Rules Questions

[Tom the Golf Nut]

I'm  fairly knowledgeable in the rules but I had two things happen today that made me question my assessment.

1) The course just cut a narrow trim line around the greens. This was to prevent unwanted grasses growing into the green. My ball hit the green on the approach but took the contour of the green and came to rest in the groove.  The groove was not wide so it did not impede my putt. The question is, was this a green in regulation. The ball was smack dab in the groove with 50 % on the green and 50 % on the tight fringe.

2) This one bothered me. I had a severe uphill shot to the green on a par 5. There were overhanging branches blocking my approach. My best option was to send the ball up the cart path low and bouncing and have it stop up by the green. My intent was to chip and putt one it got up there. The ball had around 10 rounds on it so I didn't care. I hit a perfect shot. I quickly ran to higher ground to see where it would end up. Then I notice a temporary water hose stretched across the cart path at the top flat part by the green. They were using this to water a new tee box section on an adjacent hole. The ball hits the hose and bounces back. Then starts rolling back down the cart path picking up steam with every revolution. Now the ball passes me by and stops 130 yards away from the green.  I treated it as rub of the green and played from 130 out playing 150 with the uphill. Since this was a temporary obstruction should I have dropped next to the hose no nearer the hole?

[NM01]

For #1 I would say it’s not. The ball has to be fully on the green in all the groups I play with. I would also interpret any rules that apply for ball on the green require the full ball to be on the green

For #2 I don’t thinks it’s a temporary obstruction. Imo that applies to things like towers, stands, etc. this would be rub if the green imo

[chisag]

... I don't have a well answer and as always yield to Dave, but for fun I will give it a shot. 

1. I believe if any part of the ball is touching the green, it is on the green. The ball hanging over the green is not on the green. 

2. It would be a temporary obstruction if you moved the hose or took relief before the shot but not after. 

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

... I don't have a well answer and as always yield to Dave, but for fun I will give it a shot. 

1. I believe if any part of the ball is touching the green, it is on the green. The ball hanging over the green is not on the green. 

2. It would be a temporary obstruction if you moved the hose or took relief before the shot but not after. 

I agree with Sam.

[cnosil]

7 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I'm  fairly knowledgeable in the rules but I had two things happen today that made me question my assessment.

1) The course just cut a narrow trim line around the greens. This was to prevent unwanted grasses growing into the green. My ball hit the green on the approach but took the contour of the green and came to rest in the groove.  The groove was not wide so it did not impede my putt. The question is, was this a green in regulation. The ball was smack dab in the groove with 50 % on the green and 50 % on the tight fringe.

2) This one bothered me. I had a severe uphill shot to the green on a par 5. There were overhanging branches blocking my approach. My best option was to send the ball up the cart path low and bouncing and have it stop up by the green. My intent was to chip and putt one it got up there. The ball had around 10 rounds on it so I didn't care. I hit a perfect shot. I quickly ran to higher ground to see where it would end up. Then I notice a temporary water hose stretched across the cart path at the top flat part by the green. They were using this to water a new tee box section on an adjacent hole. The ball hits the hose and bounces back. Then starts rolling back down the cart path picking up steam with every revolution. Now the ball passes me by and stops 130 yards away from the green.  I treated it as rub of the green and played from 130 out playing 150 with the uphill. Since this was a temporary obstruction should I have dropped next to the hose no nearer the hole?

1)  GIR isn't a rule, but it the lie would determine if you could mark the ball.    Rule 13.1a applies

a. When Ball Is on Putting Green

A ball is on the putting green when any part of the ball:

Touches the putting green, or

Lies on or in anything (such as a loose impediment or an obstruction) and is inside the edge of the putting green.

If part of the ball is both on the putting green and in another area of the course, see Rule 2.2c.

 

Rule 2.2c goes on to say:

c. Determining Area of Course Where Ball Lies

The area of the course where a player’s ball lies affects the Rules that apply in playing the ball or taking relief.

A ball is always treated as lying in only one area of the course:

If part of the ball is in both the general area and one of the four specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in that specific area of the course.

If part of the ball is in two specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in the specific area that comes first in this order: penalty area, bunker, putting green.

 

Based on those rules,   you were on the green since it was touching the green which is a specific area of the course.  

 

 

2)  Rule 11.1b

11.1  Your Ball in Motion Accidentally Hits Person or Outside Influence

a. No Penalty to Any Player

If your ball in motion accidentally hits any person or outside influence, including you, any other player or any of your caddies or equipment, there is no penalty to any player.

