Mizuno Long Game - 2023 Forum Review

[russtopherb]

43 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Also no shipping notice for me either. I have a two day tournament this weekend so probably better that I don't get it now. I have to say *quietly* I have been hitting my Driver really well lately but there is always the desire for more. My low lofted hybrid (which is essentially my 5W since I don't play a 3W) and Utility iron could benefit from some competition though. Especially the hybrid. 

Same here, actually! Only missed 2 fairways on my 9 hole round this week, one was very playable and the other was a punch out that still put me in decent position. It's gonna be a battle in that spot for sure. Fairway... maybe not so much as the HyWood has really been letting me down lately. 

[Beakbryce]

5 hours ago, Swood1994 said:

maybe a trip back to the track man to get averages on all of the settings may help get a better idea of what the ball will do when course conditions are "normal" and not so wet.

That will be taken care of later next week. In my community for aged folk there will be 2 courses open starting next week so there will be more tee times open later in the day. Going to be plenty hot but the fairways will be dry. Will play the military course as usual 3 times a week early and at least twice a week local. I won't have any problems seeing what the clubs can do under normal playing conditions. Next week due to personal preference and the military closed on Tuesday, will play Sunday, Wednesday and Thursday there. Probably play Friday here. May play Tuesday here as well but the wife has the cart in the morning for her league golf. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Beakbryce

[Swood1994]

2 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

That will be taken care of later next week. In my community for aged folk there will be 2 courses open starting next week so there will be more tee times open later in the day. Going to be plenty hot but the fairways will be dry. Will play the military course as usual 3 times a week early and at least twice a week local. I won't have any problems seeing what the clubs can do under normal playing conditions. Next week due to personal preference and the military closed on Tuesday, will play Sunday, Wednesday and Thursday there. Probably play Friday here. May play Tuesday here as well but the wife has the cart in the morning for her league golf. 

Can we switch schedules for a couple weeks?? Haha that’s amazing and while await the arrival of my clubs I look forward to all the updates on your side!

[Beakbryce]

4 Hybrid is here. Love the look. Pictures tomorrow. It is considerably smaller than my Callaway BB 19. Took it out back and swung it on my mat. Naturally swinging club. Everything about it feels nice. Can't wait to try it Sunday.

[russtopherb]

[Beakbryce]

42 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

Are you sure that's not me waiting for other feedback?

[Beakbryce]

as promised, a couple of pics of the 4 hybrid.

It's a little hard to tell but the Mizuno is considerably smaller than the Callaway BB 19. I really like the look and shape and a smaller size doesn't bother me at all. 

Although these aren't actual hits with numbers, I have swung it on my mat and it is a pretty sweet swinging club. I can't wait to hit it.

For review, this is the STZ 230 4 hybrid with a LINQ hybrid 75 F3 shaft. The standard setting is 22 degrees and it has the Mizuno adjustable settings in the hosel. Unlike the tests for the driver and 3 wood where I would like them to be longer and straighter than my current clubs, I am looking for a specific yardage of 180 yards, dead straight, with a higher window for the flight path. I would also like to be able to choke up and hit it 170 yards. 

On a whim, in case the good vibrations were the shaft, I looked at the Mizuno website. The have a LINQ shaft for the driver and the 3 wood. The 3 wood LINQ is greyed out so maybe not available right now? I guess the PGA Superstore didn't have those to try which may end up being a shame. Here is something else I found while I was being a bit more thorough on their site. https://mizunogolf.com/us/custom-fit/. They have a seven iron/ measurement tool that can make all kinds of club and shaft suggestions for all their clubs, including drivers. That would have been nice to use. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Beakbryce

[Beakbryce]

I was popping around trying to find out more information on the Mizuno website. I noticed the driver length shaft is 45 inches. I looked at several websites that indicated that for each half inch shorter in shaft length, 1.5 to 2 miles of clubhead speed is lost. Each MPH is about 3 yards. Since every manufacturer I know is at 45 3/4 or the legal 46 that equates to about 6 - 12 yards. That could be why the Mizuno driver is losing yards to my Callaway's shaft length at 45.75 inches. That alone may explain the real world difference I am seeing. 

For me, that seems like something you wouldn't want to give up in today's market. I wonder what length shaft is in Luke Donald's driver?

Can't wait to see how everyone else's numbers compare.

[Swood1994]

1 hour ago, Beakbryce said:

I was popping around trying to find out more information on the Mizuno website. I noticed the driver length shaft is 45 inches. I looked at several websites that indicated that for each half inch shorter in shaft length, 1.5 to 2 miles of clubhead speed is lost. Each MPH is about 3 yards. Since every manufacturer I know is at 45 3/4 or the legal 46 that equates to about 6 - 12 yards. That could be why the Mizuno driver is losing yards to my Callaway's shaft length at 45.75 inches. That alone may explain the real world difference I am seeing. 

