Taylor Made CEO Mark King delivers an uppercut to USGA

[SPY ZINGER]

Interesting interview with Taylor Made CEO, Mark King today from Orlando. King wants the golf industry to declare Jihad on the USGA and develop a new set of rules to grow the game. Sounds like they'll still manufacture long putters and he's not going to give up his own gamer either. From this interview, I left with the impression they may even start offering an entire non-conforming line. Started to sound a little bafoonish when he suggested players would snub USGA events in protest of the governing rules for these tournaments. Come on Mark-O you lost me there. The US Open? Have a read:

 

http://scoregolf.com/blog/rick-young/2013/january/taking-a-stand

[whiskey golf]

Some of his ideas are a little extreme, but I think the USGA likes to screw with people a little bit. I didn't get the groove rule and I don't get the anchoring ban. If it's available to everyone, pros and amateurs alike, then what's the big deal. Their rules are affecting the industry now which sucks for amateurs because we aren't gonna play in PGA tournaments so why can't we have non-conforming grooves and lately, why can't we anchor putters? Why make the game less enjoyable for us. If they want to do this to the pros, fine, but companies should be allowed to manufacture non-conforming equipment for the average golfer.

[RoverRick]

It sound like Mark King has been reading the Time for a Coup d etat? thread.

 

This is a vey "American" attitude. Europeans are much more likely to follow the rules they do not necessarily like. Americans are more like herding cats. We come to a rule we do not like. We change it and if the governing body does not like it, we change that. This sounds bad but it is one of the things that has made America what it is.

 

In terms of war, Rommel said the trouble with studying American war plans is that the Americans do not follow them.

 

Our club makes far more money on Wednesday and Thursday nights than on the weekend. Those nights each have 25-40 men show up for a scramble have dinner and drink. Drink a lot. Because of this the collared shirt rule was not abolished but changed to preferred instead of required.

 

USGA is either for progress or in the way of progress. They either need to adapt to changing times in this case accept anchored putters or go away like the collared shirt rule.

[RoverRick]

Some of his ideas are a little extreme, but I think the USGA likes to screw with people a little bit. I didn't get the groove rule and I don't get the anchoring ban. If it's available to everyone, pros and amateurs alike, then what's the big deal. Their rules are affecting the industry now which sucks for amateurs because we aren't gonna play in PGA tournaments so why can't we have non-conforming grooves and lately, why can't we anchor putters? Why make the game less enjoyable for us. If they want to do this to the pros, fine, but companies should be allowed to manufacture non-conforming equipment for the average golfer.

 

Why should they be allowed to do it to the pros? Shouldn't that be the Tour's job. USGA does not make them wear long pants that is the Tour. The USGA should be making less rules.

[Firstkart]

The USGA also has to understand that the there are substantially more people playing golf outside of the USA both amateur and professional. The Asian tour is growing exponentially both in participants and prize money.

 

Maybe in the very near future, the OEM's that currently cater to the US market might not do so anymore.

 

AJ

[furu]

I don't think they/King is alone. Nike is likely to have some of the same ideas. And I'll throw Cobra Puma into the mix too. Didn't MGS have an article about Nike and how they saw the game in the future? Swoosh-holes, augmented reality gps devices on buggies. And we've seen the golf-backpack.

 

I think there will be a golf game with less rules. But it's a new game, the "old" game will still be the same.

 

We can't just abandon USGA and R&A. What about competitions? Professional golf? There's no reason we can't have both. If there's 100 million golfers today, the goal has to be that they're joined by 100 million in the "new game". Not move the current players over to the new game.

 

King is right about some things but he has to accept that this is not a decision for corporate America. It's a lot bigger than that.

[RoverRick]

Forgive my middle of the night rant, I was not advocating the overthrow of all governing bodies. We have elections to do that in most cases.

 

However, we do not elect USGA "Leaders". Most if not all are old Country Club types from clubs like RP who see themselves as the last vanguard at the gate protecting this sacrite game from the savages. I played with a group of that type all week, they are all over 70, that griped about everything and everybody and praised how good it was in the old days before us kids (I am 47 and a kid to them) started playing and messing everything up. I have seen the pictures and it really was not that good.

