Debate: Golfers Don't Deserve Free Relief from Fairway Divots

[Peaksy68]

I’m a firm believer in play it as it lies. One thing that seems to be ignored by those advocating free relief is it would almost certainly lead to a reduction in people repairing divots. This would be even more likely if preferred lies was the norm. 
 

I actually had to hit out of a divot in my last round. It was in the rough and partially grown in. The ball was sitting down significantly but still playable. Took my medicine and bunted it down the fairway and then holed out from 60 yards for an unlikely birdie after a good bounce. A classic example of good and bad luck balancing out.

Edited May 2 by Peaksy68

[Imp]

On 5/1/2024 at 10:31 PM, ED13 said:

What I do not understand are all the people who have a handicap.  If you are moving your ball then your score and handicap is not correct.

 

They are if MLR E2 or E3 are in effect in most handicapping jurisdictions.

Edited May 8 by Imp

[golffun]

Some say players shouldn't be penalized for hitting the fairway...   When you hit your ball into a bunker, and it's plugged or in a footprint, do you also consider that a penalty.  When your ball goes into a wooded area and it's on or next to a root, do you get relief.   And contrary to that thinking.   When your ball goes in the thick rough and it sits up real nice, should you have to push it down because you don't deserve a good lie?   We were told years ago...  "PLAY THE BALL AS IT LAYS" 

If we were to start allowing relief from a divot in the fairway...  When is the divot no longer a divot?  Now it would be a matter of perspective by the rules' officials.

If this ever becomes a rule change.   It would probably have to treat the fairways the same as we do greens today.   Mark, pick, fix (whatever), replace and play on. In my opinion, play the ball where you find it and take relief where the current rules allow.    thanks  

 

[rjacobs4]

Although the article makes a valid argument, I remain with the free lift and drop crowd.  The drop should be as close to the divot as possible without going back into it.

And I do think a “divot” can be defined.  My definition would be an unrepaired divot where the turf has been mostly or completely removed, i.e., the damaged area has more than 50% dirt showing.

Thus if the divot has been repaired by replacing the divot or filled in with some type of filler often found and used by golf courses, then no lift and play on.  If the “divot” is shallow and mostly just the grass has be tightly scraped by the swing but is till there then play on.  But if a previous player has taken a chunk of sod out of the fairway and your ball ends up in the bottom of that pit, then lift and drop as close to the divot as possible, no nearer the hole.

There are all kinds of rules open to interpretation in golf.  The one above allows golfers relief from others golfers worst bad actions (not repairing divot at all) while preserving most of the “rub of the green” argument (playing from repaired divots or scrapes). 

 

[sman3115]

On 2/5/2024 at 2:47 PM, Stuka44 said:

I'm not going to be drawn into the argument that this leads too.  I believe on a thread a few months ago.  My argument remains the same.    A following golfer especially in a professional tournament where , All professional tours with their pristine, courses, and every real impediment to play is marked as ground under repair before the event, on every hole.  And prior to play commencing all divots have been meticulously filled and manicured by the course staff.  I find it hard to believe that 14 -20 individual volunteers could not be found, with proper instruction from staff, on how to properly fill each divot after it is made.

If the person isn't going to be penalized immediately for not properly filling his divot, or raking a bunker, this is then  not a BAD BREAK, it is a codified advantage to early players over late ones!  If the first player for his first round, has no chance of finding an unfilled divot, or improperly raked bunker, and he as a 0% chance of receiving "a bad break" to find either conditions, then following players should also receive the same 0% chance. However "best" doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be the "best solution" that can be arrived at.

