Sorting through Swing Thoughts / Accountability thread

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, vandyland said:

work). At the moment it feels like there isn't one position or part of my swing that is "correct." It's like, how do you tackle all of this? In pieces or parts, yes, but when do you "have" one piece and then move on to the next. Like I feel like my posture is getting consistent (at least it seems to "look" like I am in the same angles that JT/Porzak are close to) so now do I move to the first part of the takeaway?

You have to remember the club and body have to be in the proper position by lead arm parallel. The swing is 1/2 over at that point. From lead arm parallel it’s just a turn to the top. The arms and wrist are already in the right spot so there’s nothing to do with them after lead arm parallel until you start the transition. Focus should be on posture, grip and ball position.

then on wrist set. The wrists are done working at shaft parallel. If they aren’t in the proper position there then everything will be out of whack in the rest of the swing.

You’ve been working on this to look good at the top of the swing even if the swing itself was flawed.

You started off the journey with focus on cast a without realizing you were in a bad spot at the top. This kept you in bad body positions and while you saw some improvement on contact and and some streaks of consistent golf you were a bad day if time away from having a bad round or streak of rounds.

Nailing the fundamentals and then nailing shaft parallel are critical to getting better. It will reduce the compensations that have to be made later.

learn to hit balls from shaft parallel this will teach impact along with wrist set. Hit balls from lead arm parallel. If you want to use Porzak as the example nail checkpoint 1 and checkpoint 2. Hit balls from both. Spend 80% of your practice at checkpoint 2 or lead arm parallel 

3 hours ago, vandyland said:

If I were to go play for some reason what, if any of this stuff, do I try to take out there or do I just swing with no thoughts? (I have never been able to play without at least one swing thought/feel)

When you play you don’t worry about any of it. You play golf not golf swing. What you do as your preshot is create a feeling you want for the shot. This is where you can say ok I’m going to go to checkpoint 2 rehearse that 1-2 times then go there and turn to the top and then swing. Now you have a feel, walk up to the ball and hit it.

3 hours ago, vandyland said:

This is the big challenge for me in golf. I feel like I have the time/desire to go hit balls and practice. But it is the UNCERTAINTY of whether or not my positions/feels/theories about the golf swing are correct or if I am just building more habits. I realize this is where an instructor comes in but they, too, could also be giving me incorrect information. Or I could just not "speak their language" in what they are telling me is correct but I am just being a bad student and misinterpreting it. 

If you don’t speak their language ask them to explain it again. A good instructor is going to find a way to explain it so that you understand it. I would dump your theories on the swing and focus on what the instructor says or what they say in their videos.

Ask them questions to make sure you understand it. They will make sure you do.

3 hours ago, vandyland said:

Unfortunately, I want a certain aesthetic in my swing. I don't want to keep compromising on that. I realize that may be wholly or at least in part vanity. I'm always drowning over here. 

It’s completely vanity. There is no one swing and we all have our own uniqueness in how we swing. If you do the fundamentals right and create a proper sequence you will have a good enough looking swing that will also be functional 

[cnosil]

5 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

does the opportunity come up to hit a workable shot in order to get closer to the hole? 

 

https://www.adamyounggolf.com/should-you-draw-or-fade-it-here/

[Jim Shaw]

32 minutes ago, cnosil said:

https://www.adamyounggolf.com/should-you-draw-or-fade-it-here/

I agree with this scenario, however theee are quite a few “what if’s”. I feel like it is an opportunity to get the splatter pattern closer to knock in a few more birdies 

[cnosil]

22 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I agree with this scenario, however theee are quite a few “what if’s”. I feel like it is an opportunity to get the splatter pattern closer to knock in a few more birdies 

IMO, based on the course strategy strategies that I have learned there aren't many what if's.   Improve your swing if you want to reduce your dispersion pattern; you can't force birdies and you have no idea where in your dispersion pattern any particular shot will go.   Watching the below video,  I get the impression that working the ball is more for distance control.  

