What would you do?

[cheymike]

LOL.. if they are 1-4 handicap, I think the old saying applies. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

[RookieBlue7]

Good discussion guys.......

 

That means there is a very healthy appetite for golf in this Forum....

 

As for me, I grew up playing PowerBilts, given to me by my Grandfather. I used them for 20 years, then passd them down to my nephew. When i saw they were going to have a booth at the 2010 Golf Show in orlando, i decided to visit and see what they have to offer.

 

I hit both the 2nd Gen AFO driver and the AFO hollow N7 irons. Both felt very good to me. I am pretty picky as I have a steel plate, 13 screws and an inch of my hip in my left wrist. How a club handles ground shock & vibration are very important. Otherwise i could not continue to play. I had been playing Callaway Fusions for several years as they seem to handle the vibrations better than others...but the new AFO irons seem to do a better job. I felt I could hit them all day long without damage to my wrist. They made me a very sweet deal, so i said okay.

 

Before I received the new clubs, my H-cap was 21....and I live in FL so I play every week year round. Since putting the PowerBilts into play (April 2010), my H-cap has dropped to 13.6. I know some of it is not just the clubs, but they sure don't hinder it either. I have been able to hit one or two clubs shorter on my approach due to the added distance from the Driver (Avg 205 - 250 yds). My Cobra L5V only got me 195-205 yds. Using shorter irons on my approach gained me better accuracy and a better chance to score.

 

You can cite physics and chemistry until your blue in the face, but I am here to say that it is not just malarky......the trampoline effect off the thinner driver face has provided more distance as I only have an 87 mph swing speed. If you took the time to watch the infomercial (which i had not watched until this past month), you will see how they developed a resin to seal the inside of the clubhead, then injected the clubhead with Nitrogen, to be used as a constant pressure to help support the thinner club face. This is not bull#*&@. It is sound chemistry and physics. As for the legality, all of their Nitrogen filled clubs have been rated as 100% USGA approved.

 

Powerbilt's customer Service is exemplary. They processed my broken clubs with no hassles whatsoever......and they said if I break one more, they will replace the entire set. That's taking care of business in my book.

 

BTW, I played two rounds this past weekend after receiving my replacement 6 iron....no more broken clubs to report.

 

Thanks PowerBilt!

The driver face is not thinner. The thinnest they offer is 2.6 mm, right around the industry standard, nitrogen or not. As for your "trampoline effect" it's called COR, and there are limits in place set by the USGA. Their "trampoline" effect is no more than any other manufacturer's because they are a conforming club.

 

Funny fact though. You mention your driver has an Apollo shaft in it. That is not a stock option from Powerbilt. Fujikura makes their stock shafts. This tells me you went through a fitting and got a shaft that fit your swing into the clubhead. The clubhead is of very little consequence in this case. Dissect any clubhead you want and you'll find their claims of face bracing holds little merit. Most have very little face bracing at all, mostly slightly thicker in the contact area and an x pattern for stability. You'll also find that average face thickness is around 2.6 mm, the same as their driver.

 

I don't care about their infomercial, I'm talking about real world results. Infomercials are designed to sell clubs, not prove anything. They want it to appear as sexy as possible to induce you to impulse buy. There's a guy on another site I'm on that was in the infomercial. He said that they told him it was for marketing purposes. When the company tells the people in the commercial that, that's all I need to hear about it.

 

The fact remains, there is no empirical data, from testing or anywhere else that proves that this club is longer. I've hit it, it was shorter than my current driver and the other 4 prior to it. All were different models designed right around the COR limit and fitted. I hit their fitted version, wasn't any longer, but was shorter.

 

The fastest way to find distance these days? The shaft. Find the one that fits right and extend the length over standard. The industry standard used to be 44.5 in graphite, now it's 45+. Why? Longer shaft=more distance. Their length? 45.5"

 

Again, I'll ask. If this is superior, why are there none in the bag of Pros, top flight amateurs, or since it's longer than anything else, Longdrive competitors? Adams has won the last few ReMax Championships, before that, Geek Golf was the big name. Their breakthru technolgy? Aerodynamic engineering to create a more stable head, not putting nitrogen inside the clubhead that dissipates soon thereafter it's put in.