Exception – Ball Played on Putting Green in Stroke Play: If your ball in motion hits another ball at rest on the putting green and both balls were on the putting green before your stroke, you get the general penalty (two penalty strokes).

b. Ball Must Be Played as It Lies

If your ball in motion accidentally hits any person or outside influence, your ball must be played as it lies, except in two situations:

Exception 1 – When Your Ball Played from Anywhere Except Putting Green Comes to Rest on Any Person, Animal or Moving Outside Influence.

Exception 2 – When Your Ball Played from Putting Green Accidentally Hits Any Person, Animal or Movable Obstruction (Including Another Ball in Motion) on Putting Green.

 

Based on the rules,   you play from where the ball ended up. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

The first question was mainly to see if it counted toward my greens in regulation. 

The second one I played correctly by playing from where it came to rest. Just wasn't sure if there was a way around the situation.

Thanks

[NM01]

43 minutes ago, cnosil said:

If part of the ball is in two specific areas of the course, it is treated as lying in the specific area that comes first in this order: penalty area, bunker, putting green.

 

Based on those rules,   you were on the green since it was touching the green which is a specific area of the course.  

But the question would be first from what direction. As an example if it’s the front of the green the player comes to non portion of the green first 

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But the question would be first from what direction. As an example if it’s the front of the green the player comes to non portion of the green first 

Direction is irrelevant it is the order if the ball is touching 2 specific areas.   If it is touching both the green and a penalty area,  it is in the penalty area based on the order of the list.  

[Tom the Golf Nut]

13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But the question would be first from what direction. As an example if it’s the front of the green the player comes to non portion of the green first 

The ball landed 6 feet on the green near the flag. Then due to the slope it rolled left and came to rest  against the collar in the groove. I probably should have taken a picture. 

[cnosil]

29 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

The first question was mainly to see if it counted toward my greens in regulation. 

 

statistically you can count it however you want.   I read about people that count anytime they use a putter as a putt even if they aren't on the green.  

[Tom the Golf Nut]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

statistically you can count it however you want.   I read about people that count anytime they use a putter as a putt even if they aren't on the green.  

LOL, I'm not one of those. 

[DaveP043]

On 7/24/2022 at 11:44 AM, Tom the Golf Nut said:

1) The course just cut a narrow trim line around the greens. This was to prevent unwanted grasses growing into the green. My ball hit the green on the approach but took the contour of the green and came to rest in the groove.  The groove was not wide so it did not impede my putt. The question is, was this a green in regulation. The ball was smack dab in the groove with 50 % on the green and 50 % on the tight fringe.

I believe @cnosil answered all the questions, I have just one more thing to add.  There is a Model Local Rule (F-19) that treats edging grooves as GUR.  I don't ever remember seeing it in effect, so you probably had to play your ball from the groove, but it IS an option for the Committee to use.

[Tom the Golf Nut]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:44 AM, DaveP043 said:

I believe @cnosil answered all the questions, I have just one more thing to add.  There is a Model Local Rule (F-19) that treats edging grooves as GUR.  I don't ever remember seeing it in effect, so you probably had to play your ball from the groove, but it IS an option for the Committee to use.

I played that correctly then. I played from the groove. Granted it wasn't deep but I thought it was a worthwhile to discuss. My bigger issue was being hosed by the hose! 

Thanks for your input. 

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

My bigger issue was being hosed by the hose! 

Maybe the next time your ball will bounce off the greenskeepers cart and onto the green.  The same Rule will apply.

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

This is actually my first personal rules questions. Majority of my rounds are fun and abide by your normal rules but this was my first truly competitive round.

Scenario is this. Was teeing off and saw where my ball went. The right side of fairway and rough was all GUR. Completely torn apart, trees removed and the ground was still being graded and filled. To the right of that area was another fairway for the next hole. No OB chance anywhere.

So I lose my ball off the tee in the muck, searched for a hood 3 minutes all around where I saw it go as well as longer and shorter.

in this case should I have taken a penalty stroke (which I did because I was unsure of the ruling) or should I have dropped with no penalty at the location we all thought it went? 

[cnosil]

18 minutes ago, Lacassem said:

This is actually my first personal rules questions. Majority of my rounds are fun and abide by your normal rules but this was my first truly competitive round.

Scenario is this. Was teeing off and saw where my ball went. The right side of fairway and rough was all GUR. Completely torn apart, trees removed and the ground was still being graded and filled. To the right of that area was another fairway for the next hole. No OB chance anywhere.

So I lose my ball off the tee in the muck, searched for a hood 3 minutes all around where I saw it go as well as longer and shorter.

in this case should I have taken a penalty stroke (which I did because I was unsure of the ruling) or should I have dropped with no penalty at the location we all thought it went? 