Oh and don't even get me started on the recreational game, where the divots on the courses I play, HAVE NEVER been fixed by the course, and from what I can see by any other golfer for that matter, and many places do not have sand to fill divots with in the carts.  And assuming that my course does rake the bunkers before play, and 100 people play before me and NONE of them rake the bunkers.  The first golfer who goes out and finds bunkers, got a BAD BREAK I GUESS, by hitting into the bunkers, but he find well manicured bunkers, with ZERO imperfections in the raking, and the best lies that can be found.  I am the 101st golfer, I hit the same 3 bunkers as the first golfer, which every other golfer has hit( and again nobody has raked)  Is it just a "bad break" that I am left to play off the surface of the moon, when every golfer before me had incrementally better conditions, when hitting the same bunkers.  It is not!  It is no more surprising, or unexpected,  than golfers ending up behind tv towers, or port a potties, or in some spectators lawn chair.  

The fact that my moon scenario, albeit very far fetched is possible, means that it is an  advantage for some, and a disadvantage for others, which should be addressed as best as possible, for professional and recreational play.    It is not a bad break.  A bad break would be something that happens, and nobody, would have expected it.  Leaving 150 unfilled divots in the fairway for the last guy, is indifference to a flawed situation, and the predictable potential disadvantage to the last guy of the day, that the first guy of the day was not in any way subject to.  That is NOT a BAD BREAK!

This is such a good argument.  And coming from someone who is still bitter that I had to play out of a monster divot in a greenside bunker on 11 last night that cost me a hole in my match I agree with you 100%.  Thank you for nicely raking where you were standing, oh BTW you are also supposed to rake where you dug your ball out and your footprints walking into the bunker.

Honestly this all stems from what I've argued in other threads is these people who think everyone needs to play by the same exact rules and there cannot be different variations of rules based on the level of competition.  The general public does not have the same level of course maintenance a Tour stop or a high-end country club does.  Divots go unrepaired, bunkers go ungroomed or even sans-sand.... obvious GIR doesn't get marked, etc.  You are lucky if the grounds crew can keep up with mowing and watering.  Let's get real, its barely the same game.  Take it out of the divot.

[MikeB82]

Divots are not the "natural" condition of the golf course, they are created by other golfers. Golf is a game of skill, not luck (although I'll admit that luck does play a part with both lucky and unlucky bounces). A good shot shouldn't be penalized by having the bad luck to end up in a divot in the fairway, especially one that the jerk that made it didn't fill in.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, golffun said:

Some say players shouldn't be penalized for hitting the fairway...   When you hit your ball into a bunker, and it's plugged or in a footprint, do you also consider that a penalty.  When your ball goes into a wooded area and it's on or next to a root, do you get relief.   And contrary to that thinking.   When your ball goes in the thick rough and it sits up real nice, should you have to push it down because you don't deserve a good lie?   We were told years ago...  "PLAY THE BALL AS IT LAYS" 

If we were to start allowing relief from a divot in the fairway...  When is the divot no longer a divot?  Now it would be a matter of perspective by the rules' officials.

If this ever becomes a rule change.   It would probably have to treat the fairways the same as we do greens today.   Mark, pick, fix (whatever), replace and play on. In my opinion, play the ball where you find it and take relief where the current rules allow.    thanks  

 

Great points. People want to accept The good bounces but not the bad ones and want free relief from them. We read many talking about free drops from a tree root to not damage their club because they don’t get them for free or to avoid injury’s rather than use the rules of golf and take an unplayable. Why? It affects the score by taking a penalty. They want relief from rocky parts of the course to protect their club, rather than take an unplayable.

Those who aren’t keeping an official handicap can do whatever they want. If they want free relief from any imperfection in the course go for it. Or those who are keeping a handicap and don’t play in any tournaments can choose to use the rules of golf and play preferred lies and take relief from the divot. 

To change the foundation of golf and play it as it lies is silly. You can’t have the good without the bad. Rub of the green 

[DaveP043]

On 5/8/2024 at 2:42 PM, Imp said:

They are if MLR E2 or E3 are in effect in most handicapping jurisdictions.

I wouldn't say that these Local Rules are in effect in "most" jurisdictions, I simply don't know, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.  E-2 and E-3 are specifically intended to be used sparingly, and in my experience that's how its used in my region.

