Driver Distance and Swing Speed

[jimfoley]

I'm a 67 year old with about 85 mph swing speed with driver. Only carry about 190 yards, don't hit it very high, but I am very straight. One fitter thought I should stay with a 55 gram REG flex the other thought I should go with a 45 gram SENIOR flex. I hit them about the same yardage on trackman but the senior flex felt a bit whippy. Stay with the senior flex and hitting it the same as always.

 

But I've been AGONIZING thinking I should have chosen the senior flex. Maybe on the course I'd hit the lighter, more flexible shaft further. So my question is "how many more yards might I possibly pick up with the senior flex?" I've been tormented thinking I might be losing a lot of yards. But perhaps the difference between the shafts would only be a few yards given my slow swing speed and I shouldn't worry about all the distance I might be losing. Do you think that's right?  (I wouldn't worry so much if the difference was only a few yards.

 

thanks so much for the help, been really anxious that I've made a major error.  

[Kenny B]

Jim, welcome to the forums!  Here's my thoughts...

Won't make much difference.  If shafts were different brands, there might not be much difference in flex; one brand's Regular could be another brand's Senior.  If they were the same brand, the Senior flex may have a slightly softer tip which would help launch the ball higher.  Did trackman show a difference in launch angle or spin rate?  You will see more carry distance if you launch the ball higher; there's an optimal launch angle number though for your swing speed.  If you hit both shafts the same carry distance, you aren't going to see much difference on course.

We are nearly the same on driver performance; I chose the 50g senior flex shaft because I'm 75.  My last driver a few years ago had a regular flex shaft with a different brand.  I was a few yards longer with the new driver, but that was likely due to the newer design driver head.  

To hit the ball further you(we) need to consistently hit the ball in the sweet spot and increase club head speed.  Both require training and practice.  If you hit the ball low, is it because you are hitting the ball low on the club face?  There is less loft lower on the face than the middle and high on the face.  What is your angle of attack (AoA)?  

I was generally a low ball hitter because I came up through the ball with a 5º+ AoA, but hit the ball low on the face.  A swing change helped that, but it's a work in progress.  By swinging more level through the ball, I launch the ball much higher and carry further.

Not sure I helped you all that much... sorry!  

[jimfoley]

Kenny

 

You helped immensely. So glad to find a real person out in the cyberworld. As for the shafts, one was oban 45 gram senior and the other oban 55 gram regular. The 45 gram is their highest launching driver and the 55 gram mig-high launch. Both are for slower swing speed and smooth tempo swings. So I think the senior did launch a few feet higher but the carry and total distance were about the same. My angle of attack was about a degree or 2 down and I started trying to swing up and I think I've experienced what you mention--I'm hitting it low on the face. I think it launches a bit higher when I swing more level---although I probably only hit it 40 feet high.

I think I'm just really close as to whether its time for the senior shaft. And most charts put me right on the borderline between senior and regular flex. In the end though the fitters thought the senior would be ever so slightly better but, as I said, when I hit it on the course it felt like I just couldn't control the face as well as with the regular. At any rate, would you agree that the difference between the 2 shafts is probably only going to be a few yards on the course? 

[GolfSpy_APH]

7 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

Kenny

 

You helped immensely. So glad to find a real person out in the cyberworld. As for the shafts, one was oban 45 gram senior and the other oban 55 gram regular. The 45 gram is their highest launching driver and the 55 gram mig-high launch. Both are for slower swing speed and smooth tempo swings. So I think the senior did launch a few feet higher but the carry and total distance were about the same. My angle of attack was about a degree or 2 down and I started trying to swing up and I think I've experienced what you mention--I'm hitting it low on the face. I think it launches a bit higher when I swing more level---although I probably only hit it 40 feet high.

I think I'm just really close as to whether its time for the senior shaft. And most charts put me right on the borderline between senior and regular flex. In the end though the fitters thought the senior would be ever so slightly better but, as I said, when I hit it on the course it felt like I just couldn't control the face as well as with the regular. At any rate, would you agree that the difference between the 2 shafts is probably only going to be a few yards on the course? 

