Calling Out Cheating (again)

[Middler]

In my every Monday group of 16, there was some defined leniency on cleaning balls/improving lies over the winter. We all ante up $5 to play for $80 in prizes after - but we all play for camaraderie above scoring/winning. But as of May 1, we're all supposed to play golf by the rules. The guy that runs the group specifically told us all on the first tee, from now on until next Winter, "play the ball as it lies. If you see another player doing otherwise, call him on it."

Sure enough on the fifth hole, a player (with a long standing reputation for not playing by the rules) hit his drive into the first cut of rough in a low lying muddy area, and asked another player about getting relief - I was within earshot of that discussion. He was told to play it as it lies unless it's embedded (it was not). I watched him roll the ball over once or twice after that, then on #10 he missed the green short right and I watched him roll his ball over to improve his lie. When he got on the green I said 'I'm not asking you take a penalty, but I saw you roll your ball over before you chipped, and you can't do that. We were told on the first tee." He said, "OK, I am out of the hole" to which I said "no, finish the hole and just don't do it again." He picked up his ball anyway, we all pick up after bogey for pace of play - no Stableford points. He was obviously mad at me, and took it out on all three of us, mostly me. He double bogeyed the next 6 holes, played horribly, and made us all uncomfortable - mostly the silent treatment. Walking down the fairway on #13, another guy told me "boy, he's REALLY mad at you." I said "I know, but I've called him on cheating before (as have a few others, but not most), and this did not have to be a big deal. I did not ask him to pick up or take a penalty." The other guy agreed.

While he was still mad at me/us, after 6 doubles, the cheater finished par, par, birdie. Might have cooled off, but he didn't hang around to socialize after.

I take it most people just let cheating go (and I'm one of a very few designated asshats), because everyone else knows the guys cheats, some occasionally call him on it, but no one wants to boot the guy.

Don't know if I'm just venting, or asking if I should just let it go like 80%+ of others do. It seems as long as most people don't call out cheating, the perps are going to assume those who do are being asshats...

[revkev]

I feel for you on this / you need to be true to yourself - if you’re a person who hangs on to his cheating internally and it upsets you, then by all means call it. You aren’t breaking the rules, he is, you shouldn’t have your day ruined by him.

 

He should play by the rules or find another group that doesn’t. I’ve played in leagues, groups that play by the rules and have had people peace because of it. 

[chisag]

... It is just still amazing to me that people of low moral character always take offense at being called on their low moral character. In another thread I talked about confronting the group in front if us for driving their carts right next to the tee box and on the fringes of greens. All were in their 50's or 40's and certainly didn't seem to have any physical restrictions, just lazy and inconsiderate of the course and the rules. I didn't seek them out but only said something after waiting on the 9th tee when one asked "how's it going?" and I politely told him not so good watching the group in front destroy the grass riding/parking on the tee boxes and greens. They acted like I was the azzhat and started cussing me out, telling me to mind my own business and I should drink more beer. Why did I have to hurry to the tee just to accuse them of "having fun?" and thankfully my partner said we didn't confront them til he asked and even then I was polite while they were anything but. They stormed off the tee pretty mad.

.. Golf is a game of honor where we are all expected to protect the field whether they are cheating while playing, not replacing divots, raking sand traps or repairing ball marks or driving their carts where they don't belong. That said, I just read where some golfer in Florida attacked a couple for walking on the course beating the husband with a golf club and sending him to the hospital and he went to jail. Protecting the field isn't always a safe option these days. 

[StrokerAce]

I'm not condoning what that guy did; that's bush league and belongs somewhere else and you should be proud of calling him on it. funny how he didn't deny it right away, he knew he'd been caught.

I've been on both sides of that. 
My buddy and I joined a league last year and you have to keep a GHIN. Best score on the hole between partners wins that hole.
We always enter our scores; whether it's a 78 or 98. Totally above board and we expect everyone else to as well.