39 minutes ago, MikeB82 said:

Divots are not the "natural" condition of the golf course, they are created by other golfers. Golf is a game of skill, not luck (although I'll admit that luck does play a part with both lucky and unlucky bounces). A good shot shouldn't be penalized by having the bad luck to end up in a divot in the fairway, especially one that the jerk that made it didn't fill in.

The "luck" argument again.  You want to negate bad luck, but have no problem accepting good luck.  Or reading closer, maybe you accept some kinds of bad luck, but not others.  That's just not golf, in my opinion.  And remember, divots pre-date even the first Rules of Golf.

[Dan Underwood]

Agree and disagree,  if a divot has been replaced/ filled no, even if it wasn't done great. Not stamped down the divot high or low,  no.  But if someone didn't make an attempt and just leaves a dirt hole yes.  But I think if ediquit was followed no.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

54 minutes ago, Dan Underwood said:

Agree and disagree,  if a divot has been replaced/ filled no, even if it wasn't done great. Not stamped down the divot high or low,  no.  But if someone didn't make an attempt and just leaves a dirt hole yes.  But I think if ediquit was followed no.  

When is the divot that can be dropped from no longer allowed to be dropped from? 
 

is it different for Bermuda vs bent? 

Edited May 10 by RickyBobby_PR

[Beakbryce]

GUR.

Who in the world was the first person to say "golf isn't fair". So what, we all "suck it up buttercup"! Poppycock!

I read the article. First off, the author assumes golfers are pretty much the cheating, thieving, unscrupulous bunch of scoundrels we really believe every other golfer is. Really? I don't believe that is the ethos the "game" is trying to project.

The dual premise that golf is unfair and that a DIVOT is to hard to determine is crap.

It ISN'T hard to determine a ball is in a divot. The change in rule would be as simple as calling over your playing competitor and getting an opinion, just as we do for cut balls or a ball on or off the green, or any other problem that could affect the field. Even the pro's are allowed to call in a separate ref if they doubt the first one. Then they play on. So how hard could this be?

I play different courses with different greens keeper philosophy. The military course I play plugs the fairways and greens early in the day and doesn't close at all. The courses I play in my retirement community shut down for 3 weeks so the plugged areas can be groomed etc.

Guess which course I would rather play? Guess what course you can only play?

So, would you or would you not roll your ball on a plugged fairway or would you rather have no golf at all? I don't see the difference from playing on plugged fairways and the minefield of untouched divots in fairways. I play early, usual in the first 4 groups, and we empty a divot bottle on each 9. Sometimes on 1 hole! There are way to many entitled people playing golf now. If this is growing the game having all these dimwit slackers allowed on the course, I would rather go back to a game that isn't growing.

C'mon man, this stuff is common sense.

If we were still a bunch of gentlemen golfers willing to call penalties on our self, there would be no argument regarding playing out of a divot after a perfectly hit ball to anywhere in the fairway.

But apparently we are not, so you get these kinds of articles.

 

 

Edited May 10 by Beakbryce

[Intrepidgolfer]

For me this issue isn’t so much about fairness to the golfer as a middle ground based on the variability of groundskeeper care. I have been a member of country clubs in Los Angeles and Atlanta but now I live in Alaska. Some courses just don’t have the budget to fix divots. Some courses are played by duffers who are either unaware of the etiquette, or better golfers who dismiss the etiquette. Many golfers here play golf in the most recreational of ways, and only 2-3 times a season. Why should my GHIN be disadvantaged simply because I live someplace that can’t keep up with the volume of players?  I liken it to an approach shot landing in a ball mark on the green. Who among us would force someone who marked and cleaned their ball to put their ball back in the same place? We allow them to fix the ball mark first. I don’t see why bad luck on the green can’t be treated like bad luck in the fairway. 