 

But in the case of the USGA however, they made the groove rule that really did nothing but generate wedge sales. Their was not statictical evidence that it changed a darned thing, and when that was pointed out they claim it will take 3 years for the statistics to prove them right. B.S. Now, three years later, and three generations of wedges there is still not statistics but the OEM's are happy.

 

No evidence that the putters offer an advantage but they outlaw them to preserve the game.

 

They talk limiting the ball because the Tour players are making the great courses obsolete. Excuse me, but who does not like to see low scores. This week Tiger (T44 last year) and Kyle Stanley, who lost last year in a play off, and 154 other guys played the same courses. Tiger is -11 in first place and Stanley is +7 was cut and ended up like 150 and this year they use the same ball. It ain't the ball, and we do not need more useless rules.

[revkev]

It's so nice to have someone carrying my water jar for me - plus 10 to everything that RR says.

 

It's not that we don't want rules - we want fewer, understanstable rules that actually make sense. If the purpose of the rules are to make sure that everyone plays under the same conditions than why in the world can you repair a ball mark but not a spike mark?

 

That's a very small example that doesn't come into play much anymore but it's always respresented the ridiculousness of the USGA too me. They won't change a rule that is decidedly unfair but allow a generation of players to play a certain one, put a certain type of grooves on their conforming list for a goodly period of time and then make the claim that these two things which may be used by anyone and everyone don't feel right.

 

I'm sorry - I want rules - I just want ones that bring order not create more questions.

[SPY ZINGER]

I was able to engage Hank Haney in some Twitter conversation this morning. After being directed to this thread, Haney responded: "People think it, he [King] has the guts to say it."

 

He then tweeted: "Momentum is building for two sets of rules in golf, I think it is coming" "Ted Bishop is in my opinion doing a great job so far as President of the PGA, not scared to think outside the box and take a stand"

 

 

...This while wearing an Adidas shirt, and making adjustments to his R1 V2 since it's better than retail, but I digress.

 

I agree the Rules of Golf are confusing to many, to include myself at times. Some should be modified to grow the game, but there needs to be a universal set in my opinion, that everyone follows.

[whiskey golf]

Why should they be allowed to do it to the pros? Shouldn't that be the Tour's job. USGA does not make them wear long pants that is the Tour. The USGA should be making less rules.

 

You have a point there, my mistake, it should be the Tour's job.

[BK in TEXAS]

Why should they be allowed to do it to the pros? Shouldn't that be the Tour's job. USGA does not make them wear long pants that is the Tour. The USGA should be making less rules.

 

You have a point there, my mistake, it should be the Tour's job.

Exactly!!!!

 

The "Tour" is an animal in and of itself. The USGA should govern for the 99.9% and the PGA Tour should worry about itself and other higher level competition.

[TWShoot67]

Here are some simple rules for the other 99%. Rule #1 Play the ball as it lies. If you can't hit the ball for whatever reason that is belonging to course like tree, boulder,lake, etc.... take a drop 1 stroke penalty. One and only amendment to Rule #1 , if there's a twig, pebble (small rock), or anything loose that's not alive and growing move it out of your way and hit your ball. You can Ground your club anywhere., (who cares about testing the soil, sand or hazard, if you can hit it go for it, if you can't take a drop ; penalty 1 stroke). Count all your strokes and have a great day. The end. Oh forgot the Equipment rules: #1 use whatever you want that was made for golf, no hockey sticks or jet propelled laser guided ball slingers.

 

 

Oh yes if the ball is embedded anywhere , tough crap. Hit it or take a penalty stroke... oh yes that's rule 1. :lol: :lol:

[RoverRick]

As forum bard this calls for a song. The tune is Do you hear the people sing? From Les Miserables.

 

 

1^st Verse

 

Do you hear the golfers sing, Singing the song of angry men?

 

It is the music of a people who will not have yips again,

 

When the flipping of your wrist causes the ball to go awry,

 

There is an anchored putter choice for you to try.

 

 

 

We will live again in freedom of how we play the game,

 

But we understand the reason that the rules should be the same.

 

So why in the world did they wait 30 years ? what a shame.

 

 

 

Chorus

 

Will you join in our crusade? Will you be strong and stand with me?

