Shaft weight or flex

[tdroma98]

12 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There is no kick point. It’s a balance point. And that alone isn’t a way a shaft would be chosen, it’s a combo The balance point with weight, flex profile, ei profile plus the head weight, loft, center of gravity.

I prefer a higher balance point driver and typically fit into a counterbalanced design. If I went purely on that I could any counterbalanced shaft, which in reality isn’t the case. I tried the tensei ck orange shaft. I tried the shaft in different heads, different flexes and different weights. It never worked out.

 

It’s because swing weight isn’t as important as people think it is. Getting the proper weight shaft and feel is what matters and if that it right it doesn’t matter what the swing weight is. Another topic that Stuart_G, Howard_Jones and a few other very knowledgeable people talk about on wrx when it comes to fitting. 

Obviously you hadn't read my comment. I didn't use "Kick point" alone in the decision making process- I take into consideration the weight, flex/stiffness, kick & Torque, which also fits my feel. 
If there's an issue with the term kick point, please take it up with Mitsubishi or other golf shaft makers who provide the term in their shaft specs.  You can argue the point however, For any further objection take it up with the manufacturers. the term "Kick Point" is used along with Torque, Length, Weight.  Here are Mitsubishi Diamana S+PLus specs:  http://www.mca-golf.com/products/splus, so the term was just pulled out of the air, but I do get it Ricky, believe me! 
for Diamana S+Plus - I took into account every spec in choosing the S+Plus 60 S shaft over the S+Plus 60X and over the Tensei Orange shaft, which had an upcharge.  This driver shaft suited me better and fit the specs that suited the weight & feel combination for the driver head (PXG0211).   Mitsubishi uses the same terminology for all their wood shaft specs including Tensei models.  

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

I'm still trying to sort a lot of this out for my own game. 

I put in a set of project x 5.5 rifle and while it feels okay, it does feel heavy and well I'm not sure that is really what I want. 

Playing lighter graphites truly felt better. 

It's a tricky balance and with do many options the best thing (own personal experience) is feel feel feel and test test test.

[tdroma98]

59 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I'm still trying to sort a lot of this out for my own game. 

I put in a set of project x 5.5 rifle and while it feels okay, it does feel heavy and well I'm not sure that is really what I want. 

Playing lighter graphites truly felt better. 

It's a tricky balance and with do many options the best thing (own personal experience) is feel feel feel and test test test.

It really is a tricky balance @GolfSpy_APH, getting the feel & weight right for irons is interesting fit!
Don't forget the weight of a grip also impacts the weight feel of an iron and can change a swing weight.  I put a JumboMax medium 52gram grip on an old driver.  The Swing Weight changed from D3 to C9.  Amazing how a 78gram grip changes the feel of an iron with a 50 gram grip.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I'm still trying to sort a lot of this out for my own game. 

I put in a set of project x 5.5 rifle and while it feels okay, it does feel heavy and well I'm not sure that is really what I want. 

Playing lighter graphites truly felt better. 

It's a tricky balance and with do many options the best thing (own personal experience) is feel feel feel and test test test.

These shafts are going be a stiffer feel and have a different balance point and flex profile from graphite and iirc you had/have recoil which are a stiffer profile for graphite. 
 

It’s where either lots of testing which can become costly or getting fit will figure out what the right option is. 

[GaryF]

On 5/10/2023 at 11:21 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not the kickpoint/balance ooont hat you like it the location of it and how to affects the weight. So again it gets back to 2 things weight and feel. 
 

From Wishon’s golf myth article on wrx 

Performance wise, the shaft, 1) can affect the dynamic loft of the clubhead at impact within a narrow range of 2 to 3 degrees, but only for those golfers with a later to very late release; 2) will chiefly control the total weight of the club, which in turn can have an effect on the golfer’s clubhead speed, 3) can affect some golfers’ (not all) confidence and swing consistency by displaying a “bending feel” during the swing that is either more preferred or less preferred by the golfer. That’s it, that’s the full list of what the shaft can do.

from Howard jones 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1860305-shafts-when-to-change-and-when-to-tweak-lofts/

 

Very interesting article.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, GaryF said:

Very interesting article.