 

 

[Jim Shaw]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

IMO, based on the course strategy strategies that I have learned there aren't many what if's.   Improve your swing if you want to reduce your dispersion pattern; you can't force birdies and you have no idea where in your dispersion pattern any particular shot will go.   Watching the below video,  I get the impression that working the ball is more for distance control.  

 

 

wow, what a stripe show, particularly by tiger, there is a lot to takeaway from that video, number 1 for me is how they both move the ball on demand, particularly tiger, collin favours a fade at this stage of his career obviously but can conjure up a draw if he has to.

watching this video just verifies that moving the ball on command for the best in the world is a must, if I can work on that this offseason and get better at it then it will give me more opportunities to get the ball closer to the hole, ie tighter splatter pattern. more birdies, or par saves... 

[Josh Parker]

5 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

wow, what a stripe show, particularly by tiger, there is a lot to takeaway from that video, number 1 for me is how they both move the ball on demand, particularly tiger, collin favours a fade at this stage of his career obviously but can conjure up a draw if he has to.

watching this video just verifies that moving the ball on command for the best in the world is a must, if I can work on that this offseason and get better at it then it will give me more opportunities to get the ball closer to the hole, ie tighter splatter pattern. more birdies, or par saves... 

I think it's important to have the ability to work the ball either direction for those times you need to.  In my case, it isn't necessarily to hit towards a tight pin location and more of having to work around trees that block a pin location or green in general.  

I'm trying to think if there is any hole on the course that I would need to work the ball in to a flag rather than use the slope and can't think of one.  I have used shot shape to work against/with wind to get closer to a flag.

[Shapotomous]

8 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

wow, what a stripe show, particularly by tiger, there is a lot to takeaway from that video, number 1 for me is how they both move the ball on demand, particularly tiger, collin favours a fade at this stage of his career obviously but can conjure up a draw if he has to.

watching this video just verifies that moving the ball on command for the best in the world is a must, if I can work on that this offseason and get better at it then it will give me more opportunities to get the ball closer to the hole, ie tighter splatter pattern. more birdies, or par saves... 

Working the ball from a tee shot and approach shot are different for me.  For approach shots with irons i use what Jack said, open and close the face slightly for the fade & draw.  Although i dont try to work the ball with wedges, i play a straight shot with a 3/4 swing from 57* through pw.

For tee shots it is different for me.  There are a few holes on the course i play a lot where working the ball off the tee is very helpful.  There are 5 draw holes and 7 fade holes.  Tee shot clubs could be driver, 3w or 2h depending on wind and tee marker location. 

The swing thought key for me to work the ball is a high hand finish for a fade and a low hand finish for a draw.  I am sure something else happens during the downswing that gets me to those finish positions that promotes the ball flight i want.  But i couldnt tell you what that is and i dont want to think about it and mess myself up! 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Shapotomous

[Jim Shaw]

4 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

I think it's important to have the ability to work the ball either direction for those times you need to.  In my case, it isn't necessarily to hit towards a tight pin location and more of having to work around trees that block a pin location or green in general.  

I'm trying to think if there is any hole on the course that I would need to work the ball in to a flag rather than use the slope and can't think of one.  I have used shot shape to work against/with wind to get closer to a flag.

Good morning Josh, that video that @cnosil posted confirmed that the best in the world don't hit many "straight" shots, at least in this video, confirms my commitment to at least working towards it. 

[Jim Shaw]

1 hour ago, Shapotomous said:

Working the ball from a tee shot and approach shot are different for me.  For approach shots with irons i use what Jack said, open and close the face slightly for the fade & draw.  Although i dont try to work the ball with wedges, i play a straight shot with a 3/4 swing from 57* through pw.

For tee shots it is different for me.  There are a few holes on the course i play a lot where working the ball off the tee is very helpful.  There are 5 draw holes and 7 fade holes.  Tee shot clubs could be driver, 3w or 2h depending on wind and tee marker location. 