Under the rules the ball is lost since you were unable to find it after a 3 minute search.   If you were playing the model local rule,  you follow the procedure detailed here:  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html .  If that wasn't being used it is stroke and distance.  

[Placasse61]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:44 PM, cnosil said:

Under the rules the ball is lost since you were unable to find it after a 3 minute search.   If you were playing the model local rule,  you follow the procedure detailed here:  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html .  If that wasn't being used it is stroke and distance.  

I am wondering if that would be considered under repair. I was at the same course 2 weeks ago and they had taken down a bunch of trees and there were piles of pine boughs, we could not find my ball. We all saw where it went but just could not see it. The group said that the ground was under repair to drop with no strokes. Was that the right call?  

[cnosil]

24 minutes ago, Placasse61 said:

I am wondering if that would be considered under repair. I was at the same course 2 weeks ago and they had taken down a bunch of trees and there were piles of pine boughs, we could not find my ball. We all saw where it went but just could not see it. The group said that the ground was under repair to drop with no strokes. Was that the right call?  

if the ball was found in the GUR then yes a free drop is allowed.  The key part of this is that you didn’t find the ball.  @DaveP043could you clarify if known or virtually certain would apply?   

 

[Placasse61]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

if the ball was found in the GUR then yes a free drop is allowed.  The key part of this is that you didn’t find the ball.  @DaveP043could you clarify if known or virtually certain would apply?   

 

Thank you. We all were certain that the ball was heading to the piles but not exactly where the ball stopped.

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, Placasse61 said:

Thank you. We all were certain that the ball was heading to the piles but not exactly where the ball stopped.

Could it have stopped short or gone past the piles? 

[DaveP043]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:24 PM, Lacassem said:

This is actually my first personal rules questions. Majority of my rounds are fun and abide by your normal rules but this was my first truly competitive round.

Scenario is this. Was teeing off and saw where my ball went. The right side of fairway and rough was all GUR. Completely torn apart, trees removed and the ground was still being graded and filled. To the right of that area was another fairway for the next hole. No OB chance anywhere.

So I lose my ball off the tee in the muck, searched for a hood 3 minutes all around where I saw it go as well as longer and shorter.

in this case should I have taken a penalty stroke (which I did because I was unsure of the ruling) or should I have dropped with no penalty at the location we all thought it went? 

If it is Known or Virtually Certain (KVC, please read the Definition in the Rules) that your ball came to rest in an Abnormal Course Condition (which includes GUR), you may take free relief.  In that case, you use the estimate spot where the ball last crossed the edge of the ACC as the position of your ball in order to determine your Reference Point.  This is all in 16.1e.  Note that 16.1e makes it clear, if you do not have KVC that the ball is in the GUR, then its Lost.  You play under Stroke and Distance (1 Penalty Stroke), or under Model Local Rule E-5, with 2 Penalty Strokes.

31 minutes ago, Placasse61 said:

I am wondering if that would be considered under repair. I was at the same course 2 weeks ago and they had taken down a bunch of trees and there were piles of pine boughs, we could not find my ball. We all saw where it went but just could not see it. The group said that the ground was under repair to drop with no strokes. Was that the right call?  

For this you would look at the Definition of GUR, which specifically includes "Grass cuttings, leaves and any other material piled for later removal"  It sounds like those piles of branches qualify as GUR, but as @cnosil asks, the question is whether you can be Virtually Certain that your ball came to rest there.  

[AlCzervik]

Regarding GUR, I'd add that abnormal course conditions do not need to be defined by the course or committee. 

[g.mac]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:04 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

For #1 I would say it’s not. The ball has to be fully on the green in all the groups I play with. I would also interpret any rules that apply for ball on the green require the full ball to be on the green

For #2 I don’t thinks it’s a temporary obstruction. Imo that applies to things like towers, stands, etc. this would be rub if the green imo

Rule 13.1a states that a ball is considered to be on the green if any part of the ball is touching the green. 

[StrokerAce]

this seems interesting... I'll admit, I don't know some of the quirky rules and refresher could be good.

https://www.massgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Rules-Webinar-Flyer.pdf?_hsmi=301363180

[DaveP043]

25 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

this seems interesting... I'll admit, I don't know some of the quirky rules and refresher could be good.

https://www.massgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Rules-Webinar-Flyer.pdf?_hsmi=301363180

Looks like these cover the rules that impact normal play the most.  At something just over an hour, it seems like a manageable duration, and if its being presented by USGA staff its going to be accurate.  Everyone can use a rules refresher at times.