Has Anyone Ever Thought This Through?

[Sschaffer24]

Hello guys!

 

With it finally turning to winter here in PA, I'm of course starting to get the golf itch back. With that comes the usual stuff. Such as:

 

Randomly picking up a club while I'm at home, and imagining how I'm going to hit every shot pure next season...

 

Taking a few practice swings and realizing I finally solved my golf swing! I'll definitely average 70 or better next year...

 

Watching Mark Crossfield on YouTube and realizing that teaching is my calling...

 

But in the middle of all of that, I realized something.

 

As a lot of you know, I was a tester for the Hogan irons and wedges last year. They're still my gaming set and one of the clubs I pick up and randomly grip and play around with. But I am also a huge supporter of Edel golf, and before I gamed the hogans, my Edel wedges were some of the strongest clubs in the bag for me. So, I happen to pick the two clubs up sometimes off and on back and forth.

 

And I realized something. Both clubs feel completely different. The Edel has a much higher concentration of weight in the head, a lighter shaft and a more comtrollable feel (in relationship to me manipulating the clubhead) the Hogan has a much more consistent feel throughout the whole club, and feels very stable. While I don't feel like I'm directly manipulating the head, I do feel like I can control the whole club very well. Which is why I struggle occasionally to leave the Edels at home. Because they both feel so amazing, yet so different.

 

But here's the point.

 

I love, and prefer the feel of BOTH of these clubs. They are truly completely different in terms of feel, and fit with two completely different ideas. That got me thinking...

 

If I walked into an iron fitting, nine chances out of ten the fitter is going to use some kind of device to determine what shafts would work well for me. Say the Mizuno shaft optimizer for example.

 

Then, I'll try those three shafts, hit them on a launch monitor, compare feel and my numbers and typically make a decision.

 

But when do we as golfers ever actually TRY the exact opposite? When do we skip that step and say "Let me try the ultralight shaft" or " I want to try an x flex/regular flex" or so on? When do we step outside of our shell and try the other options that are out there?

 

Grips, shafts, club heads, distance gaps, swingweights, etc. the list goes on! I mean, really, when was the last time you guys were fit for the swing weight of your irons and actually tried the various weights to see what feels best?

 

It got me thinking. What am I missing out on? Bryson Dechambeau is a perfect example. That guy went to such an off the wall way of doing things and found the PERFECT setup for him because he was willing to try. If he never tinkers like that and optimizes, where is he today?

 

That kind of blows me away as I think about it. I know I've never went to either extreme and tried stuff out because of the categories that I've been fit into. But what if I like the feel of another option that I've never considered?

 

Maybe I'm crazy... Haha.

[NiftyNiblick]

First of all, Schaffer, there's no maybe about it.
We play golf.
Ergo, we're crazy.

But you bring up a good point, and it's the reason for my avoiding the dreaded launch monitor. Length, loft, lie, and flex are easy. Your ball flight tells you if you're fit properly or not. If you're experienced, it does. If you're inexperienced, your teaching pro can tell what's wrong if he/she is really any good. You put a good move on the ball, the result isn't what's expected, and hey, that club is too upright!

I'm not the least bit sure what a fitter can add to that. My faith goes first and foremost to the eye test. I took up the game as a young kid in 1959. I was a gearhead from the start, looking at everything whether I could reasonably afford it or most probably, not, and as a senior player, I can see what I'm likely to hit well pretty much off the bat.

Not so much feel, really. I'm not a feel player. I visualize shots and rely on muscle memory to create them, drawing very little correlation between the result and how it felt. I have nerve damage in my hands and don't feel much of anything. But given the limitations of my physical self at the time, I can usually create at least the type of shot that I visualize, this with the margin of error of an average recreational player. If I don't get it when I made a good move, I can usually figure out the fit metric at fault.

I see a new model and am usually unmoved. But sometimes, I see something and I say to myself, I know I can hit that if I can get it to fit. And for years, I played vintage gear because I couldn't get the new stuff to fit.

Now there are a few new models, suddenly, that can be made to fit, and some of them fit my eye as well. And that's what I go by. What fitter can possibly understand that?

