECADE.  

However,  I disagree with your strategy 🙂   It is best to advance the ball as far as possible to increase the opportunity for a lower score.   If you were tasked with tossing a ball into a 3 foot circle drawn on the green,   would you be more successful if you stood 5 feet from the circle or 50 feet from the circle?  That said, if a player is prone to taking penalties with driver,  they should consider a different strategy but still one that advances the ball as far as possible but minimizes the chances that they will incur a penalty.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
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8 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Still curious on your thoughts about the questions asked about course architecture. 

Maybe this is more for brand new golfers, but isn't the frustration and some of the so called negative emotions part of what makes golf and all other sports great?

It drives us to improve and become better. I guess negative isn't always truly a negative.

Again I get what you're saying in a sense from if we were creating Golf from scratch there would be some large changes, however as it stands there are so many Systems in place around "par" that taking it away would be impossible.

That all being said any Golfer can play any course as they see fit, smart, hero or otherwise!

Good question and it would matter.  Keep in mind I am not trying to start some underground effort to abolish PAR.  Sometimes it is helpful to bring things to light that are so entrenched that they aren't even discussed, is all. 

The architecture may or may not change.  Courses developed into 18 holes from a variety of hole amounts.  I've read from 22 holes to 12 holes and all between.  They moved to 18.  This had nothing to do with par being established.  It happened eons before par existed. 

I sense a disconnect between the nature of my point, and that is likely my fault.  I'm not at odds with PAR. Or see it as unattainable,  and thus frustrating.   I simply mean it isn't discussed or viewed properly.  I've cited dozens upon dozens of examples that are abound in the golf world, no golfer has ever totally escaped the effects.  If one says they have, it's most likely they are lying to "right fight".  lol 

One ex: the view of "i have a birdie putt" and "eagle putt" .... the label is simply a reference point for the statement easily known to other golfers and that is great.  What isn't great .......?     It takes on a nature of exactly the phrasing, each putt is different in nature and thus needs a label, not verbally but psychologically.  Kinda of like how people put their best foot forward for x or y.  They sense their golf game has to step up for this moment.  in a sense.   It heightens things and that is a rush and all, but doesn't mean it is overall best for someone's score consistently.   Because that hype, has pitfalls when one of those putts is missed ..... and spirals when another miss of that type follows.   We both know it happens all throughout the game.

"That all being said any Golfer can play any course as they see fit, smart, hero or otherwise!"

Totally agree - but they normally DON'T!  Even if they often do, when they don't ....... often PAR is looming.

WITB

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HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

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I am not sure who you are playing devils advocate for...Think about if you hit a less than perfect tee shot on a par 4 (here to illustrate the point of the OP) are you thinking I need to get this next shot on the green or what is my best option to avoid the risk of making a big score?
 


That last section is my key point, which is to reset my brain, take a clean practice swing for the lie in which I have found myself, and attack the pin if possible after a bad shot. If attacking me pin isn't possible, I try to be creative to put myself in the best position on thst next shot to be able to attack the pin to get the lowest score possible. Playing 9 hole practice rounds after work on foot has let me do this better than ever before, because if I have the course to myself as I often do, I can drop 5 balls in the rough under a tree and try a variety of shot types. If the only golf one plays is Saturday morning golf with the guys, approaching par (and improvements past it) are going to be very difficult. That was really a problem for me in the past until we joined a private club that is saving us money over what we'd be spending to play as much golf as.my wife, son, and I play each month and giving me a lot of opportunities for quick practice rounds and range sessions. Even what we were spending before joining was almost the same as we are now, and neither my wife nor I were playing anywhere near this much golf.

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24 minutes ago, Badams69 said:

Good question and it would matter.  Keep in mind I am not trying to start some underground effort to abolish PAR.  Sometimes it is helpful to bring things to light that are so entrenched that they aren't even discussed, is all. 

The architecture may or may not change.  Courses developed into 18 holes from a variety of hole amounts.  I've read from 22 holes to 12 holes and all between.  They moved to 18.  This had nothing to do with par being established.  It happened eons before par existed. 