For me, that seems like something you wouldn't want to give up in today's market. I wonder what length shaft is in Luke Donald's driver?

Can't wait to see how everyone else's numbers compare.

This is definitely something I’ll be checking before it touches a ball. Thanks for the heads up. I too would be shocked if they’re automatically shipping drivers at 45”. Like you said that’s giving up yardage/club head speed without the customer knowing. 

The 4 hybrid looks absolutely incredibly! Is the face naturally closed or was it just the way the picture was taken?

[Beakbryce]

19 hours ago, Swood1994 said:

The 4 hybrid looks absolutely incredibly! Is the face naturally closed or was it just the way the picture was taken?

08/06/23

Let's start with that question. The club sets up very straight and was a delight to hit. I realize it looks like a closed face in the picture, but it doesn't set up that way. Recall I need this club to go 180 to match my current 4 hybrid. I hit the Mizuno 3 times from 180 yards today. The feeling on the hit was much better than the woods, sound was still muted, ball flight was low with a nice little draw, and all three times the ball went... 165 yards. My 6 hybrid goes 165 yards. Only time I hit my 6 hybrid today it was 160 yards uphill into an 8 mph wind on 18. It went 160 yards. I was beginning to think it was me. I could add loft to the Mizuno 4 hybrid to get the ball flight up but that would just encourage more draw.

Course conditions were drier in the landing area with a bit more wind than we usually see in the morning. Driver average was 212. Missed one fairway. 3 wood average was 192 and the balls were fairly straight. I hit one 3 wood off the tee on a downhill hole that went 205.

I did hold the Mizuno and Epic drivers together and the Mizuno shaft is definitely 3/4 inch shorter than the standard Epic shaft. See the length specifications below. 

The following is from the customization discussion about length of the shaft on the same page.

"Woods can be built +/- 1″ from standard length but the swingweight will increase by 3 points for every +1/2″ and reduce by 3 points for every -1/2″.

I guess they couldn't get the head right with a longer shaft. Those 3-6  swingweight changes must have resulted in a head heavy feeling club with some directional or ball flight problems.

One of my buddies asked me today if the Mizuno driver had anything inside because it sounded hollow to him!

Sorry guys, these clubs are going to be sequestered until all of you have your clubs, have some range time, and some game time on them. This will give me a chance to hit the Epics and make sure I haven't just lost my game totally. I'm a bit discouraged with the results so far. I just hope my Epics and BB 19 aren't mad at me. 

My apologies to them will be profuse and heartfelt.

I will be open to any suggestions for the Mizunos after you all have hit your clubs.

There appears to be an option to send clubs on to another tester, and I am contemplating that scenario if I kill my Epics this week. 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Beakbryce

[vandyland]

On 8/5/2023 at 5:41 PM, Beakbryce said:

For me, that seems like something you wouldn't want to give up in today's market. I wonder what length shaft is in Luke Donald's driver?

 

On 8/5/2023 at 6:47 PM, Swood1994 said:

This is definitely something I’ll be checking before it touches a ball. Thanks for the heads up. I too would be shocked if they’re automatically shipping drivers at 45”. Like you said that’s giving up yardage/club head speed without the customer knowing. 

I will play the contrarian and say I kind of like it? I think drivers have gotten insanely lengthy when you recall that persimmon drivers were like 43.5" and some (not all maybe not even majority) play drivers less than 46". I played a driver at 44" for most of last year and only switched to a longer driver this year. Yes, it will cost you clubhead speed and resulting distance and I totally agree that when you put your driver on one of those Iron Byron swing machines you will give up distance. But what about the average golfer? Will they hit the center more often at 45" vs 46", for some golfers probably yes. 

Cobra used to have a standard driver option and a "tour length" option which was about an inch shorter. I'll just say I don't think these companies can speak out of both sides of their mouth on one main issue, forgiveness. If want to talk about how your driver being forgiving and accurate you can't also set it up at 46", to me anyway. It is very hard to prioritize BOTH Ball speed and accuracy/forgiveness. But that is the whole marketing game. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 8/5/2023 at 6:41 PM, Beakbryce said:

I looked at several websites that indicated that for each half inch shorter in shaft length, 1.5 to 2 miles of clubhead speed is lost. Each MPH is about 3 yards. Since every manufacturer I know is at 45 3/4 or the legal 46 that equates to about 6 - 12 yards.

