How beneficial is a fitting?

[Brian Parkinson]

Been taking lessons, and per my Skytrak, it was probably time for a new driver.  I had been swinging in the low to mid 90's and at 5000' elevation was getting an average drive of 260-270 with 230-240 of carry and spin rates in the 2,200 range.  As a result of the lessons, I started overspeed swing training and got my swing speed up to 105-110.  However the spin rate went up to avg over 3,000 with my old 44.5" Cobra F8.  I lowered the adjustable loft to 9* and switched the 6/16g weights to the 16 in the hosel position (even though I already play a draw) and the 6 in back.  To no avail - still spinning over 3k and my 10-15 mph speed increase netting me maybe 10 yards more distance.  

So I went to PGA superstore and got fit.  They did a great job and let me try 6 different drivers that I had identified as candidates that would probably work for me based on the MSG most wanted results.  I also took my old F8 (which according to their GC3 was going 290 with 2,800 rpm) as a baseline and to make sure that anything was significantly better than I already had.  After warming up and hitting several balls with each driver, they showed me the metrics and I would say did a very good job of zeroing in on what worked the best for me.  They actually increased me from a 9* up to a 10* so i could get more spin using the TSR3 which was giving me the optimal results (and a 305 yard total and 2,300 rpm)  Per the baseline I noticed a significant increase in ball speed and reduction in spin.  The net gain was a 15 yards.  Overall, I thought their fitter did a great job.

Then I went to the course the next day and couldn't replicate the results at all.  Went home to my skytrak and tried to figure it out.  Ball speed was still good, but the spin went back up and i wasn't getting the great numbers anymore and had picked up a nasty slice.  

My question is, can anyone really tell from 10-20 drives in a hitting bay or range session that they have the best club for their game?  Especially since we all have good days and bad days, which obviously means our swings vary from day to day.  It is somewhat frustrating because a lot of review sites make it sound like fitting session are the holy grail but after my experience I almost wonder how much better off I am than getting as much information as possible and just buying off the rack (usually at a cheaper price).   If being fit is superior I almost think it would take several sessions in several different locations so you can see how the club works with different perspectives.

[cnosil]

41 minutes ago, Brian Parkinson said:

My question is, can anyone really tell from 10-20 drives in a hitting bay or range session that they have the best club for their game?  Especially since we all have good days and bad days, which obviously means our swings vary from day to day.  It is somewhat frustrating because a lot of review sites make it sound like fitting session are the holy grail but after my experience I almost wonder how much better off I am than getting as much information as possible and just buying off the rack (usually at a cheaper price).   If being fit is superior I almost think it would take several sessions in several different locations so you can see how the club works with different perspectives.

IMO, yes a good fitter can identify the right equipment in less than 5 swings for how you are swinging the club.  People seem to think that their swings change a from day to day, but they really don’t change enough that it would influence what equipment works.   If you get to 10-20 swings with a club, you have figured out how to better swing the club.  But, some people don’t swing well or don’t like being in an indoor bay and that does influence swing.   
 

launch monitors measure things difference especially spin; some actually measure and some calculate so when switching you need to establish baselines.   Meaning spin on one launch monitor won’t match spin on another.   
 

also, you keep discussing total distance,  when looking at fitting information, you should look at carry as the ground conditions significantly influence distance; you can even alter the ground firmness on launch monitors.  

did you purchase the driver you were hitting in the bay or a different one?  Manufacturers have tolerances and the club you bought might have more or less loft and the shaft could also be a little different.  For most people might not  be a big thing and for others it could be huge.  

the next question is did you try a and do things different on the course?  Did you think I’ve been fit, I can swing harder/faster than I did during the fitting.  You mentioned a slice after the round, did that happened during the round?   What distances were you seeing on the course?  
 

 

 

[NM01]

The fitting is only as good as the fitter and as good as the communication between fitter and golfer.

A good fitter is going to be able to get a golfer dialed into an optimized fit in a1-1.5 hour fitting. Golfers that are pretty consistent in their swing it could be done in less time.

A good fitter is going to understand the golf wing and what the golfer is doing in th swing and why it’s producing the results they get. If there is good communication between the fitter and golfer it’s going to make the process a lot better and the fitter can make better choices on what to change. They also understand the lm numbers and how they correlate to what the golfer is doing.

The good fitter is going to put the golfer in a combo that optimizes the ball flight so that on good shots the golfer will be rewarded and on mishits the penalty won’t be as severe. What they can’t do is eliminate that real bad swing, everyone has those including pros.

