Mizuno caught red handed! Anyone else have recent build issues?

[CRW]

5 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Fwiw, most loft lie machines do not have a slot or any other device to make sure every iron is secured in an identical fashion. I am very meticulous and use a Mitchel Tour LL Machine but I can routinely get a different reading on the same club when I bend a set, then after I am done go back and double check every iron. Being off 1* is pretty normal and I make adjustments. While you are correct and an angle is an angle, it is not an exact science and 2 different LL Machines can easily give you 2 different readings because they do not secure the head the same from machine to machine let alone the first or second time installing the same head in the same machine. 

I use a Mitchell Signature and haven’t seen this issue. Though I don’t build for others so I don’t have a massive volume of work under my belt.
 

If the scoring lines in the club are level you can use them as a reference to insure the club is mounted into the machine properly. I guess the top clamp could allow for some margin for error in the loft (not lie), but I haven’t seen that either. Though, I’m not afraid of marring my clubs and clamp down tight every time. 
 

I’ve even gone so far as to bend clubs numerous times going back and forth from the shop to the range at my club testing different lofts/lies for me across different clubs/offset and different shafts. When I put the club back in the machine I always got the same numbers I had when I bent it. 
 

I don’t trust the OEM’s to get specs right, as I’ve never had a set arrive that was 100% to spec. But I don’t blame the equipment, I blame the staff. Either they are rushed to get equipment out or they are lazy. The tolerances provided by some OEM’s are for C.Y.A purposes. 

[Pandaman]

On 10/22/2021 at 9:18 PM, CRW said:

If the loft/lie machine is properly secured and installed on a level surface there should be no "tolerance".  An angle is an angle.  If a loft/lie machine is off it's user error.  Either from being installed incorrectly or not securing the club in the machine correctly.  

With respect EVERYTHING has, and needs, manufacturing tolerance.  How much is acceptable depends on the application, and how much money you want to spend to get closer to (the unachievable) perfection.

I agree, 90* is 90* and an inch is an inch, but the measuring tools are inevitably subject to manufacturing, installation and operational tolerances too.  Human error is only one small part of this.

Would you want to pay, say, an extra 50% to cover the time costs of the builders checking and rechecking to get to within 0.1*, or the potential wastages of discarding shafts that are cut a fraction too short?  The more critical the tolerance needs to be the higher the cost.

[Zerpersande]

On 8/6/2021 at 11:22 AM, cnosil said:

You didn’t say if this was Mizuno that did this or the fitter/club builder.

I bought my JPX 921 Forged from the Mizuno shop in Osaka.  I find it VERY hard to believe that Mizuno would do this.

[Brooky03]

Note to self:  If I ever order custom irons with lie angle adjustments, I will have to have them bent because the manufacturer probably won't come close.  That's good to know.

 

If the tolerance range is larger than the range most people are having their lie angles bent in the first place, what is even the point of the custom spec?  This either means lie angle doesn't mean anything (if you ask for 1deg. up and receive 2 deg. down, the manufacturer considers that close enough), or you're better off just getting standard lies and adjusting yourself/at a store.

[Brooky03]

On 10/29/2021 at 6:24 AM, Pandaman said:

With respect EVERYTHING has, and needs, manufacturing tolerance.  How much is acceptable depends on the application, and how much money you want to spend to get closer to (the unachievable) perfection.

I agree, 90* is 90* and an inch is an inch, but the measuring tools are inevitably subject to manufacturing, installation and operational tolerances too.  Human error is only one small part of this.

Would you want to pay, say, an extra 50% to cover the time costs of the builders checking and rechecking to get to within 0.1*, or the potential wastages of discarding shafts that are cut a fraction too short?  The more critical the tolerance needs to be the higher the cost.

If I'm understanding what was posted earlier, that there is a 2-3deg. tolerance for lie angle, that seems like an unjustifiably high tolerance.  I don't think it's uncommon for people to order clubs that are just a degree or two upright or flat.  If the tolerance is double or triple the amount the lie angle is meant to be adjusted, why even offer the service?

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, Brooky03 said:

Note to self:  If I ever order custom irons with lie angle adjustments, I will have to have them bent because the manufacturer probably won't come close.  That's good to know.