Not necessarily true. It will depend on the golfer. There are plenty who don’t see any reduction in speed and will see an increase in ball speed which is more important than swing speed, contact point on face which will improve launch characteristics, efficiency aka smash factor and improve distance.

You wouod need to put both drivers on a launch monitor to actually see what’s causing a change in distance between the two. Anything else is a guess and possibly a bad guess, because the numbers you mentioned are if everything else is equal, which more than likely they aren’t 

[Beakbryce]

4 hours ago, vandyland said:

I will play the contrarian and say I kind of like it? I think drivers have gotten insanely lengthy when you recall that persimmon drivers were like 43.5" and some (not all maybe not even majority) play drivers less than 46". I played a driver at 44" for most of last year and only switched to a longer driver this year. Yes, it will cost you clubhead speed and resulting distance and I totally agree that when you put your driver on one of those Iron Byron swing machines you will give up distance. But what about the average golfer? Will they hit the center more often at 45" vs 46", for some golfers probably yes. 

Totally agree. That has always been the position of a lot of instructors as well. 

My take would be that you can always choke up. There is no option when you start at 45".

The one day I kept strict track of where I hit the clubface and how far, 2 absolutely center hits were matched distance wise by a 1/4 inch off center hit. 

Maybe MGS needs to do a study on different length drivers and how much is lost from an inch shorter driver hit in the center and a longer driver hit off center. How off center does the hit have to be before it loses to the inch shorter driver?

That may also help explain why I was off center when looking at this driver behind the ball.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Beakbryce

[Beakbryce]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not necessarily true. It will depend on the golfer. There are plenty who don’t see any reduction in speed and will see an increase in ball speed which is more important than swing speed, contact point on face which will improve launch characteristics, efficiency aka smash factor and improve distance.

You wouod need to put both drivers on a launch monitor to actually see what’s causing a change in distance between the two. Anything else is a guess and possibly a bad guess, because the numbers you mentioned are if everything else is equal, which more than likely they aren’t 

That is why in the original post I said "could be the reason", not "is the reason" for the loss I am seeing in distance. My post didn't state that all golfers would lose distance with a shorter shaft. I agree with both you and Vandyland. I value the comments you both have made about the length of shaft. I could have noted your discussion points in my original post about length but I didn't feel it necessary as I have heard all of those points before and I believe them to be well known in the community.

It is a fact that the USGA and R&A recently limited shaft length to 46" in the belief that longer shafts resulted in longer drives for those golfers that trained to a longer shaft.

Clearly, there are thousands of shaft and clubhead variations out there with no one setting being perfect for everyone. That is why golf has so many different manufacturers making so many different clubs resulting in so many choices.

This test isn’t about all those other choices. This test is relevant only to what I am finding out regarding a specific driver.

I am reporting what I see concerning the Mizuno driver that I am testing with information relevant to my test as noted in my post.

I can’t be the only person reading these posts finding it relevant that the Mizuno has a standard shorter shaft than the competition.

In my case, it is not a guess that this driver is shorter than my Epic in both shaft length and in real life distance. I don’t need to put both clubs on a launch monitor as I am playing on courses I have played for 20 years and in real life, the Mizuno driver is shorter. Since I hit the ball in the center of the face most of the time, I am looking around for reasons why this Mizuno driver is shorter than my Epic. In my case, the shorter shaft is relevant and not a guess. Please note that I have tested several of the adjustability factors in an effort to find better numbers.

I am just looking around for as much information I can report so the test is complete as I can make it. Right now, those reports are concerned with what I am seeing. This is still the middle of the test. There will be a conclusion report where I can review my findings and how they may be relevant to everybody. Clearly, length of shaft will be in the conclusion as a fact. People reading the test and all the comments including yours can decide if the shorter shaft is relevant to them.

Which is why I am suspending testing until everybody has the clubs with some significant testing and play time to see what everyone else is observing numbers wise. If the Mizuno driver is longer than the other testers current gear, I couldn't be happier with the result.

Whether the clubs are or aren’t longer, I look forward to the discussion as to why. The discussion will be more relevant with other test information.

I also look forward to your future contributions regarding the test and your valuable knowledge which clearly aids the discussion.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Beakbryce

[Beakbryce]

I would just put the following points out for discussion regarding length of shaft. I mean, in the end it is just physics, a bigger arc produces more clubhead speed and a longer ball. Where the physics falls apart is the human side of the equation and that is what we are talking about.

