Are we getting fit wrong? Crossfield thinks its a good possibility.

[GolfSpy_APH]

4 minutes ago, caryncgolfer said:

So not a no?

The other key measurement they take is wrist to floor which is equally important in that. Long or short arms to the average for certain heights make s big difference. 

Also worth noting that is the current ping color chart. They had a previous version with different numbers for colors and so on. Moved in smaller increments too.

But yes not a no haha 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, caryncgolfer said:

Doesn’t Ping’s fitting charts dictate height to how flat and upright of settings they choose for you?  The color code system 

 

1 hour ago, caryncgolfer said:

So not a no?

That’s a guideline. But as I mentioned there’s not a Ping fitter including the ones at HQ that use it. You won’t find any good fitters using it as I mentioned in my first reply. So it’s a no. 

My wrist to floor puts me in orange and maybe red. I was fit into black for both my i210 and i525

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, GaryF said:

Thanks for your input.  By what means should they use to determine lie? Just observing the swing and/or divot then trial &error, trackman data or is there some other process.  Probably obvious this is one of the areas I’m really concerned with.  It also seems that the lie adjustment needs to take into consideration the brand/model since there seems to be 0.5 to 1.0* difference in 7i lie between models. 

Most will watch how you deliver the club and look at where contact on the face is.

The best test is a sharpie line on the ball and seeing the mark it leaves on the face. 

[GaryF]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

The other key measurement they take is wrist to floor which is equally important in that. Long or short arms to the average for certain heights make s big difference. 

Also worth noting that is the current ping color chart. They had a previous version with different numbers for colors and so on. Moved in smaller increments too.

But yes not a no haha 

My clubs are White dot so I remembered wrong, they are 3* upright on both charts.  Based on my wrist to floor measurement, i am borderline blue on the old (0.75 up) and borderline blue on the new (1 up).  But when I as originally fit, they used a lie board. 

Like I mentioned, I’ve been feeling it’s too upright, but as golfers, we tend to accommodate our swing to what is in our hands (and terrain under our feet) , and I don’t view that as a bad thing.  But another data point, I was recently hitting JPX 925s at a pgatss, and was hitting pretty straight with a very slight fade, which is not my normal, so I was a bit frustrated.   Another agent came by to watch then asked what I was hitting, and I told him the 2 up configuration. I later was told he was their most in-demand fitter for what that is worth.  His comment was that I’m setting up too close to the ball in order to square the club up, and on the downswing, I don’t have enough hip clearance to pull through and I’m getting ‘stuck’ and forcing a slight out-to-in path.  He then had me it a 1* flat with a big improvement.

Ironically, the OTT path at the pgatss was the same as a fitting yesterday where I was hitting pull/draws, the difference being at the pgatss visit I had a slight open face, yesterday was closed face.

Edited January 21, 2023 by GaryF

[GaryF]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Most will watch how you deliver the club and look at where contact on the face is.

The best test is a sharpie line on the ball and seeing the mark it leaves on the face. 

I like that, simple is good! 

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, caryncgolfer said:

Doesn’t Ping’s fitting charts dictate height to how flat and upright of settings they choose for you?  The color code system 

 

 

It doesn't "dictate" anything.  Per their website (https://ping.com/en-us/misc/stash/fitting/iron-color-code-chart) where this chart is found it states: "We recommend you take your static recommendations to a certified PING Fitting Specialist for a dynamic fitting session to further fine tune your iron specifications."

[Bob Pegram]

18 hours ago, GaryF said:

So I have a general question about fitting from those on here that have worked as a fitter, past and present.  I am NOT looking to be fit here, but for reference, I am in the market for new irons, having played my fitted Ping G15s since about 2009.  They were fitted with their standard amt S shafts, and 2* upright.  At the time, it was before I had lessons and I knew very little (actually nothing) about swing mechanics.  The lie angle was determined using some kind of board and/or tape to see where the club bottomed out.  Since then, I’ve improved from mid 20s hdcp to 11-12.  I feel I’ve been fighting the 2-up with pulls or over-draws, but overall have done well with them but I do fight a slight out to in with 2-3* closed face.  At this point, I have out-aged stiff shafts and have a 7i SS of 75, and I’m 5’9”.

