Chase for + Cap

[Shankster]

4 days ago I was at the range, hitting beautiful 3-5 yard draws for the majority bucket.  Also worked on trajectory and also working a fade, but ended hitting those right on the screws draws.  Then… 

I went to practice the short game a little because that area of my game absolutely sucks right now, for about 20-30 minutes.

Decided to go back and hit some more full shots.  Didn’t change a thing, but those 3-5 yard draws turned into 5-10 yard fades.  Controllable good fades. Not the swiper no swiping fades.  
 

Fast forward to this morning.  Went to the range, the 5-10 yard fade is still there, my short game still sucks and even with a closed club face like snap hook closed I can’t get the ball to turn over.

I will admit, I am out of practice, but this is infuriating.  In hindsight, I should have skipped the short game work and let that 3-5 yard draw swing sink in…. because now I have to neutralize this whatever I’m doing for this fade thing before I can get back to real work.

Is it time to just play my one way miss once I get sorted out and play only draws?  
 

My goal in the next 3 years is to get into a + handicap.  Not for anything other than improving my game, setting a goal that is probably just out reach.  Right now I am close to being able to keep it under 78 regularly.  Just have to rid myself of dumb mistakes, and sharpen the short game.

Im blaming it on the lack of coffee.  
 

I will be posting my progress in here.  Stay tuned.

[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Is it time to just play my one way miss once I get sorted out and play only draws?  

My goal in the next 3 years is to get into a + handicap.  Not for anything other than improving my game, setting a goal that is probably just out reach.  Right now I am close to being able to keep it under 78 regularly.  Just have to rid myself of dumb mistakes, and sharpen the short game.

 

My opinion based on what I have learned.  From a course management perspective, play a single shot shape.  With irons you can move away from that,  but why would you need to?   

You are probably a little better than me but we have close to the same goal;  I'd like to get to a 0.  What aspect of your game is keeping you from getting to a 0?   You indicate short game is where you need to focus; what is the problem?  But I also think you need to have a solid approach game where you get the ball on or around the green.     The big things I am working on are establishing a stock shot....I have leveraged my most wanted testing time to hit better iron shots and I have seen improvement there.    I have been working on short game for a few years since it was a big weakness and where I lost a lot of strokes.   Started studying Dan Grieve and his 3 release approach.  I bought his book and have been watching all his YouTube videos.   Based on strokes gained I have gone from losing 2+ strokes to losing .5 strokes to a 0 handicap in my short game.   Been working on basic fundamentals with my putting and trying to get better at distance control. 

[Shankster]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

My opinion based on what I have learned.  From a course management perspective, play a single shot shape.  With irons you can move away from that,  but why would you need to?   

You are probably a little better than me but we have close to the same goal;  I'd like to get to a 0.  What aspect of your game is keeping you from getting to a 0?   You indicate short game is where you need to focus; what is the problem?  But I also think you need to have a solid approach game where you get the ball on or around the green.     The big things I am working on are establishing a stock shot....I have leveraged my most wanted testing time to hit better iron shots and I have seen improvement there.    I have been working on short game for a few years since it was a big weakness and where I lost a lot of strokes.   Started studying Dan Grieve and his 3 release approach.  I bought his book and have been watching all his YouTube videos.   Based on strokes gained I have gone from losing 2+ strokes to losing .5 strokes to a 0 handicap in my short game.   Been working on basic fundamentals with my putting and trying to get better at distance control. 

I have been using Dan’s 3 releases for a while around the green, even before I started following him I was pretty much doing his techniques.  Granted, I’ve basically been away from golf for 2.5 years… major set back.

My issue I’m currently having is the partial shots.  Chipping and 0-40 yards is not an issue, but with my length off the tee currently I’m setting myself up in the 50-120 yard zone a lot of the times.  Something that used to be my best strength is now my biggest weakness, I’d have 3 or 4 ways to get there at those distances.  For whatever reason I am either lunging at them, or getting too flippy and strike consistency is off the charts terrible.  Sometimes they even go sideways . Yes, an Alan.  
 

I think my issue is, Dan’s techniques allow for the early release, I use 2 most of the time because they stop on a dims.  This is not good for my trouble zone, my full swing is similar to Stricker, I use little to no purposeful wrist hinge, but I do in the short game so it bleeds in and inconsistencies show up.  Tried the dead hand pitching method and that doesn’t really work for me either.  
 

So. I am kind of stuck in what should be the bread and butter zone.

