Thinking about going with clones

[ZenGolfer]

If you buy from a respectable component company your chances are reasonable. As long as you can weigh the heads before the assembly and measure for loft and lie your chances get better. Such measures are fairly accessible and if you can inspect and measure the heads at the store your chances get better provided you know how to measure. I just feel that the time and trouble you go through doing these measures is not necessarily worth the savings, if any.

You speak like no one has ever bought a set of namebrand clubs where the lofts, lies or swingweights were off.

[Kanoito]

 

There was a thread either here on in another forum in which a fake which looked exactly the same on the outside was different on the inside. Welding was sloppy, the ICT was not there. I could assume the same for a clone. To cut corners maybe a different/cheaper welding technique was employed or the internal VFT is not present.

 

 

I think I know that picture, if I remember correctly, it was a TM counterfeit.

Yes, if the clones go for a cheaper manufacturing process, that could happen.

But what if they use the same process as the big OEMs and the only thing that makes them cheaper is not using their brand?

 

Lower cost doesn't automatically mean cheaper process, it could just mean no need to pay millions of endorsement deals.

[xxio]

Clone companies could easily erase those doubts by paraphrasing the technological marketing jargon of the OEM. Instead they choose to use "similar to". Maybe they are cost cutting on words as well.

[Tyk]

As I said, a clone could very well be outstanding quality, superior even to the OEM club it is copying. If it were, how would you or anyone else know? Would it be because they intentionally got it right after trying really hard to make a quality imitation? Or did you just get lucky? Was it one club, or a set, or a manufacturing lot, or is that clone company building great stuff always?

 

I'd listen to a clone company that said something like "these look just like Callaway RZRXXXR whatevers but we got rid of that ugly badge and made the top line a bit thinner and ground off the leading edge a bit because we think that makes for a better golf club, then we had the same foundry that cast theirs do ours at half the price!" But that isn't what I usually see. I usually see just a copy of unknown quality and design from a company with an unknown reputation offering unknown warranty and support.

[ZenGolfer]

I think I know that picture, if I remember correctly, it was a TM counterfeit.

Yes, if the clones go for a cheaper manufacturing process, that could happen.

But what if they use the same process as the big OEMs and the only thing that makes them cheaper is not using their brand?

 

Lower cost doesn't automatically mean cheaper process, it could just mean no need to pay millions of endorsement deals.

Thank you. My point exactly.

[Shambles]

You speak like no one has ever bought a set of namebrand clubs where the lofts, lies or swingweights were off.

 

 

It's not impossible, just not within my personal experience. I have many times seen people make mistakes when measuring loft and lie, most often by not setting the club properly. I've also seen people get erroneous readings on freqs from failing to set and tighten the shafts properly. There are also those people who demand standards that are impractical for mass marketed products but still require penny arcade prices, and then gleefully complain thunderously when they can find something to complain about. This world we live in is populated by many people who have many different values to their lifestyle.

 

 

Shambles

[xxio]

I think I know that picture, if I remember correctly, it was a TM counterfeit.

Yes, if the clones go for a cheaper manufacturing process, that could happen.

But what if they use the same process as the big OEMs and the only thing that makes them cheaper is not using their brand?

 

Lower cost doesn't automatically mean cheaper process, it could just mean no need to pay millions of endorsement deals.

 

 

Great which specific clone companies use the same process as the OEM, do they tell you that they do so? I'll go get one now.

[xxio]

I don't know that I'd automatically assume that clones are poor quality. I don't know, cuz I've never owned one, however Pinemeadow is on the racks at Dunham's and I'd assume that if they were garbage or had a lot of complaints or returns, Dunham's wouldn't handle them.

 

I had two consecutive F11s snap on me. Granted, I imagine that the mainstream OEMs woud overall have better quality, at least I'd hope so simply from a monetary standpoint, yet if the "clones" were garbage, there would not be a viable market and the stores would not carry them.

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

 

 

You are correct we cannot assume low quality. We cannot even assume that they do not have the same tech. Why? because they don't tell us anything. Unfortunately the OEMs market their tech, the clone companies don't. So we don't know anything except that they look the same on the outside.

 

Like I mentioned I bought X12 clones before. All over the place. We are not talking +/-1 loft or +/-3 grams headweight which is "acceptable" tolerances based on GS components. I also had that Bang clone that I was able to be asked to have specific specs.