The problem is that many times the golfer goes into a fitting and doesn’t use their normal swing and especially with driver they try to max out to get the most distance from the ne driver. Then they end up with a bad fit and unplayable driver on the course.

What you had wasn’t a fitting, unless you pay for the tour van fitting at pgasuperstore you aren’t getting a good fitting. And even the tour van fitting isn’t going to be a guarantee for a good fitting because the fitter may be not so good.

1 hour ago, Brian Parkinson said:

I also took my old F8 (which according to their GC3 was going 290 with 2,800 rpm) as a baseline and to make sure that anything was significantly better than I already had.  After warming up and hitting several balls with each driver, they showed me the metrics and I would say did a very good job of zeroing in on what worked the best for me.  They actually increased me from a 9* up to a 10* so i could get more spin using the TSR3 which was giving me the optimal results (and a 305 yard total and 2,300 rpm)  Per the baseline I noticed a significant increase in ball speed and reduction in spin.  The net gain was a 15 yards.  Overall, I thought their fitter did a great job.

You state the fitter increased the loft to get more spin yet you dropped 500rpm from your old driver so you didn’t get more spin.

What were all your launch monitor numbers such as carry distance, dynamic loft, launch, aoa, peak height and descent angle for your driver and then for the tsr3?

1 hour ago, Brian Parkinson said:

So I went to PGA superstore and got fit.  They did a great job and let me try 6 different drivers that I had identified as candidates that would probably work for me based on the MSG most wanted results. 

Did they change shafts in any of them? Did they use the same shaft in all of them? Did the fitter mess with any of the adapter settings?

how many swings did you take with each setup, including any changes to the setup?

[Brian Parkinson]

While my swing was completely different, I would say it had more to do with being indoors vs. outdoors.  I think the GC3/Foresight use the same but better/updated (high-speed photo) tech as the skytrak so both should theoretically be similar.   I hit a draw 90%+ typically.  Something with the optics of the club was screwing with my head and i was leaving it wide open - again an issue with a different swing, but probably more because I wasn't inside a bay, but on a course without the same framing, and no real consequence for a bad line.

I haven't given up on the club, but given the very limited results since purchase, I don't really think the fitting netted any better result than off the rack.

[Brian Parkinson]

Yes - initially spin went down.  They didn't use different shafts - I did ask if there were certain shafts that would help with lower spin, but based on readings they were trying my spin up.  They said it wasn't high enough with aerojet, srixon, or titleist.  Didn't tinker with adapter.  I have since set it to a draw, but it's only an 8gram moveable weight that really doesn't shift center of gravity much.  While I typically pay attention to carry at home (since my course overwaters - in a severe drought state no less...I'm on the golf board and I can't get them to stop) and you don't get any roll.  But I wasn't familiar enough with the GC3 printouts to see that - was focusing on spin, ball speed, yardage and ball flight.

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, Brian Parkinson said:

While my swing was completely different, I would say it had more to do with being indoors vs. outdoors.  I think the GC3/Foresight use the same but better/updated (high-speed photo) tech as the skytrak so both should theoretically be similar.   I hit a draw 90%+ typically.  Something with the optics of the club was screwing with my head and i was leaving it wide open - again an issue with a different swing, but probably more because I wasn't inside a bay, but on a course without the same framing, and no real consequence for a bad line.

GC3 is significantly better than Skytrak,  more cameras and better at reading spin.

 

I think you answered your original  question in this response.  
 

[NM01]

3 minutes ago, Brian Parkinson said:

Yes - initially spin went down.  They didn't use different shafts - I did ask if there were certain shafts that would help with lower spin, but based on readings they were trying my spin up.  They said it wasn't high enough with aerojet, srixon, or titleist.  Didn't tinker with adapter.  I have since set it to a draw, but it's only an 8gram moveable weight that really doesn't shift center of gravity much.  While I typically pay attention to carry at home (since my course overwaters - in a severe drought state no less...I'm on the golf board and I can't get them to stop) and you don't get any roll.  But I wasn't familiar enough with the GC3 printouts to see that - was focusing on spin, ball speed, yardage and ball flight.

You didn’t get a fitting. You for a demo day.

If you have the data sheet the numbers and information should be on there.

All the numbers stated are important and tell he whole story about why spin is what it is.