[Shankster]

I think my first step is going to be adding a wedge. Without the 2 hybrid which I really don’t need, just wanted a little extra forgiveness at the top of the bag, I have an open spot.  I am not going higher than a 56°, I can manipulate it enough that I feel comfortable without a lob wedge with a 54°.  But that leaves me with a weird gap.  Maybe add a 52°, and replace the 54° with a 56°.  This seems like the most logical thing to do, along with dropping the 3 iron.
 

As I mentioned in another thread, I present the club back to the ball at nearly the designed loft, so I don’t really have a need for a higher lofted wedge.
 

Bag is currently:

1. Driver 9°

2. (2 Hybrid) 14° waiting for it to show up.

3. 2 iron 17°

4. 3 iron 19°

5. 4 iron 22°

6. 5 iron 25°

7. 6 iron 28°

8. 7 iron 32°

9. 8 iron 36°

10. 9 iron 40°

11. PW 44°

12. 48° 

13. 54°

14. Putter

[cnosil]

15 hours ago, Shankster said:

I have been using Dan’s 3 releases for a while around the green, even before I started following him I was pretty much doing his techniques.  Granted, I’ve basically been away from golf for 2.5 years… major set back.

My issue I’m currently having is the partial shots.  Chipping and 0-40 yards is not an issue, but with my length off the tee currently I’m setting myself up in the 50-120 yard zone a lot of the times.  Something that used to be my best strength is now my biggest weakness, I’d have 3 or 4 ways to get there at those distances.  For whatever reason I am either lunging at them, or getting too flippy and strike consistency is off the charts terrible.  Sometimes they even go sideways . Yes, an Alan.  

Are you using his approach for pitching as well?  He does cover how to play the 30-90ish yard distances.  

[Shankster]

Yeah, I do.  I call anything inside 120 short game.  So, it depends on what shot I’m going to hit but for the most part I use this set up.  Does the book have his approach to uh, approach shots or is it a video that I haven’t found yet?  I don’t have his book.  
 

Ideally I would like to find a short game and approach technique that doesn’t stray too far from my long game, I know Dan says they are two different games and should be two different styles, but I feel like this is where I disagree with him.

[cnosil]

48 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Yeah, I do.  I call anything inside 120 short game.  So, it depends on what shot I’m going to hit but for the most part I use this set up.  Does the book have his approach to uh, approach shots or is it a video that I haven’t found yet?  I don’t have his book.  
 

Ideally I would like to find a short game and approach technique that doesn’t stray too far from my long game, I know Dan says they are two different games and should be two different styles, but I feel like this is where I disagree with him.

It is discussed in his book and it can be found in some of his videos.   You can do a search for his address positions (A-1, A-2 and A-3) 

 

I think it is discussed in here some:

 

It is talked about here as well:

 

And in this video he talks a little more about how the release is different in chips and pitches

 

 

[Shankster]

Legitimate question, I see our fellow spy asking how to find the right coach.

Ive been toying with the idea of getting some lessons now that I have time.

Do I keep going down the Bubba route (I mean the dude got paid) or do I see what need tweaking?  It could be the game changer for real.  I don’t want anything to do with a complete swing restoration.

[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Do I keep going down the Bubba route (I mean the dude got paid) or do I see what need tweaking?  It could be the game changer for real.  I don’t want anything to do with a complete swing restoration.

I personally have found benefits from lessons.  Others have continued on their own to figure out how to improve.   Part of the question would be how much do you want to dedicate to learning it on your own versus getting some help.   What you want to do is part of the discussion you have with the instructor when you try and identify a plan to accomplish your goal of getting to scratch.  

[Shankster]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I personally have found benefits from lessons.  Others have continued on their own to figure out how to improve.   Part of the question would be how much do you want to dedicate to learning it on your own versus getting some help.   What you want to do is part of the discussion you have with the instructor when you try and identify a plan to accomplish your goal of getting to scratch.  

Yeah, I am not as in tune with my swing as I used to be.  I could sort out my issues pretty well in a range session, now I’m on 3 and it’s still not working.  Overheard a conversation while I was practicing putting today between the pro and one of their students.  Seems like a guy I could get a long with, might be time for a check up.

 

Right now all need help with (that I know of) is sorting out what I’m assuming is a path issue, and my wicked bad wedge game.  Putting is on point.  Driver is suffering due to likely path issue as well, or maybe not.  So, I think I just talked myself into it.

[Shankster]

I could get myself around the course pretty well right now, I just don’t like the way the ball is moving.

[Shankster]

I am fairly certain I figured out what I ‘wasn’t’ doing.  After I ditched the single plane set up, I had added some Rahm / DJ like left wrist bow.  I was not doing that, going straighter now, just have to undo the correction I was trying to make with everything else. 