Howard has years and years of data collected from all his fittings and testing. 
 

The amount of information he’s posted on wrx is crazy. I don’t know if here is a fitter that has the amount and type of data and information he has. He dispels a lot of the shaft and club myths out there. He’s very knowledgeable in club building as well. 
 

My fitting and club knowledge grew a lot over the last 4-5 years from spending more time on wrx and reading his threads and when he posts along with stuart_g.

[GaryF]

7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Howard has years and years of data collected from all his fittings and testing. 
 

The amount of information he’s posted on wrx is crazy. I don’t know if here is a fitter that has the amount and type of data and information he has. He dispels a lot of the shaft and club myths out there. He’s very knowledgeable in club building as well. 
 

My fitting and club knowledge grew a lot over the last 4-5 years from spending more time on wrx and reading his threads and when he posts along with stuart_g.

I’m currently going through the fitting process after testing out various clubs at pgatss’es and demo days over the course of the last 9 months.  I have done a lot of research on clubs, shafts and you name it.  I’ve got a number of sets of data from trackman and foresight which has helped me understand my swing tendencies, and an inkling of what seems to work form me.  

 I like the simple explanation of what the job of the shaft is and now realize that whether the shaft is low, mid or high kick point, it’s influence on loft while important, is fairly small.  The explanation of dynamic loft now makes better sense to me. In terms of its job of providing weight is something I’ve realized, but (the engineer in me) would say that the club head, shaft, and grip could be viewed as a system, and the combination gives a sense of feel and balance both in a static and dynamic sense.  I don’t think anyone can play with a measure of success without playing by feel.  We aren’t robots and trying to get too mechanical during the swing just doesn’t work unless you are a robot. 

Finally, during the iron fitting process I mentioned a thought about hybrids and woods -I loved his response: even though I charge a one time fee, this is not a one day process.  Once we get you set up with irons, then we will figure out the gapping and what hybrids and woods you need. 
 

 

 

[dlow206]

There is also the factor of some shafts just working better that doesn’t have a clear explanation. 

ive been fit into Steelfibers multiple times so i know its the right fit for me. I fit well into the Stiff in both the parallel tip and the CW in the 95 gram class.

there isn’t really anything about my swing that suggests Stiff in Steelfiber would fit me better than R flex in Steelfiber. My 7 iron speed tops out at about 85 mph, i don’t load the shaft super hard in transition, etc. From a feel perspective, i find the 95 S to feel stout especially in the 95cw.

in my last fitting, even the fitter thought that the R flex CW should fit me best. Even after some semi blinded testing where he switched out shafts between R and S steelfiber 95cw at random points in the fitting without him telling me what he was changing (fitting had head weight changes as well), the S flex performed noticeably better because for whatever reason i delivered the club better with the S flex.  I dont have any explanation for it, but it was what it was.

[RickyBobby_PR]

53 minutes ago, GaryF said:

but (the engineer in me) would say that the club head, shaft, and grip could be viewed as a system, and the combination gives a sense of feel and balance both in a static and dynamic sense.

Yes, it’s about getting the right setup of shaft and head combo and the right grip for the golfer. If feel is off there’s a good chance the golfer is going to make some sort of compensation in the swing to achieve the desired result it chang the swing. Something that feels heavy or stout causes golfer to swing harder.

[GaryF]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yes, it’s about getting the right setup of shaft and head combo and the right grip for the golfer. If feel is off there’s a good chance the golfer is going to make some sort of compensation in the swing to achieve the desired result it chang the swing. Something that feels heavy or stout causes golfer to swing harder.

Exactly, and what I have learned from experience and my coach, those compensations happen at the subliminal level.  It just happens because we, as all things, naturally try to find the point of equilibrium, but the result is usually bad for something that doesn’t “fit” us. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by GaryF