[PlaidJacket]

I'm a fitting expert you all know. LOL.... not hardly. But, when I was fit for my irons back in 2014 we did try lots of shafts and heads. But within a range appropriate for me. I have a mid-late release and swing my full irons around 75. We also tinkered around with the weighting a bit too. Quite a bit actually. I can distinctly  recall how my fitter would ask me to pass him the club as he applied some weight to the head. I believe around the hosel. Grams... mind you. It was amazing how such a small amount of weight could make such a huge difference in feel. He'd ask me how it felt. All the while I'm hitting on the LM. All of my irons are weighted in the hosel. I remember going from little feel to... Wow! We never did do what you're suggesting Sschaffer. My fitter pretty much narrowed down the appropriate shaft flex and weight early on. I suppose if I'd asked to let me try an XS shaft he might have done so but I think it would have been a waste of our time.

Nice post.

[Kor.A.Door]

I know what I want and I know what I'm looking for, I am a feel player, I know how I want the club to look at address, I know what I want the ball flight to look like. I don't need a fitter to tell me that, for me it's all about feel, and with that I believe there are more options. There may be 5-6 different head/shaft combos that suit me, and it allows me to pick the one I like the best, and when I'm on the course, and hit a good shot, I know it's right. There is one thing that I needed help from the fitter, lie angle, I'm 6'4", so I need to be upright a little, the question was how much, so we used a lie board, and determined that 1* was optimal, since my ball flight is already left to right, going more upright would just accentuate that curve, since I was between 1 and 2 degrees we went with the lesser. We also added an inch to the length. For some a full bag fitting will be necessary, but for me I don't think it is necessary, that doesn't mean I couldn't benefit from some of the data, but I'm good with what I have right now.

[Mr_Theoo]

I've always kinda fooled around with clubs when I'm in the golf store before my lessons. If there is a new club I haven't hit I'll go hit it. No matter what the specs of it are. I know when the R1 was out I was hitting it in a M-flex and absolutely murdered it.

 

Also when I was at the kingdom the fitters we had there weren't using LMs really. A lot fit by eye, especially mine. He tried my same shaft in my Nike and it was awful. So he goes back and puts in a X-flex shaft and I just start bombing them. Was that shaft right for me based on my swing speed and stuff who knows but I know in my SLDR it works like a charm

[Sschaffer24]

And actually Theoo you kind of hammer home my point. Same with you Plaidjacket.

 

I guess my thing is this. We go into a store and are.... Stereotyped into a certain segment. The industry says that since you fit a set of X parameters you should play a certain segment of shafts.

 

But what if you're not the typical golfer? What if, the way that the XS shaft or the higher/lower swing weight would fix some issue with your swing that you're trying so hard to work on at the range?

 

How do we truly know what we like? We try a few things in the same realm (because that's what we need, right?) and decide that we like one over the other. So then we play that, and things similar throughout time.

 

It's kind of like this to me, guys always want the largest most forgiving driver so that they're not penalized on off center hits. But how about the guy who hits the M1 430 and murders it because the smaller clubhead makes him focus on what he's doing more? Or it gives him more confidence (or whatever) and then he in turn finds the perfect driver.

 

I just want to challenge what we all think fits us. What if there's something better out there that none of us have considered?

 

I'm not saying I'm right by any means... Just spurring some discussion!

[Quebec Club Ho]

I'm lucky that I work in a golf store (part time) so I get to try everything!

And you are so correct because I don't even bother with trying equip that is my specs... I always try either the too stiff for me, exotic shaft that only starts at stiff (I'm reg as you probably guessed) etc. I then dream of 'yeah, I can handle these! But after the 12th shot or so reality sets in and the dream crashes in flames....

I then go back to work in the store

[McaseyM]

I think it would come down to time and $, does one have the patience ?

The local place that has the most options charges around $100 per hour for fittings, and with the multitude of shafts and heads, you'd at least have to narrow it down a bit and also hope they have the fitting cart(s) updated/graded.

I'm a bigger guy , 6-2 and 215, and I played stiff flex until i got lessons and fit to an X based on swing speed. I could take my 6i 210+ in S flex ( according to LM any GolfTec) but lost about 20-30 yards in X ( much more consistent and tighter dispersion though) but also a heavier shaft.

