Course management…Pin seeker vs middle of the green?

[cnosil]

4 hours ago, Old New Golfer said:

Interesting thread. Keep in mind. Statistics on pros on the tour. They’re playing courses they don’t know.

Golf course on tour are courses that are played regularly and the players have historical data in their yardage books.   They also study the courses and play practice rounds.     Also knowing the course does not decrease your dispersion patterns.  

[DaveP043]

9 hours ago, LeftyKP said:

I love this debate and as everyone has mentioned there are so many factors. I agree with most of what has been mentioned, but what about your skill level around and on the green? If the strongest part of your game is short chips, you may be fine short siding yourself on occasion from shooting at flags. Also, if you struggle with lag putting, having a first putt of 30 feet may end up with repeat 3 putts. Need to somewhat consider these skills even though most would agree short sided chips suck and should be avoided.

This is where personal statistics come in.  Many players believe they're really good around the green, or that they struggle with long putts.  But when they actually collect statistics, they'll find that they're still better off being 40 feet and putting than 30 feet and chipping.  The only way to know for sure is to collect your own numbers over a significant period of time.  

Another thing we haven't really mentioned, this isn't a black/white choice, pin hunting OR dead center.  The shorter the shot I have, the closer to "danger" I'm willing to aim, but I still might aim a bit to the safe side of the hole.  Consider OB pretty close to the right side of the green, and the pin on that side.  From 200 yards, I'm aiming left edge of the green, or even off the green.  OB is a severe penalty, in the rough or bunker isn't good, but still not as bad as OB.  From 150 I might be aiming dead center.  From 100 yards I still might be aiming 10 feet left of the flag.  

[cnosil]

I ran across this today and thought it was good information about pin seeking   Versus smart targets  

https://www.instagram.com/alexhuanggolf/p/C-p5imqR-T4/?img_index=1

[JDHolmes]

I ran across this today and thought it was good information about pin seeking   Versus smart targets  
https://www.instagram.com/alexhuanggolf/p/C-p5imqR-T4/?img_index=1

I dont have Instagram so couldnt go to 2nd photo or comments. I counted 41 shots with only 1 missing the green and that fringed, easily a par. No real reference for distance from hole (supposed hole) but I didnt see any issues.

I think the fallacy with his argument is that those golfers would all shoot for the stick if it was in the original position. That position is what I call a suckers pin, very difficult to get close to with high probability of missing green entirely. (Only a sucker would go for it)

Even as a pin seeker myself, I would not attempt to hit at that pin from outside 100 yds, but would be aiming left of it. Further away, closer to middle.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, JDHolmes said:

I dont have Instagram so couldnt go to 2nd photo or comments. I counted 41 shots with only 1 missing the green and that fringed, easily a par. No real reference for distance from hole (supposed hole) but I didnt see any issues.

I think the fallacy with his argument is that those golfers would all shoot for the stick if it was in the original position. That position is what I call a suckers pin, very difficult to get close to with high probability of missing green entirely. (Only a sucker would go for it)

Even as a pin seeker myself, I would not attempt to hit at that pin from outside 100 yds, but would be aiming left of it. Further away, closer to middle.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

You don’t have to have Instagram to get to the second photo or comments. Open in browser.

 

but your assessment is correct that if players went for the actual pin they would be missing the green and would generally score higher than if they played smarter shots.  You even acknowledge that you should aim for the pin even though the distance is 110 yards and you also wouldn’t target the middle of the green.  People think just because I have a wedge in hand I need to shoot at the pin.  

[chisag]

On 8/12/2024 at 7:27 PM, SANDBGGR said:

Do you take the same approach whether playing a casual round vs tourney/competition round?  I just find it hard not to pin seek during a casual round.  Because I know the exact yardage to the pin and distance of putt(reality is usually distance of my next chip ) I can also gauge my misses more accurately.  I would probably feel like I missed a birdie opportunity if I was aiming at the middle of the green and hit the perfect distance and my aim point.  Birdies are still very rare for me so I am trying(aiming) to be as close to the flag as possible given I only have 18 opportunities to get one during a round.  

 

... If shooting your lowest score is your goal, there is really only one shot to hit and whether you are playing in a tournament, skins with friends or a casual round it is always the same shot. There may be a few exceptions in a casual round like taking a chance on a risk reward hole like a fairway wood approach on a par 5 with trouble on one side. 2nd shots on par 5's give you a chance to save par, where most par 3's and 4's do not, but even then it might not be the best decision if you can't pull it off at least 75% of the time.

... A lesson learned in other sports is you play how you practice and golf might be even more so. There is always the correct shot on any given hole based on your ability. As a 15 index that correct shot is almost always the safest. The silver lining for even low index players is, let's say the pin is on the right side with a drop off into thick rough making and up and down extremely difficult. At scratch your target may be 10 feet left of the pin and as a high index player it may be 20 feet left of the pin. That silver lining is we don't always hit it where we are aiming, a push or a mishit can end up close enough for a really good look at birdie. And missing further away from the hole gives us a better chance at saving par than short sided in deep rough. 

... I will add our brains are more intuitive than we think. When you have a stock distance like a 150yd 8 iron with the pin tucked over a bunker on the left side and you play a shot to the middle of the green with a slightly choked down 7 iron you might hit it right where you are aiming because your brain knows it can miss left/right or long/short and still be OK with the 7 iron. But taking an 8 iron and going at the pin, a perfect shot or long is about the only safe shot as short and left/right can bring in trouble and your brain knows that adding tension and potential negatives into your subconscious thought process. It is very similar to having that rare birdie putt from 4 feet and coming up short due to the importance and tension, then casually rolling it in a 2nd time when it doesn't count because your brain is tension free. 

... I think learning to play the proper shot for your ability is the cornerstone to improving and playing your best golf. And that shot is always the same whether it is a practice round, casual or skins/tournament play. 
 

Edited August 15 by chisag

[chisag]

... I just wanted to add GIR's to this conversation. We of course are talking about where to aim but actually hitting where we aim isn't so simple. Here are some Golflink stats for handicaps for just hitting the green. A scratch player is hitting about 50% of GIR's and a 15 index is missing approximately 67% of GIR's. Granted this may be slightly skewed by too many firing at pins but I would suggest try playing a round and genuinely attempt to just hit the dead center of every green in regulation because the results may surprise more than a few of you. 


Handicap ... GIR Per Round

0-5 ... 9-11

5-10 ... 7-9

10-15 ... 5-7

15-20 ... 3-5

20+ ... 1-3