Edited May 10 by Intrepidgolfer
Misspelling

[RickyBobby_PR]

58 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

It ISN'T hard to determine a ball is in a divot. The change in rule would be as simple as calling over your playing competitor and getting an opinion, just as we do for cut balls or a ball on or off the green, or any other problem that could affect the field. Even the pro's are allowed to call in a separate ref if they doubt the first one. Then they play on. So how hard could this be?

So write a rule that clearly defines what a divot is, when it’s not longer a divot so that every golfer and rules official has the same interpretation of when relief is no longer allowed. And that it can be applied in all grass types equally and there’s no doubt in anyone’s mind that relief is allowed from the imperfection.

It’s pretty hard to define so everyone is on the same page. 

[Dan Underwood]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

When is the divot that can be dropped from no longer allowed to be dropped from? 
 

is it different for Bermuda vs bent? 

I think that it should be treated like a plugged ball when it comes to it.  If the ball is under the natural surface in a fairway mark and drop.  If it was filled and no longer under the normal surface no matter how bad the repair/replacement was no.  That being said this all comes down to a comp if you are playing with friends whatever rules y'all are playing by is up to you.  

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Beakbryce said:

It ISN'T hard to determine a ball is in a divot. The change in rule would be as simple as calling over your playing competitor and getting an opinion, just as we do for cut balls or a ball on or off the green, or any other problem that could affect the field. Even the pro's are allowed to call in a separate ref if they doubt the first one. Then they play on. So how hard could this be?

A cut or cracked ball has a specific criteria, a ball on or off the green has a specific definition.  Pros call in Referees because they want official cover for whatever they end up doing.  The pros are allowed to ASK for a second opinion, but they don't have a "right" for that.  But again, everything you cite has some specifically defined criteria.  Even if you accept divot relief as appropriate, you still need to write a definition of a divot that can be consistently interpreted by players and officials both.

[short fat Scotsman]

My My, all you poor victims of life.  Golf is played in an(almost) natural situation.  Lies are going to vary.  Choice is between accepting 'ball as it lies' and allowing lift, and place, for every shot.  If you feel so hard done by any imperfection on the course, why  not just play simulator golf off a mat (if you need the suntan, play outside into a net). Otherwise, play golf as it was designed to be played, 'as the ball lies'. Golf now is so much easier than it was 40 years ago (better managed courses, cavity back clubs, hybrids, enormous drivers, excellent balls, GPS and range finders, comfortable shoes......the list goes on.  Stop complaining and enjoy the game and the surroundings.

 

[domill]

I believe players at public courses should be able to move the ball out of a divot because the divots are not replaced,and the conditioned are terrible. If you are playing some kind of tournament then all the rules apply.

[Beakbryce]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So write a rule that clearly defines what a divot is, when it’s not longer a divot so that every golfer and rules official has the same interpretation of when relief is no longer allowed. And that it can be applied in all grass types equally and there’s no doubt in anyone’s mind that relief is allowed from the imperfection.

It’s pretty hard to define so everyone is on the same page. 

As ever on this forum there are times when folk disagree.

There are so many holes in the rule book that a definition of a divot is not required. How many times have you seen rulings that depended on the "judgement of the player". See this all the time on the tour where something may or may not be in the way of the player as a TMO. Reference yesterday's ruling on how to get out of a tree/bush filled area.  Or when they are butt up to a drain as to whether they feel they would hit it in the routine delivery of the club for a golf shot. Or literally Tiger's movable obstruction. 

Interpretations for this kind of judgement call ended in a hundreds of page supplement to the rule book at one time. Now, we rely on player judgement and the fact that as a rule, we believe players aren't going to cheat. The mythos of golf is people play by the rules and don't stretch them. That is why there is a thunderous castigation on social media every time it is perceived there is an incorrect drop or other questionable decision by the golfer involved.   

One simply cannot cover the numerous permutations for all scenarios to reliably state a rule for divots. This is also not required for other similar rules necessitating a drop.           

The rules already agree with this as noted below:

Under Rules 1.3b2

Accepting Player’s “Reasonable Judgment” in Determining a Location When Applying the Rules.