My most recent fitting didn't use a LM, just working with the Cobra fitter for ~45 minutes switching shaft weight and loft until I was most consistent. Also went with cobra because I love their drivers, and they had the most free premium shaft upgrade ptions

 

Time is my biggest issue with family and work obligations so maybe one day I could spend a few sessions and some $, but not in the cards in the near future.

 

 

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[Sschaffer24]

Time is definitely going to be a factor for a lot of people. It is for me!

 

But I think a huge part of the golfing process is feel, and golfers tend to look past that a little bit it seems. It's amazing how much difference weighting can make a club feel. I would love to find the time to test different swing weights and shaft profiles some day. I think it would be really eye opening. As would grip size.

[McaseyM]

Schaffer, I'm reading between the lines of this thread that you're too confused on what's right with clubs, and I can see these Hogans are making it impossible to settle into your set, so, I'm going to do the hardest thing.....I'm going to save you by taking them off your hands.....they've got you thinking too much and like Maverick said, "if you think .....you're dead."

 

All kidding aside, there are so many factors in golf club selection, it's kinda crazy. I haven't been fit for wedges or putter yet, but I hope to change that this year .

I'm looking into wedges with bigger bounces and I remember reading you WIMB and that your Edels had crazy high bounces near 20, I can't find any stock that are like that and can't afford Edels at the moment, so I'll play around with some 10+ bounce lobs and gaps and the highest sandy I can find. Or I could save time and probably money and go get fit. I do like heavier wedge heads, but not sure about the rest of the irons. I've seen how BIG STU uses lead tape to up his swing weights, but I think I'd just confuse myself if I tried.

 

 

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[BIG STU]

Goes to show how everyone is different. I am strictly a feel player. Now PJ says he likes a club with weight in the hosel. For me I absolutely can not stand a club that is "slugged in the hosel" as us old timers call it but that is just me. I do step outside the box and experiment from time to time. I am fortunante that I have my little shop and the skills and equipment to build clubs. I know a lot of people in the golf business here I do get to try a lot of demos and sometimes do ginny pig work on shaft samples they have been sent.

Scott there is nothing wrong at all in mixing clubs especially in the wedge department. Look I am playing 35 year old irons that have modern shafts and new wedges with entirely different shafts. My woods are a mix too. I simply believe in playing what feels and looks good to me.

Casey- The lead tape works for me because it is all about the feel. I have a SW machine but I never SW my personal clubs. My old Cleveland wedges had been taped and weighted up for years I had never ran the SW on them until the Renegar tests and that was for the objective comparison. Funny thing was I carried a roll of tape on the range and got the Renegar wedges to the right feel for me and lo and behold when I checked them they were the same as the Cleveland ones. Remember everyone had a different sense of feel. For me I have to be able to feel the club head all through the swing because I manulipate the club through out the swing. But again that is just me. everyone has to be able to find their own nich and how they can do it. 

[McaseyM]

STU- I saw your wedges from your renegar review are D6.5.I was trying to look up weights of my MP T-11s and couldn't find them. I remember the feel of my last set of wedges (Wilson clones NOT counterfeit, from Diamond ahead golf) feeling heavy and liking that feel. If I were to experiment with lead tape myself, any recommendations on where to start?

 

 

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[fozcycle]

Plaid, Casey, Schafer, Stu,

 

I have never been profesionally fit for irons......although i did get a fit from Golftec, albeit it was not correct.  My internet fittings, from height, wrist to floor, etc, all have me at 2* Flat with standerd length and standard grips.  As such, the only irons I have that match up are the Cobra Bio Cells i review 2 years ago.  They have been revised to incl;ude a graphite shaft (Project X 5.0) .  I do not get time in the winter to go to a launch monitor to see if they are correct.  I can tell by the divots I take whether a standard lie or 2* Flat lie is correct.  I'll go with the 2* Flat....the other area of concern is the leading edge of the iron.  My swing shows that i need the V sole, such as the one the SCOR and Hogan offer.  So hopefully, my next set of irons will be graphite, 2* flat with a v sole..........Anybody got any suggestions?

[jbil8802]

Foz,

 

I'm gaming the JPX 850 forged and they have a v sole although I think it curves in towards the toe and heel. I'm at work today but I can take a picture when I get home tomorrow. I think the Srixon Z745s also have a v sole if I remember correctly.