On one side we were called cheaters after the 3rd hole, the team we were playing was just one guy since his partner was out and the match had no bearing on the playoffs.
I played the first 3 holes well and went par, birdie, par - he asked if I was a 9 HC and said yes and he's an 11. He said bullsh**, tore up the card and told us to eff off and he doesn't play with sandbaggers.
I think I finished 4 or 5 over on the day.
Funny thing is we were due to play him and his partner the next week in the first round of the playoffs and true to his word, he didn't show up.

On the other side- Championship match we play a father/son duo. 
Son is a legit 6 and dad is listed as a 12.
Son is spraying the ball and not playing well, dad is getting up and down from everywhere and 1 putting greens.
It's clear he's not a 12 and the kid is just having a bad day. 
We look him up in GHIN and sure enough, he's not recording scores regularly and the ones he does record are low to mid 40's for 9 holes.
We ask other guys in the league and he's a notorious sandbagger - entering higher scores than what he shot.
We closed them out 6 and 3 and won the 'ship and nothing felt better. Felt kinda sorry for the kid though; his dad should have had more integrity.
Mentioned the sandbagging to the clubhouse and a shrug of the shoulders/what are you gonna do response.

Integrity is the name of the game...

[cksurfdude]

@Middler sounds to me like you were completely polite and tactful .. so the problem is not with you.

These posts remind me of why I've been reductant to start to keep a handicap or to think about getting into weekly league play or any kind of comp .. especially if there are a few $ involved...

I know these are (hopefully) isolated cases but imho if someone wants to play by their own rules, fine, BUT they are literally not playing the same game as you - and therefore, your two scores can NOT be compared to each other. Again my 2¢

[chisag]

21 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

I've been on both sides of that. 

 

... Not really both sides, just the same kind of person on either side. 

[GolfSpy_KFT]

I think you approached it just fine, @Middler. I've never understood cheating at anything in life. It's one thing if I'm playing a casual round with my buddies from college when we get together once a year for a golf trip and one of them wants to hit a breakfast ball or moves the ball a bit for a better lie, because we aren't playing for money and just having fun. I choose not to as I like to keep as accurate a score as possible. When there is money on the line, even if it's a small amount, AND RULES HAVE BEEN STATED THAT DAY, I don't see how you can justify in your head cheating to give yourself a better chance. 

I played in a two man scramble league last year which was super fun, and am playing again this year with the same partner. There was a two-some of younger guys who would intentionally sandbag their score the first few holes depending on how good the group they were playing was, and then only really turn it on against better players. This is a pretty casual league, so most groups will tell you to pick up a putt if it's an obvious gimme (some are more generous than they need to be ) but these two made the eventual first place team putt everything out. And I mean less than a foot tap-ins, but would expect to be given gimmes without having to make the putt. One of them tried to start a fight one day after league with a guy I know because he hit a 1 in 100 drive on a 320 yard Par 4 and rolled it onto the green while they were putting. He normally maxes his driver out in the 280-290 range, but he cut the corner just right and like I said, rolled it onto the green, not on the fly.

I would have done exactly what you did in that situation, and I would do it again if the same thing happens in the future. Absolutely do not think you are in the wrong or need to do what everyone else does regarding the cheating if it doesn't sit well with you.

[RichL85]

I don't see anything wrong with how you handled it @Middler. If there is some level of competition involved, I would expect everyone to uphold the same standards, whatever those standards may be. If the rules were clearly stated as you said they were, there is nothing wrong with expecting everyone involved to follow those rules. It's always an awkward situation regardless, at least if you have any sense of integrity. The people that don't have integrity are usually only bothered when they get called on it, and they blow up pretty quickly.

Playing tennis back in school meant everyone called their own lines. Would anyone be surprised to hear that competitive high school kids might not be the most honest when making close calls with balls going 80+ mph? It gets real awkward to make that accusation and try to get people to act as line judges over things like that.