I know I’ve provided a fair amount of info, and again I’m not looking to be fit here.  I recently had one outdoor fitting by one brand and may do another.  I just would like to know, is there a general step-by-step process? I assume one of the first steps is a short q&a, then observation hitting my current 7i.  What are the next steps, etc?  If it’s not asking too much, I’d like to hear feedback regarding both indoor and outdoor fitting.  
 

 

There a number of steps. First, a preliminary measurement of wrist to floor. That is by no means an absolute way to determine club length. It is only a starting point. An alternate place to start would be to ask what is wrong with your existing irons and whether you think they are too long or too short, too upright, too flat, too heavy, too light, too flexible, too stiff. You may or may not know some (or any) of the answers to those questions. Either way a fitter would start with a club that, per your explanation and maybe our estimation, would be closer to fitting you. Obviously, we would watch how you swung that first club and make substitutions as indicated. We would keep going until you got to a club that you like, fit you relatively well, and got good results. At that point to fine tune it, we would put contact stickers on the face to see where you were making contact. We would look at ball flight, distance, spin, accuracy, etc. We may even ask what type of course(s) you play most often. For those who play the same course most of the time that can be important due to the playing characteristics of the course.       I forgot to mention something very important. If your swing has a significant swing flaw. We would first ask if we can work on your swing a little so that we are fitting your best swing, not your worst swing. We don't want the club characteristics to work against you when you improve. During all of this we would be explaining why we are choosing the shafts, club heads, lengths, lies, so you understand what is going on. It was amazing how quickly we got good at spotting even minor swing flaws. We saw so many swings that those flaws that most people wouldn't notice stood out to us. Feel to ask other questions. By the way, I had previously worked for a Top 100 rated custom club fitter (Golf Digest ratings). He moved to Indiana from the SF Bay area so my job went away. The fittings we did were somewhat more sophisticated than any big box golf store and we made the clubs. The finished clubs weren't ordered from the factory like they were at the big box store. No factory can have the same attention to detail a good clubmaker has. At the big box store I would check the custom finished sets we received for proper specs before phoning the customer who had ordered them. Occasionally they were off.

[Bob Pegram]

Just now, Bob Pegram said:

There a number of steps. First, a preliminary measurement of wrist to floor. That is by no means an absolute way to determine club length. It is only a starting point. An alternate place to start would be to ask what is wrong with your existing irons and whether you think they are too long or too short, too upright, too flat, too heavy, too light, too flexible, too stiff. You may or may not know some (or any) of the answers to those questions. Either way a fitter would start with a club that, per your explanation and maybe our estimation, would be closer to fitting you. Obviously, we would watch how you swung that first club and make substitutions as indicated. We would keep going until you got to a club that you like, fit you relatively well, and got good results. At that point to fine tune it, we would put contact stickers on the face to see where you were making contact. We would look at ball flight, distance, spin, accuracy, etc. We may even ask what type of course(s) you play most often. For those who play the same course most of the time that can be important due to the playing characteristics of the course.       I forgot to mention something very important. If your swing has a significant swing flaw. We would first ask if we can work on your swing a little so that we are fitting your best swing, not your worst swing. We don't want the club characteristics to work against you when you improve. During all of this we would be explaining why we are choosing the shafts, club heads, lengths, lies, so you understand what is going on. It was amazing how quickly we got good at spotting even minor swing flaws. We saw so many swings that those flaws that most people wouldn't notice stood out to us. Feel to ask other questions. By the way, I had previously worked for a Top 100 rated custom club fitter (Golf Digest ratings). He moved to Indiana from the SF Bay area so my job went away. The fittings we did were somewhat more sophisticated than any big box golf store and we made the clubs. The finished clubs weren't ordered from the factory like they were at the big box store. No factory can have the same attention to detail a good clubmaker has. At the big box store I would check the custom finished sets we received for proper specs before phoning the customer who had ordered them. Occasionally they were off. One other thing: we used FlightScope at the custom club maker and Foresight at the big box store.

