COG and fitting

[revkev]

As I get prepared to look at drivers it sure would be nice to have a chart of some sort that could compare loft equivalents for drivers with low back COGs to drivers with High forward ones.

 

You know -  SLDR 12 = Cobra Fly z 9.0.

 

I thought of this because I hit Get a Grip's Callaway driver at the end of the round a couple of weeks ago and I loved the ball flight - a nice low rope.  He has a 9.0 set to neutral with an S flex shaft.  I have an SLDR 12.0 with a Paderson R flex.  Very similar trajectories between the 2 drivers and in fact I was in a very similar spot on Sunday afternoon to where I was when I played with him - a bit shorter on Sunday perhaps but we had rain a few days prior to that round.  (In case he reads this I did not have the SLDR with me the day we played - I had the Cleveland Black which I clearly was launching too high with too much spin.)  The SLDR is back in the bag.

 

I will have to review the blog article but it would still be better to have some sort of conversion chart (not only different COGs but differing companies state loft differently)

 

 

[hckymeyer]

I asked a similar question over in the M1 thread just specific to that driver, but I'm 100% with you.

 

I play the SLDR at 11 degrees (10.5 head a notch up) but I've always been in 9-9.5 heads before that.  I think maybe TMaG did too good of a job with their marketing of SLDR because I have no idea if I'm still supposed to "loft up" when looking at new drivers like the King and M1.

 

I know the answer is always "go get fit" but sometimes the inner club ho in me just wants to buy and try

[revkev]

Well sure it's always the answer to go get fit and that's a great answer - I'd like to have a starting point though - I don't have an unlimited amount of time and there is no place that I'd go where the guy would let me try everything on his carts - I want a starting point.

 

I do remember asking T on a thread about the R15 and he wrote that TMag is back to juicing it's lofts so that an R15 10.5 would be about the same as my SLDR 12.0.  But it's not just the loft - if the COG moves then there's more to it.

[BIG STU]

I know Cobra has that one where you can change the weight on the bottom from back to front and thus changing the COG. It can get complicated though with different shaft flexes and such and can be different for every one. One of my regular playing sometimes partner sometimes competer friends has one and he blisters it. He is 71 years old but was a great player in the past and is still a great player. His has a stock regular flex shaft and the weight is in the back. I think it is a 10.5 degree. I typically like the weight low and in the back myself. I have hit his driver a few times and it baloons on me. It may be the shaft or it may be the weight or a combo of both. I would maybe go off the specs of your friend's driver you hit and liked to get me a base starting point and go from there

[revkev]

I know Cobra has that one where you can change the weight on the bottom from back to front and thus changing the COG. It can get complicated though with different shaft flexes and such and can be different for every one. One of my regular playing sometimes partner sometimes competer friends has one and he blisters it. He is 71 years old but was a great player in the past and is still a great player. His has a stock regular flex shaft and the weight is in the back. I think it is a 10.5 degree. I typically like the weight low and in the back myself. I have hit his driver a few times and it baloons on me. It may be the shaft or it may be the weight or a combo of both. I would maybe go off the specs of your friend's driver you hit and liked to get me a base starting point and go from there

There's no way that driver should work for me and it was only one swing. I Knew that it was an S flex so I went at it hard. I was fit for the 12 degree SLDR but that was 2 years ago. I'm looking for something that's easier to hit.

[BIG STU]

I can see where you are coming from on the stiff shaft. I have had to tone down the irons myself. I was actually hitting my GM's new Nike irons with X-100s in them the other day but like you said having to push the envelope quite a bit. In reality no way I could play them for 18 holes. Do you have a big box store near you where you could try different combos on the simulator? You do not have to listen to the BS and sales hype. You are like me been playing long enough and  have feel to know what works for you. Could give you some insight

[wbealsd]

Shaft/Head loft combinations have been radically different for me, the past couple of years (12* to 9.75*).

 

In order of overall performance:

Paderson shaft and Titleist 910 D2 at 9.75 & loft

Cleveland Launcher w/Diamana at 12* loft

Fujikura EXS 2.0/913 D2 at 11.25* loft

High Heat w/Fujikura Pro 63 at 10.5* loft

 

While the Paderson/910 D2 combo gives me the best results overall, all of those combinations have similar ball flights.