Many Rules require a player to determine a spot, point, line, edge, area or other location under the Rules, such as:

Estimating where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area,

Estimating or measuring when dropping or placing a ball in taking relief, or

Replacing a ball on its original spot (whether the spot is known or estimated).

Determining the area of the course where the ball lies, including whether the ball lies on the course, or

Determining whether the ball touches or is in or on an abnormal course condition.

Such determinations about location need to be made promptly and with care but often cannot be precise.

So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information.

If a player becomes aware of a wrong determination before the stroke is made, it must be corrected (see Rule 14.5).

 

As such, a line only need to be added in the line regarding abnormal course conditions to read "Determining whether the ball touches or is in or on an abnormal course condition or in a divot".

This practically writes itself. One already defined abnormal course condition is an animal hole. Do you require what actually constitutes an animal hole? Is there a strict definition in the rule book? I can't find it. I think it is left up to the judgement of a player. The course I learned golf on had a bunch of ground squirrels. The little devils were everywhere. If any kind of hole interfered with a ball, it was automatically deemed a ground squirrel hole because there were so many of them. Was it really? Who knows.

I submit that a divot is a lot more recognizable than an animal hole.

 

                    

 

[Dweed]

I guess for me it's whatever floats your boat. The group you're playing with can decide and go have some fun. My biggest concern is when someone's ball settles in a divot, especially one not filled, is the act of trying to hit harder and thus causing additional damage. The Grrrr! factor is almost as bad as when I find a large divot on the green. Someone missed the putt and took it out on the surface.

[Beakbryce]

7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

A cut or cracked ball has a specific criteria, a ball on or off the green has a specific definition.  Pros call in Referees because they want official cover for whatever they end up doing.  The pros are allowed to ASK for a second opinion, but they don't have a "right" for that.  But again, everything you cite has some specifically defined criteria.  Even if you accept divot relief as appropriate, you still need to write a definition of a divot that can be consistently interpreted by players and officials both.

Actually, a cut ball doesn't have a specific definition. For instance, in the ball rule, there is an indication what a cut can't be: "scratched or scraped or its paint is only damaged or discolored," but an actual definition of what constitutes a cut is not there. Why, because common sense defines a cut. It's easier to say what isn't than what is. As is the same for instance, for abnormal course condition regarding animal holes. I suppose one needs to be familiar with what animals in a given area might be making holes and what those holes look like. There is lots of stuff that isn't defined down to the nanometer because we rely on player judgement.

The rules already agree with this as noted below:

Under Rules 1.3b2

Accepting Player’s “Reasonable Judgment” in Determining a Location When Applying the Rules.

Many Rules require a player to determine a spot, point, line, edge, area or other location under the Rules, such as:

Estimating where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area,

Estimating or measuring when dropping or placing a ball in taking relief, or

Replacing a ball on its original spot (whether the spot is known or estimated).

Determining the area of the course where the ball lies, including whether the ball lies on the course, or

Determining whether the ball touches or is in or on an abnormal course condition.

Such determinations about location need to be made promptly and with care but often cannot be precise.

So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information.

If a player becomes aware of a wrong determination before the stroke is made, it must be corrected (see Rule 14.5).

But lets say a requirement for a definition of a divot is required. I can go with this if necessary. I mean, I am not wedded to just saying a divot if there is this much angst about what constitutes a divot, although I asked my wife to describe a divot and she nailed it.

But of course our rule makers would need to make this hard so:

A divot for purpose of relief is defined as an abnormal course condition in the closely mown areas of the playing area that has been caused by another players swing such that there is a hole in the ground that materially differs from the course condition of the surrounding area within 1 club length of the player made hole in question. It must constitute an actual hole and may not simply be brushed grass.

That even sounds like the excessive wording they put in the rules now.

