Debate: Golfers Don't Deserve Free Relief from Fairway Divots

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, MissionMan said:

It's not a huge issue in the grand scheme of things. The amount of times you land in a divot on a fairway is actually really minor anyway. 

This is what also makes the case for not changing the rule. Which was pointed out in the article you posted and taking out the emotional reaction of landing in when discussing the topic.

i can’t remember the last time i or anyone I was playing with landed in a divot whether it was filled in or not

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

i can’t remember the last time i or anyone I was playing with landed in a divot whether it was filled in or not

yesterday i played at a nearby private club, not my own, and I ended up in a divot on the very first hole.  I had to laugh, just thinking about this thread.  I did manage to hit the shot right next to the green and make a par.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

yesterday i played at a nearby private club, not my own, and I ended up in a divot on the very first hole.  I had to laugh, just thinking about this thread.  I did manage to hit the shot right next to the green and make a par.  

Nice shot

[Jlike]

IMO, you should be able to roll it out of the fairway divot, and i would say 98% of golfers who are not playing in a tournament do.  Having formerly been a member of a TPC course where an annual tournament was held, I can tell you when the tour officials come out the week before the course and painted circles around various parts of the course where golfers would get relief. it was a bit surprising.  Many of the places they got relief from would be play it as it lies for all rounds before and after the tournament.

[RickyBobby_PR]

42 minutes ago, Jlike said:

IMO, you should be able to roll it out of the fairway divot, and i would say 98% of golfers who are not playing in a tournament do.  Having formerly been a member of a TPC course where an annual tournament was held, I can tell you when the tour officials come out the week before the course and painted circles around various parts of the course where golfers would get relief. it was a bit surprising.  Many of the places they got relief from would be play it as it lies for all rounds before and after the tournament.

And those who aren’t keeping a handicap can choose to ignore what ever rule they want that allows them to have fun on the course. Once handicaps are involved including just a normal round then they should be paying by the rules (yea that means all of them).

ball on a root and you don’t want to take a chance of hurting yourself or damaging a club then declare unplayable and take the appropriate relief. Ball on some gravel and you don’t want to damage the club. Declare unplayable and take the appropriate relief.

The tour is putting on a show. They are there to entertain their audience. They set the course up so that it looks good on TV and allows for low scoring. So it’s not surprising they mark off certain areas for relief that wouldn’t be there during normal play. This is all within the rules and discretion of the tournament, no different than if the course does it during the year. 
 

Using a tournament setup for a pro event as any justification for changing the rules of golf is somewhat silly imo

[Irish-Assassin]

Talking in general and relief from divots etc, I have a handicap and always play the ball as it lies so not to compromise the legitimacy of my handicap. 
I’ve mentioned I’ve had to practice this shot due to the laziness of people on courses not repairing. Biggest annoyance, especially when you see it with another group or the one you’re playing in. 
On all other rules this one I’m not sure about, local rules at a golf course, most are posted on the back of a score card, all courses are different and have different local rules. 
My question is and hopefully there someone on a handicap committee here, if you use a local rule like some kind of relief from certain conditions etc does the local rule overrule the USGA rule of golf. I play with some people with established handicaps and they use the local rules all the time. Is this allowed per USGA rules especially when having to post all scores? 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 minutes ago, Irish-Assassin said:

My question is and hopefully there someone on a handicap committee here, if you use a local rule like some kind of relief from certain conditions etc does the local rule overrule the USGA rule of golf. I play with some people with established handicaps and they use the local rules all the time. Is this allowed per USGA rules especially when having to post all scores?

When you play you are the committee. If the course doesn’t use mlr e-5 you are allowed to enact it at the beginning of your round. Same with preferred lies. My old group did this after rain because a couple courses don’t drain well so in the fairway it was preferred lies. If you wanted to enact one ball rule for your group you could do that. 
 

So any local rule can be used by your group and still count for handicap.

[Irish-Assassin]

9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

When you play you are the committee. If the course doesn’t use mlr e-5 you are allowed to enact it at the beginning of your round. Same with preferred lies. My old group did this after rain because a couple courses don’t drain well so in the fairway it was preferred lies. If you wanted to enact one ball rule for your group you could do that. 
 

So any local rule can be used by your group and still count for handicap.

Thanks for the update. Appreciated!

“ From Now On, You're The Magic Man And I'm El Diablo."

[climberboy2000]

My first response in seeing this article was to say yes to removing balls from divots, but after reading his article I would agree with him.  It's too "interpretive" and could get messy.  So I'd say, play with the boys, do what you want, play in Men's/tournaments, follow the rules.

Hit em straight this weekend!

