Let's Talk Lie Angles

[GolfSpy_KFT]

I can't seem to find any kind of definitive answer in my google searches, so I'm bringing this question to the forum to get everyone's point of view. I play my irons and inch over standard and 3 degrees up. It has been a major difference maker in my ball striking to the point where I don't lose iron shots significantly left. I will still block and fade some, but that is swing error and not just the equipment not fitting me well. 

Here's my question: Should the lie angle of your wedges match your irons? I got my wedges, at the recommendation of my fitter, at one inch over standard and 3 degrees up to match my irons. the 1 inch over is a must, but I notice that when it feels like I really strike a wedge well, it ends up much too far right of my intended target. Should wedges have a flatter lie angle? If they are too upright, does it influence the bounce and change how the sole grind will interact with the turf?

I want to know what you guys do with your wedges. Do they match your irons? More flat? Standard lie? Let me know!

[GolfSpy_APH]

So I prefer playing my wedges flatter than my irons. They are shorter which does have an effect as they are by nature already a little upright. 

Best thing should be is you can have them tweaked, hit them and tweak them again if needed!

[Patrick Dawes]

I was fitted for irons that were 2" long and 2 degrees up for lie and in my original wedges that were the same as my irons the fitter had me at 1 long and 2 up.  I was not happy with my 2 highest loft wedges because I was not getting the spin and stopping power I wanted out of them and did a wedge-specific fitting to try to find something in that end that fit my game better and ended up in bone stock Volkey wedges to 52 and 58 degrees and have been throwing darts with them at everything inside 75 yards.  So I had good luck going wedge-specific fitting and changing up my last two wedges because those are the only clubs I use fully as wedges everything else I am taking a full swing.  I feel like it is ok to be different with the wedges that you use differently form your standard irons at least that is what has worked for me.

[ILMgolfnut]

19 minutes ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

I can't seem to find any kind of definitive answer in my google searches, so I'm bringing this question to the forum to get everyone's point of view. I play my irons and inch over standard and 3 degrees up. It has been a major difference maker in my ball striking to the point where I don't lose iron shots significantly left. I will still block and fade some, but that is swing error and not just the equipment not fitting me well. 

Here's my question: Should the lie angle of your wedges match your irons? I got my wedges, at the recommendation of my fitter, at one inch over standard and 3 degrees up to match my irons. the 1 inch over is a must, but I notice that when it feels like I really strike a wedge well, it ends up much too far right of my intended target. Should wedges have a flatter lie angle? If they are too upright, does it influence the bounce and change how the sole grind will interact with the turf?

I want to know what you guys do with your wedges. Do they match your irons? More flat? Standard lie? Let me know!

When I got fitted two years ago, he put me on 1.5-degrees flat and 3/4 inches shorter for both my wedges and my irons. Did he get it right? Heck if I know. It's possible I need refitting soon anyway because of swing changes and my workout program, still underway.

[Shrek74]

Checking the web, the lie angle on the Aerojet PW is 65* and your Snakebites are 64*.

I'm a fan of trying to stick with the transition of what the irons are into my wedges. My JPX923 HMP PW/GW are both 63* and my S23's are both 63*, so I don't have any difference as I transition from my full swing wedges to my specialty wedges. A past set of clubs the wedges were 1* more upright than my irons so I brought the wedges down to match the PW.

You might want to try to add at least 1* more to you Snakebites to have them match up to your irons and see how that goes.

Ultimately it's up to you if the lie angles match your irons or are different. It all has impacts on the turf interaction and ball direction/spin/speed after impact. Might take some trial and error, unless you got for an actual wedge fitting.

[cnosil]

35 minutes ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

Here's my question: Should the lie angle of your wedges match your irons?

Should wedges have a flatter lie angle?

If they are too upright, does it influence the bounce and change how the sole grind will interact with the turf?

Do they match your irons? More flat? Standard lie? Let me know!

Here are my thoughts to your questions:

1.  matching your irons probably depends on how you use them...which is why you see different answers.  

2. If you only use partial wedges flatter might help because there isn't as much shaft droop when you swing.   That said how you use your wedges might nullify that.  For a bump and run you often raise the handle to get the heel off the ground so lie angle isn't critical,  for higher lob shots you typically drop the handle and open the face so lie angle might not matter.  For more stock pitches it might help having a flatter lie.