I sense a disconnect between the nature of my point, and that is likely my fault.  I'm not at odds with PAR. Or see it as unattainable,  and thus frustrating.   I simply mean it isn't discussed or viewed properly.  I've cited dozens upon dozens of examples that are abound in the golf world, no golfer has ever totally escaped the effects.  If one says they have, it's most likely they are lying to "right fight".  lol 

One ex: the view of "i have a birdie putt" and "eagle putt" .... the label is simply a reference point for the statement easily known to other golfers and that is great.  What isn't great .......?     It takes on a nature of exactly the phrasing, each putt is different in nature and thus needs a label, not verbally but psychologically.  Kinda of like how people put their best foot forward for x or y.  They sense their golf game has to step up for this moment.  in a sense.   It heightens things and that is a rush and all, but doesn't mean it is overall best for someone's score consistently.   Because that hype, has pitfalls when one of those putts is missed ..... and spirals when another miss of that type follows.   We both know it happens all throughout the game.

"That all being said any Golfer can play any course as they see fit, smart, hero or otherwise!"

Totally agree - but they normally DON'T!  Even if they often do, when they don't ....... often PAR is looming.

I think a simple summary of your overall point is that you don't care what PAR is or that it is used but that players are negatively influenced by that number.   

Players chose shots that may result in a higher score because of the influence this number.   Players feel more pressure over a 3 foot BIRDIE putt than a 3 foot PAR or BOGEY putt.  

I 100% agree with your point.  Looking at it differently, if we were able to ignore par,  your competition still has that same influence.   Your competitor has a close putt for a 3 and you have a longer putt for 3;  it creates pressure and potentially bad decision making.  

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22 minutes ago, ctg44 said:

That last section is my key point, which is to reset my brain, take a clean practice swing for the lie in which I have found myself, and attack the pin if possible after a bad shot. 

 

Why are you thinking "attack the pin"?  Do you attack the pin every time you have a shot at the green?

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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

This is called course management and is what players should do to ignore the notion of PAR.   you are now saying what many of us have stated throughout the thread; you are advocating for better course management.   One such mathematical plan is called DECADE.  

However,  I disagree with your strategy 🙂   It is best to advance the ball as far as possible to increase the opportunity for a lower score.   If you were tasked with tossing a ball into a 3 foot circle drawn on the green,   would you be more successful if you stood 5 feet from the circle or 50 feet from the circle?  That said, if a player is prone to taking penalties with driver,  they should consider a different strategy but still one that advances the ball as far as possible but minimizes the chances that they will incur a penalty.  

Fair.  Keep in mind, discussing how to deal with the point I put forth in the thread, is not identical to the point put forth. One is recognizing the other is coping.   I still haven't heard anything denying how PAR is perceived in our game, and how it permeates perception.  Heard far more to say it is deeper than I thought and I already thought it was ocean deep.

As stated before, Broadie and Fawcett each do validate or preach exactly what you state. And I believe it 100%.   With that said, although built on statistics, it does boil down to a general rule to recognize benefits of knowing tipping points.  But you have to know the tipping points and also not ignore the individual executing the plan simultaneously.

The example I gave was within a response to another post a side point within the discussion (but also showed me the benefit of removing par from the brain)

1. If discussing the repeated use of say a 7 iron, that I was referencing, keep in mind ... we were dealing with some pure beginner golfers having to enter tournament play weeks after starting the game. 

They had to find a way to navigate a course, not only in the least strokes but also with an amount of golf balls they could actually carry in their bag - LOL. but serious they could lose em all.

2. Not sure that anything i stated disagreed with what you state "advance as far as possible to increase opportunity for a lower score". 

In this instance, player (who shoots 68-75) says they prefer their 9i to their pw and not by just a tad ......  If they hit into their 9i zone 5 times a round and their PW zone 5 times (which we did make them prove in play without knowing it) their chances dramatically changed for a) knocking it stiff b) avoiding major misses.   

One thing we all know is that as lofts increase on full shots there is a tipping point where hitting it full becomes less reliable.  Balls can ride up the face or some have tendency to dig too much and long/short dispersion gets out of hand even if just an additional 5-8 yards. Also for most golfers a normal full swing is often more reliable than their touch swing that they don't have locked in.  So in one of the instance by getting to 9i yardage rather than moving into PW or feel wedges.  They actually increased their particular odds.  Because their stock offering was far more reliable.  Thus ..... getting to 9i was in accordance of as far as possible to increase their opportunity for lower score.  Or else we wouldn't have advised it.   Did it always work?  Don't know.  But I am confident it helped them avoid higher scores.  relative terms as this kid was low 70s and 60s but while they were adequate short game, they weren't mickelson or anything.

So - while in general, you are correct and yes that is what Broadie and Fawcett discuss ....... it is, like lots of things, nuanced to the golfer in question.    We did have others who were good with driver and stone dead with their short game ..... they bombed it and dealt with the remainder to their benefit.  