16 minutes ago, Brian Parkinson said:

While my swing was completely different, I would say it had more to do with being indoors vs. outdoors.  I think the GC3/Foresight use the same but better/updated (high-speed photo) tech as the skytrak so both should theoretically be similar.   I hit a draw 90%+ typically.  Something with the optics of the club was screwing with my head and i was leaving it wide open - again an issue with a different swing, but probably more because I wasn't inside a bay, but on a course without the same framing, and no real consequence for a bad line.

I haven't given up on the club, but given the very limited results since purchase, I don't really think the fitting netted any better result than off the rack.

This also indicates why the difference and what i pointed out about how some golfers have a different swing at fittings. The indoor vs outdoor is a big issue for some just like the all out swing in a fitting but not an all out swing on a course.

 

To sum it up you didn’t get a firing, you just tried some clubs the person gave you.

You ended up with a club that worked for the swing in the bay and not your swing.

I don’t know what pgasuperstore return policy is but I would look to ditch the driver and find an outdoor fitting with a good fitter instead of trying to make a club work which will more than likely cause you to develop bad habits in your swing to manipulate the swing to get the club to work 

[knotthead17]

Maybe this speaks more to my own inconsistencies but I feel like I need to try some thing several times over several days hitting many, many shots before I feel confident. I think I went back-and-forth between two different iron heads and two different iron shafts for like three months before I chose. It's probably just in my nature to be a skeptic.

I will say that I've probably had more bad fittings than good fittings. You can go to five different fitters for one driver and get five different recommendations--not only five different recommendations but they can be wildly different. It took a long time for me to realize the difference in a good fit her in a bad fitter so I just went many times until I saw the same or similar results a few times

[Grasmere5]

The OP has asked my own question.

4 years ago I went for a fitting for new irons, it was actually a ‘try these irons and tell me which you prefer”. As it happens, the irons, though standard everything, have been brilliant, but NO thanks to the person ‘fitter’ who simply let me try different clubs and choose my preferred option.

Roll forward to last week, I went for a driver assessment/ potential fitting at the same place. It’s a superb setup with trackman, all the latest gear and an abundance of shafts. 
Unfortunately it was the same guy who sold me the irons. Anyway, I thought I would give him  the benefit of doubt!

Unfortunately it was as expected. Despite explaining why I was there, “to assess my driving technique for an increase in distance (losing 2 shots gained according to my arccos stats) with a secondary view of a new driver FITTED to best suit me.

All we did was an alternative club demo! Despite me asking  “where does tee height/club loft/shaft options/grip size/other!” 
Anyway, I later called the owner to express my incredible disappointment- he was gutted, even saying himself “I wonder how many sales we’ve lost because others experienced the same?” 
He insisted on refunding my session fee.

So - I will persevere with a fitted driver, some research suggests the things to be considered in no particular order are:

My current swing and strike tendencies
The actual build club to be supplied v test/demo club in detail
Distance matters
shaft, swing point/weight,
Tee height
Spin 
Head loft 
Grip selection
Retest original driver
Fit driver to preferred ball (advanced)
Data of my shots
Demo club v finished build

 

[NM01]

44 minutes ago, Grasmere5 said:

The OP has asked my own question.

4 years ago I went for a fitting for new irons, it was actually a ‘try these irons and tell me which you prefer”. As it happens, the irons, though standard everything, have been brilliant, but NO thanks to the person ‘fitter’ who simply let me try different clubs and choose my preferred option.

Roll forward to last week, I went for a driver assessment/ potential fitting at the same place. It’s a superb setup with trackman, all the latest gear and an abundance of shafts. 
Unfortunately it was the same guy who sold me the irons. Anyway, I thought I would give him  the benefit of doubt!

Unfortunately it was as expected. Despite explaining why I was there, “to assess my driving technique for an increase in distance (losing 2 shots gained according to my arccos stats) with a secondary view of a new driver FITTED to best suit me.

All we did was an alternative club demo! Despite me asking  “where does tee height/club loft/shaft options/grip size/other!” 
Anyway, I later called the owner to express my incredible disappointment- he was gutted, even saying himself “I wonder how many sales we’ve lost because others experienced the same?” 
He insisted on refunding my session fee.

So - I will persevere with a fitted driver, some research suggests the things to be considered in no particular order are:

My current swing and strike tendencies
The actual build club to be supplied v test/demo club in detail
Distance matters
shaft, swing point/weight,
Tee height
Spin 
Head loft 
Grip selection
Retest original driver
Fit driver to preferred ball (advanced)
Data of my shots
Demo club v finished build

 

Theres a fitting and then there’s club demos.

there’s a big difference in the two.

This isn’t a fitting in any definition.