3. It will change the turf interaction a little but probably not enough to nullify the sole grinds. Shouldn't influence bounce; that is more shaft lean.

4.   Didn't get fit for my wedges so they are just stock.  

 

[NM01]

Wedeges aren’t technically something that should be swing full. The swing is going to be shorter than a mid or long iron just like an 8i swing is goin to be shorter than a 6i swing.

As a result droop isn’t going to be as much in and wedge swing. Playing them flatter is a recommended practice 

Not sure how you havent found a definitive answer in your search but as far back as 2013 when I first got into working as a fitter i was taught about lie angles being flatter on wedges. But here’s additional definitive answers 

https://golf.com/gear/wedges/james-sieckmann-wedge-lie-angle-fully-equipped/?amp=1

From a well known European fitter who has tons of fitting data and has fit pros on all tours

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1212022-wedge-lie-vs-iron-set-lie/?do=findComment&comment=22301878

 

From another person who has been a fitter

https://www.golfwrx.com/622512/the-most-overlooked-reason-you-miss-wedges-shots/

[GolfSpy_KFT]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Wedeges aren’t technically something that should be swing full. The swing is going to be shorter than a mid or long iron just like an 8i swing is goin to be shorter than a 6i swing.

As a result droop isn’t going to be as much in and wedge swing. Playing them flatter is a recommended practice 

Not sure how you havent found a definitive answer in your search but as far back as 2013 when I first got into working as a fitter i was taught about lie angles being flatter on wedges. But here’s additional definitive answers 

https://golf.com/gear/wedges/james-sieckmann-wedge-lie-angle-fully-equipped/?amp=1

From a well known European fitter who has tons of fitting data and has fit pros on all tours

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1212022-wedge-lie-vs-iron-set-lie/?do=findComment&comment=22301878

 

From another person who has been a fitter

https://www.golfwrx.com/622512/the-most-overlooked-reason-you-miss-wedges-shots/

I was seeing answers for and against matching. Hence not finding a 100% definitive answer. Which is why I asked here. 

Thanks for the input. 

[NM01]

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

I was seeing answers for and against matching. Hence not finding a 100% definitive answer. Which is why I asked here. 

Thanks for the input. 

I haven’t seen anything from any credible source that was against it, not have I had a fitter I’ve been too or worked around during my time as a fitter that has said anything other than at least 1° flatter than irons

[cksurfdude]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I haven’t seen anything from any credible source that was against it, not have I had a fitter I’ve been too or worked around during my time as a fitter that has said anything other than at least 1° flatter than irons

Hmm am I looking at this backwards... I'd thought for wedges since generally the shaft is shorter than your irons and generally you stand closer to the ball that the lie was more upright..?

[Erin B]

7 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Hmm am I looking at this backwards... I'd thought for wedges since generally the shaft is shorter than your irons and generally you stand closer to the ball that the lie was more upright..?

My wedges are bent to my specifications, 2* flat just like my irons. I still need to extend them 1/2 inch, but I'm hitting them well in standard length. My woods are standard. I tried the flatter loft on them but didn't like the results; my irons and wedges 2* flat are a must though.

Edited July 10 by Erin B

[cnosil]

13 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Hmm am I looking at this backwards... I'd thought for wedges since generally the shaft is shorter than your irons and generally you stand closer to the ball that the lie was more upright..?

Yes you are correct, the actual lie angle gets progressive more upright.  However, what the player needs might be slightly flatter than the normal progression.   
 

update: @funkyjudge said this much better in his response below mine

Edited July 10 by cnosil

[funkyjudge]

10 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Hmm am I looking at this backwards... I'd thought for wedges since generally the shaft is shorter than your irons and generally you stand closer to the ball that the lie was more upright..?

In theory, you are correct; however, many golfers tend to pull their wedge shots and for those golfers having a slightly flatter lie angle on their wedges helps to tame those pulls.  I happen to be one of those golfers, and as such I play my wedges about one degree flatter than “standard” (most manufacturers have a standard wedge lie angle of 64*), and two degrees flatter than some manufacturers who set their wedges at a 65* lie angle which is far too upright for me.  