 

If the tolerance range is larger than the range most people are having their lie angles bent in the first place, what is even the point of the custom spec?  This either means lie angle doesn't mean anything (if you ask for 1deg. up and receive 2 deg. down, the manufacturer considers that close enough), or you're better off just getting standard lies and adjusting yourself/at a store.

 

2 minutes ago, Brooky03 said:

If I'm understanding what was posted earlier, that there is a 2-3deg. tolerance for lie angle, that seems like an unjustifiably high tolerance.  I don't think it's uncommon for people to order clubs that are just a degree or two upright or flat.  If the tolerance is double or triple the amount the lie angle is meant to be adjusted, why even offer the service?

Even if you don’t order custom lie and loft should be checked because they are more than likely off, but I would suggest to don’t just go to a fitter/builder and have them put it on a machine and compare because they may not have the same machine the manufacture uses and there is also possible calibration issues. Instead use the sharpie/dry erase marker test and see how much they need to be adjusted and then adjust.

For some lie angle isn’t that important and 1° won’t have an impact on their ball flight.

But it’s not just golf, all manufactured products have some kind of tolerance and in some industry it’s tighter than others. With golf they are massed produced and there aren’t just making one set of clubs a day, but are more than likely building hundreds. As for the bending they’ll more than likely what happens is they put the iron on the machine and bend it the number of degrees requested and aren’t first setting it to what the manufacturers standard lie is or bending the number based of that spec. 
 

It also costs money for the level of detail to have exact specs requested and people are already complaining about the costs of clubs. Just compare the price from a manufacturer to what a club builder charges for the exact same setup. It’s going to cost at least couple hundred more if not closer to $500 more to have a club builder make them which are going to be delivered with the exact specs.

Example p790 directly from TM with my shaft and of choice is just under $1400. Same set from my preferred club builder is $1850

[Brooky03]

36 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

Even if you don’t order custom lie and loft should be checked because they are more than likely off, but I would suggest to don’t just go to a fitter/builder and have them put it on a machine and compare because they may not have the same machine the manufacture uses and there is also possible calibration issues. Instead use the sharpie/dry erase marker test and see how much they need to be adjusted and then adjust.

For some lie angle isn’t that important and 1° won’t have an impact on their ball flight.

But it’s not just golf, all manufactured products have some kind of tolerance and in some industry it’s tighter than others. With golf they are massed produced and there aren’t just making one set of clubs a day, but are more than likely building hundreds. As for the bending they’ll more than likely what happens is they put the iron on the machine and bend it the number of degrees requested and aren’t first setting it to what the manufacturers standard lie is or bending the number based of that spec. 
 

It also costs money for the level of detail to have exact specs requested and people are already complaining about the costs of clubs. Just compare the price from a manufacturer to what a club builder charges for the exact same setup. It’s going to cost at least couple hundred more if not closer to $500 more to have a club builder make them which are going to be delivered with the exact specs.

Example p790 directly from TM with my shaft and of choice is just under $1400. Same set from my preferred club builder is $1850

I understand the point about everything having tolerances and it costing more money to get tolerances tighter.  And an incremental improvement in tolerances usually comes with expenses that are not incremental.

Calibration or just differences of the bending machines seems to be the big factor here.  Outside that, though, if a manufacturer is saying a tolerance 2-3x the adjustment amount (if measured on the same device) is acceptable, then it’s obviously (to me) a service the manufacturer shouldn’t be providing.

As to the cost, lie angle adjustments are a few bucks per club most places. In your club builder example, that’s adding extra labor on top of the labor baked into the msrp of clubs, and multiple services (grip install, shaft trim and install, lie and loft adjustments).  Some of those the manufacturers seem to get right more than others, so it’s not just the added precision you’d be paying for.  I’m referring to one particular adjustment that appears to have an unreasonable tolerance.  It’s an adjustment that pro shops can make for a small amount of money that happens to be almost pure profit.  It’s a hard sell, imo, that club manufacturers benefitting from economies of scale couldn’t do a better job here.