I was also accused of sandbagging a number of times in my younger days, typically around the time of the youth state tournament for bowling. I remember placing and/or winning multiple divisions almost every year, and there would always be someone accusing me of sandbagging my league average in order to give myself a higher handicap. I really wasn't doing anything like that, my house was just tougher than the average house, but there wasn't any kind of slope system in bowling to account for that difference. A 170 average on a tough pattern can easily crack a 200 average on a typical house pattern. State tournament always used a different pattern each year and since I had been spending my time practicing on tougher patterns, I was better at adapting. It was always interesting to see a few of the kids strut in with high averages get decimated by a tournament pattern and throw temper tantrums about their equipment being wrong. My senior year I came into the tournament with around a 185 average, and then proceeded to average around 225 for the tournament. It was a weird year because I had made a sudden jump in improvement near the end of the year anyway and there wasn't enough time for my season average to account for it, and like I said, I practiced in tougher conditions than the tournament. It just happened but there was definitely a lot of accusations thrown my way. Sadly all of that was over a little bit of scholarship money because it was youth sports and actual prize money wasn't allowed.

[Middler]

3 hours ago, revkev said:

I feel for you on this / you need to be true to yourself - if you’re a person who hangs on to his cheating internally and it upsets you, then by all means call it. You aren’t breaking the rules, he is, you shouldn’t have your day ruined by him.

He should play by the rules or find another group that doesn’t. I’ve played in leagues, groups that play by the rules and have had people peace because of it. 

It doesn’t upset me at all. I call cheating on behalf of the other 14 guys, 12 who aren’t there to approve of it, whenever there’s any $ on the line. Furthermore I learned golf from my (ex military) Dad, it’s ingrained in me to never cheat at golf no matter what, even if no one is looking. I’ve penalized myself countless times where others didn’t know why until I explained. Ironically the cheater saw me penalize myself once and commented, “why, we’re not playing for a million dollars!” I took the penalty.

And he’s been called out for cheating quite a few times over 3 years by several players not just me, so he’s not going to find another group. He’s just going to pout and tacitly blame anyone who calls him out.

Unfortunately some of us, including the cheater, also play in club senior league where cheating is so widespread there’s no way to contain it ***. I play with that league less than once a month now (mostly due to the cheating), and when I’ve called those players for cheating they get highly indignant, stop cheating for the day, and resume cheating next round I am sure. I could care less about their reaction. I have never had a single one of them argue I was wrong about the rule in question…they clearly know better.

*** Improving lies everywhere including hazards (water, traps), moving a ball from rough to short grass, moving a ball to clear trees, breaking branches, playing from out of bounds, taking 4-5 foot “gimmies”, etc.

[fixyurdivot]

2 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

These posts remind me of why I've been reductant to start to keep a handicap or to think about getting into weekly league play or any kind of comp .. especially if there are a few $ involved...

Same here.  I now play with two different groups that are either $5 or $10 entry games.  They play a handful of varying formats and all of them are quite fun.  They also play by USGA rules using only one variance to the local rule regarding landscape rocks between fairways and OB; that is that it's OK to clear an area of rock, and replace the ball.  I've seen guys roll balls to improve lies, move off the larger size desertscape rock to dirt areas, and a few pretty blatant tree or shrub is in my way adjustments.  And not just on the opposition foursomes but those on mine . Being new and someone who doesn't want petty (in my view) horsepucky to override the joy of just playing and having fun, I have elected not to confront anyone.  

What I did find funny was one of the first rounds I played with my Thursday group where I asked for relief from a sprinkler head on the green apron.  We have a local rule that allows for this under certain conditions - mine did without question.  One of the guys who tends to stretch the rock rules, told me I couldn't and there was no such rule.  I assured him there was and that when we got back to the clubhouse I'd show him or take a 2 stroke penalty.  Another in the group heard us and got him squared on the rule before we finished the round.

@MiddlerI think @revkevnailed it.  If it is important enough to you, then you certainly should call out the person not following the rules.  Some will take being called out just fine and others not so well.  These situations can be sticky wicket at times. 