 

Somewhere beyond USGA, is there a world that you long to see?

 

Do you hear the people sing? Say do you hear the distant drums?

 

Is there a rule we understand when tomorrow comes.

 

 

2^nd Verse

 

We will live again in freedom, if our back is stiff as aboard,

 

We will walk behind our push carts, we will put away the sword,

 

The chains will be broken and all men will have their reward.

 

Chorus

 

Will you join in our crusade? Will you be strong and stand with me?

 

Somewhere beyond USGA, is there a world that you long to see?

 

Do you hear the people sing? Say do you hear the distant drums?

 

Is there a rule we understand when tomorrow comes.

 

 

[golf-nut]

 

However, we do not elect USGA "Leaders". Most if not all are old Country Club types from clubs

 

That is the big problem with the USGA they are from elitest type clubs very far from the main stream golfers.

[Firstkart]

That is the big problem with the USGA they are from elitest type clubs very far from the main stream golfers.

 

Not an uncommon problem. These types forget that we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

 

AJ

[RoverRick]

Not an uncommon problem. These types forget that we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

 

AJ

 

They better not be cargo pants or jeans or no golf for you.

[BK in TEXAS]

If the 99.9% want to make their voice heard.....skip renewing their membership for a year like RP did....it won't force them to change their ways but it will be a PR nightmare they can't ignore.

[revkev]

There is a lot of great stuff here - no shock - there's a lot of great mates posting it.

 

I'm for TW's rules even if I don't like the embedded ball - if it were that simple and I could ground my club anyway always I'd live with the embedded rule because I could understand these rules (rule.)

 

Seriously you don't need much beyond the one although I do think you need some sort of equipment oversight it just needs to be on behalf of the recreational golfer not the touring pro. In fact the way to do that is to allow the PGA tour to make it's own rules in regards to equipment just like the other sports make their own rules - the football and baseball I used in High School were not the same as the one in the NFl/MLB in fact at the time I was in High School there were two different footballs (AFL/NFL), Basketballs (NBA/ABA), and baseballs (NL/AL). When I got to college I actually started using an aluminum bat and there was a, wait for it.......DH and DR for the catcher to save time (I liked that latter rule because I was a catcher and ran like one.)

 

I have little doubt that what RP was asking about on the first page will come to pass and that the PGA is going to start setting its own rules sooner rather than later. I doubt they'll try and run their own US Open. I think their preference will be that the Players takes over for the US Open as the 4th major - a lot of that will depend up how the USGA reacts to what the PGA does.

 

The time is coming so let the Bard sing!

 

Personally I hope the USGA wakes up and adapts because those of us who enjoy playing competitive golf do need a ruling body that sets reasonable boundaries.

[GolfSpy Tim]

Trying to get my non-golfing friends out on the course is super tough - soooo many DUMB rules that make sense to me now, but made no sense and almost stopped me from playing the game when I started.

 

Two sets of rules - YES please... tournament and non- or pro and non...

 

Baseball - aluminum bats, wood bats....

 

I'm more of a fan of Mark King now than I was before seeing him speak up openly about this and taking such a strong stand - sure, it will benefit his company in the long-run, but it will also benefit golf - I would love more than anything to see stuff in golf change so that more of my buddies were willing to suffer through their first year and get as addicted as I am.

[revkev]

Trying to get my non-golfing friends out on the course is super tough - soooo many DUMB rules that make sense to me now, but made no sense and almost stopped me from playing the game when I started.

 

Two sets of rules - YES please... tournament and non- or pro and non...

 

Baseball - aluminum bats, wood bats....

 

I'm more of a fan of Mark King now than I was before seeing him speak up openly about this and taking such a strong stand - sure, it will benefit his company in the long-run, but it will also benefit golf - I would love more than anything to see stuff in golf change so that more of my buddies were willing to suffer through their first year and get as addicted as I am.

 

Okay new thread idea - I'm going for it under everything else. We all have friends who are casual or even non-golfers - this thread will be about how to hook them in.

[Blade]

Okay new thread idea - I'm going for it under everything else. We all have friends who are casual or even non-golfers - this thread will be about how to hook them in.

Man! I was going to start the same thing! Oh well. See you there.