I’m hoping this just comes down to the differences in bending machines.  That’s a much easier pill to swallow.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Brooky03

[Hook DeLoft]

I agree that it is irritating that a company would offer custom specs and then not come close to providing what they say they are providing.  A final QC with a loft and lie machine would make that a piece of cake.  Being off by 2 or 3 degrees tells me that step isn't being done.  Maybe they are checking that the proper shafts and grips were used and maybe checking the length.  Maybe they spot check every 10 or 20 or 40 builds.  I don't know.  Thank God they're not making medications or life sustaining machinery.  My local shop will check and correct loft and lie on custom ordered clubs for no charge.  He charges a small amount to bend clubs that he didn't sell.  I am OC enough that I have had him check the specs on a demo iron before ordering a set.

A recent example:  I am testing MacGregor MT-86 OS irons.  I had the lofts and lies checked and they were all over the place.  I had them adjusted to the ordered specs.  Just for kicks, I then took the 7 iron to another shop and had him check the lie and loft.  He measured an exact match to the changes done by the other shop, so, in this case only, different machines and different users made no difference.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Brooky03 said:

Calibration or just differences of the bending machines seems to be the big factor here.  Outside that, though, if a manufacturer is saying a tolerance 2-3x the adjustment amount (if measured on the same device) is acceptable, then it’s obviously (to me) a service the manufacturer shouldn’t be providing.

No manufacturer is saying that. Pretty much every iron can be bent 4° either direction. So 2-3x that would be 8-12° which isn’t real. The tolerance is 1-3° of stated spec on the website. So if it’s 62° going to be 1-3° from that either up or down. Even at 3° off most bending is going to fall into a range that is acceptable. 

 

1 hour ago, Brooky03 said:

In your club builder example, that’s adding extra labor on top of the labor baked into the msrp of clubs, and multiple services (grip install, shaft trim and install, lie and loft adjustments).

My club builder offers shaft of choice and grip of choice for no extra cost and it’s actually cheaper thru my club builder for the grip I use compared to what the manufacturers price, which for most grips is $7+. Yes he has to trim and possibly make loft and lie adjustments dependin on customer request. But you are going to pay for that labor if you want the oems to be able to build every club to the stated spec on the website and any changes to that. It takes more time and time is money. It’s also going to add time to the quoted delivery date. Most if not all oems assembly plants have people that do each section of the build so you would need to hire more people so not only will the cost for each worker go up to be more precise in the build but labor costs goes up to add more workers

 

1 hour ago, Brooky03 said:

I’m hoping this just comes down to the differences in bending machines.  That’s a much easier pill to swallow.

It’s has nothing to do with bending machines. When the club is made is where the tolerances come from. The lie adjustment machine only comes into play when there is a requested lie or even loft angle. So when the club is shipped the measurements for custom lie or loft are based off that machine. As mentioned above I wouldn’t take the club right to the shop to be checked because of what I said above about the different machines, the user of the machine and potential of machines being out of calibration. Instead do the sharpie test and see if they are off from what was ordered and then adjust when necessary 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Hook DeLoft said:

agree that it is irritating that a company would offer custom specs and then not come close to providing what they say they are providing.  A final QC with a loft and lie machine would make that a piece of cake.  Being off by 2 or 3 degrees tells me that step isn't being done. 

They could be off simply due to the machine used at the factory and the one at a shop where they are being checked. So they could easily ship on spec and then be “out of spec” when checked and the perception is that the oem didn’t build to spec when they actually did. Even the user of the machine could have it setup wrong and cause it to appear to be built wrong.

The spec sheet would tell one what they received. 
 

The same goes for things like swing weight. The oem will do the best they can to meet the request but none guarantee it. 

[Brooky03]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

No manufacturer is saying that. Pretty much every iron can be bent 4° either direction. So 2-3x that would be 8-12° which isn’t real. The tolerance is 1-3° of stated spec on the website. So if it’s 62° going to be 1-3° from that either up or down. Even at 3° off most bending is going to fall into a range that is acceptable. 