Shoulder is fine.  

I was given the green light from the Boss to take some lessons.  I may just have the pro take a look and see if we can improve what I’m doing.  Again, not really interested in a full rebuild.  If they see something minor I can add without too much issue that would be ideal.  And see what we can come up with for partial shots that mirror my full swing set up.  Adding Dans release system I believe is what causes me to forget about the wrist… so, I have to get creative on my own.

[Shankster]

Alright, I gave the dead hand thing a go again today with some pretty awesome results in the 80-100 yard range, and even the 15-50 range as well.  I am going to have to alter my club choices for certain shots, but it feels like a long putt, so the motion is simple and repeatable.  Should be good to go in that Danger Range for me.

[goaliedad30]

Realistically, to be scratch / plus, you need to be hitting 10-12 greens in regulation, having a "near the green" scrambling percentage over 50%, and eliminate three putts almost completely. Additionally, your "make rate" inside of 8 feet needs to be very good.

Do you know what parts of your game are costing you strokes? I think that most of the "strokes gained" studies ultimately point out that the big gap is "proximity to the hole from 125-175 yards". In that range, plus handicap players are going have a long term average of a hair less than 3 strokes. 

[Shankster]

Yeah, it is the shorter approach shots, and obviously when I’m 215+ out the green is a pretty small target, but that is rare.  I am losing around 3.5 strokes according to Arccos compared to a +1 on all approaches.  Although I don’t set the flag location, so I don’t really know how accurate that or the short game Data is.

Putting is good.  I’ll have a few 3 putts from time to time, but I usually get down in 1-2 depending on distance.  
 

Not concerned with putting.

The goal is ambitious, I know.  But the goal post is likely out of reach, so if and when I do reach it it will be one heck of a feat.  And I will continually have something to work toward.  If I wanted to drop a few decimal points, that doesn’t really move the motivation meter for me.

I have to temper these expectations for a little while since I’ve been gone from the game for so long, but I should be able to start the real work later this year.  

[Tom the Golf Nut]

Alan,

I too had a goal for scratch. All I wanted was to see a zero once. I worked at every aspect from the long game to the short game. It got to the point that I was not having fun anymore. I was putting to much pressure on myself. Pressure, tension mental focus, was taking its toll. I thought I would never get below a 5 HC.  I decided to just have fun, I didn’t continue my GHIN, didn’t post scores and just played golf. I didn’t even keep score. I knew I was playing well. But I saw the trees, birds, deer and just enjoyed the nature instead of plotting and planning as I walked to my ball. 

Then came some events that required an official handicap and my club wanted me to have one. So, two years ago I started back up. It turns out I was playing much better because I wasn’t trying to force something. 

I really don’t know what else I can do to lower mine. I’m close but at the same time I don’t let it bother me. According to GHIN a few minutes ago. Over the last 20 rounds I had one high round of 78 (Royal New Kent in VA) and a low of 63 at my home course. My average score is 69.7 but my GHIN has my cap at 0.5  The way it looks is I’d have to shoot a couple of 65’s or 66’s to get to zero. That’s just not going to happen. 

If you take one thing away from this, it is to relax and have fun. I started playing better when I took the pressure off myself.  I’m proof that your never to old to get better. 
 

@goaliedad30 is right about the stats though. Your short game has to be on all the time and no three putts. My GIR isn’t the highest but my short game makes up for it. I’m confident I’m going to get up and down. Plus my home course greens are tiny. My GIR percentage would be higher at a normal course. My driver does not get me in trouble either. 

 I wish you well on your journey. 

[Shankster]

Thanks Tom.  I am freewheeling no stress on my rounds usually.  It’s only when I start with my huge miss off the tee that I surrender the score card and work on other areas, but the driver has been point and shoot lately, so the rest of my game should be stress free.  Except I forgot how to use my short irons/wedges.  I used to have 1000% confidence I could stick the green near the hole if you had a 8-LW in my hand.  Now it’s a crap shoot.  I’ll get it sorted, taking my hands out of the wedges will help enormously.

[Shankster]

Played 9 today.  Played very well aside from some very poor club choices into the wind that cost me some strokes.  Ended up firing a 39, but it should have been a 35.  
 

Also figured out I don’t have a fade problem, I have a “The driving range sucks” problem.  I usually spend 1.5-2 hours when I am at the range, I can play 9 in roughly the same time.  I do believe I am going to skip the range and possibly play 2 balls to get different shots in from now on.  That will be more beneficial than hitting balls that don’t have any sort of risk, or reward.