[BIG STU]

STU- I saw your wedges from your renegar review are D6.5.I was trying to look up weights of my MP T-11s and couldn't find them. I remember the feel of my last set of wedges (Wilson clones NOT counterfeit, from Diamond ahead golf) feeling heavy and liking that feel. If I were to experiment with lead tape myself, any recommendations on where to start?

 

 

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On the wedges try to keep the weight as low as possible and try that. I like them feeling heavy in the bottom. Now it may not work for you it just depends on your swing angle. I do have a steep swing angle especially on the wedges on most shots. Even though I am 58 years old I am strong in the upper body. Now if you like the feel of the weight overall but you are fatting it some them move the weight up some on the back (higher). If you look at some WITB tour players photos you will see especially on the wedges that the tape is in different places for different players. do not be afraid to experiment to find what works best for you. Also one more thing to add in the list of variables different shafts react different ways to the weight. On the Renegars I had to get used to the KBS shafts and how they reacted for me. It was a little different feel for me being used to Dynamic Gold for most of my life. Like I said give it a whirl just start with small amounts and go from there. Let me know if I can be of further help. I thrive on meatball club engineering

[BIG STU]

Plaid, Casey, Schafer, Stu,

 

I have never been profesionally fit for irons......although i did get a fit from Golftec, albeit it was not correct.  My internet fittings, from height, wrist to floor, etc, all have me at 2* Flat with standerd length and standard grips.  As such, the only irons I have that match up are the Cobra Bio Cells i review 2 years ago.  They have been revised to incl;ude a graphite shaft (Project X 5.0) .  I do not get time in the winter to go to a launch monitor to see if they are correct.  I can tell by the divots I take whether a standard lie or 2* Flat lie is correct.  I'll go with the 2* Flat....the other area of concern is the leading edge of the iron.  My swing shows that i need the V sole, such as the one the SCOR and Hogan offer.  So hopefully, my next set of irons will be graphite, 2* flat with a v sole..........Anybody got any suggestions?

Oh I am going to throw you another iron in the fire so to speak. You say 2* flat now is that according to that paticular manufacturer. Different manufacturers have different 'stock" lies there is no standard. Good example for me on most wedges I go 65* for me which may be 1* upright for some and standard for others. If your clubs fit you good now I sugggest you have them checked and put down the exact degree they are not 2* upright etc. I have found out in the past for me that I go on MY standard lies and it works for me no matter the brand of club. I never measure lie degree numbers on my clubs either i just hit them on the lie board and go from there. Now say if I was fitting you I would go by the numbers. Sometimes you have to tweak the lie a degree or so between brands. Good example when I played Vokeys (old 252 series) they worked good for me at 64* where Cleveland and Renegar work well for me at 65*. Hope I did not confuse you too much.

[Kenny B]

Just for reference, the SCOR clubs all have 63* lie which is 1* flat from most standard wedges.  Mine are set to 61* so 2* flat from SCOR standard.

[Kor.A.Door]

It has been my experience that if you can't get a full fit, one very important dynamic is indeed Lie angle. That affects the ball flight left and right, you can leave it a bit flat or a it upright depending on your ball flight characteristics, just because the lei board says 2* flat, but your ball flight is already right to left, leaving it a little upright can help straighten the ball out, like Stu has been saying in here for years, you can't be Afraid to experiment and find what works for you l, whether it be feel, or ball flight or look or whatever it is. Play your game. No one can tell you what you want, there are ways to help, but make up your own mind on what you want.

[Sschaffer24]

I think the guys who tend to have the ability/opportunity to do what I'm talking about are the ones who are talking in this thread the most so far. Which is interesting.

 

Stu, imagine if you didn't have the ability/knowledge to tinker with that tape to find the exact swing weight that you like. What if when you walked into a store to get fit the guy fit you into a set of options and you just went with it, how would those clubs feels?

 

It's just amazing to me. Like, I can honestly say I've never tried to hit an ultralight regular flex shaft. I wonder what it would do for me? I've never hit super jumbo grips or heavy extra stiff shafts either.