 

My club builder offers shaft of choice and grip of choice for no extra cost and it’s actually cheaper thru my club builder for the grip I use compared to what the manufacturers price, which for most grips is $7+. Yes he has to trim and possibly make loft and lie adjustments dependin on customer request. But you are going to pay for that labor if you want the oems to be able to build every club to the stated spec on the website and any changes to that. It takes more time and time is money. It’s also going to add time to the quoted delivery date. Most if not all oems assembly plants have people that do each section of the build so you would need to hire more people so not only will the cost for each worker go up to be more precise in the build but labor costs goes up to add more workers

 

It’s has nothing to do with bending machines. When the club is made is where the tolerances come from. The lie adjustment machine only comes into play when there is a requested lie or even loft angle. So when the club is shipped the measurements for custom lie or loft are based off that machine. As mentioned above I wouldn’t take the club right to the shop to be checked because of what I said above about the different machines, the user of the machine and potential of machines being out of calibration. Instead do the sharpie test and see if they are off from what was ordered and then adjust when necessary 

2-3x is in reference to the lie adjustment.  Example:  I want a club that has a standard lie angle of 62* bent to 63*.  If the manufacturer allows up to a 3* tolerance, that club that's supposed to be 62* is actually 65* and then they bend it the 1* up that was ordered and deliver a club at 66* (3* above spec) and call it good.  That 'tolerance' is 3x the amount of the adjustment (1*).  A tolerance amount that much larger than the adjustment amount reduces the value of the service to practically zero, in my eyes.  Just deliver a standard iron at that point.  I'd argue that's a service that shouldn't be offered.

 

It wouldn't cost hundreds per set for club manufacturers to get customer order lie angle tolerance (and loft, for that matter) tighter.  I'll say with confidence it's not close to hundreds per set at the volume we're talking about here.  Like I was saying, we're not paying builders $400+ solely for precision.  The MSRP of a club includes the labor cost to the manufacturer to both make and assemble the clubs (for instance, you don't usually get discounted prices for unassembled clubs).  By going through a builder, the majority of the builder's added cost is essentially a duplicate payment of labor already factored into the MSRP of the club.  You're paying for the club to be assembled twice, even if it's only actually assemble once.  The builder has his own profit margins on top of that.  The 'precision' cost is a fraction of that $400+.  Specifically to lie angle, if you want it precise, that's about $50 for a set of irons.  Club manufacturers with more resources and economies of scale should be able to reasonably provide the same precision at half that cost or better, which should already be rolled into the MSRP.  My understanding is that club manufacturers are already pretty good with loft and length outside of the odd goof up but, similarly, it shouldn't be burdensome or cost prohibitive to get those tolerances to reasonable levels if they're not already.

 

Presumably, the manufacturers check the lie angles of their clubs before they head out the door, no?  If they're not checking them, how do they know they're within that 1-3* tolerance on a standard order?  They just rely on the customer to tell them they did it wrong,  knowing most won't/can't check?  That's not superb business practice, but maybe that's the case.  If we assume they do use the equipment to check lie angle - not just pluses and minuses to bend it up or down - I don't see how it's unreasonable to incorporate that into the bending process.

Maybe that's all too much for standard orders.  Fine.  But it shouldn't be for custom orders.  I know I'm probably getting too into the weeds here, but just incorporate measuring the actual lie angle into the lie angle bending process.  So, the worker - who already has to put an iron in a bending machine for custom orders as it is - puts the 7 iron in the machine, sees that the angle is +2* from standard, sees that the customer ordered +1* from standard, bends the club down a degree.  As the worker would already have to do for custom orders, s/he would repeat for each iron.  Since custom orders already have to be bent, I don't see how this adds much time to the process if it adds any time at all.

 

I'm actually inclined to believe, or at least hope, manufacturers do follow some kind of process like the one described.  That's why I'm leaning toward chalking the lie angle issue brought up in this thread to differences in lie angle machines or user error on one side or the other.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Brooky03

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Brooky03 said:

2-3x is in reference to the lie adjustment.  Example:  I want a club that has a standard lie angle of 62* bent to 63*.  If the manufacturer allows up to a 3* tolerance, that club that's supposed to be 62* is actually 65* and then they bend it the 1* up that was ordered and deliver a club at 66* (3* above spec) and call it good.  That 'tolerance' is 3x the amount of the adjustment (1*).  A tolerance amount that much larger than the adjustment amount reduces the value of the service to practically zero, in my eyes.  Just deliver a standard iron at that point.  I'd argue that's a service that shouldn't be offered.