As far as shots go, I play a fade off the tee with driver all of the time, I know I have brought up playing both ways off the tee before recently, but the fade is my shot off the tee, even when it goes straight I’m usually just on the left side of the fairway or first cut.  I’ve known this for years and always try to mess around with it, but I’m sticking to what is consistent from now on.

The 2 hybrid will be the draw off the tee club, it does it automatically, so it is point and shoot, love it.  
 

I actually think I may take a look at the PING S59’s for wedges, but that bounce though.  My Vokeys are great, but playing a CB/GI iron and going into a 1946 shaped blade might not be the best idea.  Or, possibly even the mizuno S model if/when it gets updated. Yes, you heard that correctly, I’m saying maybe bladed wedges are for the birds.  
 

Bottom end of the bag is still the weakest part of the game.  So a change is needed for not only shot types, but distance control too.

 

 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

1 hour ago, Shankster said:

Also figured out I don’t have a fade problem, I have a “The driving range sucks” problem.  I usually spend 1.5-2 hours when I am at the range, I can play 9 in roughly the same time.  I do believe I am going to skip the range and possibly play 2 balls to get different shots in from now on.  That will be more beneficial than hitting balls that don’t have any sort of risk, or reward.

About 10 years ago my clubs pro told me, “if you want to get better play more golf and skip the driving range” I listened.

I  always opt to play over going to the range. The balls generally suck, you have a good lie all the time, the targets don’t give you enough distance variety, and you generally don’t focus as much.

The course adds in all the things you need. Different lies, specific distance to carry traps, being in the right position for your next shot, hitting certain areas on the green, and so on. 

[Shankster]

33 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

About 10 years ago my clubs pro told me, “if you want to get better play more golf and skip the driving range” I listened.

I  always opt to play over going to the range. The balls generally suck, you have a good lie all the time, the targets don’t give you enough distance variety, and you generally don’t focus as much.

The course adds in all the things you need. Different lies, specific distance to carry traps, being in the right position for your next shot, hitting certain areas on the green, and so on. 

Yeah.  Makes sense.  That’s what I did in Maryland.  Golf was cheap and when I went to the course I was usually one of few people on it.  Here, it is a little different story.  Not as cheap, and jam packed.  Still beats the range, and plan to do that more often, play 9’s that is.

[Shapotomous]

If you play two balls, try playing a worst ball scramble.  I find I concentrate better trying to keep my misses small so I can score better.  And if you do get in a challenging spot you get to work on those recovery shots as well.

Edited Thursday at 01:36 AM by Shapotomous

[Shankster]

8 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

If you play two balls, try playing a worst ball scramble.  I find I concentrate better trying to keep my misses small so I can score better.  And if you do get in a challenging spot you get to work on those recovery shots as well.

Used to practice like this.  Definitely fun, and engaging.  Today I would have needed to go up 3 clubs on several of them.  You’d think I would have learned the first time.  Being a high ball hitter, even my “low” shot is high.  I messed around with stingers a few years ago and I decided to just play my natural shot.

[Indy_Oz]

Great topic and interesting conversation.

I'm a 6.8HCP right now (official GHIN HCP). When I was younger I hovered in the 4-5 range for a couple of years before my 20yr+ golf hiatus started. I have a similar target of getting as close to scratch as I can over the next couple of years.

Short game is my biggest weakness and the thing I keep trying to find more time to work on. I have Dan Grieve's book too and watch a lot of his youtube & IG content, and lessons other YT'ers have with him.lol. It's all practice time needed for me in reality- on course and chipping greens. I'm looking forward to courses quietening down so I can play some solo rounds and do some more on-course chipping practice. The thing I'm working on right now is quietening my hands and having less grip pressure. I know that needs to be a lot better!

Rather than Dan's pitching approach (which didn't click for me when I tried to get it all to work last year), I have worked on a wedge ladder with a kind of clock system. Hips, waist level, ribs, shoulder, full. I have distances for 50*, 56* and 60*. My plan is to check my carry numbers on the sim 2-3x per year with that system. It's worked well for 30-110yd range so far. I need to be more confident with the numbers and commit to the swing, but that'll come with time and practice.

In terms of driver shot shape, the big stick has caused me issues the past couple of years (even after lessons) but I finally feel I have a driver that suits my swing and allows me a one-way miss the vast majority of the time. I can aim down the left edge of the fairway and the ball will most often stay within the bounds of first cut on either side. That's been the case the few rounds I've gamed it for. Anyway, while I can play a draw, it's not sufficiently well controlled and I'd prefer a stock fade I can rely on. A few lessons really helped my full swing consistency for FW and irons and I may try to find a good local short game coach next year.