Have to echo all that Kenny said. In all likelihood there will be very little difference between two. 

Hitting down is definitely a distance killer that I struggle with. Getting that attack angle up will not only help get the ball flight up, but also slightly lower spin which should help distance and roll out.

Sounds like you have a good driver for you and with a few swing tweaks you'll be seeing the distance gains you're hoping for!

Oh and welcome to the forum! Glad your reached out and hope you're able to get all the answers here!

[jimfoley]

thanks Jamie from Switzerland. I assume that the difference between the reg and senior flex would probably be minimal. I'm an old golfer but still play to a 5 handicap. I'm good inside a hundred yards and can put lights out but as I approach 70 my distance off the tee is really slipping. Oh well. 

And as an aside, a very good friend of mine lives in Geneva and some of my ancestors are from Glarus Switzerland. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

5 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

thanks Jamie from Switzerland. I assume that the difference between the reg and senior flex would probably be minimal. I'm an old golfer but still play to a 5 handicap. I'm good inside a hundred yards and can put lights out but as I approach 70 my distance off the tee is really slipping. Oh well. 

And as an aside, a very good friend of mine lives in Geneva and some of my ancestors are from Glarus Switzerland. 

Hopefully you'll be able to maintain your distance vs loosing too much. I'll be honest I am a fair bit younger so have time I believe till I am at the point of loosing distance. However there are many on the forum that are in the same situation or similar. Thankfully technology is helping as well! Also don't forget that golf ball can also play a part and maybe there is one that can help you there too.

Switzerland has been very kind to me and my family since moving here a few years ago. Geneva is a great city and one of the nicer big ones I've been to. Glarus is on my to go to list hopefully over the winter break!

[jimfoley]

thanks Jamie. I've only been to Switzerland once. All the best to you. 

 

Jim

[Caddie1966]

Jim

welcome.. as Kenny stated, the shaft variance across brands is confusing there isn’t much of a common standard.  It comes down to feel, strength, swing speed and angle of attack. You can increase height and perhaps carry with reduced spin by working on attack angle.  Sometimes just raising tee height works wonders.

[NM01]

Shaft flex and loading have no bearing on distance.

If that was the case you would see the results on the launch monitor.

How the weight, shaft profile, balance of the club feel to the golfer will have an impact on the way a golfer swings and that will affect what the ball does

As Kenny says if you want more distance you need to create more speed.

[jimfoley]

I think you're right. Sounds like I should obsess less about which shaft might be ever so slightly better and work on my swing, physical fitness, tee height, etc. etc. 

[jimfoley]

11 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Have to echo all that Kenny said. In all likelihood there will be very little difference between two. 

Hitting down is definitely a distance killer that I struggle with. Getting that attack angle up will not only help get the ball flight up, but also slightly lower spin which should help distance and roll out.

Sounds like you have a good driver for you and with a few swing tweaks you'll be seeing the distance gains you're hoping for!

Oh and welcome to the forum! Glad your reached out and hope you're able to get all the answers here!

 

9 hours ago, Caddie1966 said:

Jim

welcome.. as Kenny stated, the shaft variance across brands is confusing there isn’t much of a common standard.  It comes down to feel, strength, swing speed and angle of attack. You can increase height and perhaps carry with reduced spin by working on attack angle.  Sometimes just raising tee height works wonders.

 

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Shaft flex and loading have no bearing on distance.

If that was the case you would see the results on the launch monitor.

How the weight, shaft profile, balance of the club feel to the golfer will have an impact on the way a golfer swings and that will affect what the ball does

As Kenny says if you want more distance you need to create more speed.

Again, I think you guys are right. Find a way to get more clubhead speed and not worry so much about the slight difference in the shafts. I tried speed sticks but as I'm 67 swinging them hurt my back a bit. 

[NM01]

26 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

 

 

Again, I think you guys are right. Find a way to get more clubhead speed and not worry so much about the slight difference in the shafts. I tried speed sticks but as I'm 67 swinging them hurt my back a bit. 