I can’t speak for the oems and how they do things but I would suspect they aren’t going to bend you 1° from a club that is already that far up. Not saying it isn’t possible but again yes it’s within manufacturer and build tolerances. It’s also within an acceptable range that it can be bent to the correct lie angle by a shop without any issue. Worse case the oem would have the golfer ship the clubs back and fix them. I’ve seen users on a few forums post about pxg, Mizuno and a couple other brands do that.

 

1 hour ago, Brooky03 said:

It wouldn't cost hundreds per set for club manufacturers to get customer order lie angle tolerance (and loft, for that matter) tighter.  I'll say with confidence it's not close to hundreds per set at the volume we're talking about here.  Like I was saying, we're not paying builders $400+ solely for precision. 

If you don’t think think it would cost that much more to have every head measured, every club weight checked, then every single iron built and checked you aren’t talking reality. It takes a lot more time and to at time adds up over hundreds if not thousands of sets a day in a factory working 24 hours to build clubs. 

 

1 hour ago, Brooky03 said:

Specifically to lie angle, if you want it precise, that's about $50 for a set of irons.  Club manufacturers with more resources and economies of scale should be able to reasonably provide the same precision at half that cost or better, which should already be rolled into the MSRP. 

It may only cost the club builder/fitter/guy working the repair shop that much to do a set of irons as part of his/her job. The cost of extra man hours needed by each of the people in the assembly line to do that for each iron gets passed onto the consumer. Now if they oem has to increase workforce to keep up with production times and or to add people to only do loft and lie measurements on each iron that’s going to raise costs. 
 

I can tell we aren’t going to agree on this and I’m not in the mood like normal to go back and forth so at least with you i will be dropping from replying 

[bens197]

I was super disappointed in the QC from Mizuno. When I picked up my 223’s last year, the minute I grabbed my 9 iron I knew it was off. The shop associate said how do you know?  34 years of playing and 12 years in the business.  Since I used to work where I bought them they let me use the loft & lie machine in the back. Below are the original specs and then what I had to bend them to in order to fit. When I messaged Mizuno they said take it up with the shop. Way to go fellas. That bummed me out. 

Out of box:

4 60 lie 22 loft

5 60 lie 25 loft

6 60 lie 28 loft

7 61 lie 33 loft

8 61 lie 36 loft

9 60 lie 42 loft

P 62 lie 47 loft 

After unboxing and bending:

4 61 lie 22 loft

5 61 lie 25 loft 

6 61 lie 28 loft 

7 62 lie 32 loft 

8 62 lie 36 loft 

9 63 lie 42 loft 

P 64 lie 47 loft 

 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Mizu isn't the only company to make mistakes.  My first order, around 2018 sent in to Ping from my Carlsbad CA retailer-fitter, came back wrong, white dot instead of black dot, on a 3 club set of I 500 irons.  A single I 500 iron club later also was weird, my fitter was unable to change its length because it came with a length extension already in, so it had to be sent back to Ping.  I just hope it was a rare occurence.  My 3rd Ping iron order was filled right.  I have bought 3 used Callaways from their pre-owned biz with no problems and a new PXG driver fitted by one of their guys is fine.  So I am not totally jinxed.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, bens197 said:

I was super disappointed in the QC from Mizuno. When I picked up my 223’s last year, the minute I grabbed my 9 iron I knew it was off. The shop associate said how do you know?  34 years of playing and 12 years in the business.  Since I used to work where I bought them they let me use the loft & lie machine in the back. Below are the original specs and then what I had to bend them to in order to fit. When I messaged Mizuno they said take it up with the shop. Way to go fellas. That bummed me out. 

Out of box:

4 60 lie 22 loft

5 60 lie 25 loft

6 60 lie 28 loft

7 61 lie 33 loft

8 61 lie 36 loft

9 60 lie 42 loft

P 62 lie 47 loft 

After unboxing and bending:

4 61 lie 22 loft

5 61 lie 25 loft 

6 61 lie 28 loft 

7 62 lie 32 loft 

8 62 lie 36 loft 

9 63 lie 42 loft 

P 64 lie 47 loft 

 

Those numbers are well within manufacturer tolerance and can off simply between machines used.