1.      The thinking that a shorter shaft helps a golfer hit it more in the center has been around since wooden club heads. It was there when I started golfing in the early 80’s. With a wooden club head, or even say the first Big Bertha, the clubhead width across the equator wasn’t very long so a quarter inch off center was a big deal. The sweet spot was small and localized to the center. That isn’t the case today. Sweet spots are huge on the better drivers. Perimeter weighting has cured a lot of bad swings. Additionally, the weight of the wooden clubhead seriously made it hard to add length to the club without the swing weight getting totally out of hand. That’s why the driver shafts were shorter back in the day. I don’t know if you have actually tried a wooden club with a 46” steel shaft but it is seriously heavy. Axe heavy.

2.      Any discussion of hitting the ball in the center of the clubface has to involve a swing so out of control it misses both on the heel and toe side, because if it is only on one side, you could just address the ball so as to fix the miss. This should be self evident.

3.      If 1” is better, is 2” even better than that? How about 3”? Where does it stop? That is what testing and fitting is supposed to accomplish. Has anyone been to a test where the fitter actually stopped trying to fit someone in to a 45.75-46” shaft and went to shorter ones, or did they suggest a different club, or that lessons might be more appropriate use of the clients’ money? I’m sure it has happened, but how often is what I am asking? What is the ratio? What do they say to their golf buddies, "ya man, I got this new club and it is way accurate. I will be in the fairway hitting a 7 iron to the green while you guys are all over the planet hitting a wedge in to the green and I am going to kick your..." wait, what? Seriously?

4.      Do we really think with today’s clubs that a 90 MPH swing that misses so often on both sides of the sweet spot will be helped by a shorter shaft that reduces the swing speed by a 1-5 MPH, or whatever the actual number turns out to be? A couple of MPH doesn’t mean you can manipulate the club in the middle of the downswing to make perfect contact when the club is going that fast.

5.      If you feel you need to be 1” closer to the ball for perfect contact, you could just stand a little taller or you can just choke up. Why take the length option out of play when you don't need to? There are a lot of holes where crooked is less important than max length.

6.      It’s the rare individual today that would willingly buy a driver that’s shorter but straighter.  Human nature after all. I mean, maybe if you hit it 330 and you are going down to 320. Jack Nicklaus, in reference to new golfers, said to learn to hit it long first. I would just ask you if you see golfers moving up a tee so that their accurate driver leaves them with the same club everyone back a tee is hitting in to the green, or maybe they play the same tee and take the ribbing that comes from being the shortest driver. Maybe they score the best and I grant you that's always the best answer. Be honest though, a year from now are you going to remember the 73 you shot today, the $5 dollar bet you won, or the drive you blasted 25 yards further on a hole making it the best ever on that hole?

7.      How many instructors do you know, have a shorter length driver for their students to learn with?

I know there is a ton of golf “lore” out there, but that doesn’t mean it can always prevail over logic. It's not wrong to question whether the old saw that shorter is more accurate is actually true in a majority of cases today.

I know golfers that do hit a shorter shaft longer with their particular club. Exceptions to the rule does not make the rule involving pure physics invalid.

Today's golfing public is mostly concerned with the long drive and how they can get longer. Otherwise, Joe Golfer would be clamoring to join the USGA and play a reduced distance ball.

While some would be helped by a shorter shaft, some will not. Maybe Arcos can weigh in if they have those stats. That’s the beauty of golf.

There is a reason a lot of women golfers now use men’s length clubs rather than standard length “women’s” clubs. They are taller and are fit better with longer clubs. In this case shorter is not better.

Wouldn’t it be interesting to see if shorter golfers, say those on the LPGA Tour, are being fit with shorter shafts. You would think shorter golfers would be the most affected by shaft length and the need for a shorter shaft. Brooke Henderson's play suffered while she adjusted from a 48" to a 46" shaft. Again, an exception which isn't definitive either way.

Just in case though, anyone want to bet on the number of LPGA players with a shorter driver shaft? Would it approach even 5%?

Again, I am only pointing characteristics of this club out as part of the test. If the clubhead wasn't the standard 460 CC, I would point that out. Then we could have a discussion on how some people hit mini drivers better than today's normal sized driver. 

Last question, when you look at MGS driver test for this year, did you look first for the most accurate driver, or did you look for the longest driver? Because you are not that guy that needs a shorter shaft. Am I right?

Edited August 7, 2023 by Beakbryce

[vandyland]

18 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

If 1” is better, is 2” even better than that? How about 3”? Where does it stop? That is what testing and fitting is supposed to accomplish. Has anyone been to a test where the fitter actually stopped trying to fit someone in to a 45.75-46” shaft and went to shorter ones, or did they suggest a different club,

At the last few fittings I have done, I have asked if they have multiple lengths of the same shaft and the response is always 'just grip down farther on the shaft.' Maybe this is an acceptable answer but it has always slightly annoyed me. But maybe it doesn't make financial sense to have three of the same shaft in different lengths? 