Looks like you aka johnmess got the same feedback on wrx with the exact same thread so that should be a good indication it’s not the shaft 

[chisag]

14 hours ago, Kenny B said:

We are nearly the same on driver performance; I chose the 50g senior flex shaft because I'm 75.  My last driver a few years ago had a regular flex shaft with a different brand.  I was a few yards longer with the new driver, but that was likely due to the newer design driver head.  

 

... Every player is different and already some good replies including yours.   But I would add for some golfers the difference in flex or weight can change their approach. During my driver fittings the fitter took the club out of my hands after 2 swings. With the first swing if the shaft felt too stiff, I was more aggressive with the next swing and got out of my normal rhythm. If it felt too soft I would ease off a little. Both of these are subtle and subconscious on my part but very real. So for some, playing a shaft that is too stiff will cause them to swing harder than necessary. Getting in a good rhythm can mean straighter and longer tee shots. You will hear players describe shafts as "boardy" and "whippy" with too much kick or no kick at all, where a shaft that fits your swing should feel basically like nothing because the timing is in tune with your swing. 

[Kenny B]

9 hours ago, jimfoley said:

 

 

Again, I think you guys are right. Find a way to get more clubhead speed and not worry so much about the slight difference in the shafts. I tried speed sticks but as I'm 67 swinging them hurt my back a bit. 

I have the SuperSpeed sticks as well.  I tested them for the forum a few years ago, and I did gain some speed.  At the time I really didn't have a good place to practice, but that is changing as my inside, heated hitting bay is nearing completion.  I plan on getting back to the protocols.  

I will say that when doing any speed work, be sure to do a lot of stretching and warmup exercises first.  You have to be careful with your back.  Mine is problematic, but I can get by without surgery... so far.  Just as important as speed training is getting your body parts synced up to make an efficient swing; that's what I'm focusing on now.

[jimfoley]

9 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Looks like you aka johnmess got the same feedback on wrx with the exact same thread so that should be a good indication it’s not the shaft 

yeah, i thank all the golfer who helped. I'm just not going to sweat a few yards here or there and when I get a little older and weaker I'll grab the senior shaft. thanks for the comment. 

[jimfoley]

7 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Every player is different and already some good replies including yours.   But I would add for some golfers the difference in flex or weight can change their approach. During my driver fittings the fitter took the club out of my hands after 2 swings. With the first swing if the shaft felt too stiff, I was more aggressive with the next swing and got out of my normal rhythm. If it felt too soft I would ease off a little. Both of these are subtle and subconscious on my part but very real. So for some, playing a shaft that is too stiff will cause them to swing harder than necessary. Getting in a good rhythm can mean straighter and longer tee shots. You will hear players describe shafts as "boardy" and "whippy" with too much kick or no kick at all, where a shaft that fits your swing should feel basically like nothing because the timing is in tune with your swing. 

 

7 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Every player is different and already some good replies including yours.   But I would add for some golfers the difference in flex or weight can change their approach. During my driver fittings the fitter took the club out of my hands after 2 swings. With the first swing if the shaft felt too stiff, I was more aggressive with the next swing and got out of my normal rhythm. If it felt too soft I would ease off a little. Both of these are subtle and subconscious on my part but very real. So for some, playing a shaft that is too stiff will cause them to swing harder than necessary. Getting in a good rhythm can mean straighter and longer tee shots. You will hear players describe shafts as "boardy" and "whippy" with too much kick or no kick at all, where a shaft that fits your swing should feel basically like nothing because the timing is in tune with your swing. 

that's interesting. When I was in the simulator on trackman I slowly got used to the whippy shaft after hitting it over and over. But when I was on the course on the tee, it felt like puddy in my hands. I felt I couldn't swing it hard because I wasn't sure where it would go. So I swung it even slower. With the regular I can take my usual swing and dont' have the feeling that it will close the face to fast.  And this isn't ego. I hit a club that said little boy shaft if it helped me. 

[jimfoley]

29 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I have the SuperSpeed sticks as well.  I tested them for the forum a few years ago, and I did gain some speed.  At the time I really didn't have a good place to practice, but that is changing as my inside, heated hitting bay is nearing completion.  I plan on getting back to the protocols.  

