Is it really the toughest field in golf? Debate away.

[JFish350]

I saw the title of this thread and was like ohhh boy this should be fun. With the LIV guys not included even though they are not earning points, it's probably the strongest on paper, Its a debate for sure. There are only maybe 5 liv guys that would make the field stronger. I will say I thought Rory tanked this week since it isn't a Limited field event and gurenteed money. 

As far as the guys still playing I like seeing new guys playing and some younger guys in the hunt. They are there for a reason and feel they get screwed with the limited field events. Can you imagine watching Rory all weekend when he finishes in the bottom 1/4. If it wasn't Rory we would never see those in that position. I'm not a fan of Rory's as of late. 

[Javs]

2 hours ago, MacTourney said:

Can't wait to see Smith walking tall carrying a big stick at Augusta...game on!

I would rather see Scottie 

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, JFish350 said:

it's probably the strongest on paper,

Isn’t that what the strength of field rating is, just a number on paper and no names. 

[fixyurdivot]

22 hours ago, CarlH said:

Other than Cam Smith, I don't see me rooting for any of the LIV players to win The Masters.

Is that because they went to LIV or you never liked/rooted for Dustin Johnson, Patrick Reed, Phil Mickelson, Bryson DeChambeau, Joaquin Niemann, Graeme McDowell, Brooks Koepka, Abraham Ancer, Paul Casey, Louis Oosthuizen, Kevin Na, HV3, Sergio Garcia, Taylor Gooch, Marc Leishman, Matthew Wolff, Lee Westwood, Bubba Watson, Ian Poulter, Brendan Grace, Carlos Ortiz, Martin Kaymer, Charl Schwartzel, or the others?

Lot's of characters in that group who have provided lots of great tour event history.  I like and root most of these players and miss seeing them playing tour events.  I look forward to a day beyond two grown men's personal pissing match having needlessly created the steaming pile we're currently experiencing.

[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Is that because they went to LIV or you never liked/rooted for Dustin Johnson, Patrick Reed, Phil Mickelson, Bryson DeChambeau, Joaquin Niemann, Graeme McDowell, Brooks Koepka, Abraham Ancer, Paul Casey, Louis Oosthuizen, Kevin Na, HV3, Sergio Garcia, Taylor Gooch, Marc Leishman, Matthew Wolff, Lee Westwood, Bubba Watson, Ian Poulter, Brendan Grace, Carlos Ortiz, Martin Kaymer, Charl Schwartzel, or the others?

Lot's of characters in that group who have provided lots of great tour event history.  I like and root most of these players and miss seeing them playing tour events.  I look forward to a day beyond two grown men's personal pissing match having needlessly created the steaming pile we're currently experiencing.

I don’t watch as much golf as I used to but there’s not a name on that list that would get me to turn in an event to watch play. If not already watching I’m not going to be like I need to turn the event on because they are on the leaderboard on the weekend

[fixyurdivot]

19 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t watch as much golf as I used to but there’s not a name on that list that would get me to turn in an event to watch play. If not already watching I’m not going to be like I need to turn the event on because they are on the leaderboard on the weekend

Is that because they went to LIV or you never liked/rooted for any of them?

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Is that because they went to LIV or you never liked/rooted for Dustin Johnson, Patrick Reed, Phil Mickelson, Bryson DeChambeau, Joaquin Niemann, Graeme McDowell, Brooks Koepka, Abraham Ancer, Paul Casey, Louis Oosthuizen, Kevin Na, HV3, Sergio Garcia, Taylor Gooch, Marc Leishman, Matthew Wolff, Lee Westwood, Bubba Watson, Ian Poulter, Brendan Grace, Carlos Ortiz, Martin Kaymer, Charl Schwartzel, or the others?

Lot's of characters in that group who have provided lots of great tour event history.  I like and root most of these players and miss seeing them playing tour events.  I look forward to a day beyond two grown men's personal pissing match having needlessly created the steaming pile we're currently experiencing.

Of that whole group the players I would like to see back playing regular PGA events are DJ, Cam, Brooks, Leishman... maybe Joaquin and Louis (however Louis is at the open and thats when I enjoy him the most) 

The rest I can do without and truly don't miss at all. History or not. 