 

I promise there are better designs out there but a proper fitting will yield the same results.

[Justin66]

I'd contact them and talk to them about the problem. Tell them this is the second club and that you aren't happy that this seems to be a frequent problem. Maybe they will replace all your shafts at once instead of one at a time as they break. I'd give them the chance before spending the $$ to have it done by someone else.

 

Sometimes, an excessive amount of epoxy can cause a shear point with graphite shafts, if it gets inside the shaft- right in the area you're talking about. Tip weights that are longer than the hosel can do the same thing. If these irons are hollow and filled with N2, it's possible that the headweights are lighter than standard. Coupled with a graphite shaft, the swing wieght could be in the mid C level (C-4 to C-8; D-2 is "standard"). This would mean weight would have to be put in the hosel (because too much lead tape on the back of the head, where it should be, could be construed as unsightly); if there's too much, the shaft runs the risk of breakage. This is pure speculation on my part, but I think this is fascinating... now I'm curious to see how it really is.

 

I'm betting Powerbilt will be cool about fixing it. If there's been two broken from the same set, it might start bordering on a "lemon law" thing (though to be honest, I'm no lawyer). PB also has a reputation to uphold- that alone would probably elicit a fix.

[fozcycle]

The driver face is not thinner. The thinnest they offer is 2.6 mm, right around the industry standard, nitrogen or not. As for your "trampoline effect" it's called COR, and there are limits in place set by the USGA. Their "trampoline" effect is no more than any other manufacturer's because they are a conforming club.

 

Funny fact though. You mention your driver has an Apollo shaft in it. That is not a stock option from Powerbilt. Fujikura makes their stock shafts. This tells me you went through a fitting and got a shaft that fit your swing into the clubhead. The clubhead is of very little consequence in this case. Dissect any clubhead you want and you'll find their claims of face bracing holds little merit. Most have very little face bracing at all, mostly slightly thicker in the contact area and an x pattern for stability. You'll also find that average face thickness is around 2.6 mm, the same as their driver.

 

I don't care about their infomercial, I'm talking about real world results. Infomercials are designed to sell clubs, not prove anything. They want it to appear as sexy as possible to induce you to impulse buy. There's a guy on another site I'm on that was in the infomercial. He said that they told him it was for marketing purposes. When the company tells the people in the commercial that, that's all I need to hear about it.

 

The fact remains, there is no empirical data, from testing or anywhere else that proves that this club is longer. I've hit it, it was shorter than my current driver and the other 4 prior to it. All were different models designed right around the COR limit and fitted. I hit their fitted version, wasn't any longer, but was shorter.

 

The fastest way to find distance these days? The shaft. Find the one that fits right and extend the length over standard. The industry standard used to be 44.5 in graphite, now it's 45+. Why? Longer shaft=more distance. Their length? 45.5"

 

Again, I'll ask. If this is superior, why are there none in the bag of Pros, top flight amateurs, or since it's longer than anything else, Longdrive competitors? Adams has won the last few ReMax Championships, before that, Geek Golf was the big name. Their breakthru technolgy? Aerodynamic engineering to create a more stable head, not putting nitrogen inside the clubhead that dissipates soon thereafter it's put in.

 

I promise there are better designs out there but a proper fitting will yield the same results.

 

Thanks for your comments Rookieblue7, but the other clubfaces are not 2.6 mm.....as most of them have reinforcing trapezoids and circles to support the clubface...which PowerBilt does no have.....their clubface is designed to provide a better trampoline effect for players with less than 110 mph swing speeds.

 

As for the shaft, my driver has the stock Fujikura shaft.....my PowerBilt nitrogen filled irons have an Apollo shaft designed for PowerBilt....that is the shaft that has been breaking at the hosel.....my shaft is stock 45.5 inches I believe.

[Justin66]

There's all this discussion about nitrogen, face walls, this, that and the other. This argument isn't new...

 

When woods were actually made of wood, there was a debate as to which face insert (aluminum, epoxy, ABS, Phenolic, etc.) was the best. This isn't any different, fundamentally. Well, inserts that were made of glass should be thrown out because, you know... glass isn't that durable. But let's face it- if a face insert was "the best", why didn't everyone play it?