18 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

It’s the rare individual today that would willingly buy a driver that’s shorter but straighter.  Human nature after all. I mean, maybe if you hit it 330 and you are going down to 320. Jack Nicklaus, in reference to new golfers, said to learn to hit it long first. I

I might be a rare person but back when I was really struggling, I bought a used Nike Sumo driver that was a 12* head and cut it down to 43" (this was 3 years ago). So basically it was a 460cc 3 wood. I hit a ton of fwys with a terrible swing but was obviously giving up a lot of distance. Every now and then I still take that driver to the range. It was/is a fun experiment. Additionally, if a golf hole is 350 yds or shorter and the landing area is less than 40 yds, I hit my Utility iron (21*). It will roll out to about 220-230 yds and just leave me, at most, a PW into a green. Not exactly what you are talking about but, I guess what I am trying to say is, I really prioritize being in a good position off the tee vs out and out distance. Despite what DECADE and strokes gained tell me. I am not saying they are wrong, I just really hate driving it into trouble. 

18 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

Otherwise, Joe Golfer would be clamoring to join the USGA and play a reduced distance ball.

I am pro-roll back for everyone, also. I would have no problem moving up a tee box and playing from 6,000 or 5,800 yds with a shorter ball. I am not trying to convince anyone that this is right but just wanted to make my stance known. 

18 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

Last question, when you look at MGS driver test for this year, did you look first for the most accurate driver, or did you look for the longest driver?

I looked at forgiveness. Out and out distance generally signalled to me ultra low spin which leads to disaster for me.

 

All in all, I think this is good news @Beakbryce ! We seem like we might be on different sides of this argument and that is GREAT NEWS for any discussion forum, in my opinion. 

[Beakbryce]

37 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I might be a rare person but back when I was really struggling, I bought a used Nike Sumo driver that was a 12* head and cut it down to 43" (this was 3 years ago). So basically it was a 460cc 3 wood. I hit a ton of fwys with a terrible swing but was obviously giving up a lot of distance. Every now and then I still take that driver to the range. It was/is a fun experiment. Additionally, if a golf hole is 350 yds or shorter and the landing area is less than 40 yds, I hit my Utility iron (21*). It will roll out to about 220-230 yds and just leave me, at most, a PW into a green. Not exactly what you are talking about but, I guess what I am trying to say is, I really prioritize being in a good position off the tee vs out and out distance. Despite what DECADE and strokes gained tell me. I am not saying they are wrong, I just really hate driving it into trouble. 

19 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

Otherwise, Joe Golfer would be clamoring to join the USGA and play a reduced distance ball.

I am pro-roll back for everyone, also. I would have no problem moving up a tee box and playing from 6,000 or 5,800 yds with a shorter ball. I am not trying to convince anyone that this is right but just wanted to make my stance known. 

19 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

Last question, when you look at MGS driver test for this year, did you look first for the most accurate driver, or did you look for the longest driver?

I looked at forgiveness. Out and out distance generally signalled to me ultra low spin which leads to disaster for me.

 

All in all, I think this is good news @Beakbryce ! We seem like we might be on different sides of this argument and that is GREAT NEWS for any discussion forum, in my opinion. 

So cool. Maybe take these in order.

I still have my Original Big Bertha. Hang on, I am going to measure the shaft. 42.5 inches and 11 degree loft. I enjoy hitting this club as well. Clearly doesn't go as far as todays Callaway. However, what a great way to force yourself to hit the ball in the center of the face. Part of my position on hit it hard and go find it is based on strokes gained, but actually, more to the fact that I have accomplished all my golf goals. Todays score doesn't matter a twit to me, which allows me to go for everything. In your case, my guess is you have a lot to accomplish in the future and you are finding the best way for you to do it. That's the magic of golf in that you establish your own path to success and there are all kinds of ways to do it. 

I understand people that are pro rollback, especially guys who can hit their utility iron 220-230! Just saying. But the guys I play with max driver out at 220 or so. Some don't hit it 180. You indicated you would move up to tees to 6000 or 5800 but we are already there. What tees are we going to play if they roll the ball back? My wife plays league play from the forward tee, but when we play at the base she plays from the start of the fairway so golf remains fun. However, there isn't a lot of strategy because the hazards aren't placed to catch her drives. Whichever way golf goes, all courses are going to have to re-evaluate fairway bunkers and the like because they won't be optimal. I am not adamant about opposing a rollback, but I am not in favor. They will have to take those Pro V's out of my cold dead hand not in favor. Like everything else in golf, I also don't think there is a right answer for everyone.