The swing thought key for me to work the ball is a high hand finish for a fade and a low hand finish for a draw.  I am sure something else happens during the downswing that gets me to those finish positions that promotes the ball flight i want.  But i couldnt tell you what that is and i dont want to think about it and mess myself up! 

what a great golf course that presents those options off the tee, unfortunately for me there is only 1 hole that demands a fade off the tee, and as "they" say, you can talk to a fade, you can't talk to a hook lol

[Josh Parker]

2 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

Good morning Josh, that video that @cnosil posted confirmed that the best in the world don't hit many "straight" shots, at least in this video, confirms my commitment to at least working towards it. 

Absolutely!  When I practice at the range, some of my shots with each club are always working on shaping the ball both directions.  I want the ability to work it when needed and feel confident in it.

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

Good morning Josh, that video that @cnosil posted confirmed that the best in the world don't hit many "straight" shots, at least in this video, confirms my commitment to at least working towards it. 

Straight is the hardest shot to hit as it demands that the path and the face match exactly.   Straight down target line is 0 path and 0 face to face to path.   Most players play a stock shot and attempt to alter the face to path relationship for more or less shape.  If you want to reduce dispersion pattern,  path and face angle control is key.  

6 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

what a great golf course that presents those options off the tee, unfortunately for me there is only 1 hole that demands a fade off the tee, and as "they" say, you can talk to a fade, you can't talk to a hook lol

I know we mention DECADE a lot, but through studying PGA players they do not work the ball of the Tee with driver and it is stock shape.  If they want to work it a different direction off the tee it is a different club.   DJ, Bubba, and Homa are examples of players that always fade the ball off the tee with driver. They have been asked in interviews and they say they never intentionally hit a draw off the tee.   Current course management advice for you on the hole that you say demands a fade is don't play driver or hit your normal draw. 

[Jim Shaw]

26 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Straight is the hardest shot to hit as it demands that the path and the face match exactly.   Straight down target line is 0 path and 0 face to face to path.   Most players play a stock shot and attempt to alter the face to path relationship for more or less shape.  If you want to reduce dispersion pattern,  path and face angle control is key.  

I know we mention DECADE a lot, but through studying PGA players they do not work the ball of the Tee with driver and it is stock shape.  If they want to work it a different direction off the tee it is a different club.   DJ, Bubba, and Homa are examples of players that always fade the ball off the tee with driver. They have been asked in interviews and they say they never intentionally hit a draw off the tee.   Current course management advice for you on the hole that you say demands a fade is don't play driver or hit your normal draw. 

in 2014-2015 I played a power fade off the tee but found it didn't hold up in really windy weather, and the players that were hitting "heavy" draws were winning so I went to a  soft draw off the tee which is my "go to" currently, I am going to stick with that off the tee and start working the ball into the greens this winter, I play 3 times next week so I may change my mind after that lol

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

in 2014-2015 I played a power fade off the tee but found it didn't hold up in really windy weather, and the players that were hitting "heavy" draws were winning so I went to a  soft draw off the tee which is my "go to" currently, I am going to stick with that off the tee and start working the ball into the greens this winter, I play 3 times next week so I may change my mind after that lol

But the best in the world generally hit fades off the tee 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-pros-hit-fades-so-often-bill-horschel

 

[Jim Shaw]

17 minutes ago, cnosil said:

But the best in the world generally hit fades off the tee 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-pros-hit-fades-so-often-bill-horschel

 

I rest my case, I am barely the best in Sooke...

[Shapotomous]

3 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

what a great golf course that presents those options off the tee, unfortunately for me there is only 1 hole that demands a fade off the tee, and as "they" say, you can talk to a fade, you can't talk to a hook lol

You don't have to play fades and draws to play those holes, an opposite direction stock shot or straight shot with a shorter club can keep you out of trouble.  But due to doglegs, hazards, severe slopes running to OB and even a fairway speed slot on a par 5 that could get you 40 yards of roll, it is helpful to fade or draw it when needed to end up closer to the hole.  