You'll be happy to know that we also taught them to use the google maps and the measuring tool to find their driver holes and identify holes where driver would not have the needed room.    Our kids were well versed in the concepts put forth by Fawcett.  But, we didn't just blindly follow to the point players didn't get to highlight their strength over their individual weaknesses.

WITB

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HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

IRONS: Bridgestone Tour Stage TS-202 (5-PW)  /  Yamaha Inpres XV Forged (5-PW)   /   Ping Eye2 (3-S)

WEDGES: Callaway MackDaddy2 52*/56*

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12 hours ago, ctg44 said:

So, I would like to play a little devil's advocate here. I am (and always have been) one of those ultra-competitive persons who absolutely hates losing...at anything. I have had a goal of shooting par (70) from the tips on one of our clubs' 2 courses for over a year. For a while, I was really struggling with a variety of parts of my game, not the least of which was the driver. I've taught myself how to hit a relatively consistent high cut that eats up a lot of yardage, and even though I am 49, I fortunately still have enough distance throughout the bag to make that score a real possibility. In the past 3 weeks, I have a 36 on the front 9 and another round of 76, so I'm getting close even with very limited practice time due to work being crazy. Having something as concrete as the score of 70 on which to focus has really forced me to bear down and think my way around the course much more carefully.

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Fair to say I have posted a few times in this thread.  One thing I hope is not coming across is ..... having goals in golf is bad.  I've even mentioned that for individual play PAR can serve as an opponent of sorts.

Personally I think it is great that you are striving and sounds like you're close to the goal put forth!

I have other thoughts relative to this aligned with other points I've made, but in this instance I like that it is driving you.     With that said ..... if par didn't exist, I sense you wouldn't be aimlessly wondering the course wondering how you would establish a goal for yourself, it would just be different.

Heck, I even wonder aloud if that goal, absent PAR, might be lower !!!!!  smile        might not be

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HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

IRONS: Bridgestone Tour Stage TS-202 (5-PW)  /  Yamaha Inpres XV Forged (5-PW)   /   Ping Eye2 (3-S)

WEDGES: Callaway MackDaddy2 52*/56*

PUTTER: Ping Zing2 /  Anser4  /  Bobby Grace LoPro   / Bobby Grace Fat Lady Swings

BALLS:   :srixon-small:  Z-Star    :vice:  Pro +

:ping-small:        :callaway-logo-1:   :cobra-small:   :1332069271_TommyArmour:      :bobby-grace-1:   :adams-small:      :cleveland-small: 

 

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5 hours ago, revkev said:

Perhaps our OP would weigh in - I think his point may be or at least may be evolving to we each should develop our own "par" for the course based upon our ability.  

 

This thread has really gotten some legs.  My sister is in town for a visit and I wasn't online much yesterday so I've missed a lot.  I'm still back on the Billy Casper laying up on a par 3 in the US Open comment.  I had forgotten that but by the time I was cutting my teeth on the game in the 60's it was legendary. 

 

I just finished reading a book called "The Match."  Great easy read if any of you are interested.  It's a story about a match pitting two car salesman against Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson at Cypress Point.  True story it went to the 18th hole with Hogan and Nelson winning 1 up.  (Okay the "car salesman were Ken Venturi and Harvie Ward who was the British Am champion at the time)  At any rate when they got to 16 we learned that Hogan always laid up on that par 3 in tournament play.  He also laid up on the par 4 11th at August.  It was a very different era for sure, different technology, different course conditions, different everything and this book does a great job of chronicling it - for example Venturi was struggling with whether or not to turn pro because he was making so much in sales - Nelson and Hogan both had to work as club pros in the offseason where they earned their real living.  The distances that they hit their shots and the length of the courses that they played were much more in keeping with what many of us face.  We would do well to study how they tackled it.  I've mentioned on numerous occasions that we'd be better off looking into the bags of LPGA players and follow their lead on equipment or even on how to play holes.  However, the younger women on tour are now bombing it well past most of us, there games are evolving - no surprise I suppose.

 

I agree with our new dad that the mental challenges of golf and other sports are a big part of what makes them fun.  I've played baseball, chess and golf at somewhat competitive levels (played football and basketball in high school), they are all challenging mentally - there is something to stepping into the batters box against a guy who throws 90 plus miles and hour but at any moment may drop a curve ball in - there is a legitimate fear factor involved, but then there's the guy who can't top 81 or 82 but you can't seem to ever square him up.  

 

Sports are fun and made more so by the mental/emotional pressure that they bring.  How do we think and act under pressure - golf has a great way of ferreting that out.  