It is interesting you mention forgiveness instead of accuracy. The MGS driver testing includes categories for Distance, Accuracy, and Forgiveness. There is a distinction between accuracy and forgiveness. I guess you want all three, but the hunt for the best club for someone is going to prioritize one and maybe 2 of those. If there is ever a club #1 in all three, it would probably cost big bucks.

Your point about ultra low spin is exactly what I was trying to suggest Mizuno has chased down the rabbit hole and it hurts the club we are testing. We are not in disagreement on that. There is a very limited group of golfers that can fully utilize ultra low spin.

I can't wait for your comments on the clubs.

[Swood1994]

20 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

5.      If you feel you need to be 1” closer to the ball for perfect contact, you could just stand a little taller or you can just choke up. Why take the length option out of play when you don't need to? There are a lot of holes where crooked is less important than max length.

I've been trying to keep up with all of this as I do not have a ton of knowledge on how shaft lengths affect swing weight (learning as I go) but IMO the only piece missing on this is when a shaft is cut down or lengthened from standard it changes the shaft profile dynamics. So my question would be for those who would benefit from a stiffer shaft but not quite X-stiff they can cut a 60G Stiff shaft down 1/2''-3/4'' to achieve a slightly stiffer more stable profile whereas choking up on the grip will not achieve the same results.

All in all I think this topic on length comes down to personal preference and what a proper fitting tells you. I've always played standard length drivers but as we found in this thread "standard" is only relative to the OEM. I went from a Sim 2 Max to a Paradym. Both play at 45.75''. If my distance stays relatively the same (+/-5 yards) but my dispersion tightens up drastically I will be very pleased (obviously). This will result in me testing a 45'' low spin shaft in my Paradym to see if that variable is the cause for better drives. I am testing the ST-X (if it ever arrives) so it will be a little spinier than the ST-Z.
 

Now back to shaft lengths and the effects on distance, I am shocked that the Mizuno 4 Hybrid didn't achieve the same distance as your big bertha mainly because according to the spec sheets the ST-Z 230 4H is 40.5" whereas the Callaway's 4H (Big Bertha & Rogue) are 40". So theoretically the Mizuno should be longer.

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, Beakbryce said:

My wife plays league play from the forward tee, but when we play at the base she plays from the start of the fairway so golf remains fun.

A totally separate topic but the way they treat women in golf (and especially from a design setup) it is amazing any woman even plays. Most of the courses I played in the last few years seemed to regard the forward/ladies/whatever tees you want to call them as an AFTERTHOUGHT. It was just like 99% of the course's design efforts were on the tips and maybe the one up tees and then just "put the senior tees 25 yds closer and then the forward tees another 20 yds closer." As someone who would play the front tees once or twice a year (just to see if I could go "low" and I usually couldn't) I was always shocked at the lack of effort there. 

1 hour ago, Beakbryce said:

You indicated you would move up to tees to 6000 or 5800 but we are already there. What tees are we going to play if they roll the ball back?

This is a good point. My optimistic answer is that the course would already have the footprint to accommodate shorter tees (they don't need to acquire land to make the course shorter obviously). But I take your point. Most people are in the camp of no-rollback including plenty of people who know more about golf than I ever could. 

1 hour ago, Beakbryce said:

It is interesting you mention forgiveness instead of accuracy. The MGS driver testing includes categories for Distance, Accuracy, and Forgiveness. There is a distinction between accuracy and forgiveness. I guess you want all three, but the hunt for the best club for someone is going to prioritize one and maybe 2 of those. If there is ever a club #1 in all three, it would probably cost big bucks.

At the moment, I am actually okay with my distance. Of course I would like to hit it farther but I am hitting it farther than I ever have with a Cobra driver that is two cycles old at this point. I can reach all the par 4s in regulation and while it would be nice to reach all the par 5s in two, I don't think that should be an expectation at my level. None of this is me bragging and I of course would take more distance if given to me but.....not at the expense of accuracy. 

So yes, accuracy is important but I lean toward forgiveness because I KNOW I miss the dead center of my driver fairly often. My cobra has a matte black face and I can see ball marks each time I hit a drive and I tend to drive a little high toe most of the time though heel strikes get mixed in too. Those are the real killers. They come out mega spinny and I lose both distance and some accuracy in that event. I am not asking or expecting a driver to autocorrect my bad driving. 