[vandyland]

A decent weekend of practice despite the weather, hit balls on the range on Friday and Sunday, hit balls into the net each night and played 18 holes on Sunday. Working primarily on handpath using the Porzak videos on backswing checkpoints which make a heap of sense to me. The hands low, early set of the golf club feels SO strange to me but when blended with a shoulder turn it looks right on plane. I was flipping my club WAAAY inside on my take away and not really getting any vertical hinge and I think it is/was going to be hard to play like that. During my round I went out and tried to just focus on that early wrist set and my setup and nothing else. Shot an 81 from the tips which is about 3-4 shots worse than normal so not a disaster and certainly some good shots in there. I wasn't filming so it is possible I was just swinging my old swing but I can worry about that on the range. 

I peeked ahead and I noted that Porzak has a bit of a different philosophy on downswing release than Monte (Porzak favors a later release). So that will be interesting. Jim Waldron also seems to be in favor of a later release so we will see. I am probably a ways away from worrying about the downswing at this point. All my misses so far have been pushes or fades. I don't think I have seen a snap hook in quite some time. 

Positives from the Round:
- Hit several nice pitch shots that had a ton of spin on them. I believe this is due to setting wrists much earlier and not snapping the club inside on the takeaway
- Driver wasn't that bad, hit several very nice drives BUT the draw is pretty much gone
- Putting was off the charts. I only hit 6 greens in regulation but made 4 birdies. That is pretty amazing for me. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by vandyland

[vandyland]

I also bought a swingyde, heaven help me I am getting back into training aids...

It should be here on Christmas eve. 

 

[Jim Shaw]

12 hours ago, vandyland said:

A decent weekend of practice despite the weather, hit balls on the range on Friday and Sunday, hit balls into the net each night and played 18 holes on Sunday. Working primarily on handpath using the Porzak videos on backswing checkpoints which make a heap of sense to me. The hands low, early set of the golf club feels SO strange to me but when blended with a shoulder turn it looks right on plane. I was flipping my club WAAAY inside on my take away and not really getting any vertical hinge and I think it is/was going to be hard to play like that. During my round I went out and tried to just focus on that early wrist set and my setup and nothing else. Shot an 81 from the tips which is about 3-4 shots worse than normal so not a disaster and certainly some good shots in there. I wasn't filming so it is possible I was just swinging my old swing but I can worry about that on the range. 

I peeked ahead and I noted that Porzak has a bit of a different philosophy on downswing release than Monte (Porzak favors a later release). So that will be interesting. Jim Waldron also seems to be in favor of a later release so we will see. I am probably a ways away from worrying about the downswing at this point. All my misses so far have been pushes or fades. I don't think I have seen a snap hook in quite some time. 

Positives from the Round:
- Hit several nice pitch shots that had a ton of spin on them. I believe this is due to setting wrists much earlier and not snapping the club inside on the takeaway
- Driver wasn't that bad, hit several very nice drives BUT the draw is pretty much gone
- Putting was off the charts. I only hit 6 greens in regulation but made 4 birdies. That is pretty amazing for me. 

sounds like a positive day, good for you... especially the putting...

[vandyland]

Worked on setup last night and the initial takeaway. Setup is starting to get upright again without the mirror/video to get me back on track. Have incorporated a 1 inch hip bump toward the target and my right arm in the "giving blood" position as well. So setup is ok, not great but still working on it daily.

The initial takeaway is a mess. I am watching both Porzak and Monte videos and I think my issue is my right arm folding waaaay too much and too early. Trying to find a feel that keeps me from folding my right arm since I cannot seem to stop doing it. The swim floatie I ordered barely fits on my upper arm (too many curls I guess) so it doesn't really give me the feedback I need. The early wrist set is supposed to happen with my hands staying really low and moving straight back and the club stands almost straight up. This is so difficult for me that I shows how late or not at all I was setting my wrists previously. This feels almost completely opposite of what I was doing which was probably waaaay over doing the "one piece takeaway" that can be destructive for many people. So overall, I feel like my first move away is terrible and sucking up all the oxygen in the room. 