 

What about really heavy club heads? Or counter balanced shafts? Or super light clubs? There are just so many options.

 

And I wonder how many guys really figured out exactly what they wanted...

 

For example, STU, how did you go about finding your perfect swing weight?

 

And Casey, yes sir my Edel wedges are the digger/driver bounce options. I gotta tell you man... They're worth every penny. Seriously. The best thing you can do is go to a local fitter and spend the money to just go through the fitting process with Edel. See what they have to offer. It blew me away.

 

Like Barbajo, you'll have to pry my Edel putter from my cold, dead hands!

[Sschaffer24]

And speaking to lie angle, I can COMPLETELY agree on that.

 

Funny story. In my last lesson my instructor was giving me irons to demo. One that he gave me was one that was something we both felt would be a great option. I picked it up, starting to swing it, and couldn't hit anything. I kept looking down at it and I just wasn't comfortable at all. Finally, my instructor and I kinda paused and I said something about the lie angle feeling off. It just didn't feel right!

 

So lo and behold, the club was two degrees upright. I am consistently fit at two degrees flat! So he when and actually adjusted the lie for me, gave it back and I was crushing it.

 

It's amazing what small changes can make!

[Kor.A.Door]

So Schaffer, you've got a lot going on in your head, if you get the opportunity to try some of these things, you should. It would be interesting to hear you r thoughts after trying some of them.

 

 

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[Sschaffer24]

Yeah definitely! I hope to have the chance!

[McaseyM]

The local Edel certified fitter only does putters, I have to try to catch them when they do their annual fitting/demos day at one of the local high-end golf courses. I hope/wish they would come out to the Haggin Oaks golf Expo in April

 

Since at least 2 MyGolfSpy Writers are based in Sacramento (Dave & Tim), and so many MGS members are big Edel fans, (and with Dave being the primary putter reviewer), maybe Edel would be interested in coming?????

 

Machine putters were here a few years back, and Cure was in 15, so there's hope

 

 

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[Sschaffer24]

Casey why don't you call them? Suggest it! It's pretty cool when you call them. They're a pretty small shop and you can talk to the same guy each time. You can talk to the people who will design and build your stuff. Heck, I spoke directly to the designer who custom built my putter for me. Awesome stuff!

[BIG STU]

I think the guys who tend to have the ability/opportunity to do what I'm talking about are the ones who are talking in this thread the most so far. Which is interesting.

 

Stu, imagine if you didn't have the ability/knowledge to tinker with that tape to find the exact swing weight that you like. What if when you walked into a store to get fit the guy fit you into a set of options and you just went with it, how would those clubs feels?

 

It's just amazing to me. Like, I can honestly say I've never tried to hit an ultralight regular flex shaft. I wonder what it would do for me? I've never hit super jumbo grips or heavy extra stiff shafts either.

 

What about really heavy club heads? Or counter balanced shafts? Or super light clubs? There are just so many options.

 

And I wonder how many guys really figured out exactly what they wanted...

 

For example, STU, how did you go about finding your perfect swing weight?

 

And Casey, yes sir my Edel wedges are the digger/driver bounce options. I gotta tell you man... They're worth every penny. Seriously. The best thing you can do is go to a local fitter and spend the money to just go through the fitting process with Edel. See what they have to offer. It blew me away.

 

Like Barbajo, you'll have to pry my Edel putter from my cold, dead hands!

Scott you got me seriously thinking when you asked what would happen if I did not know how to fit my own clubs. I honestly do not know. But it is not rocket science for me anyhow. I know you are relativetly new to the game but from the posts I have seen you are learning. Asking questions is the key. I still read and learn I will see something on here or another site and I will think and experiment. Messing with equipment is always a learning curve. Now as far on swing weights on my personal clubs I fit each club to me for the feel of that individual club. I never SW my personal stuff. I had those Cleveland wedges weighted up for years and never had checked them. I did it to compare with the Renegar ones. I really do not want to know the SW of my individual clubs sometimes for me some things are TMI.  On my irons if you checked the exact lies they may have different lie gaps compaired to the industry standard for the gaps. Now lofts I check dead on and for example my old Macs are dead on loft for the 1980 specs. Good example my 9 iron is at 43* loft which is the loft of a modern PW. I do not worry in the least that I hit the 9 iron where most guys hit say a PW or GW. I worry about the end result.