I know I said in my intro that success would be more distance but I think that was the easy way out. That is the easiest thing to measure. But when I look at driver, I still have a pretty big dispersion pattern which I have chalked up to missing the sweet spot more than "accuracy" of the clubhead itself, if that makes sense? Maybe I am wrong. Here (at the risk of embarrassment) are my driving stats the last several rounds:

The good news is that there are no balls OB out there but the bad news is overall dispersion. Fairways hit is not the most telling stat (and can be useless in some moments) but 35% seems quite low. I feel like better dispersion would be more helpful than more distance. So maybe that is accuracy after all @Beakbryce.

 

[Beakbryce]

4 hours ago, Swood1994 said:

Now back to shaft lengths and the effects on distance, I am shocked that the Mizuno 4 Hybrid didn't achieve the same distance as your big bertha mainly because according to the spec sheets the ST-Z 230 4H is 40.5" whereas the Callaway's 4H (Big Bertha & Rogue) are 40". So theoretically the Mizuno should be longer.

Ok. That perked me up. I put them side by side and they are the same length. Not sure what the spec sheet has going on. The BB 19 has the Mamiya Recoil Shaft and it's a doozy. I really wish we could have gone outside the standard shaft offerings with the Mizuno's because I believe that shaft, at least for me, is a rocket. Don't get me wrong, I get why standard shafts are a requirement.

The recoil shaft is in my 6 and 7 hybrid as well. If my new 8,9,PW Rogue ST Max irons don't perform, that shaft is going in. BTW, the irons have been just fine. Great irons.

I don't have an answer for the distance discrepancy, but it has only been hit only 3 times. Maybe getting it hit in will help. I will swing it every day on my mat to help it along, although I am not playing it until everyone else has clubs.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Beakbryce

[Beakbryce]

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

At the moment, I am actually okay with my distance. Of course I would like to hit it farther but I am hitting it farther than I ever have with a Cobra driver that is two cycles old at this point. I can reach all the par 4s in regulation and while it would be nice to reach all the par 5s in two, I don't think that should be an expectation at my level. None of this is me bragging and I of course would take more distance if given to me but.....not at the expense of accuracy. 

So yes, accuracy is important but I lean toward forgiveness because I KNOW I miss the dead center of my driver fairly often. My cobra has a matte black face and I can see ball marks each time I hit a drive and I tend to drive a little high toe most of the time though heel strikes get mixed in too. Those are the real killers. They come out mega spinny and I lose both distance and some accuracy in that event. I am not asking or expecting a driver to autocorrect my bad driving. 

I know I said in my intro that success would be more distance but I think that was the easy way out. That is the easiest thing to measure. But when I look at driver, I still have a pretty big dispersion pattern which I have chalked up to missing the sweet spot more than "accuracy" of the clubhead itself, if that makes sense? Maybe I am wrong. Here (at the risk of embarrassment) are my driving stats the last several rounds:

 

Nothing wrong with those stats if you can hit the par 4s in regulation. Sure, you want to try to hit more fairways by hitting in the center of the club face. That's a good goal. Maybe an instructor can give you a setup or swing path that can help that out so your clubhead speed becomes even more of an asset. It will be interesting to see if the Mizuno matches your Cobra.

Are you trying to hit it straight? If you develop a shot one way or the other, draw or fade, you can actually end up with more fairway to play with.

You are correct that it would be hard for a driver to autocorrect your swing as you have a 2 way miss. When it is down to one way, you can do a lot of things with an adjustable driver.

BTW, what are you using to chart your drives? I guess I don't understand it as some on the 0 degree line indicate rough. Are you hitting through the fairway on a dogleg?

[Beakbryce]

4 hours ago, Swood1994 said:

I've been trying to keep up with all of this as I do not have a ton of knowledge on how shaft lengths affect swing weight (learning as I go) but IMO the only piece missing on this is when a shaft is cut down or lengthened from standard it changes the shaft profile dynamics. So my question would be for those who would benefit from a stiffer shaft but not quite X-stiff they can cut a 60G Stiff shaft down 1/2''-3/4'' to achieve a slightly stiffer more stable profile whereas choking up on the grip will not achieve the same results.

There is debate about this but many sites indicate that either choking down or cutting down results in a slightly stiffer shaft. I don't know how we could test that. Would take some equipment.

[Swood1994]

1 hour ago, Beakbryce said:

I will swing it every day on my mat to help it along, although I am not playing it until everyone else has clubs.

You might be waiting a very long time! Haha

[vandyland]

20 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

BTW, what are you using to chart your drives? I guess I don't understand it as some on the 0 degree line indicate rough. Are you hitting through the fairway on a dogleg?