As I’ve said and others too in many threads, a fitting is only as good as the fitter and then as good as the the golfers communication with the fitter.

now a fitting isn’t trying every club in every loft setting and shaft, but it should involve 3-5 shots with a setup, fitter gets the feedback, uses his eyes on ball flight (assuming outdoors) looks at numbers if he/she needs to, make adjustments and rinse repeat. Then once it’s narrowed down to a subset of the testing start fine tuning.

[revkev]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:27 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Theres a fitting and then there’s club demos.

there’s a big difference in the two.

This isn’t a fitting in any definition.

As I’ve said and others too in many threads, a fitting is only as good as the fitter and then as good as the the golfers communication with the fitter.

now a fitting isn’t trying every club in every loft setting and shaft, but it should involve 3-5 shots with a setup, fitter gets the feedback, uses his eyes on ball flight (assuming outdoors) looks at numbers if he/she needs to, make adjustments and rinse repeat. Then once it’s narrowed down to a subset of the testing start fine tuning.

In the end the statement about a fitting being only as good as the fitter is really what matters - 

 

I certainly would not consider what the OP had a fitting.  I'd also say, with all due respect, that if it seems too good to be true someone is juicing the numbers.  With a swing speed of 95 something in the 260 range at altitude is very good, 270 pretty much maxed out.  You'd need to be hitting it significantly downhill, downwind or on tarmak to be hitting it 305 - it was improbable that you were going to get those results at that swing speed.  This a tip off that this place was not on the up and up the day you were there.  IMO

 

BTW I found a driver that I was extremely successful with by going through something like you described at an Edwin Watts about 15 years ago. I doubt I could have found a better "fit" had I had a real bonafide fitting.  I played lots of great rounds with that driver - it was some sort of Mizuno - I must have tried every driver that they had in the store that day. 

[RoverRick]

I went to an unofficial LAB Putter fitting this morning. All with the Direct Force DF2.1. I made about half the putts with the putters in various specs. Then found the right specs and sank 8/8 10’ putts. Swapped back and fourth same results. Made half and lipped out the rest. Correct specs drained them all. 
 

I said unofficial because they want to do the online fitting which I just completed. I’ve not heard the results of that one yet. 

[revkev]

9 hours ago, RoverRick said:

I went to an unofficial LAB Putter fitting this morning. All with the Direct Force DF2.1. I made about half the putts with the putters in various specs. Then found the right specs and sank 8/8 10’ putts. Swapped back and fourth same results. Made half and lipped out the rest. Correct specs drained them all. 
 

I said unofficial because they want to do the online fitting which I just completed. I’ve not heard the results of that one yet. 

Should hear back today - how did they do the fitting live? It seems like they’d need a lot of putters on hand. I’m very curious as to how that works. 

[RoverRick]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

Should hear back today - how did they do the fitting live? It seems like they’d need a lot of putters on hand. I’m very curious as to how that works. 

Nope. Just 1. 
 

LAB makes a fitting putter. It has an adjustable shaft for length and an adjustable lie via loosening a screw. However, it doesn’t have the weighting system and is not intended to make putts with. 
 

While the guy was rounding up his tools, I was standing on their putting green next to the several putters they had with balls on the floor. What was I supposed to do? Wait? I think not. 
 

So I started grabbing putters. They had five different Directed Force putters. I tried them all. Like I said. The first 3 or 4 don’t really count because I wasn’t familiar with anything about the putter. First was way short, then barely short. Then left then right, then center, then left. When I came to the 35” 69° I sank 8/8. He then got they gizmos working. Set up fitting putter and measured 70°. Honestly, at that point I would have ordered the 69° because that’s what I sank putts with. 
 

Last night, I did the on line fitting, and he recommended 70°. . I ordered 35” 70°. 
 

Does 1° matter on a 10’ putt on astroturf? I can see it matters in the weighting process, but I’ll cover this more in the LAB Golf thread. My point here was the closer I got to my ideal specs the easier it was to make a good stroke. 

[revkev]

Thanks 

[ole gray]

You may or may not know however I am one of the Testers for the new Titleist T Series irons.   My fitting ended up being standard length with 2 degrees flat lie and Mitsubishi Fubuki MV IR A Flex Shat which kind of surprised me.  However, once he made this adjustment my ball flight and dispersion improved greatly I knew this was not a mistake.