Can still watch them play if they want, just not in normal PGA events, which is fine. The fields are still plenty deep with many talented players and up and coming stars which create just as much buzz and excitement in my eyes other than Cam. 

[fixyurdivot]

Fair enough. My point is that not having (at the time of their move to LIV) nearly 25 of the top 100 ranked players, playing in PGA events, lessens the "strength of fields", or at least what it could be had both tours worked out a non-nuclear agreement.  

 

[Javs]

15 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Fair enough. My point is that not having (at the time of their move to LIV) nearly 25 of the top 100 ranked players, playing in PGA events, lessens the "strength of fields", or at least what it could be had both tours worked out a non-nuclear agreement.  

 

I am only sharing my personal view on the subject. I do not agree that the players that went to the LIV have degraded the PGA Tour product. The extra media coverage over the split may have even increased the PGA product. Within three to five years we may not even remember the LIV. The ongoing legal issues will definitely impact if LIV even survives. I think we will see players begging to come back to the PGA once the dust clears. 

[Jim Shaw]

1 minute ago, Javs said:

I am only sharing my personal view on the subject. I do not agree that the players that went to the LIV have degraded the PGA Tour product. The extra media coverage over the split may have even increased the PGA product. Within three to five years we may not even remember the LIV. The ongoing legal issues will definitely impact if LIV even survives. I think we will see players begging to come back to the PGA once the dust clears. 

this comment resinates with me, if LIV does fold in the next 5 years, I wonder what will happen with the players on their tour? any thoughts on that? 

[Javs]

1 minute ago, Jim Shaw said:

this comment resinates with me, if LIV does fold in the next 5 years, I wonder what will happen with the players on their tour? any thoughts on that? 

I would imagine the Tour and the players would probably have a meeting and vote. Some of the current player and Tour leadership comments lead me to believe they would not be welcomed back.

[Jim Shaw]

1 minute ago, Javs said:

I would imagine the Tour and the players would probably have a meeting and vote. Some of the current player and Tour leadership comments lead me to believe they would not be welcomed back.

yeah, probably right, and maybe some input from high level sponsors as well... 

[Javs]

25 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

yeah, probably right, and maybe some input from high level sponsors as well... 

many sponsors already dropped the LIV players 

[CarlH]

3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Is that because they went to LIV or you never liked/rooted for Dustin Johnson, Patrick Reed, Phil Mickelson, Bryson DeChambeau, Joaquin Niemann, Graeme McDowell, Brooks Koepka, Abraham Ancer, Paul Casey, Louis Oosthuizen, Kevin Na, HV3, Sergio Garcia, Taylor Gooch, Marc Leishman, Matthew Wolff, Lee Westwood, Bubba Watson, Ian Poulter, Brendan Grace, Carlos Ortiz, Martin Kaymer, Charl Schwartzel, or the others?

Lot's of characters in that group who have provided lots of great tour event history.  I like and root most of these players and miss seeing them playing tour events.  I look forward to a day beyond two grown men's personal pissing match having needlessly created the steaming pile we're currently experiencing.

Has nothing to do with LIV, for me.  You could add Ancer to the list I'd root for.  There are just other players that I'd be pulling for ... would I watch Johnson, Woolf, Koepka, et al?  Of course!  And if one of them were to win, I'd say good for them.   But, you're correct that I never liked/rooted for Reed, DeChambeau, Watson, or Garcia.  

[CarlH]

2 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

this comment resinates with me, if LIV does fold in the next 5 years, I wonder what will happen with the players on their tour? any thoughts on that? 

I would think that they would be able to return to the PGA Tour, but may have to undergo some sort of qualifying route to gain a spot (i.e. Korn Ferry, sponsor's exemption, Monday qualifying round, etc).  I think the players of the PGA Tour would want the best to be able to play and several of the LIV players are among the best.  I could be wrong, but I don't see a permanent ban being upheld by the players.

[richk9holes]

The players are having their say in the debate with a show on Sunday. I switched over after Newcastle-Wolves and said to myself "this could be good." At that time there were 1/2 as many guys at double digits under. These guys at the top of the leaderboard are showing up.