 

Which is why I really believe in the need for a professional fitting.

[revkev]

You're reading my mind BigStu - I have the Big Box store and the friend who will let me on the LM there so long as they aren't busy - I wanted a good starting point for that little excursion.

[BIG STU]

You're reading my mind BigStu - I have the Big Box store and the friend who will let me on the LM there so long as they aren't busy - I wanted a good starting point for that little excursion.

Well thanks Rev you know good OLD minds think alike. You have a feel for what you think might work. Pick up a club and shake the shaft and watch the flex I am sure you have a feel for where you need the flex at and go from there

[superduper]

As I get prepared to look at drivers it sure would be nice to have a chart of some sort that could compare loft equivalents for drivers with low back COGs to drivers with High forward ones.

 

You know -  SLDR 12 = Cobra Fly z 9.0.

 

I thought of this because I hit Get a Grip's Callaway driver at the end of the round a couple of weeks ago and I loved the ball flight - a nice low rope.  He has a 9.0 set to neutral with an S flex shaft.  I have an SLDR 12.0 with a Paderson R flex.  Very similar trajectories between the 2 drivers and in fact I was in a very similar spot on Sunday afternoon to where I was when I played with him - a bit shorter on Sunday perhaps but we had rain a few days prior to that round.  (In case he reads this I did not have the SLDR with me the day we played - I had the Cleveland Black which I clearly was launching too high with too much spin.)  The SLDR is back in the bag.

 

I will have to review the blog article but it would still be better to have some sort of conversion chart (not only different COGs but differing companies state loft differently)

 

There is no such thing as loft equivalent.  If you are using 9.5 driver and you need a 12 degree for SLDR, it doesn't mean other golfers also need to loft up to 12 degree.  It's different for anybody.  See a professional club fitter with at least 2 years of experience.

[revkev]

@ SuperDuper - Thanks for the advice but you're missing my point - I intend to go to a club fitter I want a starting point though and I want to be as educated as possible going in because my guy retired and this will be a new one.

 

In regards to loft equivalents I think there are - every club has a static loft (the loft of the club when it is set at address) and a dynamic loft (that's what happens when the player is swinging the club and that's where it will differ.)  I know my swing well enough after playing golf for 50 years that I fully understand that the dynamic loft will be significantly more than the static loft with the driver when I swing it.  What I don't know is how differing COGs impact the spin and launch angle of the ball without trying the club first nor do I know the biases of the particular company's driver loft markings. 

 

For example I currently have two 12 degree drivers one from Cleveland and one from TMag.  I launch the Cleveland driver significantly higher, with more spin and because it currently has a lighter shaft at a faster ball speed.  I will carry it farther than the TMag 12 but even with average turf conditions the overall distance is significantly greater with the SLDR. 

 

The issue with the SLDR is that I'm right at the tipping point with it.  Good swings produce 16 degrees of launch and high teens (1900 or so) of spin.  There isn't much margin of error there - if I miss hit it in a way that produces less spin the ball will fall out of the air too quickly - it means that the difference between a good shot and a bad one is far too great even if I'm hitting good shots 8 or 9 out of 10 times - I get a stinker of a drive a time or two a round - that's way too much for me to play the game at the level I'm accustomed to.

[BIG STU]

@ SuperDuper - Thanks for the advice but you're missing my point - I intend to go to a club fitter I want a starting point though and I want to be as educated as possible going in because my guy retired and this will be a new one.

 

In regards to loft equivalents I think there are - every club has a static loft (the loft of the club when it is set at address) and a dynamic loft (that's what happens when the player is swinging the club and that's where it will differ.)  I know my swing well enough after playing golf for 50 years that I fully understand that the dynamic loft will be significantly more than the static loft with the driver when I swing it.  What I don't know is how differing COGs impact the spin and launch angle of the ball without trying the club first nor do I know the biases of the particular company's driver loft markings. 

 

For example I currently have two 12 degree drivers one from Cleveland and one from TMag.  I launch the Cleveland driver significantly higher, with more spin and because it currently has a lighter shaft at a faster ball speed.  I will carry it farther than the TMag 12 but even with average turf conditions the overall distance is significantly greater with the SLDR. 