 

[caryncgolfer]

20 minutes ago, Bob Pegram said:

There a number of steps. First, a preliminary measurement of wrist to floor. That is by no means an absolute way to determine club length. It is only a starting point. An alternate place to start would be to ask what is wrong with your existing irons and whether you think they are too long or too short, too upright, too flat, too heavy, too light, too flexible, too stiff. You may or may not know some (or any) of the answers to those questions. Either way a fitter would start with a club that, per your explanation and maybe our estimation, would be closer to fitting you. Obviously, we would watch how you swung that first club and make substitutions as indicated. We would keep going until you got to a club that you like, fit you relatively well, and got good results. At that point to fine tune it, we would put contact stickers on the face to see where you were making contact. We would look at ball flight, distance, spin, accuracy, etc. We may even ask what type of course(s) you play most often. For those who play the same course most of the time that can be important due to the playing characteristics of the course.       I forgot to mention something very important. If your swing has a significant swing flaw. We would first ask if we can work on your swing a little so that we are fitting your best swing, not your worst swing. We don't want the club characteristics to work against you when you improve. During all of this we would be explaining why we are choosing the shafts, club heads, lengths, lies, so you understand what is going on. It was amazing how quickly we got good at spotting even minor swing flaws. We saw so many swings that those flaws that most people wouldn't notice stood out to us. Feel to ask other questions. By the way, I had previously worked for a Top 100 rated custom club fitter (Golf Digest ratings). He moved to Indiana from the SF Bay area so my job went away. The fittings we did were somewhat more sophisticated than any big box golf store and we made the clubs. The finished clubs weren't ordered from the factory like they were at the big box store. No factory can have the same attention to detail a good clubmaker has. At the big box store I would check the custom finished sets we received for proper specs before phoning the customer who had ordered them. Occasionally they were off.

So those Gulf Dog Jest ratings are for real?  Not a popularity / highest bidder contest?

One wonders these things 

[GaryF]

5 hours ago, Bob Pegram said:

There a number of steps. First, a preliminary measurement of wrist to floor. That is by no means an absolute way to determine club length. It is only a starting point. An alternate place to start would be to ask what is wrong with your existing irons and whether you think they are too long or too short, too upright, too flat, too heavy, too light, too flexible, too stiff. You may or may not know some (or any) of the answers to those questions. Either way a fitter would start with a club that, per your explanation and maybe our estimation, would be closer to fitting you. Obviously, we would watch how you swung that first club and make substitutions as indicated. We would keep going until you got to a club that you like, fit you relatively well, and got good results. At that point to fine tune it, we would put contact stickers on the face to see where you were making contact. We would look at ball flight, distance, spin, accuracy, etc. We may even ask what type of course(s) you play most often. For those who play the same course most of the time that can be important due to the playing characteristics of the course.       I forgot to mention something very important. If your swing has a significant swing flaw. We would first ask if we can work on your swing a little so that we are fitting your best swing, not your worst swing. We don't want the club characteristics to work against you when you improve. During all of this we would be explaining why we are choosing the shafts, club heads, lengths, lies, so you understand what is going on. It was amazing how quickly we got good at spotting even minor swing flaws. We saw so many swings that those flaws that most people wouldn't notice stood out to us. Feel to ask other questions. By the way, I had previously worked for a Top 100 rated custom club fitter (Golf Digest ratings). He moved to Indiana from the SF Bay area so my job went away. The fittings we did were somewhat more sophisticated than any big box golf store and we made the clubs. The finished clubs weren't ordered from the factory like they were at the big box store. No factory can have the same attention to detail a good clubmaker has. At the big box store I would check the custom finished sets we received for proper specs before phoning the customer who had ordered them. Occasionally they were off.