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Is that because they went to LIV or you never liked/rooted for any of them?

Has nothing to do with liv. There’s not a name on that list that makes me want to tune into something I’m not already watching. It could be the John Deere, the players, a major or liv. If I’m not in front of the tv with the event on, I’m not going to drop what I’m doing, rush home to whatever to watch them. Really outside of Tiger there may be 3-4 guys on tour right now I’m going to tune in for if doing something else. Rickie, Rory, JT and Spieth are about it. 

6 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Fair enough. My point is that not having (at the time of their move to LIV) nearly 25 of the top 100 ranked players, playing in PGA events, lessens the "strength of fields", or at least what it could be had both tours worked out a non-nuclear agreement.  

 

As they drop it doesn’t lessen the strength of field because someone else is taking their place in the rankings so on paper the strength of field is based on the rankings of the players in the field. 
 

Is lessens the name recognition but as far as competition most of those guys don’t have a week in and week our chance of winning or really contending. 

[fixyurdivot]

50 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

As they drop it doesn’t lessen the strength of field because someone else is taking their place in the rankings so on paper the strength of field is based on the rankings of the players in the field. 
 

Is lessens the name recognition but as far as competition most of those guys don’t have a week in and week our chance of winning or really contending. 

Will have to disagree on that line of reasoning. Not having that group of players in the fields definitely makes them weaker, and the majority of those listed have as good a chance at winning or finishing T10 week in and week out as any of the others. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Will have to disagree on that line of reasoning. Not having that group of players in the fields definitely makes them weaker, and the majority of those listed have as good a chance at winning or finishing T10 week in and week out as any of the others. 

You are looking at it from a name recognition, past accomplishments and the skills of those names. To an extent I agree with that but strength of field is based on the rankings not names in the field. 
 

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You are looking at it from a name recognition, past accomplishments and the skills of those names. To an extent I agree with that but strength of field is based on the rankings not names in the field. 
 

Actually, except for a few, I'm not.  I think there have been roughly 25 top 100 OWGR players that have joined LIV, and half of those were in the top 50 at the time of departure.  These are world class players that did and would most definitely add to strength of fields each week. 

 

[Javs]

52 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Actually, except for a few, I'm not.  I think there have been roughly 25 top 100 OWGR players that have joined LIV, and half of those were in the top 50 at the time of departure.  These are world class players that did and would most definitely add to strength of fields each week. 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golfers-fall-official-world-golf-ranking-2022-final-look

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Actually, except for a few, I'm not.  I think there have been roughly 25 top 100 OWGR players that have joined LIV, and half of those were in the top 50 at the time of departure.  These are world class players that did and would most definitely add to strength of fields each week. 

 

Yes based on ranking they would but most of those guys aren’t competitive anymore or are only good on certain tracks. Most of them have 1-2 wins in their short careers. 
 

So they may carry name recognition but they aren’t going to be top 10-25 every week and will rarely be top 5

[revkev]

I’d say most years it is - this year is a bit different of course. I have no clue how to evaluate the LiV guys so it’s hard to figure out relative strength of field. Based on their form when they left Cam Smith is the only big loss. But DJ, Brooks and Bryson are very streaky so by now they could have been on a roll. 
 

We will never know. 
 

Does it really matter though? It’s hard to win a tour event period and harder still to win a major, even the Masters. I’m one who loves to poke the Masters bear but it’s still the Masters, there are in their prime major winners in the field and it’s a tough golf course. It’s not like it’s easy to win any of these things. 

[Ea333525]

On 3/9/2023 at 7:24 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yes. When you look at the strength of field rankings of the players vs the majors, the players has a higher strength of field.

Its based on the world rankings of the field and when you look at majors there are players that have exemptions to them that may not currently be ranked high.

And yes when those players aren’t in the field it can still be a stronger field because their world rankings are dropping 

World rankings are dropping because of the golf world crying about LIV and not counting their play. How can someone claim to be the top 10 in the world when not every player is not judged the same? Very amusing   

[RickyBobby_PR]

13 minutes ago, Ea333525 said:

World rankings are dropping because of the golf world crying about LIV and not counting their play. How can someone claim to be the top 10 in the world when not every player is not judged the same? Very amusing   

Everyone is judged the same. Those who play on owgr sanctioned events get points, those who don’t play in them don’t get points.