Edited July 10 by funkyjudge

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I haven’t seen anything from any credible source that was against it

The bolder words is the key.  Who defines who is a credible source?  Show me an authoritative document that identifies the list of credible sources.  People look for information and see conflicting advice so they don’t know what is actually correct.   
 

my expectation of f your response to this would be to give names and websites;  but to prove my point above,  how do I know you are a credible source that is providing reliable information?  

[NM01]

1 hour ago, cksurfdude said:

Hmm am I looking at this backwards... I'd thought for wedges since generally the shaft is shorter than your irons and generally you stand closer to the ball that the lie was more upright..?

As mentioned the lie angles with wedges should be flatter. Theres a lot more to it than just length of club and how close or far away you stand. The big thing is shaft droop. Because the wedge swings are shorter especially in partial shots like chips and pitches there is less droop.

It’s another reason each iron set should be checked for lie angle and not just go by what one normally plays. Shaft design plays a role in how much droop on iron swings.

The best thing to do is get fit for wedges 

[NM01]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

The bolder words is the key.  Who defines who is a credible source?  Show me an authoritative document that identifies the list of credible sources.  People look for information and see conflicting advice so they don’t know what is actually correct.   
 

my expectation of f your response to this would be to give names and websites;  but to prove my point above,  how do I know you are a credible source that is providing reliable information?  

To each their own on what they consider credible. I personally consider expert fitters to be qualified sources when it comes to talking equipment and specs.

when it comes to wedge lie angles I personally have it seen anyone advocating for anything other than playing flatter than irons, and of the ones who have said anything about playing the same as irons or more upright aren’t regular joes on golf forums/community pages.

I have yet to talk to a fitter or read any fitter who has said anything that wasn’t play them flatter and for thr reasons I stayed along with what’s in the articles I posted. I’m sure some loyalists here will ignore the sources and mayb deem them not credible because of their association with non mgs websites or forums.

But I will trust someone like Howard jones over a large number of fitters. I would put his data and information up there with Wishon.

I may not be, but I usually provide sources with that same information and from sources i think almost everyone would agree (if not biased) are credible sources.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

To each their own on what they consider credible. I personally consider expert fitters to be qualified sources when it comes to talking equipment and specs.

You have industry knowledge which gives you more understanding.  This topic is no different than people that that quote shaft flex/launch/spin ratings.   People search for something and find conflicting information but don’t have the background.  All that can be done is try to educate since they can’t identify an expert fitter or credible source.  
 

the follow-up to this question could be why don’t wedges come flatter if that is how they should be setup?  Is it possible that someone could deliver their wedges in a way that requires standard or upright lie since how the wedge is delivered is ultimately what determines the need?

[jaskanski]

If you want to see the extremes of credibility, try this experiment yourself:

Glue a tee peg temporarily to your clubface on a wedge. When the clubface is square at 'standard' lie angle, it will be pointing directly to your target line. Now move the handle a bit to mimic a different lie angle up or down. See how much off target the tee peg is now?

As lofts get more extreme, the bigger the difference it makes. Try it with a lower lofted iron to see how the target line changes. For the sake of argument, if the loft on a club was zero, then any lie would be the same, ignoring sole to ground.

This is why lie angles on wedges is critical if you play them to a certain position. If you open or close the face at address, the extent isn't as significant, but then again, if you're opening or closing the club face, the leading edge won't be pointing to your target line anyway.

Worth trying out to make sure you have the correct lie to a neutral square position though. It makes a difference, trust me.

Edited July 10 by jaskanski

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

21 hours ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

I can't seem to find any kind of definitive answer in my google searches, so I'm bringing this question to the forum to get everyone's point of view. I play my irons and inch over standard and 3 degrees up. It has been a major difference maker in my ball striking to the point where I don't lose iron shots significantly left. I will still block and fade some, but that is swing error and not just the equipment not fitting me well. 

Here's my question: Should the lie angle of your wedges match your irons? I got my wedges, at the recommendation of my fitter, at one inch over standard and 3 degrees up to match my irons. the 1 inch over is a must, but I notice that when it feels like I really strike a wedge well, it ends up much too far right of my intended target. Should wedges have a flatter lie angle? If they are too upright, does it influence the bounce and change how the sole grind will interact with the turf?