[hckymeyer]

I think you need to look at this from 2 different perspectives.  Look at it from you as an individual golfer, and then look at it as the golfing population as a whole.

 

When you look at it as the golfing population as a whole you are going to see trends. OEM's build to those trends and fit the greatest number of golfers they can for the lowest cost possible.  A tool like the MIzzy shaft optimizer is going to give recommendations based on it's current data base the golfing population as a whole.

 

After that it's up to the individual golfer to determine what works best for their swing.  

 

By all means try everything and see what sticks, over time you will start to get a feeling of what generally works best for you.  I'm a heavy swing weight, heavy shaft guy.  I've been fit for irons several times and tried all kinds of swing weights and shaft weights.  I always get the best results with a heavier shaft and somewhere in the D6 swing weight range.  That doesn't mean I couldn't hit an ultra-light shaft and have it feel good, but at the end of the day I'll get better and more consistent results with heavier.

 

Yes it's fun to mess around with outliers and crazy stuff.  But at the end of the day you're going to stick with what works.

 

Look at Stu, he's been doing this for so long he can blind hit his wedges and add lead tape until they feel right and it happens to dead on match his previous stuff.  

 

After a while you just know what works and stick to it.

[Sschaffer24]

That makes complete sense. Both posts do.

 

I know that personally I can go out and demo those different variables and honestly I plan to. I guess the idea of this thread/post was to put the idea in other golfers heads. To maybe let people understand that what you like the feel of might feel great, but there are other options out there! And to just remind them that these are stereotypes that we fall into. That we don't HAVE to fit into whatever group the OEM thinks we need to.

 

Personally I feel that is empowering. If you don't like your current equipment for whatever reason, then go out and try something completely different! You never know what it will do for you. The case in point for me is just the overwhelming difference between my two wedges, and the corresponding feel that I get from both. But I love them both.

[NiftyNiblick]

My perpetual hangup, regardless of trends, is new drivers and fairway metals. For some reason, they never feel as right as the older models do. TaylorMade Piitsburgh Persimmons, Titleist PTs, and Hogan Series 56s are clubs that I'll hit all day. Top Flite Intimidator 400s, too. If I try to go big with the driver, the Titleist 975J (312cc) is where I slam on the brakes. After that, I may as well be swinging a lobster pot at the end of a rod. And I'm allergic to shellfish.

'

So with "woods," it doesn't seem to matter how creative I get with what I try. If it's not old enough to vote, I probably won't like it. I honestly wish that I could understand why. I'm missing out on a lot of modern tech, but most of it seems to be designed to knock my ball off the club's property altogether. If I try to play modern "woods," the neighborhood dogs all wind up hoarding "Nifty Niblick" stamped Top Flites in their beds.

[Sschaffer24]

Have you tried shafting a modern driver with a steel shaft and traditional build? I wonder if you just like the look of the older style, and prefer something you hit down on and not the more modern approach to hitting up through impact, which these modern clubs are trying to maximize.

 

Maybe something in a 430cc head and a steel shaft or something?

[NiftyNiblick]

Steel shafts are a non-starter because of my damaged hands (I used to box as a kid). My old metals all have graphite shafts going back to the early 1980s.

 

Big drivers make me tee the ball higher and play it more forward than I'm willing to do. They also overcompensate for shaft droop with very upright lie angles whenever they're longer than 43½ or 44". One addresses the ball with the toe sticking up in the air.

 

For years, the fairway woods were also too upright and they were closed-faced to boot. Now they've started to make them flatter and more open with "pro" or "tour preferred" versions, but they don't make these versions in the high loft metals that I like.

 

There are recently good solutions--mini-drivers from Callaway and TaylorMade are both hittable for me. Henry-Griffitts makes custom metals in my specs at a stiff premium price, but they don't always lets you send in your specs and fill the order. Most dealers insist on fitting you themselves, even though I played golf before they were born and know what I need. Wishon can accommodate most specs with bending, but you're stuck with their inaccurate stamping afterwards. Stuff like that bugs me, too.

 

But you know what? The older stuff works just fine. I'm good.