[ZenGolfer]

King sounds little too boastful to me. If the USGA deams any TM clubs nonconforming, most people arent going to buy them anyways (because any serious golfer would see it as cheating), same with long putters.

The USGA is the one holding all the cards here, not TM.

[SPY ZINGER]

What was that club that was deemed illegal, the ERC? Obviously, I didn't hit it, nor did any of the guys that I played with.

 

Did any of you guys hit it? Didn't Arnold come out in favor of it for the week-end, casual golfer?

 

Sorry, my memory's gettin worse, HaHa

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

Yes, it was the ERC II, named after Ely Reeves Callaway. Arnold did, and maintains the same today. Jack, was against it. The fairway wood in that line was incredible, but I'll never admit to owning it.

[apprenti23]

I still have one of those erc illegal drivers!

 

The USGA has a huge ego and will do whatever they want because they can; its that simple. If you want to play golf by the rules you have to play by their rules. It's no different than another sport.

[Super Tuna]

Oh forgot the Equipment rules: #1 use whatever you want that was made for golf, no hockey sticks or jet propelled laser guided ball slingers.

 

Ahem.

 

http://www.golftown.com/Hockey-Stick-Putter-Vancouver-Canucks-P2568.aspx

[BK in TEXAS]

Ahem.

 

http://www.golftown.com/Hockey-Stick-Putter-Vancouver-Canucks-P2568.aspx

I actually like that.......

[lmh3]

I still shake my head at some of the USGA decisions, from the groove rule to the anchored stroke ruling, I don't understand why they want to make them game less enjoyable for the general public. It seems as though they are so concerned about "protecting par" from the Tour Pros that they are forgetting that it is less than 1% of the golfing population that is able to shoot those scores and that they could be driving players away from the game based on trying to make it more difficult for that small group.

[RoverRick]

Dude, what the hell?

 

If you asked the guys that I play with or anyone that knows me, I'm not your typical "counrty clubber," either in the way yhat I carry myself or the way that I think or speak, lol. The caddies and employees love me cuz I treat em better than I treat most of the members(I dont' care for the majority of 'em), lol.

 

I mean, I'm on the golf committee, and after my golf sandal vote last year, one of the "last vanguards" told someone that I "probably was smokin pot." They're a pain in the ass, HaHa.

 

Ok, I'm pretty conservative, however, you've seen my opinions, views and beliefs in the forum, and I think that I'm reasonable.

 

You lump me in with those old farts?

 

I'm hurt

 

And the USGA?

 

They SUCK!!

 

I can't believe ya lumped me in with the geriatric geezers, lol

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

I originally wrote something like "old white collar exclusive country club types" but I knew you would appreciate the personal reference and call me names that you could not post.

[Tony Covey MGS]

I've wasted the better part of two days (although yesterday should barely count because I was half asleep and still recovering from the show) trying to formulate a response both to Mark King's interview with Rick Young and Titleist CEO Wally Uilhien's essay on the Titleist blog. I've basically come up with nothing cohesive, so let me try and express my thoughts in bullet points.

