Are clubs going too far?

[chisag]

1 hour ago, NoRebound said:

Yeah, it's not the good old days but its close enough.  On average I am almost 30 yards longer than I was before.  I am long, mostly in the fairway and starting to score well again. 

If that is what distance is doing for a guy who doesn't want to be relegated to the forward tees, what is the problem? 

 

1 hour ago, Erin B said:

I completely agree with you!!! I cannot wrap my head around this topic of clubs going too far. Before my back injury and surgeries in the AF I was bombing balls. Since then and turning 50+ not so much so I like the new tech and distance. I don't care if it helps the other guys, that's great for those young studs, but last time I checked, I'm not getting any younger.

 

... Nobody, including the USGA thinks the ball and clubs are going too far for Am's. As I have said many times, it is the reason I am all for bifurcation. I have seen more than a few young Am's consistently driving the ball 300yds but only a handful driving it 325 or longer like the guys on tour, so good for them. You will always have outliers but they don't represent the other 99.99 percent of Ams that need all the help we can get. 

[RetiredBoomer]

40 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Nobody, including the USGA thinks the ball and clubs are going too far for Am's. As I have said many times, it is the reason I am all for bifurcation. I have seen more than a few young Am's consistently driving the ball 300yds but only a handful driving it 325 or longer like the guys on tour, so good for them. You will always have outliers but they don't represent the other 99.99 percent of Ams that need all the help we can get. 

I oppose bifurcation,
but I also oppose USGA/R&A manipulation of the rules based on what world class elite players are doing.   

I favor letting the world class players show what they can do under conditions of competition arrived at
based on how the vast, in fact overwhelming, majority of players play.

Even setting up hundred of acres of this planet's land
to provide a stiff challenge to a tiny percentage of players 
while creating a venue where good recreational players can't break 100
seems unseemly to me.

Golf is not the NFL or professional boxing.
First and foremost, it's a participation sport for a lot more people.

Other sports like tennis, bowling, and billiards,
which are primarily participation sports
don't have bifurcation.

Then again, people can look at this from different perspectives.
Perhaps if I were a fan of pro golf, I'd see it differently
but I doubt it.

 

 

 

[chisag]

5 minutes ago, RetiredBoomer said:

I oppose bifurcation,
but I also oppose USGA/R&A manipulation of the rules based on what world class elite players are doing.  
 

Other sports like tennis, bowling, and billiards,
which are primarily participation sports
don't have bifurcation.

 

... These are just personal opinions but I am curious. Why do you care what Pro's play vs Am's? A bowling ball is a bowling ball as is a pool cue and unlike golf, I don't see Pro bowlers/billiards doing anything Am's can't do. I think Am's basically play those the same as the Pro's, they are just of course better. To my way of thinking golf is much more like MLB where they use wooden bats and Am's use aluminum. MLB players generate too much speed and not only would there be far too many home runs, the pitchers would be in serious danger as the initial velocity is much higher. 

... Again just personal opinion but Pro golfers truly play a completely different game than Am's and I have never understood why any Am cares what the Pro's use. 

[GolfSpy_KFT]

4 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... These are just personal opinions but I am curious. Why do you care what Pro's play vs Am's? A bowling ball is a bowling ball as is a pool cue and unlike golf, I don't see Pro bowlers/billiards doing anything Am's can't do. I think Am's basically play those the same as the Pro's, they are just of course better. To my way of thinking golf is much more like MLB where they use wooden bats and Am's use aluminum. MLB players generate too much speed and not only would there be far too many home runs, the pitchers would be in serious danger as the initial velocity is much higher. 

... Again just personal opinion but Pro golfers truly play a completely different game than Am's and I have never understood why any Am cares what the Pro's use. 

I second Sam's comments here. The only thing a pro golfer does the same as me is step onto a golf course. The level that they play golf is so vastly far beyond what any Am can do that I don't get the anti-bifurcation stance. Unless you're just completely opposed to change, I truly don't get it. 

Clubs are not going too far FOR AMs. Balls are not going too far FOR AMs, in my opinion.

[RetiredBoomer]

16 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... These are just personal opinions but I am curious. Why do you care what Pro's play vs Am's? A bowling ball is a bowling ball as is a pool cue and unlike golf, I don't see Pro bowlers/billiards doing anything Am's can't do. I think Am's basically play those the same as the Pro's, they are just of course better. To my way of thinking golf is much more like MLB where they use wooden bats and Am's use aluminum. MLB players generate too much speed and not only would there be far too many home runs, the pitchers would be in serious danger as the initial velocity is much higher. 

... Again just personal opinion but Pro golfers truly play a completely different game than Am's and I have never understood why any Am cares what the Pro's use. 