Thank you for taking the time to describe your approach.  This is what I’d hope for as it shows patience and a consistent process.  And to me, the information and feedback from fitter to customer is just as important as customer to fitter and would be vital in my decision making. As a retired engineer, I not only want the data, but an interpretation of it within context of the overall swing and what I felt.  

[caryncgolfer]

3 hours ago, GaryF said:

Thank you for taking the time to describe your approach.  This is what I’d hope for as it shows patience and a consistent process.  And to me, the information and feedback from fitter to customer is just as important as customer to fitter and would be vital in my decision making. As a retired engineer, I not only want the data, but an interpretation of it within context of the overall swing and what I felt.  

Hehe not to pop your bubble, but I know a few high experts in their field, not engineering.  And the fields interact with engineers who need the services, they always come in and ask a million questions and can never trust the expert in the field.  And we all just gather around and laugh that if they would just go with the expert’s judgement everyone would save a ton of time. 
 

I see it everywhere “oh Gawd an engineer! “

just FYI, not judging.  

[chisag]

44 minutes ago, caryncgolfer said:

I see it everywhere “oh Gawd an engineer! “

 

... When it comes to golf, give me an engineer every time. Engineers have one goal, improve the quality of their clubs and help golfers play their best. Sales and some Reps have one goal, sell as many clubs as possible whether they help golfers play better or not.

... I played a round off golf with the VP of Engineering when Aldila introduced the original NV which was his design. Fascinating round of golf and I learned a ton just listening to him and what his goals were. 

[caryncgolfer]

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... When it comes to golf, give me an engineer every time. Engineers have one goal, improve the quality of their clubs and help golfers play their best. Sales and some Reps have one goal, sell as many clubs as possible whether they help golfers play better or not.

... I played a round off golf with the VP of Engineering when Aldila introduced the original NV which was his design. Fascinating round of golf and I learned a ton just listening to him and what his goals were. 

You heard a Vice President blathering.  Hehe jk

did he ever show you his business card and say “That’s Bone”.

[chisag]

43 minutes ago, caryncgolfer said:

did he ever show you his business card and say “That’s Bone”.

 

... "Bone?" that's Sale VPs. Engineers would be more like "We used a carbon based material that reduced the weight by 17.98% and have developed a new ink that is 27.63% brighter when viewed in low light and we are working on a completely new material that will be cheaper and 99.97% recyclable by 2025. This is my current card utilizing the above improvements but I misspelled my name".   

[caryncgolfer]

9 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... "Bone?" that's Sales. Engineers would be more like "We used a carbon based material that reduced the weight by 17.98% and have developed a new ink that is 27.63% brighter when viewed in low light and we are working on a completely new material that will be cheaper and 99.97% recyclable by 2025. This is my current card utilizing the above improvements but I misspelled my name".   

Haha that’s funny.

i was referring to the movie “American Psycho” where all the VPs compare their business cards like they all got brand new Masarati’s or Ferrari’s.  They compare the type face and color, one says “is that… Is that bone?”  Or something like that.  It’s hilarious!

once you make VP baby!  You pretty much just do nothing all day.

[funkyjudge]

3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... When it comes to golf, give me an engineer every time. Engineers have one goal, improve the quality of their clubs and help golfers play their best. Sales and some Reps have one goal, sell as many clubs as possible whether they help golfers play better or not.

... I played a round off golf with the VP of Engineering when Aldila introduced the original NV which was his design. Fascinating round of golf and I learned a ton just listening to him and what his goals were. 

You always learn a great deal when you listen closely to John O.

[chisag]

7 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

You always learn a great deal when you listen closely to John O.

 

... And a really good person as well! 

[funkyjudge]

29 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... And a really good person as well! 

Yep!

 I was one of his testers when he was finalizing the design of the Aldila ProtoPYPE shaft. I seem to recall you being a big fan of the VS Proto Blue “by you” shaft.

[chisag]

15 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I was one of his testers when he was finalizing the design of the Aldila ProtoPYPE shaft. I seem to recall you being a big fan of the VS Proto Blue “by you” shaft.