I will say that when doing any speed work, be sure to do a lot of stretching and warmup exercises first.  You have to be careful with your back.  Mine is problematic, but I can get by without surgery... so far.  Just as important as speed training is getting your body parts synced up to make an efficient swing; that's what I'm focusing on now.

I'm in good shape. Only 5'7" and 135 lbs. But very flexible. Do you think I'd get used to the speed sticks? And do you think I could gain 5 mph swing speed with driver? And I'd be sure to stretch beforehand. 

[Kenny B]

10 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

I'm in good shape. Only 5'7" and 135 lbs. But very flexible. Do you think I'd get used to the speed sticks? And do you think I could gain 5 mph swing speed with driver? And I'd be sure to stretch beforehand. 

If you stick to the protocols, you will gain speed.  Everyone is different, but when I tested them I religiously stuck to my schedule because I didn't want to disappoint fellow forum members and make sure I give SuperSpeed Golf a quality review since they gave us the sticks.  

I am 75 years old,  6'0" and at the time I was probably 260lbs.  I went from 82mph to 92 mph in two months.  I haven't used them since I moved into my new house 3 years ago, but I will be using them in the next week or so.  It will be interesting; I don't know what my driver swing speed is currently, but I currently weigh 205lbs so that is a big change.

[jimfoley]

16 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

If you stick to the protocols, you will gain speed.  Everyone is different, but when I tested them I religiously stuck to my schedule because I didn't want to disappoint fellow forum members and make sure I give SuperSpeed Golf a quality review since they gave us the sticks.  

I am 75 years old,  6'0" and at the time I was probably 260lbs.  I went from 82mph to 92 mph in two months.  I haven't used them since I moved into my new house 3 years ago, but I will be using them in the next week or so.  It will be interesting; I don't know what my driver swing speed is currently, but I currently weigh 205lbs so that is a big change.

thanks for the info Kenny. I'll give the sticks another try. And congrats on losing the weight. You might have lost some muscle mass but its so good for your health. 

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, jimfoley said:

thanks for the info Kenny. I'll give the sticks another try. And congrats on losing the weight. You might have lost some muscle mass but its so good for your health. 

Thanks... Yeah, it was overdo.  Working on strength training and core exercises along with my coach's swing drills.

[NM01]

10 hours ago, jimfoley said:

 

that's interesting. When I was in the simulator on trackman I slowly got used to the whippy shaft after hitting it over and over. But when I was on the course on the tee, it felt like puddy in my hands. I felt I couldn't swing it hard because I wasn't sure where it would go. So I swung it even slower. With the regular I can take my usual swing and dont' have the feeling that it will close the face to fast.  And this isn't ego. I hit a club that said little boy shaft if it helped me. 

This is why fitters swap after 2-3 swings. You adjusted your swing to the shaft and found a way to make it work in that situation thru repetition while on the course you only swing it once then swing some other club, make some short game swings and putt then hit driver again and rinse me repeat. What happens is you are constantly adjusting on every driver swing on the course based on what you felt on the last swing and/or ball flight.

10 hours ago, jimfoley said:

yeah, i thank all the golfer who helped. I'm just not going to sweat a few yards here or there and when I get a little older and weaker I'll grab the senior shaft. thanks for the comment. 

There’s no guarantee that at that point the senior shaft you tried would work. 

[jimfoley]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This is why fitters swap after 2-3 swings. You adjusted your swing to the shaft and found a way to make it work in that situation thru repetition while on the course you only swing it once then swing some other club, make some short game swings and putt then hit driver again and rinse me repeat. What happens is you are constantly adjusting on every driver swing on the course based on what you felt on the last swing and/or ball flight.

There’s no guarantee that at that point the senior shaft you tried would work. 

thanks again RickyBobby for all your insight. Talking with you has really helped me think this through and removed a lot of my anxiety. I know that in this troubled world how you hit our driver is no big deal but I so enjoy playing and want to play my best. I've finished 2nd in our senior club championship the last 3 years by either a single stroke or in a sudden death playoff and its just so tempting to think that a few more yards might make the difference. 