[ZenGolfer]

I also had that Bang clone that I was able to be asked to have specific specs.

Same with Pinemeadow. You can have the clubs built to whatever specs you want.

[MattF]

 

 

Like I mentioned I bought X12 clones before. All over the place. We are not talking +/-1 loft or +/-3 grams headweight which is "acceptable" tolerances based on GS components. I also had that Bang clone that I was able to be asked to have specific specs.

 

Your answer is right there. The X12 look a likes were clones. Bang is a component company, apples and oranges.

 

Clones are made to look like, as close as possible, to an OEM club. Components are made to the company's design and manufacturing specs and if they happen to be similar to an OEM club that is because they all happen to look like each other.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people lump the two together, so component companies get an unfair wrap most of the time.

[Kanoito]

Great which specific clone companies use the same process as the OEM, do they tell you that they do so? I'll go get one now.

 

But they don't tell you they don't either, do they?

 

All I'm saying is, be it a clone or a big OEM, when we buy their product, we take their word for it.

The only difference is, big OEMs have more $$$ to spread "their word".

 

For all we know, it could be the other way around. Clones using the good process and charging you the right amount while OEMs use a inferior process but still charge you 10 times more to rip you off.

 

A guy I play golf with in Taiwan knows the owner of one of these foundries (before all the productions were moved to China). I'll see if I can get some inside info.

[xxio]

Your answer is right there. The X12 look a likes were clones. Bang is a component company, apples and oranges.

 

Clones are made to look like, as close as possible, to an OEM club. Components are made to the company's design and manufacturing specs and if they happen to be similar to an OEM club that is because they all happen to look like each other.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people lump the two together, so component companies get an unfair wrap most of the time.

 

 

I have mentioned in earlier posts which specific Bang product I am talking about, even Steve Almo himself acknowledged (with a tinge of regret) that specific driver (head) was "clonish". If you google it for images you will be able to see that it was indeed "similar" to a OEM product. I know the site I had bought it off mentioned "similar to". I don't know if that marketing blurb was approved by Bang/Almo though.

[xxio]

But they don't tell you they don't either, do they?

 

All I'm saying is, be it a clone or a big OEM, when we buy their product, we take their word for it.

The only difference is, big OEMs have more $$$ to spread "their word".

 

For all we know, it could be the other way around. Clones using the good process and charging you the right amount while OEMs use a inferior process but still charge you 10 times more to rip you off.

 

A guy I play golf with in Taiwan knows the owner of one of these foundries (before all the productions were moved to China). I'll see if I can get some inside info.

 

 

My point exactly, Clones don't.

 

OEMs DO. Of course we have to take their word for it. I would like to think they would not risk their reputation and that consumer watchdogs would be on their case if TM claims ICT but when you open a head the inside is as flat as a pancake. Or claims that the heads are chemically milled or plasma welded or some other process yet when they are opened they are obviuosly not (like that TM fake).

 

Yes for all we know it could be the other way around, clones use superior processes. The reality is is we don't. We just know that the OEM advertises they do/use this on their product. Clones don't.

 

TYK has mentioned it, if I were a clone and had similar technology (or even superior) I would market that as well because it would further reinforce that my product not only looks similar but performs similar yet is more "value for money".

 

I have friends who thought of making their own component line (with the Philippine flag on the sole). They went to China and took a look at product and process. That is how I know that you can have open designs that look the same on the outside but then have the options not to plasma weld, chemically mill, not have face technology, or even choose your range of tolerances. It makes a huge difference in pricing when you are talking $2 per head for a certain technology. Unless the guy who chose the options tells you what he did choose and what he did not, two products can be similar on the outside and yet be totally different on the inside.

 

To add: I don't know how "true to their word" foundries are but my friend who visited China was told that when an OEM commits to an order with all the trimmings, the same foundry cannot make that exact same driver (meaning all internal goodies as well) for any other company. He was told there are ways around it though, either lessen the technology (or I guess add more) or have another foundry do that product all together. The issue with having another foundry would be getting the exact same casting results consistently.

 

Maybe some clones are exactly like the similar to OEM product. My point is they should tell us.

[xxio]

Same with Pinemeadow. You can have the clubs built to whatever specs you want.

 

 

That is great customer service. I applaud them for that.

 

I admit my digression from the original topic when I mentioned being able to get specifically measured products. For me the main issue is the similarity, especially internal technology.