I want to know what you guys do with your wedges. Do they match your irons? More flat? Standard lie? Let me know!

My wedges are more upright than standard but I rarely use them for full swing. Now, I don't think they are as up right relative to my irons, I'd need to check. My irons, and to an extent my wedges, are MOI matched so the length progression isn't the standard 1/2" between clubs. My clubs are also based off a 7i that is 3/4" long from standard, so a lot going on. I will say my shorter irons (9,PW,GW) I get pully with and likely need to lower the lie angle maybe a degree to see if it helps (5i-8i are all straight flight to a slight push). My scoring wedges are straight when i pitch with them to slightly pully. I can adjust with aim. Personally, I would buy your wedges to the length you need and stock lie. Then go to the range and do the sharpie line test on the ball. If pointing towards the toe, you will need to go flatter and vice versa with toward the heel. YMMV.

Edited July 10 by Vegan_Golfer_PNW

[jaskanski]

pretty sure our friend McGolf covered this in his YT channel.

 

 

 

[GolfSpy_KFT]

34 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

My wedges are more upright than standard but I rarely use them for full swing. Now, I don't think they are as up right relative to my irons, I'd need to check. My irons, and to an extent my wedges, are MOI matched so the length progression isn't the standard 1/2" between clubs. My clubs are also based off a 7i that is 3/4" long from standard, so a lot going on. I will say my shorter irons (9,PW,GW) I get pully with and likely need to lower the lie angle maybe a degree to see if it helps (5i-8i are all straight flight to a slight push). My scoring wedges are straight when i pitch with them to slightly pully. I can adjust with aim. Personally, I would buy your wedges to the length you need and stock lie. Then go to the range and do the sharpie line test on the ball. If pointing towards the toe, you will need to go flatter and vice versa with toward the heel. YMMV.

This is how my fitter got to 3 degrees for my irons and then just prescribed the same for wedges. Being a lefty doesn't often help me for wedge fits to this point because in my experience, although limited, options are very sparse. The next time I get new wedges, which will probably be next year, I am going to do a dedicated wedge fit. In the meantime, the next time we make a run to Madison I'll pop into a shop down there and have them flatten mine a bit just to see what it does for me.

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

10 minutes ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

This is how my fitter got to 3 degrees for my irons and then just prescribed the same for wedges. Being a lefty doesn't often help me for wedge fits to this point because in my experience, although limited, options are very sparse. The next time I get new wedges, which will probably be next year, I am going to do a dedicated wedge fit. In the meantime, the next time we make a run to Madison I'll pop into a shop down there and have them flatten mine a bit just to see what it does for me.

I’d try the sharpie test first on the range with the stock swing you use that wedge for and see if it even needs adjusting  

[NM01]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

the follow-up to this question could be why don’t wedges come flatter if that is how they should be setup?

Flatter than what? They come in a lie angle that’s flatter than than irons. If we use vokey they use 64° which is equivalent to their 9i and set wedges. So they follow the natural progression of the iron set. Make perfect sense and good logic. Someone like myself that plays irons 1-2° flat would then adjust my wedges appropriately and a 1° flatter setting usually works well for me. I could be more precise and do the sharpie test and only bend what I need but I haven’t had to do far

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

Is it possible that someone could deliver their wedges in a way that requires standard or upright lie since how the wedge is delivered is ultimately what determines the need?

Nothings impossible and we have to look at what their iron setup is. At no point has it been stated wedges need to be bent flatter than they are, but rather that they should be flatter than the irons. So someone who is 3° might not need to bend the wedge at all as it’s already several degrees flatter than their irons or they may need to bend it upright 1-2° and again will still be flatter than their irons even going up 3° could be flatter than their irons depending on iron set and what the lies are.

the key is that because of how wedges should be swung for “full” swings and how they are used for chips and pitches they don’t need to be super upright and just because irons are 3° doesn’t mean by default that wedges need to go 3° up by default.

Long story short wedges should be flatter than ones irons lofts. That doesn’t mean they can’t or shouldn’t be bent upright, just flatter than irons. 