 Last year I went through an extensive fitting at the Taylormade Kingdom at Lake Oconee, Ga. This is where the Taylormade Tour Players on the East Coast go for new club fittings etc. After that fitting, the fitter came up with the Taylormade HD irons at + 1/2 length and 1 degree upright and UST Recoil Dart Senior Shafts.  

Anyway, yesterday I took my Callaway Apex DCB irons in had them bent to -2 flat, and went to the range today.  Wow, the proper fit does the trick!

The club repair shop is well know for quality work and dependability.  It is in a little town called Winder, Ga. 19 miles from my home.  Well worth the trip!  These small shops are a gold nugget in the club repair world. 
 

 

[fixyurdivot]

Are clubs fitting being over-hyped/marketed - probably.  That said, with a competent fitter, I think they are very beneficial, particularly if you've never had a fitting and have not establsihed your base numbers.  No, they are not the Holy Grail and if you bring a really crappy and inconsistent swing it will be problematic. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:10 PM, cnosil said:

IMO, yes a good fitter can identify the right equipment in less than 5 swings for how you are swinging the club.  People seem to think that their swings change a from day to day, but they really don’t change enough that it would influence what equipment works.   If you get to 10-20 swings with a club, you have figured out how to better swing the club.  But, some people don’t swing well or don’t like being in an indoor bay and that does influence swing.   
 

launch monitors measure things difference especially spin; some actually measure and some calculate so when switching you need to establish baselines.   Meaning spin on one launch monitor won’t match spin on another.   
 

also, you keep discussing total distance,  when looking at fitting information, you should look at carry as the ground conditions significantly influence distance; you can even alter the ground firmness on launch monitors.  

did you purchase the driver you were hitting in the bay or a different one?  Manufacturers have tolerances and the club you bought might have more or less loft and the shaft could also be a little different.  For most people might not  be a big thing and for others it could be huge.  

the next question is did you try a and do things different on the course?  Did you think I’ve been fit, I can swing harder/faster than I did during the fitting.  You mentioned a slice after the round, did that happened during the round?   What distances were you seeing on the course?  
 

 

 

Exactly what @cnosil said. A good fitter can do all of this in very few swings and put you into something that will work better for you with your swing. Can't add much much, but this post hits the spot with a lot of how I feel on fittings etc. 

[Josh Parker]

I had never been fitted for clubs until just recently.  I have owned some clubs that I hit well but always had a low penetrating flight and trouble getting the ball to launch.  I did an iron fitting with CC because they had a large number of lefty clubs and I couldn't be happier about the immediate return on investment from the fitting.  My fitter was able to dial things in pretty quickly and I am actually hitting them better on the course than on the indoor simulator.  

[NM01]

11 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

No, they are not the Holy Grail

Pretty accurate. For some it can have a somewhat immediate change because they aren’t fighting the club, but for most it won’t be an immediate drop in scores 

 

11 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

if you bring a really crappy and inconsistent swing it will be problematic. 

Yes and no. A competent fitter who understands the swing can 1) give a quick tip and get the golfer on track see @Golfspy_CG2 TXG fitting 2) can get enough useful information out of the golfer to get them into clubs that help them on their good swings and their bad 

Now a no if one comes in day for a driver fitting and they start swinging out of their shoes when that’s not their on course swing, or they try to do something in the fitting that’s different from their normal swing. But if one comes in and things are just off that day which for me I can tell when warming up before the fitting starts that we aren’t going to get any benefit out of the fitting. This happened with my first g400 fitting 

[KC Golf]

I echo these comments from some of the experts.  As a non industry guy, I think it’s important to ask questions about various aspects of your fitting with your fitter.  I usually end up with a couple of viable options and I ask the fitter why should I choose this one vs another.  Why is he recommending one over the others.  I have found I pick a shaft that I can grow a bit into so when my speed goes up during the season from more frequent play it performs in ideal speed and launch conditions.  I also look and ask fitters about the cost benefit between stock and upcharge shafts as well.  Good fitters work within your budget and fit you to the ideal parameters without breaking the bank.

Lastly, I think finding an outdoor fitting with a good LM and your own exact ball type is great, indoor is about the same, but I find it nice to see how something launches and looks in an outdoor bay.

[Javs]

https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/the-game/10-things-all-great-golfers-dont-do-194473?utm_term=CFEB69DA-8695-406A-822D-71925C4B6E39&utm_campaign=075440B8-601C-4440-A9B1-8A7444061AA8&utm_medium=email&utm_content=4BE8FE4A-BD8D-4EED-A924-85AFDF8F5B12&utm_source=SmartBrief
 

Interesting article and it makes perfect sense.