Anyway, in the final analysis (and let me know if you agree/disagree) I think the difference between an oban REG 55 gram shaft and an oban SENIOR 45 gram shaft isn't much. On the oban website all they say is that that that senior shaft should launch ever so slightly higher  than the regular but that both are for slow, smooth swingers. The one fitter was just pushing the senior shaft and perhaps he was right---it would give me a few more yards and I might get used to it. But it just didn't feel right. Still with the need for distance (my good handicap is because I'm a short game wizard) its so tempting to think "oh, when I get used to that lighter shaft I'll be swinging faster and the ball will be jumping off my club." But with my small stature, age, and slow swing speed its just not going to happen unless I get stronger, more flexible, etc. 

By the way, I have oban Oi-Series Graphite shafts in my irons. They rate them as A/R so between senior and regular. I hit them great. 

If you have any final thoughts I'm all ears, 

Jim

[jimfoley]

One final thing. The one fitter said he originally put me in the senior flex because oban shafts run slightly more firm than normal. I don't know if that's true but when I contacted the oban people they said their shafts run about normal. 

[NM01]

43 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

Anyway, in the final analysis (and let me know if you agree/disagree) I think the difference between an oban REG 55 gram shaft and an oban SENIOR 45 gram shaft isn't much. On the oban website all they say is that that that senior shaft should launch ever so slightly higher  than the regular but that both are for slow, smooth swingers.

Flex can only be compared within the same shaft line on the same weight class. So using the 55 as the example the stiff, regular and senior flex can be compared against each other for flex. Once you drop to the 45 the flex comparison to the 55 isn’t relevant. Now for some that change may not matter much as they aren’t as sensitive to weight change. While others will see a performance difference because the change in weight affects how things feel and will result in manipulating the swing to make the shaft work.

The website gives general guidelines but that’s about it. As mentioned above how the weight, feel, balance of the club would affect people of the same swing speed, tempo and transition type differently. 
 

48 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

The one fitter was just pushing the senior shaft and perhaps he was right---it would give me a few more yards and I might get used to it.

That’s a bad fitter. A good fitter should know that theres no guarantee that a shaft will just give a few extra yards. It either appears on the monitor readings or it doesn’t, and a good fitter isn’t going to say you will get used to it. The shaft either works or it doesn’t and you don’t give a golfer something they will get used to because there’s no guarantee that they will.

 

51 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

But it just didn't feel right.

This is what’s important. A shaft and/or club combo that doest feel right is a bad fit.

52 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

Still with the need for distance (my good handicap is because I'm a short game wizard) its so tempting to think "oh, when I get used to that lighter shaft I'll be swinging faster and the ball will be jumping off my club." But with my small stature, age, and slow swing speed its just not going to happen unless I get stronger, more flexible, etc. 

lighter shafts don’t guarantee more distance and in some cases can mean less because the golfer manipulates the swing and they slow it down. Flexibility may or may not be necessary, but yes age and your stature are working against you. Getting stronger will help as will as making sure you have good swing sequencing. This can add distance as easily as speed training. But learning to swing faster without negatively affecting the swing will also help.

 

51 minutes ago, jimfoley said:

One final thing. The one fitter said he originally put me in the senior flex because oban shafts run slightly more firm than normal. I don't know if that's true but when I contacted the oban people they said their shafts run about normal. 

Again this is right and wrong. With no standard in flex this is only true in reference to some other shaft so it has to be put in context of what he’s comparing to. Compare to a project x shaft it’s probably not true. To some other brands that aren’t as stout in the design it could be true but it’s also golfer dependent

 

[jimfoley]

thanks so much for all the time and thought you put into this. Everything you say makes sense to me. And on trackman both carry and total distance were identical with the shafts. But dispersion was a bit worse with the whippier shaft. 

Bottom line, as you put it succiecntly, "A shaft and/or club combo that doesnt feel right is a bad fit." 

 

thanks again, you've made a guy in Seattle feel better about his choice of clubs. 

 

John