[Old Sarge 7997]

Thursday and Friday there are morning waves and afternoon waves that swap so the early guys Thursday get more recovery time that night, by luck of the draw, (which also IMHO should also be a stat kept by the tours so the same folks don't always get assigned to one wave or the other, but as close to evenly split as reasonably possible), but the chances of finding a fairway divot is almost even, taken as an average, comparing who and how many players went out in front of you each day. That said, the folks who barely made the cut get way fewer divots on Saturday morning than the leaders later that day exactly because the barely-mades are out there MAKING them before the leaders even get there shoes on. Likewise on Sunday with whoever fell to the bottom of last page of leader board Saturday evening vs leaders. We hear about "protecting the field" and "you're entitled to the lie you had before your playing partner messed it up" (both balls in same bunker and splash of sand from player 1 covers player 2's ball, etc.), well, why not apply this same logic / line of reasoning to the divot issue?  Obviously, raking a bunker is much faster than waiting for a fairway divot to sprout the seeds in the sand mix and grow into real mowable turf that hides the fact a divot was ever in that spot, but why not roll the ball to the rear of that divot like folks do on the range and treat the divot as the GUR it truly is? And not just for elite am's and pro's but EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE?!?!? Especially where the lie of the fairway landing area is sloped to create a funnel effect that gathers drives into a smaller dispersion pattern, so even if you aim your drive to the edge to avoid Divotville, thereby risking trouble, you still might ending up renting sub-surface parking for a few minutes until your next turn to play!

[Old Sarge 7997]

22 hours ago, Old Sarge 7997 said:

Thursday and Friday there are morning waves and afternoon waves that swap so the early guys Thursday get more recovery time that night, by luck of the draw, (which also IMHO should also be a stat kept by the tours so the same folks don't always get assigned to one wave or the other, but as close to evenly split as reasonably possible), but the chances of finding a fairway divot is almost even, taken as an average, comparing who and how many players went out in front of you each day. That said, the folks who barely made the cut get way fewer divots on Saturday morning than the leaders later that day exactly because the barely-mades are out there MAKING them before the leaders even get there shoes on. Likewise on Sunday with whoever fell to the bottom of last page of leader board Saturday evening vs leaders. We hear about "protecting the field" and "you're entitled to the lie you had before your playing partner messed it up" (both balls in same bunker and splash of sand from player 1 covers player 2's ball, etc.), well, why not apply this same logic / line of reasoning to the divot issue?  Obviously, raking a bunker is much faster than waiting for a fairway divot to sprout the seeds in the sand mix and grow into real mowable turf that hides the fact a divot was ever in that spot, but why not roll the ball to the rear of that divot like folks do on the range and treat the divot as the GUR it truly is? And not just for elite am's and pro's but EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE?!?!? Especially where the lie of the fairway landing area is sloped to create a funnel effect that gathers drives into a smaller dispersion pattern, so even if you aim your drive to the edge to avoid Divotville, thereby risking trouble, you still might ending up renting sub-surface parking for a few minutes until your next turn to play!

oops, "their" shoes on

[Middler]

I think pros should be able to move a drive out of a fairway divot, why randomly penalize a good shot for something outside the players control? I don't buy the argument it could get out of hand, free drops within the rules is exhibit A. I am not faulting Xander Schauffele for his drop in the first round of the Wells Fargo on #8, totally avoiding the hazard (fence, trees, mulch, Shotlink tower) he drove into, all within the rules - but don't tell me that's OK but Rory rolling his ball over in the fairway out of divot could get out of hand. But I realize purists will argue all day long about it - blah, blah, blah.

I did read the article, doesn't change my view at all.

As for me, I play for fun mostly, and as long as everyone in my foursome is playing by the same rules, I don't care if they allow in advance a) roll it out of fairway divots, b) improve your lie in the fairway, c) improve your lie everywhere (sometimes in winter we do), d) move your ball off roots, rocks or poison ivy. We always stipulate on the first tee. And when I am playing in a tournament, if we're all playing strictly by the USGA/R&A rules, I am fine with that. And while my handicap may be tarnished because I improve my lie in fairways occasionally - I'm not losing any sleep over it, nor is any one of the 20-30 guys I play with regularly.

Edited June 2 by Middler

[Cshull09]

I haven’t read the article yet but the muni courses I play are in such bad shape you can never tell the difference a divot and the playing surface. The local men’s league has a “bump if you’re in the fairway rule.”  It’s a loose rule, but basically you get a grip length in any direction to improve your lie, only if you’re in the fairway. If we actually “played it as it lies” the course would literally be unfair. Every third shot would end up as a stinger because you’re trying to hit out of a hole. 
 

Maybe the article will sway my opinion but as of right now I’m firmly in the relief of divot in the fairway group. It’s silly to think that if you pump a 320 yard drive right down the middle, you’ll get punished for that shot while the first guy who created the divot didn’t. I’ve never played a pga course but it seems like the fairways are so pristine it would be relatively easy to distinguish a divot from normal course conditions. I personally dont see it as a slippery slope. Maybe the article will change that!