[Bucky CC]

You did the right thing.  State the issue plainly without being a jerk or confrontational about it.  Funny enough, I just received an email from our head pro about cheating in our weekly league.

Sounds like he originally asked the accused about the situation but they were completely dismissal about cheating.  I wonder what they did to have someone 1. accuse them of cheating, and 2. be serious enough that the head pro actually contacted them about it.

 

In 7 years of running the 2-Man League, I have never had to deal with anything that I would consider a “Major Issue”.  This has always been a great league consisting of a group of guys that are here to enjoy the game and their time on the golf course.  Unfortunately, since there is prize money involved, following the Rules of Golf is not implied, but rather mandatory. 

Over the weekend I was notified of a team that was not only violating the Rules of Golf but not willing to take it seriously when it was brought to their attention.  To ensure the integrity of this league, I have resigned that team from the 2-Man League and added a new team from the waitlist. While I understand that the Rules of Golf can be complicated, and while ignorance is no excuse, disregard is inexcusable. 

I would like to make sure all members of this league understand that the USGA Rules of Golf govern all play.  If there is an instance where you do not know a rule, I would suggest that you consult with one of your playing partners.  It would also be a good idea to download the USGA Rules of Golf app on your phone as a reference.

The goal of this email is not to turn everyone into the golf police, but to make sure that everyone is playing the game following good sportsmanship.  We are here to enjoy time on the course, but I’m sure all of you would agree that standards should be set and met at the same time.  Should an honest mistake be made, please do your best to rectify it, but at the very least learn from it and keep it from happening again.  Should you see something that you believe is wrong happening on the golf course, please bring it to my attention and allow me to deal with it appropriately.

Thank you for being part of the 2-Man League.

[DiscipleofPenick]

Big integrity and thumbs up to everyone who has posted so far. Establish the rules at the first tee and go play. Keep to the code.

Good on'ya

[revkev]

@middler - I can't like your last post because I can't like or condone that sort of systemic cheating.  If a group wants to play by its set of rules I'm okay with it so long as they aren't disrupting the course - I've played with stuff like call backs, string, a certain number of mulligans - all sorts of crazy rules for fun - just don't do it too often, or enter the score and be sure you have agreed upon rules upfront.

 

But if you say you are going to play by the rules, play by the rules for crying out loud.  If you don't want to, don't play with a group or in a tournament that does, you are making a mockery of the game and its incredibly unfair to the guys that are there because they want to play by the rules.

 

As many of you know I recently played in a member guest.  For whatever reason they decided that it would be lift clean and place in the fairway, through the green, I'm sure because it would be too labor intense to go and mark all the bad spots around the course (there aren't many but there are enough that it would have been hard.)  However they then said, if you are on a bare spot in the rough and all four players in your group agree on it, you can move the ball.  Really?  It's the rough, if you hit it there than the bad lie is the penalty for missing the fairway.  Instead they put us all in the position of not being jerks in denying someone relief.  And then my partner got so lax that he moved his ball in the rough without asking and of course he got called on it - he should have been - his lie was perfectly fine, there was absolutely no reason to move the ball - I was going to call him on it. 

[Middler]

12 hours ago, revkev said:

@middler - I can't like your last post because I can't like or condone that sort of systemic cheating.  If a group wants to play by its set of rules I'm okay with it so long as they aren't disrupting the course - I've played with stuff like call backs, string, a certain number of mulligans - all sorts of crazy rules for fun - just don't do it too often, or enter the score and be sure you have agreed upon rules upfront.

FWIW I used to play 1-2/week with the senior league with all the cheating when I got here. It’s where I met the 20-30 guys I play with regularly now, and a good place to meet new recruits for our travel and other play. I only play with the cheater league less than once a month now, to see who’s new we might recruit. When I do play with the cheater league, I call out players who cheat repeatedly or blatantly. Sadly the guys who run the league don’t want players to cheat and remind everyone periodically to call it out, but with 60+ seniors, it’s impossible to stop. But again, I’ve all but quit playing with those guys.