[GolfSpy_KFT]

I suppose I should have looked at the lie angles to get a reference point of my clubs. I have the Aerojet irons with a stock lie angle of 65* for my gap wedge. Bent 3 up makes it 68*. The Snakebite 52 and 56 wedges I carry are stock 64*, making them 67* at 3 up, which is effectively 1 degree flatter than my iron set and keeps the thought process in line of them being flatter. Don't know why it did not occur to me to check that. Maybe they need to be a bit flatter, maybe I was using that as an excuse in my head for poor strikes. So I can at least be armed with the knowledge that they are in fact 1* flatter than my set clubs.

I will give the sharpie test a go and see what it looks like on a full swing, but I've found at least for the moment a more effective method for shots that would otherwise be a full swing with those two clubs that I am not very consistent with. So my days of full swing at least with the 56 are numbered, and probably should be so as it is a mixed bag result at best.

[NM01]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

This is how my fitter got to 3 degrees for my irons and then just prescribed the same for wedges. Being a lefty doesn't often help me for wedge fits to this point because in my experience, although limited, options are very sparse. The next time I get new wedges, which will probably be next year, I am going to do a dedicated wedge fit. In the meantime, the next time we make a run to Madison I'll pop into a shop down there and have them flatten mine a bit just to see what it does for me.

I see where some of the confusion and discussion is getting off rack a little and why you are probably seeing differing information

On 7/9/2024 at 3:28 PM, GolfSpy_KFT said:

Here's my question: Should the lie angle of your wedges match your irons?

This question makes is seem as if your lie angles should be the same rather than asking if wedges should be bent the same as irons are when adjusting lie angle.

There is no definitive answer on that because it’s going to be different for each person and just like with irons each wedge should be fit to the swing. So your fitter saying to do the same with the wedges is a bad recommendation and a a bit lazy. Your fitter should have had you test your wedges to see what adjustment they needed. That’s the only right answer and approach. For some they may not need to bend at all. Some may even need to go flatter than they are despite irons being upright. 
 

The definitive answer is the lie angle on wedges should be flatter than the irons. So whatever your 9i is your pw should be flatter than that. You rest wedge may or may not need to be flatter than your pw and so on down through the rest of your wedges

[NM01]

3 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

I’d try the sharpie test first on the range with the stock swing you use that wedge for and see if it even needs adjusting  

You don’t want to just do it for that type of swing. Partial shots like 20,30,40 yrs pitches as well. 

[GolfSpy_KFT]

6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

There is no definitive answer on that because it’s going to be different for each person and just like with irons each wedge should be fit to the swing. So your fitter saying to do the same with the wedges is a bad recommendation and a a bit lazy. Your fitter should have had you test your wedges to see what adjustment they needed. That’s the only right answer and approach. For some they may not need to bend at all. Some may even need to go flatter than they are despite irons being upright. 

The biggest challenge with the bolded section was that there was exactly one left handed wedge, and it was a 60* wedge that was standard L/L/L. Possibly could have been more thorough with testing some things, but it just was kind of thrown in at the end when I asked if there were any I could try. More fault probably on my end for not really thinking about it until the fitting was over. Live and learn for next time and I will do a proper wedge fit!

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

35 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You don’t want to just do it for that type of swing. Partial shots like 20,30,40 yrs pitches as well. 

thats fair. That is kind of what I meant with stock swing (partial in general) since most shouldn't be hitting full swing wedge shots.

[TeeOhDoubleDee]

If you plot your length vs lie you'll see they aren't linear. Most people will fall into a linear progression. You have a few clubs with different lengths but the same lie angle. I'd start there looking at your lie angles. A good club fitter should be able to help. 

[NM01]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_KFT said:

The biggest challenge with the bolded section was that there was exactly one left handed wedge, and it was a 60* wedge that was standard L/L/L. Possibly could have been more thorough with testing some things, but it just was kind of thrown in at the end when I asked if there were any I could try. More fault probably on my end for not really thinking about it until the fitting was over. Live and learn for next time and I will do a proper wedge fit!

If the fitter was what I would consider a good fitter he would have had you swing your wedges and looked at the lie angle of those and determined what adjustments you needed since you weren’t looking to get wedges at that time.