So if there is a hole, clearly made by a club, and surrounding it is beautifully manicured fairway grass, I think it's pretty obvious that it's a divot. If this isn't obvious to others, then I am glad I don't play them for money. I mean, if you are a dedicated and caring golfer concerned with filling your divots, and you are looking at where your club just went through the ground and you feel it requires sand, then you have just determined for yourself what a divot is.

Please don't write how is one to know if a player actually made the hole, because I sure as hell didn't see the animal that made that hole my ball is lying in going about making it either!

Of course, the absurd question is what constitutes a hole? Absurd yes because an animal hole isn't defined either! But if I have missed that, it would be materially the same. But if this is also required it would simply be where any portion of the ball as found in an abnormal condition as described above that is lower than the surrounding closely mown area. Even if it is a bloody dimple lower.

Again, we would rely on player judgement which is defined by the rules as noted above. 

Many believe the golf rules are black and white or wish them to be, but they aren't. They are an amazing color of grey. And forever will be. The USGA & R&A tried to write down decisions regarding every little facet of the rules and gave up in favor of player judgement relying on integrity.

 

As an aside, if I hadn't seen US Opens determined by a divot, I wouldn't give a hoot about this subject. As with so many other things in life, I don't materially care about the rules of golf in my everyday play. I don't play for money and I certainly don't care that golf is touted as a metaphor for life and life lessons about following the rules. For some of us it's just a fun sport in fresh air.

and makes for an interesting discussion area!

Edited May 11 by Beakbryce

[FrogginBullfish]

A tad surprised this debate is still going. I can't say I mind either way whether a rule is implemented giving free relief or if one isn't. In all my years of playing golf I think I've been in a divot in the fairway maybe a handful of times and no I'm not playing some fancy private course, mostly just regular muni type courses. I don't expect to gain much or lose much either way on this topic.

[GolferXY]

Golf was invented by a bunch of Scotsmen strolling through the heather.  The concept of play it as it lies is as old as the game itself because playing conditions were rough, courses were carved out of the gorse with rakes, hoes and shovels.  Even a good lie was a bad lie, or so I'm led to believe.

Now even the poorer courses are designed, mowed, maintained.  Maybe one would think that there should be an expectation of a good lie when you hit that centercut drive. That just isn't the game.  Hidden hazards, hitting through the fairway into a patch of brush, swales, hardpan, etc. happen even on the best shots even on the best maintained courses.  I like the challenge of hitting out of a divot.  It wasn't always that way!  But knowing that golf will try men's souls, I still come back again and again.

If I wanted a perfect lie on every shot, I'd haunt the local Top Golf or similar with mats to hit off of.  Gimme the dirt and grass and hazards and hanging lies.  Give me trees and mud and hard sand bunkers.  Play it as it lies, my flag flies high!  Just fix your divots guys.

[GolferXY]

On 2/2/2024 at 12:45 PM, funkyjudge said:

Generally, I am all for “playing the ball as it lies”, including from fairway divots, which I have done hundreds of times over my 39 years of playing golf. However, in some instances, I have encountered what are far from normal “divots”, both in the fairway and in the rough. These pits make it virtually impossible to make any kind of even barely reasonable contact. I ended up in one of these deep pits in a fairway in my tournament yesterday, and only about 1/3 to 1/2 of my ball was above the surface of the surrounding fairway. This was not your typical “dollar bill” or “ beaver pelt” divot, just a small pit slightly larger than a golf ball. I had no option but to hit down VERY HARD with a lofted wedge (I used my 50* Cobra Snakebite wedge because it’s versatile sole design with the center notch made it a better choice from that lie). Hitting the ball really hard still only enabled me to advance my ball about 40 yards.

I know that it would probably be very difficult to define this type of unusual manmade condition, but if it could be done I think that there should be an exception made to allow golfers to take a free drop from such conditions. Maybe something along the lines of an “undue or unusual manmade damage” exception to playing the ball as it lies.