Do you use something like Arccos to track your playing stats?

This is what Arccos says my handicap has been recently:

The huge positives are changes in driver and putting 'handicap', both of which have coincided with new big and flat sticks that have really clicked for me!

Short game... well... the above speaks for itself! Ha ha.

 

Good luck on your quest!

[Shankster]

7 minutes ago, Indy_Oz said:

Do you use something like Arccos to track your playing stats

I do.  I need to figure out how to reset it.  I never set the flag location.  Just started today with setting it.  Maybe after a few rounds I will get it leveled out.  The data isn’t showing what I’m actually doing, so I don’t know what the stats are… my fault.  
 

I am in the same boat with Dan’s approach.  While I like the around the green stuff, I don’t like the releases after thinking about it.  I mean it works great, but I want it to be simpler.
 

Glad to hear someone else on the same path.  

[Indy_Oz]

Just now, Shankster said:

I do.  I need to figure out how to reset it.  I never set the flag location.  Just started today with setting it.  Maybe after a few rounds I will get it leveled out.  The data isn’t showing what I’m actually doing, so I don’t know what the stats are… my fault.  
 

I am in the same boat with Dan’s approach.  While I like the around the green stuff, I don’t like the releases after thinking about it.  I mean it works great, but I want it to be simpler.
 

Glad to hear someone else on the same path.  

When I was a kid and through my 20s, with no GPS or range finders I could eyeball distances pretty well and had great feel around the greens. I loved bunkers too, but then I practiced in them a LOT! Since returning to the game, that hasn't come back and I have needed to find a system I can rely on.

I love the idea of the 3 releases around the green and mostly stick to release 1 type swing. But yeah, once I get much beyond 20 yards from the green I'm into my ladder and not worrying about release type.

I'm not a member at a club, so play a variety of courses. That hampers confidence in some aspects of the short game- particularly bunkers, due to the wide variety in quality and condition locally.

 

With Arccos, tagging the pin (even estimating after the round if you can recall approximate distances) helps, definitely.

As an engineer, I love the stats it gives me. Probably explains why I like the ladder system too!

[Shankster]

2 minutes ago, Indy_Oz said:

As an engineer, I love the stats it gives me. Probably explains why I like the ladder system too!

I hear you there.  I’m a  Technician by trade, so I’m the same way.  I used to just go off feel for everything, but I’ve lost that touch.

[cnosil]

8 hours ago, Shankster said:

I am in the same boat with Dan’s approach.  While I like the around the green stuff, I don’t like the releases after thinking about it.  I mean it works great, but I want it to be simpler.
.  

Curious what simpler means.   You’ve mentioned earlier in this thread that you want a single approach and make the short game like the long game.   Long game is complex since you have to control flight, maybe shape, adjust distances, etc.  most modern short game coaches (short game chef, Mayo, Ridyard) have similar release patterns as Grieve.    Do you make adjustments to your long game swing and why not just build you own short game system based on how you do long game?    How do you want to hit a ball 5 yards versus 30 yards versus 100 yards?  

Edited Thursday at 11:44 AM by cnosil

[cnosil]

Maybe this will resonate with you more than Grieve.  I know you said you like to deliver the shaft vertical with impact loft and club loft matching….but that is not what I see being taught. 
 

 

[Shankster]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Maybe this will resonate with you more than Grieve.  I know you said you like to deliver the shaft vertical with impact loft and club loft matching….but that is not what I see being taught. 

It’s not that I like to.  It’s just how it happens.  I’ve tried to incorporate forward shaft lean, but it never sticks.  

[Shankster]

5 hours ago, cnosil said:

Curious what simpler means.   You’ve mentioned earlier in this thread that you want a single approach and make the short game like the long game.   Long game is complex since you have to control flight, maybe shape, adjust distances, etc.  most modern short game coaches (short game chef, Mayo, Ridyard) have similar release patterns as Grieve.    Do you make adjustments to your long game swing and why not just build you own short game system based on how you do long game?    How do you want to hit a ball 5 yards versus 30 yards versus 100 yards?  

Yeah.  I know it sounds like I don’t have a clue what I am talking about.  Don’t get me wrong, I really like Dan’s approach to it.  I suppose I should say I want a standard go to shot day from 40 yards.  I do, it is usually release 2, but I want less movement in my hands.  If that makes any sense.  Simpler as in a stock shot, easy mechanics.  I know there will be times when I need a flop or a lower shot.