You make very good points, Chi, and I hope that I didn't sound critical of them.
My opinion comes from this perspective.

I think that my club champion and our head/teaching pro are REALLY good players.
So is our senior champion, who, much like yourself, would have to give me quite a few shots.

I know, however, that the players on the major pro tours,
including even the Champions Tour (if that's what they still call it)
are much, much better.

What I will never know, with the big stars playing on 7500 yard tracks,
is exactly how much better.

Playing pool, I can see how much better a champion is.
In golf, I can't.

But again, I can see your point as well.

 

 

 

[chisag]

31 minutes ago, RetiredBoomer said:

You make very good points, Chi, and I hope that I didn't sound critical of them.

 

... Not at all. Just a difference of opinion.  

 

[Erin B]

1 hour ago, RetiredBoomer said:

I oppose bifurcation,
but I also oppose USGA/R&A manipulation of the rules based on what world class elite players are doing.   

I favor letting the world class players show what they can do under conditions of competition arrived at
based on how the vast, in fact overwhelming, majority of players play.

Even setting up hundred of acres of this planet's land
to provide a stiff challenge to a tiny percentage of players 
while creating a venue where good recreational players can't break 100
seems unseemly to me.

Golf is not the NFL or professional boxing.
First and foremost, it's a participation sport for a lot more people.

Other sports like tennis, bowling, and billiards,
which are primarily participation sports
don't have bifurcation.

Then again, people can look at this from different perspectives.
Perhaps if I were a fan of pro golf, I'd see it differently
but I doubt it.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... These are just personal opinions but I am curious. Why do you care what Pro's play vs Am's? A bowling ball is a bowling ball as is a pool cue and unlike golf, I don't see Pro bowlers/billiards doing anything Am's can't do. I think Am's basically play those the same as the Pro's, they are just of course better. To my way of thinking golf is much more like MLB where they use wooden bats and Am's use aluminum. MLB players generate too much speed and not only would there be far too many home runs, the pitchers would be in serious danger as the initial velocity is much higher. 

... Again just personal opinion but Pro golfers truly play a completely different game than Am's and I have never understood why any Am cares what the Pro's use. 

 

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

I second Sam's comments here. The only thing a pro golfer does the same as me is step onto a golf course. The level that they play golf is so vastly far beyond what any Am can do that I don't get the anti-bifurcation stance. Unless you're just completely opposed to change, I truly don't get it. 

Clubs are not going too far FOR AMs. Balls are not going too far FOR AMs, in my opinion.

I could care less what the pros do. I do care about my game and I want to play the best golf I can for as long as I can. If that means that I don't play what the pros play, totally fine with it. I pay way more attention to what ameture players who are like me or better play. This is why I joined MGS instead of following what the PGA or any affiliation to them or other pro entity does. I care more about what people in here recommend like @jbern @cnosil @funkyjudge @Josh Parker @Preeway @Derek Eskam than what the pros do. Just me, but I get more real information from here than the PGA. 

Edited Tuesday at 06:52 PM by Erin B

[Erin B]

BTW, the members named were the ones that popped into my head while typing. I pay attention to what everyone is doing here, so please don’t think I’m talking favorites. I pay attention to the lot of you!

[RetiredBoomer]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

I don't get the anti-bifurcation stance.

There are actually TWO anti-bifurcation positions, not one.

One thinks that we should all play with the tighter restrictions placed on the pros.

One thinks the pros should play with the same looser restrictions we want placed on us.

They're both anti-bifurcation, but not at all the same.

If the same sanctioning body (USGA) is going to control 
recreational golf,
world class amateur golf,
and sports entertainment professional golf,
I want recreational golf, the largest sector, to have top priority
when the rules and conditions of play are determined.

That's just my view.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:11 PM by RetiredBoomer

[chisag]

15 minutes ago, Erin B said:

BTW, the members named were the ones that popped into my head while typing. I pay attention to what everyone is doing here, so please don’t think I’m talking favorites. I pay attention to the lot of you!

 

... No problem with most all those names but I am a little hurt you mentioned @cnosil  and not me. 

[chisag]

17 minutes ago, RetiredBoomer said:

I want recreational golf, the largest sector, to have top priority
when the rules and conditions of play are determined.

 

... I am sure you know the USGA tried that with the ball rollback and bifurcation but the OEM's and PGA Tour threatened law suites. The USGA wasn't the enemy of the Am's, the OEM's/PGA Tour was. 

[RetiredBoomer]

10 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I am sure you know the USGA tried that with the ball rollback and bifurcation but the OEM's and PGA Tour threatened law suites. The USGA wasn't the enemy of the Am's, the OEM's/PGA Tour was. 