Based on the Mizuno website what they sent you is almost perfect march to their stated specs.

while I get everyone wants the receive what they ordered there’s not a brand I know that guarantees the ordered specs will be what is received including swing weight or correcting weight for longer/shorter shafts.

the only brand I know that will is Ping if the order is placed with their tour shop. I have had Ping reps or their reps from hq that travels the demo season with the Tory truck place orders with the tour shop to march specs in a fitting.

[bens197]

35 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Those numbers are well within manufacturer tolerance and can off simply between machines used.

Based on the Mizuno website what they sent you is almost perfect march to their stated specs.

while I get everyone wants the receive what they ordered there’s not a brand I know that guarantees the ordered specs will be what is received including swing weight or correcting weight for longer/shorter shafts.

the only brand I know that will is Ping if the order is placed with their tour shop. I have had Ping reps or their reps from hq that travels the demo season with the Tory truck place orders with the tour shop to march specs in a fitting.

You’re welcome to your opinion.

[Albatrossx3]

The butt end of the shaft has no bearing on the performance of the club, that is why every other shaft is trimmed from the butt to make the proper length for the club.  The only thing KBS does, is precut the length for the clubs before they ship them, they do not make a different shaft for every club.  ( then they would have to make every club in every possible length option, come on, nobody would do that)   What your issue might be is a different flex, kick point than what you ordered

[chisag]

14 hours ago, bens197 said:

7 62 lie 32 loft 

8 62 lie 36 loft 

9 63 lie 42 loft 

P 64 lie 47 loft 

... I have stated this before but when on staff with one of the Big 3 my irons arrived with the 8 iron 2* strong and my 7 iron 2* weak so the exact same lofts.  This is exactly why I bought a LL machine.

... I am a little curious why you went with 4*-6*-5* gapping in your 7-pw. Unless you worked with a LM and dialed in your distances, which is entirely possible at your level, bending the 9 iron to 41* gives you 4*-5*-5* gaps and on paper would seem like better gapping. 

[bens197]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

... I have stated this before but when on staff with one of the Big 3 my irons arrived with the 8 iron 2* strong and my 7 iron 2* weak so the exact same lofts.  This is exactly why I bought a LL machine.

... I am a little curious why you went with 4*-6*-5* gapping in your 7-pw. Unless you worked with a LM and dialed in your distances, which is entirely possible at your level, bending the 9 iron to 41* gives you 4*-5*-5* gaps and on paper would seem like better gapping. 

It’s a good question…I play a lot of 3/4 shots and try to keep away from hammering my short irons.  I knew I did not want my PW to be 46 and I don’t want to bench my 50*.  47 was the compromise.  The 50 suits my eye better than the 52 head and it lets me keep that gapping but not carry a 46 or 48.

 

 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, bens197 said:

It’s a good question…I play a lot of 3/4 shots and try to keep away from hammering my short irons.  I knew I did not want my PW to be 46 and I don’t want to bench my 50*.  47 was the compromise.  The 50 suits my eye better than the 52 head and it lets me keep that gapping but not carry a 46 or 48.

 

... While I am not OCD I do like things to make some sense to my right brain. So I would have gone to a 37* 8i and then I would have 5* gaps for 7-pw. Would it really make a big difference? Probably not but 5-5-5 would just sound better in my head than 4-6-5. As an added bonus 555 is the start of every phone number on TV and in films.  


 

7 62 lie 32 loft 

8 62 lie 36 37 loft 

9 63 lie 42 loft 

P 64 lie 47 loft 

[Ikki]

   Was order jpx923 hot metal pro

6 and 7 iron

nippon 950 neo Stiff flex from  mizuno 6 weeks ago

 

received  club this week  with the wrong grips.

decided to regrip to found out 

6 iron was shaft with 38.5“ (for 3 iron)

7 iron was shaft with 38“    (For 4 iron)

So it would change flex from stiff to at lease extra stiff if I’m correct.

  Any suggestion what should I do.

  Thank you.