In addition, I can't really even do a 1/2 swing like this and get back to the ball. I am still standing up in my backswing and downswing. My trail leg is locking out and my shoulders and hips still turn very flat. Other than that, things are going great . We keep going. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Trying to find a feel that keeps me from folding my right arm since I cannot seem to stop doing it.

Think right arm stays on top of left arm.

Can use this drill too

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-kuVOOl1B6/

[vandyland]

Worked on setup and side bend for an hour tonight. I think I realized I had gotten too far away from the ball (the toe being slightly up with my irons at address is strange) and that was making it hard to also side bend. Would hit balls for 5 minutes (filmed) and then watch back the footage for 5 minutes. Repeat for an hour. First 45 minutes were crap but the last two cycles yielded some better side bend.

None of these belong in the side bend hall of fame but I was really struggling with how to get into this position. I think it is down to not being “on top” of the ball enough. We go on….

[vandyland]

12/20/2023 - (PM) - A good reminder last night as I was doing my nightly 45 minutes - 1 hr of net + camera work on why getting the hips out ahead doesn't work (for me). Was trying a bunch of different downswing feels, even though I know fast hands and trail elbow in front of my hip is ideal and I could just feel the ball coming out right and SLOW with the hips out ahead (open) and the hands lagging behind. The ball was just coming out so weak. Nothing else of any positive note to report but just continuing the work. Have a couple of drills for tomorrow (21st) like the alignmnent stick through the belt loops to on 3/4 swings to make sure my hands beat my hips and everything gets to the ball in sync. Makes sense since the hands have much farther to travel than the hips that the hands need a headstart to get there in time (this is a Monte tip as well as a Porzak tip and probably hundreds of other teachers). I am not Gordon Sargent (even though I am a Vandy fan). 

12/21/2023 - (PM) - Had a decent session last night working on 3/4 shots but the SECOND I stopped thinking about my trail arm it starts collapsing again. No matter how far outside you take the club on the takeaway, if you right arm folds excessively it will pull your lead arm too far across your chest and put the hands outside/behind the chest and you get out of sync. I can (and have) played like that for a long time so old habits are indeed dying hard here. I am trying to keep my arms closer together going back and trying to think about RB's tip to try to keep my right arm above my lead arm OR just try not to bend my right arm at all (it still bends of course but hopefully not as much). Downswing feel is good so far but backswing is trendiing flat again. We go on. 

12/22/2023 (Mid day range session): We have live balls flying today. Ball striking was better than expected. Misses are still weak, low fades that seem to come from spinning out early in the swing. Employed the alignment stick drill where I put an alignment stick through the front belt loops and try to miss the alignment stick in the downswing to ensure my hands get a head start. See below:

 

Overall thoughts from the range session are that I have a lot to watch out for in the trail elbow. Not just early collapse but also if it gets too far from my trail arm then it can either get trapped behind my body and be late and/or it can make the shaft come in steeper into the ball. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by vandyland

[Goober]

I love that backswing. Makes it look like the downswing will be on auto pilot. And I concur with you . When I got my hands ahead of the pivot in feeling in transition. The ball was flying so well and my body actually opened up more than passive hands theories. When I try the passive hand and pivot hits the ball I do terrible. I almost have to feel like my lead arm transitions high as possible in transition.. ahead of my pivot. And the clubhead stays back. The speed and contact Is like a whip feeling 

[Martin2023]

Tonight should mostly be me being a scribe and soaking in information rather than running out and testing everything every 5 minutes.

[vandyland]

So far I am enjoying the swingyde. I got a cheap amazon knockoff and it is a *little* difficult to get it on and off since it is so tight on the grip but I have found it gets me set well in the "first position" in the golf swing. I found that, in order to accomodate my stronger grip, I had to rotate the swingyde cradle to "1 o'clock" relative to the club face rather than directly lined up at 12 o'clock. Also, if you have it all the way at the end of the grip it will force you to hinge TOO much in my opinion which forces you into a cupped wrist position almost no matter where the swingyde is oriented. 