 

The issue with the SLDR is that I'm right at the tipping point with it.  Good swings produce 16 degrees of launch and high teens (1900 or so) of spin.  There isn't much margin of error there - if I miss hit it in a way that produces less spin the ball will fall out of the air too quickly - it means that the difference between a good shot and a bad one is far too great even if I'm hitting good shots 8 or 9 out of 10 times - I get a stinker of a drive a time or two a round - that's way too much for me to play the game at the level I'm accustomed to.

I know exactly what you are talking about because I tend to deloft at impact but that is why I hit the stinger or bullet ball as we call it. I also tee the ball at about the same height as we used to tee with the old persimmon driver. If I need to hit it higher I will tee a little higher but for me I get more distance with the cut stinger. In other words with your 12* Sldr for me at impact it would be about 10*  Some people naturally loft up so that SLDR would be 14* for them. I just thought about a suggestion for you because from our past conversations on here we tend to play a simular game. I tried one of those Cally X-1R drivers the other day at our course with a Rifle 5.5 graphite in it. I was cranking it with no effort. We had it set neutral position 10.5 degree. I am thinking seriously about buying one or waiting until that one comes off the rental rack. I know our course has switched to Cally and no joke they provided the course with 7 complete sets of XRs for rental purposes. I hit it a lot higher than my current driver and carry it further than any driver I have hit so far. All the guys on staff are pumped about those drivers

[Dhuck Whooker]

Went to driver fitting last fri and found out that I am not fit to use a driver.  Main flaw is swing path is quite in to out 6 to 10 degrees, also have alignment issues my parallel parallax thing is broken.  So open to path ball is in the nice lady's backyard square to the path ball is in the bunker, slightly closed is a bomb , closed is a duck hook.

So instead of getting a taste of some higher end after market shafts I am looking at going back to golf kindergarten to get rid of my up and under move.  

Lessons aren't cheap either.  Lots of my money is going to tuition and car insurance for young male drivers.

[Kenny B]

Went to driver fitting last fri and found out that I am not fit to use a driver.  Main flaw is swing path is quite in to out 6 to 10 degrees, also have alignment issues my parallel parallax thing is broken.  So open to path ball is in the nice lady's backyard square to the path ball is in the bunker, slightly closed is a bomb , closed is a duck hook.

So instead of getting a taste of some higher end after market shafts I am looking at going back to golf kindergarten to get rid of my up and under move.  

Lessons aren't cheap either.  Lots of my money is going to tuition and car insurance for young male drivers.

 

  hahaha!   I just hate it when my parallel parallax thing is broken!

[revkev]

@Big Stu That's the Callway that Getagrip has. One practice swing and boom best drive of the day on 18. Appealing to the eye it is definitely in my mix. His is a 9.0 set at neutral but I'm certain that I would want a 10.5. I don't like relying on roll for distance down here because that isoff the table for half the year.

[superduper]

@ SuperDuper - Thanks for the advice but you're missing my point - I intend to go to a club fitter I want a starting point though and I want to be as educated as possible going in because my guy retired and this will be a new one.

 

In regards to loft equivalents I think there are - every club has a static loft (the loft of the club when it is set at address) and a dynamic loft (that's what happens when the player is swinging the club and that's where it will differ.)  I know my swing well enough after playing golf for 50 years that I fully understand that the dynamic loft will be significantly more than the static loft with the driver when I swing it.  What I don't know is how differing COGs impact the spin and launch angle of the ball without trying the club first nor do I know the biases of the particular company's driver loft markings. 

 

For example I currently have two 12 degree drivers one from Cleveland and one from TMag.  I launch the Cleveland driver significantly higher, with more spin and because it currently has a lighter shaft at a faster ball speed.  I will carry it farther than the TMag 12 but even with average turf conditions the overall distance is significantly greater with the SLDR. 

 

The issue with the SLDR is that I'm right at the tipping point with it.  Good swings produce 16 degrees of launch and high teens (1900 or so) of spin.  There isn't much margin of error there - if I miss hit it in a way that produces less spin the ball will fall out of the air too quickly - it means that the difference between a good shot and a bad one is far too great even if I'm hitting good shots 8 or 9 out of 10 times - I get a stinker of a drive a time or two a round - that's way too much for me to play the game at the level I'm accustomed to.