Great read!  Look forward to checking that book out..  Had the great pleasure of spending time with Byron Nelson when I was a young golfer.  He was so generous to me!

As for personal par?   In the game as we know it, it has a place.  If nothing else it is a tool to help manage expectations.  I posted the origins of par earlier in the thread.  It was interesting how they describe bogey as what an amateur should expect on a hole if played well.  And that is fairly accurate from what we see day in and day out on the course.

As it pertains to my point for the thread where PAR is a mental hurdle.  I think it is evidence to support that claim.  WHY .... would we need to alter par as a strategy?  Well ...... because it is a mental obstacle to our best golf.   

Not exactly sure why there has been push back on this point within this thread.  The evidence is immense and abundant.  I've seen more evidence it's a real thing in the rebuttals here than in my points or others who have semi-concurred. LOL

Either way I am glad you shared that and if Hogan or Casper can ignore a pre-prescribed way to play a hole ....... others should take much more note of that than they normally do.    

AND many do quite often.  Until they don't !!!!   Thus the mental health issue strikes again😬

WITB

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HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

IRONS: Bridgestone Tour Stage TS-202 (5-PW)  /  Yamaha Inpres XV Forged (5-PW)   /   Ping Eye2 (3-S)

WEDGES: Callaway MackDaddy2 52*/56*

PUTTER: Ping Zing2 /  Anser4  /  Bobby Grace LoPro   / Bobby Grace Fat Lady Swings

BALLS:   :srixon-small:  Z-Star    :vice:  Pro +

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1 hour ago, ctg44 said:


 

 


That last section is my key point, which is to reset my brain, take a clean practice swing for the lie in which I have found myself, and attack the pin if possible after a bad shot. If attacking me pin isn't possible, I try to be creative to put myself in the best position on thst next shot to be able to attack the pin to get the lowest score possible. Playing 9 hole practice rounds after work on foot has let me do this better than ever before, because if I have the course to myself as I often do, I can drop 5 balls in the rough under a tree and try a variety of shot types. If the only golf one plays is Saturday morning golf with the guys, approaching par (and improvements past it) are going to be very difficult. That was really a problem for me in the past until we joined a private club that is saving us money over what we'd be spending to play as much golf as.my wife, son, and I play each month and giving me a lot of opportunities for quick practice rounds and range sessions. Even what we were spending before joining was almost the same as we are now, and neither my wife nor I were playing anywhere near this much golf.

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WOW ...... the beauty of "course to yourself"  dropping balls and working on thing on course!   Best times I have ever had in golf!!!

Congrats on getting into the club and having more opportunities to play this silly/great game!

 

 

WITB

Drivers: Cobra F9 w/Atmos

HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

IRONS: Bridgestone Tour Stage TS-202 (5-PW)  /  Yamaha Inpres XV Forged (5-PW)   /   Ping Eye2 (3-S)

WEDGES: Callaway MackDaddy2 52*/56*

PUTTER: Ping Zing2 /  Anser4  /  Bobby Grace LoPro   / Bobby Grace Fat Lady Swings

BALLS:   :srixon-small:  Z-Star    :vice:  Pro +

:ping-small:        :callaway-logo-1:   :cobra-small:   :1332069271_TommyArmour:      :bobby-grace-1:   :adams-small:      :cleveland-small: 

 

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23 minutes ago, Badams69 said:

Fair.  Keep in mind, discussing how to deal with the point I put forth in the thread, is not identical to the point put forth. One is recognizing the other is coping.   I still haven't heard anything denying how PAR is perceived in our game, and how it permeates perception.  Heard far more to say it is deeper than I thought and I already thought it was ocean deep.

I still don't understand how you separate out strategy.  If you simply say play a hole in the way that you can achieve the lowest score that gets rid of the notion of PAR, that is 100% a strategy.  You state that it is a mental hurdle that influences how people play.   This is the mental side of golf.   

I don't disagree that ignoring the PAR number for a hole and minimizing risk can help a player score better.   Is that the only point you are trying to make?  If not,  give us a one sentence summary.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe

Backup Putters:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W, :taylormade-small:TM-180

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I think a simple summary of your overall point is that you don't care what PAR is or that it is used but that players are negatively influenced by that number.   

Players chose shots that may result in a higher score because of the influence this number.   Players feel more pressure over a 3 foot BIRDIE putt than a 3 foot PAR or BOGEY putt.  

I 100% agree with your point.  Looking at it differently, if we were able to ignore par,  your competition still has that same influence.   Your competitor has a close putt for a 3 and you have a longer putt for 3;  it creates pressure and potentially bad decision making.  