For the record, the only way I could imagine anyone making a divot like the one I encountered yesterday and described above would be from hitting severely down on the ball and burying the clubhead in the soft fairway turf. I encountered far too many unrepaired fairway divots at that course, along with several that were repaired very poorly. I took a handful of fairway divots myself during my round, but repaired all of them carefully and fully.

Sounds like maybe someone slammed their club in frustration?

[GolferXY]

On 2/2/2024 at 11:57 AM, VTK said:

The game is hard enough. You shouldn't get a penalty when hitting a drive into the middle of the fairway. 

The game is not merely hard.  It is diabolical!  I swear it was invented just so we could laugh at each other over a shot of whiskey.

Edited May 11 by GolferXY

[GolferXY]

On 2/5/2024 at 7:25 PM, Another Steve said:

I didn’t read all of the responses. I have but one comment/argument FOR relief from a divot.

If said  fairway “divot”  were on the tee box of a par 3 and you would not be willing drop your ball into it to tee off then why should you have that penalty in the fairway?  We don’t play in sheep pastures anymore (well yeah, some courses DO resemble pastures, but come on now…)

Tee boxes.  Talk about unfair!  If I had a magic wand I would require that all tee boxes presented the perfect lie - flat, no divots, good footing not hampered by others divots [or craters in many cases].  

On 2/4/2024 at 12:59 PM, Hook DeLoft said:

My feeling is that golf, like life, isn't fair.  If you want to know how good you are, play by the rules.  If you are in an official competition, play by the rules.  On the other hand, for casual rounds with friends, I agree with the author that you can play anyway you want.  It's your time and money. 

Yep

[GolferXY]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:29 AM, Stuka44 said:

This is a valid point.  I can only believe that play it as it lies began because a good lie, was the exception to the rule, and those were the breaks back then.  However now the courses on which the pros play it as it lies, have absolutely no comparison to the conditions on which a vast majority of us are expected to play it as it lies.  They pile on by penalizing us further with divots, and unraked bunkers.  Golf, golfers, and the rule makers, need to dispense with the fantasy that we are playing the same game as professionals.

The rules of Golf are not designed for tour professionals, they're created for all golfers regardless of ability, status, competition.  That said, I play it as it lies, but would nave no heartburn if the USGA were to change the rules.  I try to play by the rules as written - try, because I don't presume to be an expert.  Until that time, I hit out of divots and like it!  It's just another chance to embarrass myself and get a laugh out of my friends!

[GolferXY]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:23 AM, downlowkey said:

I think the answer to this imperfect turf dilemma is simple.

All amateur golfers should only be allowed to attempt the number of regulation tee-to-green strokes for a hole’s par designation, after which, you will retrieve your ball and place it ever so gently in the pre-marked center of each green. From there a maximum of two putts will be recorded, so don’t go leaving the first one short. Par will subsequently be the worst possible score recorded and no one will ever again be held to account for the randomness of playing outdoors on a natural surface. After all, regular tests of one’s grit are entirely overrated and there is absolutely zero research that suggests it pays dividends in all areas of a person’s life outside of golf, especially not when the practice is encountered during an individual’s formative years. I don’t think golf would be an less rewarding or meaningful under this system.

Before you go claiming that the suggestion outlined above would be an absurdly hollow shell of the game, I’d like you to first own the reality that almost every one of you that records net scores in either sanctioned tournaments or friendly matches is already engaging in an entirely delusional notion. As someone on the perpetually giving end of the stroke spectrum, I’ll be eternally grateful that we can finally abolish the handicap system and will no longer need to practice extricating myself from all manner of unenviable scenarios (ie - fried eggs, opposite hand, divots, etc.) just to get edged out again by an 18 hcp who took one less putt than usual.

So tee it up everywhere for all I care and be sure to grease up that driver face while you’re at it, but from now on, you and me only play straight up. Seeing as individual perceptions of fairness is at the heart of the divot debate, no more net scoring sounds pretty fair, right? 