 

I'm not missing your point.  Static loft and dynamic loft are less important.  Getting the right launch angle is the most important.  Launch angle is the result of your Ball speed, driver dynamic loft and angle of attack (AoA).  And those variables are different for everybody even if they are using the same driver.

 

Even if you had played 50 years or 100 years if you don't know the basic variables of fitting, it won't make any difference. 

 

And I know because I have the SLDR 430 so I know what you are talking about.  It's the lowest spinning driver out there.  IF you don't have enough launch angle, you will hit it short. 

[hckymeyer]

I'm not missing your point.  Static loft and dynamic loft are less important.  Getting the right launch angle is the most important.  Launch angle is the result of your Ball speed, driver dynamic loft and angle of attack (AoA).  And those variables are different for everybody even if they are using the same driver.

 

Even if you had played 50 years or 100 years if you don't know the basic variables of fitting, it won't make any difference. 

 

And I know because I have the SLDR 430 so I know what you are talking about.  It's the lowest spinning driver out there.  IF you don't have enough launch angle, you will hit it short. 

That's exactly the point Rev is making, and you almost got there at the end.

 

Because of the CG placement in the SLDR it is a very low spinning head.  Having a basic knowledge of fitting mechanics will allow a person to assume that they would need more loft with this head because of that.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if we could know going in what the different CG placements were and their typical affect on the launch and spin characteristics of a driver head?  It would give a great starting point for someone testing out clubs or going in for a fitting.  I'm pretty sure that is what Rev is looking for in the first place.

 

I also play a SLDR 430 and due to the low spin I was able to (or had to depending on the view) loft up and achiever a higher launch angle without increasing spin too much.  If I knew how the CG of the 2016 drivers was in relation to what the SLDR is I could give an educated guess as to what loft to start out and then start tweaking.

[revkev]

That's exactly the point Rev is making, and you almost got there at the end.

 

Because of the CG placement in the SLDR it is a very low spinning head.  Having a basic knowledge of fitting mechanics will allow a person to assume that they would need more loft with this head because of that.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if we could know going in what the different CG placements were and their typical affect on the launch and spin characteristics of a driver head?  It would give a great starting point for someone testing out clubs or going in for a fitting.  I'm pretty sure that is what Rev is looking for in the first place.

 

I also play a SLDR 430 and due to the low spin I was able to (or had to depending on the view) loft up and achiever a higher launch angle without increasing spin too much.  If I knew how the CG of the 2016 drivers was in relation to what the SLDR is I could give an educated guess as to what loft to start out and then start tweaking.

Exactly! There are also differing ideals in regards to launch angle spin. I can hit my SLDR in its current set up at 17/1700. In fact I believe that I averaged 16.9/1900 when I was testing the Paderson shaft. Honestly though my longest drives came when I launched it 14-15 and the spin rate was 2200-2400. The problem with 17/1700 is that there is very little margin of error. I prefer the slightly lower launch higher spin, you can miss a bit either way and still hit a good drive. I just came from the range where I hit the driver very well. But I had one disturbing miss. I think that I can eliminate or minimize that miss by making an equipment change.

[revkev]

Was a speaker at a conference today that was close to Golfsmith in Clearwater.  The repair guy there is a friend (he does a lot of my repairs) so when they are not busy he gives me access to the LM.  Sadly they were busy but he told me that they have two new guys who know their stuff in regards to equipment.  I chatted for about half an hour with one of them and set up an appointment to come in for a fitting/trial - Since I was there in a collar he's aware that I need to be frugal - I did hit a few for him (collar and all) so that he has an idea of how I hit the ball - Hit a used Callaway XR 9.0 R flex shaft set to neutral - I like the look and feel of that driver and hit it well. 

 

So we are going to try that, the G30 (he said unfortunately they almost never have used ones because people are generally satisfied with it), the Big Bertha Alpha and the R15 (with my Paderson shaft and a couple of options that he has on hand.)  He does have a sense of how COG effects launch angle and spin and was able to determine very quickly that I'm a high launch, moderate spin guy with the driver.