 

And everyone's right- there is a COR limit; it can be higher than .83, but only slightly, due to manufacturing tolerences. Same goes for every other parameter- it's called "human error". Every type of manufacturing has them.

 

The issue seems to be the N2 chamber. But is this any different than Nike's "Power Channel"? If that technology is so awesome, how come the FWs and hybrids don't have it exactly the same way as the driver? I'm sure Nike will tell you "it's based off what the club is designed to do" or something like that. What about drivers that have crowns made of magnesium? Is that any better than a thin-walled titanium or graphite crown?

 

EVERY major OEM is more about marketing than it is anything else. No matter what they make or how they make it, there's always a point of diminishing returns. Got more weight to put rearward in the sole? Good luck- too much and the effective loft of the club is increased... if it's a 10* driver, it could be a 11-12* at impact; this means shorter drives. Same goes for that "power channel"- it can't go over the COR limit, either.

 

From a not-to-technical point of view, but to prove the "marketing" comment, look at Taylormade. The original r9 was 430cc and had MWT and FCT. The r9 460 had FCT but no MWT. The r9 SuperTri was 460 AND had MWT/FCT. Did they have some revelation in the year from the original 49 to the SuperTri that said "Why don't we put MWT AND FCT in a 460cc head? That's Brilliant! Why didn't we think of this before?" They didn't because of marketing hype. The first was "too small" though we could all game a properly fitted 400+ cc driver. The second phase had the "right" head size, but no MWT. By the time the SuperTri came out, it was everything everyone wanted, all in one package. Rejoice, Hallelujah. They KNEW they could do it originally, but they got people to buy into the hype. Whether this is right or wrong is up to the individual to decide... but the strategy worked.

 

Powerbilt is doing the same thing. Whether it's right or wrong isn't really important. For the same reasons people only play a Callaway, Titleist, or whatever, people will pick up a Powerbilt. To put what everyone's said in a different manner: "if it works, what's the problem"?

[fozcycle]

Well, the third club (out of 7) broke on Saturday.....my PW broke after a 20 yard pitch on a par 3....as I was laying the club on the green, I felt and heard a cracking sound. Before the shaft was out of my hand, it had snapped and separated from the clubhead. This is the exact same break as the first two (9 & 6 irons).

 

The original shafts say "UL 65 Powerized"......they are made for Powerbilt by Apollo

 

 

I found this concerning Apollo Graphite shafts....

 

Apollo shafts have had a long and distinguished history in the golf industry. The company was started in the Midlands of England, the main site of the industrial revolution. In the mid 1890's as one of the founding five members of the TI Group (Tube Investments), the company was then known as Accles & Pollock. The company was referred to as a “tube manipulator”, which produced all types of steel tubing.

 

In 1913, Accles & Pollock received a patent for the first tubular steel golf shaft. After the steel golf shaft was finally legalized by the R & A, golf's governing body in 1927, it rapidly replaced the wood shafts that had been used since golf began in Scotland.

 

Accles & Pollock soon worked with an American company, named American Fork and Hoe, which eventually

became the present day True Temper. As a licensee of the American company for nearly forty years Accles

& Pollack produced steel shafts under the True Temper name for the European and Japanese golf markets.

 

The agreement was dissolved in 1977, and Accles & Pollock began selling directly into the North American markets of USA and Canada, under their own brand name and shaft models.

 

In 1986 the company was split to focus more on the golf side of the business, and took on the name Apollo Golf, which was the name of the shaft models. In 1988, Apollo golf was the first steel shaft manufacturer in the world to also offer its own branded graphite shaft models.

 

The present day Apollo Golf Company is as dedicated to shaft quality, performance, and customer service as the original company. We will continue to offer a variety of shaft models in both steel and graphite, backed by engineering and quality assurance. We look forward to servicing your shaft requirements and helping your company be successful.

 

Some of the more popular Apollo shafts are the Apollo Shadow, Apollo Hump (which has been played by Vjay Singh, Jim Furyk and many other PGA tour pros), Apollo Acculite, Apollo Masterflex, Apollo Balistik, Apollo Shadow UL, and many more!