[DaveP043]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:19 PM, Old Sarge 7997 said:

We hear about "protecting the field" and "you're entitled to the lie you had before your playing partner messed it up" (both balls in same bunker and splash of sand from player 1 covers player 2's ball, etc.), well, why not apply this same logic / line of reasoning to the divot issue? 

The principle is that you're entitled to the lie that you have when your ball comes to rest.  If that lie is subsequently changed, you can (generally) restore it.  You're not entitled to the lie that you might have had an hour ago, or a day ago, or a week ago.  

[Cshull09]

Yesterday, hole 1 (my 10th) of the coyote course at starr pass in Tucson. Life’s too short to try and hit out of this. Especially after I hit one of my best drives of the day. Gladly moved out of the divot and went on with life. 

[GolferXY]

2 hours ago, Cshull09 said:

Yesterday, hole 1 (my 10th) of the coyote course at starr pass in Tucson. Life’s too short to try and hit out of this. Especially after I hit one of my best drives of the day. Gladly moved out of the divot and went on with life. 

Golf is what you make it. Enjoy. Personally, and no slam against those who play differently, I see golf as a reflection of daily life, and as in life, I tackle the problem before me. Fortunately, a mishit out of a divot has a little less impact on me then a mishandled problem would. I see it as a challenge taken in full, rather than skirting the issue.  That said, if I want a perfect lie for every shot, I go to the range.

 

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, GolferXY said:

Golf is what you make it. Enjoy. Personally, and no slam against those who play differently, I see golf as a reflection of daily life, and as in life, I tackle the problem before me. Fortunately, a mishit out of a divot has a little less impact on me then a mishandled problem would. I see it as a challenge taken in full, rather than skirting the issue.  That said, if I want a perfect lie for every shot, I go to the range.

 

... Nothing quite like the challenge of facing what is basically unfair and then doing it well. As we all know golf isn't fair so play it as it lies is a foundational element of the game. That said, what makes it tough to swallow and many have already made these comments but we in the US play a different game than those in the home of golf with many seaside courses that are not manicured like the US as well as having harder firmer fairways that don't produce the deep divots we can get here.

... I also think Europeans are more considerate than those in the states that blast their bad music, drive their carts near or on tee boxes and greens while never repairing a divot, drinking more than prudent, fixing a ball mark or raking a bunker. Last week we played behind 4 young guys dressed for the game doing all the above and what I found most egregious is they were all low index players and watching them walk into a bunker, dig in and hit a shot then inexplicably walk out on a different line and not raking was very disappointing. Thankfully I find it the exception. 

[bens197]

10 minutes ago, chisag said:

. I also think Europeans are more considerate than those in the states that blast their bad music, drive their carts near or on tee boxes and greens while never repairing a divot, drinking more than prudent, fixing a ball mark or raking a bunker. Last week we played behind 4 young guys dressed for the game doing all the above and what I found most egregious is they were all low index players and watching them walk into a bunker, dig in and hit a shot then inexplicably walk out on a different line and not raking was very disappointing. Thankfully I find it the exception. 

I’ve held this belief as well. The European golfer has a higher golf IQ and EQ. 
 

I also agree that this example is the exception. But “grow the game” right?

 

Teaching course etiquette is the largest gap I’ve noticed in recent years. Namely, nuisance golfers who hold the entitled “I paid X to play, I’ll play how I want,” while conveniently ignoring the point that we all paid the same price to play. 
 

It reminds me of traveling at an airport. Some people are the main characters and we’re just existing in their world. 

[Cshull09]

4 hours ago, GolferXY said:

Golf is what you make it. Enjoy. Personally, and no slam against those who play differently, I see golf as a reflection of daily life, and as in life, I tackle the problem before me. Fortunately, a mishit out of a divot has a little less impact on me then a mishandled problem would. I see it as a challenge taken in full, rather than skirting the issue.  That said, if I want a perfect lie for every shot, I go to the range.

 

To each his own. I’m not golfing to tackle all of life’s problems and “prove myself.” I’m golfing to forget about all the problem solving I do all day long. It’s an escape for me. I love your attitude though, I just would rather focus my energy for problem solving on more serious things (health, family, job) than on how to hit out of a divot. 

[GolferXY]

Agreed! 

All this talk of divots would be easily remedied if everyone repairs divots, rakes sand traps, plays with courtesy, and observes etiquette for those who play behind them.

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, Cshull09 said:

 I’m golfing to forget about all the problem solving I do all day long. It’s an escape for me. 

We're all different.  I do look at golf as an escape from my "normal" concerns.  Its not that I have NO concerns on the golf course, its just that they're totally separate from my everyday concerns.

8 hours ago, GolferXY said:

Agreed! 

All this talk of divots would be easily remedied if everyone repairs divots, rakes sand traps, plays with courtesy, and observes etiquette for those who play behind them.

Of course this is mostly true.  On the other hand, I've watched fairway mowers "grab" divots that were actually replaced properly and fling them around.  Even with everyone doing their best, there's always going to be at least some issue with divot holes.