I wouldn't argue anything against your points .....

I would say one is arbitrary looming presence in the game and the other is the nature of the beast called competition.  

Would that be a decent distinction?   

Golf on a certain level is much more about your strokes vs theirs ..... than how either of your strokes relate to par.     And the mental health issue is much more isolated, in my observation to the par on said hole than to overall par for the course.  

WITB

Drivers: Cobra F9 w/Atmos

HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

IRONS: Bridgestone Tour Stage TS-202 (5-PW)  /  Yamaha Inpres XV Forged (5-PW)   /   Ping Eye2 (3-S)

WEDGES: Callaway MackDaddy2 52*/56*

PUTTER: Ping Zing2 /  Anser4  /  Bobby Grace LoPro   / Bobby Grace Fat Lady Swings

BALLS:   :srixon-small:  Z-Star    :vice:  Pro +

:ping-small:        :callaway-logo-1:   :cobra-small:   :1332069271_TommyArmour:      :bobby-grace-1:   :adams-small:      :cleveland-small: 

 

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5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I still don't understand how you separate out strategy.  If you simply say play a hole in the way that you can achieve the lowest score that gets rid of the notion of PAR, that is 100% a strategy.  You state that it is a mental hurdle that influences how people play.   This is the mental side of golf.   

I don't disagree that ignoring the PAR number for a hole and minimizing risk can help a player score better.   Is that the only point you are trying to make?  If not,  give us a one sentence summary.  

Ok ....... I'm saying golf doesn't need it and it's presence isn't helpful.    

 

So we are left dealing with something when we are up to our elbows in alligators already trying to fight this game.  Obstacles to good golf come at you from all sides.  This one, simply isn't one I think may be as necessary as we all have accepted it is.  As Bruce Hornsby said, 'That's just the way it is, it is, it is"    "but, don't you believe it!"    

I simply DON'T believe it.   

Total par..... fine.   Hole par.... hogwash made up nonsense and highly arbitrary!!!

WITB

Drivers: Cobra F9 w/Atmos

HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

IRONS: Bridgestone Tour Stage TS-202 (5-PW)  /  Yamaha Inpres XV Forged (5-PW)   /   Ping Eye2 (3-S)

WEDGES: Callaway MackDaddy2 52*/56*

PUTTER: Ping Zing2 /  Anser4  /  Bobby Grace LoPro   / Bobby Grace Fat Lady Swings

BALLS:   :srixon-small:  Z-Star    :vice:  Pro +

:ping-small:        :callaway-logo-1:   :cobra-small:   :1332069271_TommyArmour:      :bobby-grace-1:   :adams-small:      :cleveland-small: 

 

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28 minutes ago, Badams69 said:

 

Total par..... fine.   Hole par.... hogwash made up nonsense and highly arbitrary!!!

If we were to make a Drew Carey quote from Whose line is it anyway:  the show where everything's made up and the points don't matter. That's right, the points are just like Par on a golf hole. They just don't matter.  🤣

I guess as I have evolved in my golf journey I don't worry to much about a holes par; maybe call it golf intelligence. A holes par doesn't influence me anymore.    

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe

Backup Putters:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W, :taylormade-small:TM-180

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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1 minute ago, cnosil said:

If we were to make a Drew Carey quote from Whose line is it anyway:  the show where everything's made up and the points don't matter. That's right, the points are just like Par on a golf hole. They just don't matter.  🤣

I guess as I have evolved in my golf journey I don't worry to much about a holes par; maybe call it golf intelligence. A holes par doesn't influence me anymore.    

Good one!  Liked that show.

Cool.  You have reached a level of golfing enlightenment! Which is not nothing, it's harder than most endeavors.

 

WITB

Drivers: Cobra F9 w/Atmos

HOOK STICKS(hybrids): Adams Pro 20*/23*  hook sticks!🤓

IRONS: Bridgestone Tour Stage TS-202 (5-PW)  /  Yamaha Inpres XV Forged (5-PW)   /   Ping Eye2 (3-S)

WEDGES: Callaway MackDaddy2 52*/56*

PUTTER: Ping Zing2 /  Anser4  /  Bobby Grace LoPro   / Bobby Grace Fat Lady Swings

BALLS:   :srixon-small:  Z-Star    :vice:  Pro +

:ping-small:        :callaway-logo-1:   :cobra-small:   :1332069271_TommyArmour:      :bobby-grace-1:   :adams-small:      :cleveland-small: 

 

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