 

Maybe you can ask their customer service if their "similar to" products have the same internal technology. The "similar to" TM MWT we can see from the outside, but what about ICT or the internal weight positioning (where and how much weigh)

 

If you have found a clone that works for you. I congratulate you. Nothing is more satisfying than finding spectacular performance at an even more spectacular price. I just saying finding that great club in a clone will be harder than finding it in an OEM..... Demo days, reviews, availability, shaft options, etc.

 

I guess I could take a shot at going thru 3-4 clones at lower prices hoping to get lucky on the first or going to a OEM demo day/usually where they do fittings as well.

[Kanoito]

Point taken xxio!

But you are right, things go could both ways. And those are definitely interesting facts about the foundries in China.

I'll see if I can contact the guy in Taiwan for more info. I'm flying there in December.

[ZenGolfer]

My point exactly, Clones don't.

 

OEMs DO. Of course we have to take their word for it. I would like to think they would not risk their reputation and that consumer watchdogs would be on their case if TM claims ICT but when you open a head the inside is as flat as a pancake. Or claims that the heads are chemically milled or plasma welded or some other process yet when they are opened they are obviuosly not (like that TM fake).

 

Yes for all we know it could be the other way around, clones use superior processes. The reality is is we don't. We just know that the OEM advertises they do/use this on their product. Clones don't.

 

TYK has mentioned it, if I were a clone and had similar technology (or even superior) I would market that as well because it would further reinforce that my product not only looks similar but performs similar yet is more "value for money".

 

I have friends who thought of making their own component line (with the Philippine flag on the sole). They went to China and took a look at product and process. That is how I know that you can have open designs that look the same on the outside but then have the options not to plasma weld, chemically mill, not have face technology, or even choose your range of tolerances. It makes a huge difference in pricing when you are talking $2 per head for a certain technology. Unless the guy who chose the options tells you what he did choose and what he did not, two products can be similar on the outside and yet be totally different on the inside.

 

To add: I don't know how "true to their word" foundries are but my friend who visited China was told that when an OEM commits to an order with all the trimmings, the same foundry cannot make that exact same driver (meaning all internal goodies as well) for any other company. He was told there are ways around it though, either lessen the technology (or I guess add more) or have another foundry do that product all together. The issue with having another foundry would be getting the exact same casting results consistently.

 

Maybe some clones are exactly like the similar to OEM product. My point is they should tell us.

The fact that Pinemeadow offers a 30-day playability guarantee, a 1-year warranty and allows customers to post comments on their site leads me to believe they have nothing to hide. Even in some of the comments where people say they had some kind of quality issue (drive face cracking, insert falling out of face of putter, etc), they also say that Pinemeadow replaced the club without any fuss.

[xxio]

The fact that Pinemeadow offers a 30-day playability guarantee, a 1-year warranty and allows customers to post comments on their site leads me to believe they have nothing to hide. Even in some of the comments where people say they had some kind of quality issue (drive face cracking, insert falling out of face of putter, etc), they also say that Pinemeadow replaced the club without any fuss.

 

 

I commend that type of service in fact you can read several comments about products failing (driver heads) in some of the reviews. I'm sure OEMs have the same issues but the network of the OEMs allow for ready replacement. If you read the Pinemeadow comments. They move quite slow, understandable for a smaller company. Even Rainbow/Warrior Golf(? I can't exactly remember) golf had a 30 day warranty and that company was &^%*%.

 

I'm sure they have nothing to hide. It is just that you get a clearer picture of what you are getting when you buy an OEM. Of course when an OEM says 13% better performance it could be 6-7 yards.

 

 

Again if you are happy with your clone. Consider yourself lucky.

 

The similar to TM R7CGB Max driver on the Pinemeadow site is $119.95. A very good condition R7CGB max on ebay is.....$100, completed auctions show new at $150sh (non TP). The Pinemeadow G15 is $99, a real G15 on ebay new is about $140-170sh. The Pinemeadow Burner is $109.95 whic is the older TM Burner (the one with the B on the sole). The Burner Superfast NEW which is one model newer than that is about $150-170 new on ebay. These are mostly ebay stores/golf merchants.

 

For another 30% or $40 value I would rather get the OEM. I'll just skip one round of golf or maybe eat at McDonalds a couple of times over the week to make up the price difference.