I actually didn't know that, Chi.
Thanks.

I'm not sure that one sanctioning body is a good idea.
It probably is, though, because I'm the only one calling for a competing one.
My rogue club would probably join it, though!

[funkyjudge]

On 9/14/2024 at 6:44 PM, chisag said:

... Am's need all the help they can get. Pro's don't need any help. I am hitting my Qi10 around 250 and Rory is averaging 326 with his Qi10 but can hit it quite a bit farther when needed. Irons are a different story for Pros as Rory and a few others are hitting MB's and still hitting them prodigious distances because they rarely miss the center. But popular irons on tour like T100's make those misses hardly noticeable. Am's miss the center far more often than they hit it, so perimeter weighting and a thin spring face helps both direction and distance.

... Most Am's don't care about "jacked lofts" because they have no idea what their lofts of their irons are nor do they care. Hitting the ball too far with a modern 44* PW is about the same as hitting it too far with a classic 44* 9 iron. The pin doesn't care what iron you use. I would go so far as to say most Am's don't buy irons for a distance increase, they buy them because they need new irons and pick the ones that look best and/or are the least expensive. 

... Hopefully one day people come to their senses and realize Pro's and Am's play two radically different games and the equipment needed for each is just as radically different. Just my opinion but I don't think any clubs go too far for Am's, especially their irons. The game is and always has been about accuracy over distance for anyone not on Tour. Your wedges, irons, hybrids need to go specific distances so all your gaps are covered and what loft is on what club is really irrelevant. Just ask yourself if you have seen Am's with "jacked lofts" still missing greens and not getting up and down as well as hitting fat and thin shots and it becomes pretty clear that stronger lofted irons really make no difference at all for the majority that play the game. 

I do not believe that amateur golfers and tour professionals “play a different game”. The pros just play the game at a much higher level than the amateur golfers do.  My view is that the only level of bifurcation that is required is that different levels of golfers play from different course lengths.

I realize that some golfers refuse to move up and play the game from the tees that suit their game, and there is very little that can be done about this. If they persist in playing from too far back, and are not maintaining the required pace of play, then they need to be told in no uncertain terms that they can either pick up and move on to the next hole and begin playing from the appropriate tees or if they don’t do so they can leave the course.

[chisag]

15 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I do not believe that amateur golfers and tour professionals “play a different game”. The pros just play the game at a much higher level than the amateur golfers do.

 

... Doug, I get it and if you think Rory and you/me are playing the same game you are certainly welcome to that opinion. Interestingly last round I hit a big drive on a 346 yd par 4 from the 2nd tees and had 50 yds to the green because it was downwind and even though my carry was no more than 245 I was able to catch the downslope so 50yds of roll. But I then had an uphill wedge shot to a green I couldn't see. My playing pard said "That was an unbelievable drive and well over 300 yds" (It wasn't) and I said just think Rory could drive it on the green from the back tees at 377. To me that is a completely different game. 

[funkyjudge]

When I play golf with a 41 year old amateur who has 4 kids and doesn’t get to play golf or practice more than once a week, and he hits four drives of more than 315 yards, plus hits his 15 year old Mizuno MP32 irons  (35* 7-iron and 47* PW), and he hits that 35* 7-iron more than 185 yards every time he hits it, it doesn’t seem like he is playing a different game. Even though he’s hitting every club in his bag about 40% further than I hit the same club (and mine are all 4* to 6* stronger in loft than his are), I don’t think he’s playing a different game than I do. I also know that Rory can easily out drive this 41 year old amateur and he (Rory) would probably beat my younger friend by 10 strokes or more if they played each other, but I also don’t think that they are playing different games. Rory just has a higher skill level, lots of time and facilities to work on his game and coaches/physical trainers, etc on his team to help with the physical and mental aspects of the game.

I don’t think that the professional golfers who play on tour are playing a different game than amateur golfers any more than I think that professional billiards players or table tennis professionals (or bowlers) are playing a different game than amateurs who play those sports. The professionals just have more time, resources, and usually far greater skills, than the amateur players.

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I don’t think that the professional golfers who play on tour are playing a different game than amateur golfers any more than I think that professional billiards players or table tennis professionals (or bowlers) are playing a different game than amateurs who play those sports. The professionals just have more time, resources, and usually far greater skills, than the amateur players.

 

... All good and you know I respect your opinion Doug, we just see it very differently. I know I can bowl (I had a 211 average) and hit a billiard shot exactly like a professional. I would be playing exactly like the Pro's on the exact same playing field, I just can't do it every time. But I will never come close to hitting a full shot like Rory and don't play the same course he does. If I tried to play from 7500yds I would have a hard time breaking 80 and a score in the 70's would only happen with me getting up and down on almost every hole. I played my home course from the tips at 7100 and shot a 79 and I am usually around or under par at 6400. Again, just opinions and I am not trying to talk you out of yours, I am just giving you mine so we can just Dave Mason this one.  