I use the TaylorMade MyRound Pro app which is like a gps tracker that marks your shots as you hit them. I agree there is some weird data on that scatter plot. May not be entirely reliable. However, as you mentioned, there are several doglegs that I routinely hit it dead straight on and run thru the fwy when the draw doesn't come out. And There are a few bifurcated fairways with rough in the middle though actually. I find the yardages to be very accurate but sometimes it doesn't map the fairway exactly right.  

I can reflect on my last round and recall that, with driver, I had the following results (5/10 fairways). My right miss is a block (almost always) and my left miss is a draw. I don't really hit a fade or slice hardly ever. Typically it doesn't feel like spin is making me miss fairways but more my path which is dictated mostly by my hips and shoulders either being in or out of sequence. 

Hole 3: Pull, slight draw - 275 yds into left rough - missed fwy
Hole 4: Draw around dogleg - 288 yds into fairway
Hole 6: Pull hook - 266 yds into left trees/rough - missed fwy
Hole 8: Over draw - 270 yds - left rough missed fwy
Hole 9: Dead straight - 285 yds - fairway
Hole 10: Slight draw - 293 yds - fairway
Hole 12: Block - 277 yds - right rough missed fwy
Hole 15: Pull - 266 yds - left rough
Hole 17: Draw - 270 yds - fairway
Hole 18: Draw - 280 yds - fairway

 

Also, STILL NO SHIPPING NOTIFICATION! I am hoping I can get something by Labor Day at this point!

Edited August 9, 2023 by vandyland

[russtopherb]

5 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Also, STILL NO SHIPPING NOTIFICATION! I am hoping I can get something by Labor Day at this point!

I'm kind of getting jealous of the Caley iron testers who are already getting notice their clubs will be arriving in a few days all the way from England... I've got a round next weekend with my brother and his brother-in-law who I've known for 30 years, they're the perfect golfers to put those Mizunos in the hands of to see what they think of them and how they work out. Fingers crossed we hear something soon... chatter around the web is that orders placed with Mizuno at the end of June are starting to arrive 

[Beakbryce]

41 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Hole 3: Pull, slight draw - 275 yds into left rough - missed fwy
Hole 4: Draw around dogleg - 288 yds into fairway
Hole 6: Pull hook - 266 yds into left trees/rough - missed fwy
Hole 8: Over draw - 270 yds - left rough missed fwy
Hole 9: Dead straight - 285 yds - fairway
Hole 10: Slight draw - 293 yds - fairway
Hole 12: Block - 277 yds - right rough missed fwy
Hole 15: Pull - 266 yds - left rough
Hole 17: Draw - 270 yds - fairway
Hole 18: Draw - 280 yds - fairway

I remember when my numbers resembled these... oh, so so long ago! 

Just looking at it, it looks like you have a natural draw. Maybe ball position? With a natural draw, if the normal position is moved up slightly, pull draw to hook, ball back slightly, block or push. 

With those numbers, I can't wait for you to hit the Mizuno to see what's what. I really don't want to be the lone voice in the wilderness.

Killed my Epics yesterday and today. Well, for me anyway.

[Beakbryce]

20 hours ago, Swood1994 said:

You might be waiting a very long time! Haha

Say it ain't so, Joe!

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, russtopherb said:

chatter around the web is that orders placed with Mizuno at the end of June are starting to arrive 

Based on the messaging with Bryan our orders were submitted somewhere around July 3rd, right? No one is going to feel sorry for us but by getting involved in this test I went from loving my driver to now desperately wanting to replace it with this new tech. I have watched like 10+ Mizuno STZ driver review videos and I can't wait to get it in my hands. And I really like the headcover too, as stupid as that might sound. Typically I don't keep or use stock headcovers but that Mizuno headcover is amazing looking. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Realizing I have yet to check into this thread. I love this test and the Ping one was one of my all time favourites. I know not all the clubs will make the final cut, but very much looking forward to seeing how the drivers stack up!

[russtopherb]

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

Based on the messaging with Bryan our orders were submitted somewhere around July 3rd, right? No one is going to feel sorry for us but by getting involved in this test I went from loving my driver to now desperately wanting to replace it with this new tech. I have watched like 10+ Mizuno STZ driver review videos and I can't wait to get it in my hands. And I really like the headcover too, as stupid as that might sound. Typically I don't keep or use stock headcovers but that Mizuno headcover is amazing looking. 

I think I’ve OD’d on YT reviews of this line. Driver has me hyped but honestly I think the fairway is what I’m really itching to get in the bag. July 3 is the date everything was in by so I’m hopeful for a shipping notice soon.