[Tyk]

If I wanted to buy some clubs, first thing I'd do is go to the Classified section here and tell everyone what I was looking to buy. I would be surprised if you didn't come away with something suitable at a better than ebay price! (I'd start by asking R.P.!)

[ZenGolfer]

I commend that type of service in fact you can read several comments about products failing (driver heads) in some of the reviews. I'm sure OEMs have the same issues but the network of the OEMs allow for ready replacement. If you read the Pinemeadow comments. They move quite slow, understandable for a smaller company. Even Rainbow/Warrior Golf(? I can't exactly remember) golf had a 30 day warranty and that company was &^%*%.

 

I'm sure they have nothing to hide. It is just that you get a clearer picture of what you are getting when you buy an OEM. Of course when an OEM says 13% better performance it could be 6-7 yards.

 

 

Again if you are happy with your clone. Consider yourself lucky.

 

The similar to TM R7CGB Max driver on the Pinemeadow site is $119.95. A very good condition R7CGB max on ebay is.....$100, completed auctions show new at $150sh (non TP). The Pinemeadow G15 is $99, a real G15 on ebay new is about $140-170sh. The Pinemeadow Burner is $109.95 whic is the older TM Burner (the one with the B on the sole). The Burner Superfast NEW which is one model newer than that is about $150-170 new on ebay. These are mostly ebay stores/golf merchants.

 

For another 30% or $40 value I would rather get the OEM. I'll just skip one round of golf or maybe eat at McDonalds a couple of times over the week to make up the price difference.

The thing about buying used though is that you never know if the club is real or a fake and if you have the club for a few weeks and the head cracks or the shaft snaps, youre screwed.

The mistake you make is that you think you know what youre getting with an OEM, you dont and when you buy used on Ebay its an even bigger risk.

[Tyk]

yes, you can always get screwed on Ebay, but I never have. I'm careful about the sellers, check serial numbers, etc. I think that if you're smart, informed, and careful the chances are pretty slim. If you think you're buying a new set of MP-59s for $150, you might want to think about it!

 

I don't really buy the argument that one doesn't know what they are getting from an OEM. If they were misrepresenting their products you'd hear about the lawsuits. Now, you can make the case that they are overcharging, that you're paying for marketing and pro sponsors etc and I'm in complete agreement with that. I guess I just don't understand what you mean by saying that one doesn't know what one is getting from an OEM and how whatever you mean by that would not just be a worse problem with a clone company.

[xxio]

The thing about buying used though is that you never know if the club is real or a fake and if you have the club for a few weeks and the head cracks or the shaft snaps, youre screwed.

The mistake you make is that you think you know what youre getting with an OEM, you dont and when you buy used on Ebay its an even bigger risk.

 

 

That is why I specifically mentioned ebay stores and merchants (and used their prices). Those are easier to get feedback on and get a genuine product.

 

Most warranties in the US will cover a time period even if you don't have the original receipt.

 

What makes you think you won't know what your getting with an OEM? If you are taking about a fake, then the research before purchase is the key. If you were able to spend time researching about a clone then the same effort could be made before an Ebay purchase from a power seller/ebay merchant.

[Shambles]

The thing about buying used though is that you never know if the club is real or a fake and if you have the club for a few weeks and the head cracks or the shaft snaps, youre screwed.

The mistake you make is that you think you know what youre getting with an OEM, you dont and when you buy used on Ebay its an even bigger risk.

 

 

I agree with you as far as established OEM's making mistakes. I myself was a victim of one of those mistakes way back when the larger companies were beginning to do business with China. Life happens. The mistake was apparently in the parts supplier who was not able to consistently deliver to spec. The OEM stopped production and distribution of the product.

 

I have also seen counterfeits being sold both directly from stores purportedly representing the OEM and on the second hand market. These, to my mind, represent the greater number of disappointments for buyers as against failures in genuine OEM products. It's not impossible, but has not happened to me in the sense of an OEM actually selling a genuine product not up to spec within reason. The difficulty is always whether you are looking at a genuine product or a counterfeit. I think safety from counterfeits is generally more available in the component market simply because they are so much more limited in acceptability to the general market and do not offer so generous a return. A product from Pinemeadow certainly seems more likely to come from Pinemeadow than any big OEM product even from little tiny retailers. They are a less attractive target to counterfeits. If their product looks good to you and they stand by their product, go for it. Many giants began from seedlings, and good ideas are not exclusive to the well moneyed.