Exactly!  And while we're at it, let's make alley bumpers in bowling the standard!  Nope, I don't mean it.  I don't bowl either. 

[GolferXY]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:25 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

And all those rules are clearly defined and understood by everyone playing. There are punishable rules in golf for breaking the rules. The same would apply if someone was cheating on what is relief from a divot if it was actually defined. But it can’t be defined so until that happens the concept of oaky it as it lies remains in effect.

If someone not keeping a handicap wants to take relief from a divot, roll their ball from a tree root, gravel, an uneven lie, breakfast balls or whatever other rules they want to create then great they can do that, no harm. If someone keeping an unofficial handicap wants to do the same cool go for it. The expectation for those keeping a handicap or playing in a tournament play under the same rules and understanding. One group can’t give relief from a divot that everyone in the group agrees to while in another group in the same tournament then it’s a problem and the field isn’t protected 

There it is.  Well said.

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

Actually, a cut ball doesn't have a specific definition. For instance, in the ball rule, there is an indication what a cut can't be: "scratched or scraped or its paint is only damaged or discolored," but an actual definition of what constitutes a cut is not there.

True, in this case they've defined that one type of damage is severe enough to warrant relief, another type is not.  There's a reasonably clear line.  There are lots and lots of rules which utilize words in their normal usage, where no "golf-specific" definition is required, this is one of them.

12 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

Accepting Player’s “Reasonable Judgment” in Determining a Location When Applying the Rules.

Many Rules require a player to determine a spot, point, line, edge, area or other location under the Rules, such as:

Estimating where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area,

Estimating or measuring when dropping or placing a ball in taking relief, or

Replacing a ball on its original spot (whether the spot is known or estimated).

Determining the area of the course where the ball lies, including whether the ball lies on the course, or

Determining whether the ball touches or is in or on an abnormal course condition.

A fine list of LOCATIONS where a Player's judgement is respected.  Yet if you want Penalty Area Relief, you must KNOW or be VIRTUALLY CERTAIN the ball is in a Penalty Area.  That requirement is WAY beyond "reasonable judgement".  In taking relief, there are very specific limitations in whether relief is allowed or not.  Area of the course?  There are again very specific definitions regarding that determination, clear guidelines for the player to use.  Touching a PA boundary, completely beyond an OB line, touching the grass of the putting green, touching sand in a bunker, etc.  These aren't nebulous, there are very specific "lines".

12 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

A divot for purpose of relief is defined as an abnormal course condition in the closely mown areas of the playing area that has been caused by another players swing such that there is a hole in the ground that materially differs from the course condition of the surrounding area within 1 club length of the player made hole in question. It must constitute an actual hole and may not simply be brushed grass.

Caused by another player's swing, or stroke?  What about a shallow divot in a bare spot of the fairway, relief?  And how much healing has to occur before relief is not available?  Sand filled?  Divot replaced poorly?  How about if 6 square inches of underlying soil are visible? Or only 2 square inches?  Again, its really unworkable.

[The 300 year old golfer]

The question then becomes when is a divot no longer a divot. It is clear that an unfilled divot is a divot. It is clear that a divot filled in with sand is a divot. Naturally, of course, grass grows over the old divot/divot filled with sand. So when is it no longer a divot. Playing in a tournament one time I had an opponent drop his ball from the Fairway. I looked and there was a small depression. I asked him why he dropped. He said it was a French drain. I looked at it. There was no gravel only grass. He used his wedge to dig through the grass and there was gravel underneath. I pointed out that the grass had completely overgrown the gravel. He said it was still a French drain because of the gravel and was entitled to a drop. If you allow a drop from a divot  the same thing will happen. A ball will come to rest  in a small depression in the fairway and that will be deemed a divot underneath there is some sand. Anytime you do not like your lie. You will simply say it is an old divot. Since the grass has overgrown it, how will anyone prove that it is not. The simplest way is to simply not allow any relief. Golf has always had its variability, including wind, bad, bounces, rain, etc.