 

... I was lucky enough that he sent me everything to review. ProtoPype was a little too tip stiff for me but loved the NV Xtreme with a wire wrap that was never released commercially and I still have it. And yup, the VS Proto profile was the best fit for me. VS Proto 100's are still one of my favorite irons shafts. 





 

[funkyjudge]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I was lucky enough that he sent me everything to review. ProtoPype was a little too tip stiff for me but loved the NV Xtreme with a wire wrap that was never released commercially and I still have it. And yup, the VS Proto profile was the best fit for me. VS Proto 100's are still one of my favorite irons shafts. 





 

ProtoPype was also more than a bit too stout for me, and I was still a relatively young long- hitter at the time. I still have one of them around here somewhere. 
Another shaft that reminds me a lot of the ProtoPype is the AccuFlex Evolution with “nano technology”. I definitely have one of those shafts installed in a PV (Peak Velocity) 82 driver that is just sitting collecting cobwebs in my basement. That was a great driver head/shaft combination for really big hitters back in the day.

[Bob Pegram]

13 hours ago, caryncgolfer said:

So those Gulf Dog Jest ratings are for real?  Not a popularity / highest bidder contest?

One wonders these things 

They are real. Leith Anderson who I worked for had a number of other club fitters on his emailing list. Companies (especially smaller or new ones) would sometimes send Leith new products for him to review in his emails. They knew he could influence other club fitters to try the new product if Leith gave it a good and thorough review. Leith had no control over the Golf Digest ratings. They had/have strict minimum requirements. When Leith moved to Indiana at the end of 2013 it took him a while to get back on the list.       There is more politics and campaigning for Sectional PGA Teacher of the Year. I know because of the guy who shared the fitting facility with Leith.

[Bob Pegram]

9 hours ago, GaryF said:

Thank you for taking the time to describe your approach.  This is what I’d hope for as it shows patience and a consistent process.  And to me, the information and feedback from fitter to customer is just as important as customer to fitter and would be vital in my decision making. As a retired engineer, I not only want the data, but an interpretation of it within context of the overall swing and what I felt.  

Since we were in Silicon Valley, we catered to scientifically minded people like you. We would explain until you understood. A few customers didn't want to know, but they were the exception.

[GaryF]

54 minutes ago, Bob Pegram said:

Since we were in Silicon Valley, we catered to scientifically minded people like you. We would explain until you understood. A few customers didn't want to know, but they were the exception.

I like having the data that results from my swing, but the most important information is the interpretation of the data. I’m definitely no expert and wouldn’t pretend to be, but learning from others and having knowledge is very powerful.  Thankfully there are those like you that have patience and appreciate that.  

[caryncgolfer]

1 hour ago, Bob Pegram said:

They are real. Leith Anderson who I worked for had a number of other club fitters on his emailing list. Companies (especially smaller or new ones) would sometimes send Leith new products for him to review in his emails. They knew he could influence other club fitters to try the new product if Leith gave it a good and thorough review. Leith had no control over the Golf Digest ratings. They had/have strict minimum requirements. When Leith moved to Indiana at the end of 2013 it took him a while to get back on the list.       There is more politics and campaigning for Sectional PGA Teacher of the Year. I know because of the guy who shared the fitting facility with Leith.

Nice, I just looked and C.C. has every fourth spot.  Kind of weird since I’m not sure they used to be on it.  
 

and also what kind of irks me is the showiness of it all.  Let’s see you have to have ALL the shafts on the wall, have some golf bags back lit.  Have the Mitchell loft/lie right up front.  And there’s prob some more Cliche’ stuff I’m missing, but cmon, let’s get back to basics.  There’s a fitter out there, a good one who works on a tight budget and his/her fitting is $100’s less than the “Wallet Hoover’s” that is modern fitting.

just my opinion of course.  

[Bob Pegram]

10 hours ago, GaryF said:

Thank you for taking the time to describe your approach.  This is what I’d hope for as it shows patience and a consistent process.  And to me, the information and feedback from fitter to customer is just as important as customer to fitter and would be vital in my decision making. As a retired engineer, I not only want the data, but an interpretation of it within context of the overall swing and what I felt.  