• Mr. Uihlein's ideas are antiquated and show a reverence to a history that doesn't actually exist. The traditions of golf are hardly represented by the bloatware the USGA calls the rules of golf. The rulebook we have today looks nothing like the original 13 rules. The history shipped sank of the coast of Pebble decades ago.
• Mr. King is right. Even if his position could be viewed as self-serving where sales of the TaylorMade product are concerned, in this case, what is good for TaylorMade is good for golf.
• Interestingly, Mr. Uihlein's reflect Titleist's stats quo mentality, and Mr. King's reflect TaylorMade's progressive, sometimes over-the-top mentality.
• As a governing body, the USGA has grown nearly useless. They continually overstep. They focus on the pro game to the exclusion of nearly everyone else. They've completely lost touch with the average golfer. And they've done absolutely nothing to grow the game. If you're to kill off golf, hey...those are your guys.
• How silly is it that the USGA talks about both limiting golf ball distance AND teeing it forward because courses are too long for the average guy? Talk about both sides of your mouth...or ass...
• Nearly every adjustment the USGA makes in a feeble attempt to regain control of the pro game negatively impacts the amateur and recreational game. This is ridiculous, especially when you consider who the constituency is supposed to be.
• Making the cup bigger is a silly idea. Groundskeepers have enough to do, and the last thing I want is a new rule dictating how to play if your ball goes in the wrong cup, or the wrong cup is between the ball and the right cup.
• Winter rules, gimmes...that stuff makes sense for recreational play - and you know what, it happens every day...and it's used for handicap purposes. Those guys aren't cheaters. They're honest guys who face real practicality issues that the USGA is apparently unwilling to acknowledge. There's already an unspoken gentlemen's agreement to ignore the rules when they simply don't make any damned sense outside the confines of the PGA's ropes.
• The rules of golf are incomprehensible gibberish. Almost nobody plays by the rules because almost nobody fully understands them. There's a reason why the a rules official is available on every hole of every tournament. This crap that passes for a rule book is way more complicated than it needs to be. It needs to be rewritten from the ground up.
• Saying we shouldn't change the rules or bifurcate because the same guys still won't follow the rules is an exceptionally weak defeatist argument. Make the game more user friendly at the amateur level and then see what happens. If not everyone falls in line - so what. At least we've simplified the rules for those of us who choose to play by them.
• Mr. King's statement that TaylorMade will continue to produce belly putters is inconsequential. The proposed ban is on the stroke (stupid, stupid, stupid) not the equipment. Theoretically the USGA shouldn't care.
• It's doubtful we'll see a new way to swing as Mr. King suggests, but if we do, you can be the USGA will act quickly to legislate. They won't see any need for statistical support to validate their argument (just like the putter situation)
• If the USGA moves to roll back the ball AND TaylorMade continues to produce balls that perform as they do today, the equipment world is going to get tipped ass-end up. This situation is exactly like the wedges and if TaylorMade ignores a mandate to stop producing non-conforming equipment, other OEMs will be faced with the uncomfortable choice of bucking the USGA or kowtowing to them while conceding a HUGE, never before specifically targeted market segment (guys who don't give a damn what the USGA has to say) to TaylorMade. They won't
• If that happens, why not really stick it the USGA? Roll back the wedge...and the driver too. If the goal is to make the game more enjoyable for the recreational golfer, that is, in part, how to do it.
• If that happens, I'm Mark King's #1 Fan. He'll get an invite to my kids birthday party.
• If any of that happens, the floodgates are open and the USGA could lose control (which would be for the betterment of the game anyway).
• If that happens, the USGA as Mr. King suggests will be a non-entity.
• Why do we think it makes sense for the same rules that govern the pro game to govern the amateur game. In no other sport does this happen (NFL and college football have different rules. The NFL doesn't govern Pop Warner...and so on). It's obnoxious
• Short of bowling, golf is the most easily comprehended sport on television. How did the rules even get to be so damn over-complicated.
• The USGA is spread way too thin as it is. They should get out of the rules business and focus on growing the game (instead of killing it).
• Two sets of rules would force so called "serious" golfers to stop looking down their noses as the recreational guys trying to have fun (incidentally I've found that anybody who frequently uses the phrase "seriously golfer" is almost always a serious *******). You want to grow the game? Get rid of the arrogance.
• The rules as written are impractical for weekend play. Return to the tee after a lost ball? At 10AM on a Saturday on a crowded Muni? No f'n chance. Let's make the stakes one color, stroke is enough of a penalty. The distance piece punishes everyone else on the course. It makes sense on tour, but not for most other situations.
• Bifurcation already exists. I can't wear metal spikes. Pros can. I can wear shorts. They can't. I can take a cart. They can't. I can use a ragnefinder or GPS, they can't. PGA Pros have galleries and search parties - essentially a perpetual forecaddie to help them find the ball - the average guy gets to eat the stroke. That's hardly a just and equal application of the rules.There's a serious case of denial here.

[RoverRick]

I've wasted the better part of two days (although yesterday should barely count because I was half asleep and still recovering from the show) trying to formulate a response both to Mark King's interview with Rick Young and Titleist CEO Wally Uilhien's essay on the Titleist blog. I've basically come up with nothing cohesive, so let me try and express my thoughts in bullet points.

 

Well said.