 

So I guess the shaft is pretty legit...I got an AW, SW & 3 Hybrid after I bought the irons...and have had no problems with them....only 3 of the initial 7 irons with the Hollow nitrogen filled clubheads have broken.

 

My guess is the PowerBilt graphite shaft is the same as Apollo Shadow UL Graphite Iron Shafts....here is a brief description for the web..."The Apollo Shadow UL is one of our favorite shafts – because it's hard to get a solid ultra-light graphite shaft at a reasonable price like the Shadow UL most definitely is. Designed for the mid-handicapper, this light shaft will allow a quicker swingspeed, and the mid torque provides a smooth feel and excellent kick through the zone."

 

I honestly believe that the problem was in the assembly of the shaft to the clubhead as all three have broken the same way in the same place, just inside the Hosel. I am hoping that with the promised complete replacement set that the shaft breakage will not be a factor.

 

I'll find out something later today.

[Justin66]

 

I honestly believe that the problem was in the assembly of the shaft to the clubhead as all three have broken the same way in the same place, just inside the Hosel. I am hoping that with the promised complete replacement set that the shaft breakage will not be a factor.

 

I'll find out something later today.

 

I believe so. Did you look to see if there was anything inside the shaft (the part stuck inside the hosel)? If you could see epoxy or a tip pin (even a piece of dowel rod) that could could be the culprit.

 

Just a suggestion, but why not stick with steel? They make a 75g steel shaft now: Apollo's Acculite and True Temper's GS75. Not trying to tell you what to do, but just throwing it out there.

[RookieBlue7]

It still sounds like improper prep work was done on your set. Did they come out of a sweatshop or something? I mean seriously, I could understand one in a set breaking due to improper prepping, but they don't even make them a set at a time. They do all one iron at a time (say Builder X gets 4 irons that day, that's all he's building). For them to put together say 100 clubs a day, and 1 breaks. And there are 8 irons in a set, that's 800 clubs, and 8 of 800 have defects in assembly. Then I don't even want to figure out how many combinations are possible of those 800 clubs. Sounds like you are either really lucky and hit every defect club in the batches, or that there are some major QC issues there or their builders aren't properly trained. Regardless, I'd be furious if I were you and ask them to overnight me a new set because of all of the trouble you're having. 1 breaking, that's kind of acceptable, but 3 of 8, I'd be pissed. Glad they've taken care of you so far, but I'd seriously consider asking for a brand new set and for them to make sure that they're properly prepped and installed. Wow, I don't know how mad I'd even be if I were you at this point. I'm glad you like the clubs, and are evidently more patient with them than I'd be, cause I'd be on the phone saying "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do".

[Tyk]

If I were you, I'd provide them a link to this thread, and a link to MGS Review of thier driver, and let them decide how they'd like to to be represented.

 

As far as I'm concerned, your story has steered me clear of Powerbuilt barring some miraculous customer service that they have not shown to this point.

 

Its not just about replacing the broken irons. The should do that as a matter of course. Its about the fact that they are breaking to begin with! What if you were in an important match, or a tournament, or had some serious coin on the line? Your club breaking on hole 2 is last thing you need. Especially THREE TIMES!! They're golf clubs, thier only purpose is to hit golf balls. If they can't do that without breaking, then they are useless.

[fozcycle]

My replacement irons came in last night.........I'll get them tonight.

 

That was pretty fast.....one week after calling and they are delivered cross country.

 

Thanks Powerbilt!

[cheymike]

A complete replacement set, in a week... not bad customer service at all! I'm impressed.

[Tyk]

I hope you have much better luck with this set!

[fozcycle]

I opened the box last night and found, 7 brand new PowerBilt Air Force One Air Foil hollow nitrogen irons with Regular graphite shafts and Golf Pride Midsize grips (4 thru PW).

 

I know that I had put GP Midsize Tour Wrap 2G grips on and noted that Powerbilt put GP Midsize Tour Velvet grips. I'm okay with that as the Tour Velvet actually has more dampness control than the Tour Wrap 2G, but not as much shock absortion & tackiness.

 

So I wrapped up the old irons, including the broken PW and they are now in a box waiting for FedEx return....at no expense to me.