 

 

[funkyjudge]

If I play from more than 6,200-6,300 yards on virtually ANY golf course, I have a difficult time shooting 80!

I didn’t know that you were also a bowler. Although I haven’t bowled in more than a decade, I used to bowl in scratch leagues back when I lived in Rochester, NY in the 1970s. The best man in both of my weddings was, and still is, one of the best scratch/money bowlers in Western New York. He finished a couple of scratch league seasons with averages of 230+ (I think that his best was 234). Opponents never wanted to face him on a “position night”, because he was almost surely going to roll a 700 series (3 games, not 4).

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

didn’t know that you were also a bowler. Although I haven’t bowled in more than a decade, I used to bowl in scratch leagues back when I lived in Rochester, NY in the 1970s. The best man in both of my weddings was, and still is, one of the best scratch/money bowlers in Western New York. He finished a couple of scratch league seasons with averages of 230+ (I think that his best was 234). Opponents never wanted to face him on a “position night”, because he was almost surely going to roll a 700 series (3 games, not 4).

 

... My Dad was the manager of a Bowling Alley. My jr year in high school I worked in the back after football/basketball practice and oiled the lanes late at night. I bowled for free after work so I got pretty good very quickly. I had only been bowling 4 months when they wrote this article. 









 

[cnosil]

6 hours ago, chisag said:

... No problem with most all those names but I am a little hurt you mentioned @cnosil  and not me. 

I am surprised I was mentioned,  must have just mistyped and selected the wrong name.  I'd put your name over mine.  

[Erin B]

6 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... No problem with most all those names but I am a little hurt you mentioned @cnosil  and not me. 

I’m a bad person, I’m a ! Love ya honey!!!

[chisag]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I am surprised I was mentioned,  must have just mistyped and selected the wrong name.  I'd put your name over mine.  

 

... LOL, to be fair Erin would have to mention every single member. I'm sure you know I was funnin' but as a permanent equipment tester and prolific poster you obviously are a teachers pet. 

[Shankster]

NASCAR drivers should be forced to drive a Camry from the local lot.  With some safety upgrades to ensure they don’t get injured.  Just like I would like to have access to all the niceties that pros have such as a coach, being able to play at Augusta, Shinnecock, and others, your truck access, 24/7 job of being a golfer… we don’t have that access.  Just like I can’t buy a Camry with a nascar engine, I can’t have access to pro golf stuff.  
 

Honestly, I forgot where I was going with this… but I do care what the pro’s are doing.  By George if DJ can get a square leading edge sand wedge I want access to that.  
 

I vote that they just step back and look at the overall state of the game.  Pro golf is already bifurcated.  You have different tours.  Rolling the ball back is not the answer.  They should have not let driver technology go from 200cc to 460cc overnight.  What did they expect?

None of this is probably accurate or relevant to the conversation but it was on my mind.  
 

Go hit it farther.

[Erin B]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I am surprised I was mentioned,  must have just mistyped and selected the wrong name.  I'd put your name over mine.  

 

10 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... LOL, to be fair Erin would have to mention every single member. I'm sure you know I was funnin' but as a permanent equipment tester and prolific poster you obviously are a teachers pet. 

Yous guys!! Yous guys!!

 

[Erin B]

13 minutes ago, Shankster said:

NASCAR drivers should be forced to drive a Camry from the local lot.  With some safety upgrades to ensure they don’t get injured.  Just like I would like to have access to all the niceties that pros have such as a coach, being able to play at Augusta, Shinnecock, and others, your truck access, 24/7 job of being a golfer… we don’t have that access.  Just like I can’t buy a Camry with a nascar engine, I can’t have access to pro golf stuff.  
 

Honestly, I forgot where I was going with this… but I do care what the pro’s are doing.  By George if DJ can get a square leading edge sand wedge I want access to that.  
 

I vote that they just step back and look at the overall state of the game.  Pro golf is already bifurcated.  You have different tours.  Rolling the ball back is not the answer.  They should have not let driver technology go from 200cc to 460cc overnight.  What did they expect?

None of this is probably accurate or relevant to the conversation but it was on my mind.  
 

Go hit it farther.

I hear what you’re spittin!

[Erin B]

Interesting thing yesterday. I took out a TSR4 and played it. I wasn't consistent with it at all, then I noticed it was lighter than my Paradym TD. Once I figured that out, bombs away. Weird!