Just so you are aware, it can vary a lot depending on which fitter you are working with, especially in a big box store. I was more thorough than some. An independent fitter has to be good or he goes out of business.

[Bob Pegram]

42 minutes ago, caryncgolfer said:

Nice, I just looked and C.C. has every fourth spot.  Kind of weird since I’m not sure they used to be on it.  
 

and also what kind of irks me is the showiness of it all.  Let’s see you have to have ALL the shafts on the wall, have some golf bags back lit.  Have the Mitchell loft/lie right up front.  And there’s prob some more Cliche’ stuff I’m missing, but cmon, let’s get back to basics.  There’s a fitter out there, a good one who works on a tight budget and his/her fitting is $100’s less than the “Wallet Hoover’s” that is modern fitting.

just my opinion of course.  

Yeah. C.C. is expensive. I interviewed with them on the phone and I got that impression just from the interview. Later reviews proved my impression correct. I stressed proper fitting and enough time with each customer which I guess they didn't like. I wasn't interviewed by a fitter. I was interviewed by somevody in HR.

[GaryF]

2 hours ago, Bob Pegram said:

Just so you are aware, it can vary a lot depending on which fitter you are working with, especially in a big box store. I was more thorough than some. An independent fitter has to be good or he goes out of business.

I frequently will hit different clubs at pgatss when I visit Atl or Orlando, but that’s about the limit.  I’ve had some sales people take a lot of time and ask me questions, and I’ve had some that were very indifferent and/or arrogant.  One was even extremely dismissive. One pgatss fitter in Altamonte did come very highly recommended but doesn’t fit with my schedule for getting down there, but I’m currently working with one from PXG. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by GaryF

[caryncgolfer]

14 minutes ago, Bob Pegram said:

Yeah. C.C. is expensive. I interviewed with them on the phone and I got that impression just from the interview. Later reviews proved my impression correct. I stressed proper fitting and enough time with each customer which I guess they didn't like. I wasn't interviewed by a fitter. I was interviewed by somevody in HR.

I saw their process on a YouTube with their CEO.  They “fit” everyone in their outdoor mall location.  Which here in Raleigh Is still a good 8 min drive to the nearest course.  They push up sells for everything, I mean that’s not a surprise though.  What was the biggest surprise was that they have guys at a central location piecing your order together.  All the parts are in clear bins, they just slap them together and that’s it.  So when you plop down 5 grand.  Some minimum wage yahoos are grabbing parts outta bins for your order.  It’s like “whoa, 3rd grade logistics over here”.

meanwhile a good fitting and ordering from the manufacturer’s website might be more fruitful.

[caryncgolfer]

1 hour ago, GaryF said:

I frequently will hit different clubs at pgatss when I visit Atl or Orlando, but that’s about the limit.  I’ve had some sales people take a lot of time and ask me questions, and I’ve had some that were very different and/or arrogant.  One was even extremely dismissive. One pgatss fitter in Altamonte did come very highly recommended but doesn’t fit with my schedule for getting down there, but I’m currently working with one from PXG. 

Neat!

I’ve heard some good things about some of the PGAss .  Interestingly enough I have kindle unlimited to keep up with some business reading and this fitter wrote a short book.  It’s about his time working at PGAss.  It was a pretty good read.  He works in Cincy and Phoenix areas, it mentions. 

[Bob Pegram]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:33 AM, chisag said:

 

... When it comes to golf, give me an engineer every time. Engineers have one goal, improve the quality of their clubs and help golfers play their best. Sales and some Reps have one goal, sell as many clubs as possible whether they help golfers play better or not.

... I played a round off golf with the VP of Engineering when Aldila introduced the original NV which was his design. Fascinating round of golf and I learned a ton just listening to him and what his goals were. 

Hwew is an example of a very thorough engineer's approach to golf: https://www.tutelman.com/golf/  It is the most thorough analysis of the golf swing, golf clubs, etc. I have ever seen. It is excellent.