On the full swing side, it feels like I know have a different way of getting to the top of my backswing (probably does not look much different). Instead of taking my hands AROUND my body and pulling the rest of my upper body with it, I know feel like my hands "set" about half way back and then I just turn my shoulders and chest on my spine angle up to the top. My hands/arms don't really feel like they move behind me that way. I got this from Porzak on one of his backswing checkpoints videos. It looks good but so far I am not comfortable BLENDING the two moves together, so it is (1) setting the wrists and *pause* and then (2) chest/shoulder turn to the top. It is like two distinct moves at the moment. Hopefully i don't end up swinging like charles barkley. 

Update: I reached out to Monte for a remote lesson. Need to see what he thinks about some or all of this aesthetics chasing. I am guessing he is going to say it is stupid. I will have to prepare myself for that answer. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by vandyland

[Jim Shaw]

17 minutes ago, vandyland said:

So far I am enjoying the swingyde. I got a cheap amazon knockoff and it is a *little* difficult to get it on and off since it is so tight on the grip but I have found it gets me set well in the "first position" in the golf swing. I found that, in order to accomodate my stronger grip, I had to rotate the swingyde cradle to "1 o'clock" relative to the club face rather than directly lined up at 12 o'clock. Also, if you have it all the way at the end of the grip it will force you to hinge TOO much in my opinion which forces you into a cupped wrist position almost no matter where the swingyde is oriented. 

On the full swing side, it feels like I know have a different way of getting to the top of my backswing (probably does not look much different). Instead of taking my hands AROUND my body and pulling the rest of my upper body with it, I know feel like my hands "set" about half way back and then I just turn my shoulders and chest on my spine angle up to the top. My hands/arms don't really feel like they move behind me that way. I got this from Porzak on one of his backswing checkpoints videos. It looks good but so far I am not comfortable BLENDING the two moves together, so it is (1) setting the wrists and *pause* and then (2) chest/shoulder turn to the top. It is like two distinct moves at the moment. Hopefully i don't end up swinging like charles barkley. 

 

 

charles is probably not a great visual

[RickyBobby_PR]

32 minutes ago, vandyland said:

s. It looks good but so far I

Your arms are still separating from your body in the takeaway and be lifted into place which is probably why you had to adjust the aid to 1 rather than leave it at 12. Your arms continue to lift to the top and not really rotating the chest. The chest will be hard to rotate because your hip movement is still left hip toward the target.

Your left leg extends way to early in the downswing 

[vandyland]

Well damn this Porzak video messes me all up.

https://youtu.be/RMBSWXX3Yrw?si=g044p-_VNzUMAxH1

I liked her upright swing WAY more. He is flattening her out. He is an expert and I am a moron but I initially was struck by thinking "man, her swing looked great the way it was."

I guess I am confused by the whole "don't get your lead arm pinned to your chest, but also don't lift your arms, don't let your trail arm collapse but keep your lead arm on the shoulder plane." It seems like it is easy to get way too flat that way over time? I guess this is why in-person lessons work better than me trying to self diagnose and work all this out. Lesson with Monte scheduled for New Year's Day. Hopefully it is a "New Year, New Me" situation. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by vandyland

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I liked her upright swing WAY more. He is flattening her out. He is an expert and I am a moron but I man her swing looked great the way it was.

You like swings based on looks.   He is trying to get people in position to minimize excess motion and not have to make  compensations.  He wants arm to match shoulder line;  I thought that is what you were trying to do?

 

[Goober]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

You like swings based on looks.   He is trying to get people in position to minimize excess motion and not have to make  compensations.  He wants arm to match shoulder line;  I thought that is what you were trying to do?

 

Martin Chuck told us all swings will look better on the range where every lie is perfect. Any motion that eliminates excess motion and gets one in a good place to strike the ball is the secret. Good post Cnosil..Chasing a look is almost futile. I would love to look like I have an A+ swing style. But keeping it down the middle and in play trumps that idea for me