 

Through all of this adventure, I can say that PowerBilt's distributor agents in Thousand Palms, California have been Outstanding!

 

Thanks Ryan, Brian & Cameron!

 

Thanks PowerBilt!

[fozcycle]

Five rounds in the bank for the replacement PowerBilt irons and they are playing very well....93,92, 93, 92, & 90. Approach shots to the green are pushing a little right....guess I'm not getting my left hand and the clubface square at impact....will be working on that as my left wrist has a metal plate and 13 screws holding it together....I know I can get it square.

 

Ordered a 4 hybrid and 5 wood from PowerBilt....both are nitrogen charged...the 4 hybrid yields 170-175 yds while the 5 wood is a much higher flight to 170 - 180 yds....great feel at impact.

 

Thanks PowerBilt.

[Justin66]

Approach shots to the green are pushing a little right....guess I'm not getting my left hand and the clubface square at impact....will be working on that as my left wrist has a metal plate and 13 screws holding it together....I know I can get it square.

 

 

 

Are you sure it's not a lie angle issue? Having an incorrect lie can cause pushes (too flat) or pulls (too upright). There's a quick little test you can do to find out who's really the culprit... all you need is a flat surface, your 6 or 7 iron and some 3/4" masking tape.

 

Tear off a strip of tape and place it on the sole. Mark the center of the tape (between the grooves). If you have any plywood lying around, you could use that, but if you don't, hopefully you can find something similar (even a clipboard with the clip removed would work). Set up with a ball (important!) and make a swing. There should be a little tear in the tape. Find the center of the tear and measure how far away from the center it is. For every 1/4" towards the toe, the lie is 1* too flat (based on what you said, I believe this might be the perpetrator). For every 1/4" towards the heel, it's 1* too upright.

 

Some people have a hard time with this, but it'll be OK- the clubs are steel, and steel will always beat wood.

 

You may find you're dead-center on the sole. The good news is, the lie angles are perfect for you. The bad news is, you are the culprit. Regardless of who's to blame (don't want to use that term, but can't think of anything better) you'll at least know what's going on and be able to attack the issue.

[cheymike]

That reminds me... I have got to check the lie on my irons, as I'm pulling them all left, consistently. Thanks for the reminder Justin.

[Justin66]

That reminds me... I have got to check the lie on my irons, as I'm pulling them all left, consistently. Thanks for the reminder Justin.

 

LOL- No problem. At least I'm finally making myself useful here.

[fozcycle]

A complete replacement set, in a week... not bad customer service at all! I'm impressed.

Not only that, but they changed out the grips to a midsize as i had changed the original set.....they gave me Golf Pride Velvet Tour....nice...

[fozcycle]

Are you sure it's not a lie angle issue? Having an incorrect lie can cause pushes (too flat) or pulls (too upright). There's a quick little test you can do to find out who's really the culprit... all you need is a flat surface, your 6 or 7 iron and some 3/4" masking tape.

 

Tear off a strip of tape and place it on the sole. Mark the center of the tape (between the grooves). If you have any plywood lying around, you could use that, but if you don't, hopefully you can find something similar (even a clipboard with the clip removed would work). Set up with a ball (important!) and make a swing. There should be a little tear in the tape. Find the center of the tear and measure how far away from the center it is. For every 1/4" towards the toe, the lie is 1* too flat (based on what you said, I believe this might be the perpetrator). For every 1/4" towards the heel, it's 1* too upright.

 

Some people have a hard time with this, but it'll be OK- the clubs are steel, and steel will always beat wood.

 

You may find you're dead-center on the sole. The good news is, the lie angles are perfect for you. The bad news is, you are the culprit. Regardless of who's to blame (don't want to use that term, but can't think of anything better) you'll at least know what's going on and be able to attack the issue.

 

 

Thanks Justin66......I'll try that....I have been analyzing my divots and they appear to be about 2" flat (not deeper on either toe or heel).

[Justin66]

Thanks Justin66......I'll try that....I have been analyzing my divots and they appear to be about 2" flat (not deeper on either toe or heel).

 

It's nothing. You can just call me Justin, or Jack@ss... seems to work for my friends !