LIV chose to have a format that 1) doesn’t met owgr requirements and 2) they still have to wait the normal cycle time to process the request to be approved for owgr points.

People are just upset that their favorite golfers left and aren’t getting points. That’s life and life isn’t fair 

[JeanetCorrst]

I have to notice even if the LIV format were to be approved for OWGR points, there would still be a waiting period before those points could be awarded. This is simply a part of the OWGR process and applies to all tournaments, regardless of format))

[Beakbryce]

So I guess the LIV players don't suck at playing golf. 2 Players tied for second and 1 player tied 4th so 3 of the top 6. The OWGR has become irrelevant. Phil advances 350 something spots based on 1 tournament.  If the Players is going to talk about having the toughest field, where were these guys?

Just saying.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

So I guess the LIV players don't suck at playing golf. 2 Players tied for second and 1 player tied 4th so 3 of the top 6. The OWGR has become irrelevant. Phil advances 350 something spots based on 1 tournament.  If the Players is going to talk about having the toughest field, where were these guys?

Just saying.

 

The players toughest field isn’t based on the name recognition of the golfer but on their ranking. so if the top 75 regardless of what the names in those positions are all player in an event and in another only a handful of them are in another the field with the top 75 is going to be a stronger field

I don’t think anyone said they can’t play golf but rather that where you look at their recent performances on the pga tour prior to leaving for LIV they weren’t having success. All one has to do is look at pgatour.com stats for each player you can see how they were performing on tour. Reed had a worse 2021-2022 year than he did the previous 2. Phil missed 4 of 6 cuts in 2021-2022, missed 9 cuts in 14 events and 1 top 10 in the events he made the cut  the previous season

 

[Beakbryce]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:04 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

The players toughest field isn’t based on the name recognition of the golfer but on their ranking. so if the top 75 regardless of what the names in those positions are all player in an event and in another only a handful of them are in another the field with the top 75 is going to be a stronger field

I don’t think anyone said they can’t play golf but rather that where you look at their recent performances on the pga tour prior to leaving for LIV they weren’t having success. All one has to do is look at pgatour.com stats for each player you can see how they were performing on tour. Reed had a worse 2021-2022 year than he did the previous 2. Phil missed 4 of 6 cuts in 2021-2022, missed 9 cuts in 14 events and 1 top 10 in the events he made the cut  the previous season

 

I get what you are saying, but the ranking system you are relying on is hugely flawed. The facts that you pointed out are actually in agreement with what I am saying. I am just not referring to the fact that LIV golfers aren't included, and BTW, I agree with that, but that someone who was in free fall in the OWGR like Phil for his play prior to LIV, and then no points in LIV, can then advance 353 spots just by placing second at the Masters. That's 353 golfers that toiled all the past year to improve their ranking and got blown away in one tournament. That's just not right. So saying the Players is the toughest field because of OWGR ranking is questionable. It's a flawed system seeking a fix.

[RickyBobby_PR]

34 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

I get what you are saying, but the ranking system you are relying on is hugely flawed. The facts that you pointed out are actually in agreement with what I am saying. I am just not referring to the fact that LIV golfers aren't included, and BTW, I agree with that, but that someone who was in free fall in the OWGR like Phil for his play prior to LIV, and then no points in LIV, can then advance 353 spots just by placing second at the Masters. That's 353 golfers that toiled all the past year to improve their ranking and got blown away in one tournament. That's just not right. So saying the Players is the toughest field because of OWGR ranking is questionable. It's a flawed system seeking a fix.

That’s the advantage of being qualified for majors and higher ranking events like wgc. 
 

It’s also based on a 2 year/40 meet timeframe. It’s why new golfers who get hot on tour when they first join can shoot up the rankings quickly because they don’t have that many meets to average in.

Whether if it’s flawed or not it is what it is and everyone plays to the same rules. Life isn’t fair either but it is what it is.