 

Lets just be clear that clones copy looks and do not necessarily give proper importance to materials or build quality. Components that carry a brand are produced by people trying to make a product to build their name and reputation upon. It would be very unfair to clump them together.

 

 

Shambles

[ZenGolfer]

yes, you can always get screwed on Ebay, but I never have. I'm careful about the sellers, check serial numbers, etc. I think that if you're smart, informed, and careful the chances are pretty slim. If you think you're buying a new set of MP-59s for $150, you might want to think about it!

 

I don't really buy the argument that one doesn't know what they are getting from an OEM. If they were misrepresenting their products you'd hear about the lawsuits. Now, you can make the case that they are overcharging, that you're paying for marketing and pro sponsors etc and I'm in complete agreement with that. I guess I just don't understand what you mean by saying that one doesn't know what one is getting from an OEM and how whatever you mean by that would not just be a worse problem with a clone company.

What I mean is that you always hear stories of people who bought OEM clubs and the lofts, lies and/or swingweights were all over the place. What, are you going to sue them for that? Really?

[MattF]

Lets just be clear that clones copy looks and do not necessarily give proper importance to materials or build quality. Components that carry a brand are produced by people trying to make a product to build their name and reputation upon. It would be very unfair to clump them together.

 

 

Shambles

 

 

Shambles,

 

That was what I was trying to say a few posts ago, however, you said it a lot better than I.

[Tyk]

I have heard these stories as well. there ar going be horror stories with anything, but the evidence seems indicate this is the exception, not the norm. Stuff like loft and lie are dictated by manufacturing tolerance to some extent but are easily fixed as long as they aren't off too much. Off course one shouldn't have to even be concerned about that with a new $1000 set of clubs. I guess the question is: clones do any better? If they are made the same I don't see why they would be. If you assume they are cutting more costs than the oems then one should assume they should be worse, right?

[ZenGolfer]

I have heard these stories as well. there ar going be horror stories with anything, but the evidence seems indicate this is the exception, not the norm. Stuff like loft and lie are dictated by manufacturing tolerance to some extent but are easily fixed as long as they aren't off too much. Off course one shouldn't have to even be concerned about that with a new $1000 set of clubs. I guess the question is: clones do any better? If they are made the same I don't see why they would be. If you assume they are cutting more costs than the oems then one should assume they should be worse, right?

Or perhaps the clones are, "cutting cost" by not having to spend money paying tour pros to use their stuff and marketing their brand.

Your assumption that clones have worse quality is just that, an assumption.

[Tyk]

Ok. I guess the problem have with that is that if I were capable of designing and producing a cheaper, higher quality club that outperformed oem clubs I don't think my first thought would be "hey, lets call these "taylor fit braisers" and make them look as close as we can to someone else's product!"

[xxio]

Shambles,

 

That was what I was trying to say a few posts ago, however, you said it a lot better than I.

 

 

I think that was made clear early in the thread.

 

It was my mistake of mentioning a Bang (component company) product that was made similar to a Callaway product when using a non OEM product that had superior quality. I even mentioned that the designer/owner of Bang regrets that he made the SRV II that way.

 

I'm pretty sure the Pinemeadow products and the TaylorFits are what everyone is talking about here and not the products of Wishon, Dynacraft, Maltby, etc.

[ZenGolfer]

Ok. I guess the problem have with that is that if I were capable of designing and producing a cheaper, higher quality club that outperformed oem clubs I don't think my first thought would be "hey, lets call these "taylor fit braisers" and make them look as close as we can to someone else's product!"

Its all about satisfying market demand. What Pinemeadow does is look at whats popular in the industry right now and make products that are similar. Oh wait, thats just what everyone else is doing too.

[xxio]

Yup and most of those products clearly have diffrences and in fact they will highlight the most minute details to show that their products are "better".

 

All tyk and I are saying is that Pinemeadow should make the extra effort to mention more tech. TM will talk about internal weight and what it does to trajectory, spin, etc. Pinemeadow will say, we have weights ( that you can see anyway). It is that much more of an effort to basically paraphrase what the OEM has on their site? You already "paraphrased" the product, copying the tech marketing is just another half step.

 

And if everyone above the age of 8years would stop using the "but (dad), everyone is doing it", the world would be a much better place.