 

In a bad sign for TMag there were actually as many M1's in the used bin as there were R15s.  Hummmmm

[Mr_Theoo]

In a bad sign for TMag there were actually as many M1's in the used bin as there were R15s. Hummmmm

Not sure if that's a bad thing, assuming people bought them at retail then tmag got paid. Anyone dropping 500+ on a driver and they don't get fitted is stupid.

[revkev]

And yet you know that it happens all the time Mr.Theoo - all the time - My buddy has worked as the repair guy at this Golfsmith for over ten years.  He can predict who will come in to buy the newest Taylor Made Driver the first day out of the box.  Those guys will buy the same spec every time around. 

 

It's bad news because ultimately people will talk and they aren't likely blaming themselves if they are unhappy with a club.

[superduper]

Was a speaker at a conference today that was close to Golfsmith in Clearwater.  The repair guy there is a friend (he does a lot of my repairs) so when they are not busy he gives me access to the LM.  Sadly they were busy but he told me that they have two new guys who know their stuff in regards to equipment.  I chatted for about half an hour with one of them and set up an appointment to come in for a fitting/trial - Since I was there in a collar he's aware that I need to be frugal - I did hit a few for him (collar and all) so that he has an idea of how I hit the ball - Hit a used Callaway XR 9.0 R flex shaft set to neutral - I like the look and feel of that driver and hit it well. 

 

So we are going to try that, the G30 (he said unfortunately they almost never have used ones because people are generally satisfied with it), the Big Bertha Alpha and the R15 (with my Paderson shaft and a couple of options that he has on hand.)  He does have a sense of how COG effects launch angle and spin and was able to determine very quickly that I'm a high launch, moderate spin guy with the driver.

 

In a bad sign for TMag there were actually as many M1's in the used bin as there were R15s.  Hummmmm

 

hmmm golfsmith fitters.  I would find somebody who works at a fitting studio or a stand alone clubfitter.   Even better if you can find somebody like Tom Wishon.  He is a clubmaker and a fitter.  Tom designs golf clubs and of course he has a deep understanding of COG.  And if you want to understand about COG, buy his books.  I've read all his books.... give me a full understanding how a golf club works.

 

It's about time we abandon those 3 months cycle drivers and spend our money on fitting instead.    

 

PS: 17/1700 campaign is over simplified.  17 degree is too high and 1700 spin is hard to be achieved especially for high handicap golfers.  I would say for average golfers with driver ss around 90 to 99 Mph, 14/2500 numbers are more realistic.  

[revkev]

Super duper I truly appreciate your advocacy for fittings. I've had so many I can't count even one by a certified Maltby Guy, that one was quite good in fact. I also had one at the Tour Performance Center at Sawgrass and one by a guy who was TMags fitter of the year on multiple occasions. BTW I was seriously misfit for irons at that one.

 

Between those, other fittings and the wisdom of well trusted folks that I've met here I have a reasonably good understanding of what I need to achievement the best fit for my game. I also know something a fitter doesn't, my game. I learned that lesson the hard way with the Fitter of the year dude. My swing was clearly off that day and since it was a one shot deal I got you know what'd. Since then I have not purchased a product without a couple of fittings but that comes at a cost and like most of us the budget is limited. Fittings work best when ther is a partnership between the player and the fitter.

 

I'm going to a place where I have the full range of options on yesterday's models available to me. I have an instructor whom I can trust who has told me what to look for and it squares with what I was thinking. I'm betting I can find a head/shaft combo there that will give me 14.5/2400 or there abouts more consistenly than my SLDR gives me 16.9/1900. If I don't I will go back again and try next spring. I've shot 69 in competition with this driver, it works well enough. It's not as forgiving as I'd like though and given my lack of playing/practice time more forgiving is better for me at this point.

 

I have very carefully reviewed the blog articles on COG and believe that I've identified the best model choices for my game. The repair guy at my club can help tweak later but for new we are strictly Titleist/cobra and their driver offerings have not come close to my current driver. I've already tried them.

[NiftyNiblick]

If I have to tee my ball higher than a quarter inch from the deck and play it further left than opposite my left heel, I'm not going to hit it well, end of story.  If the shaft is longer than 43 inches, I'm not going  to hit it. Consequently, if it's a 460cc driver, well, I'm just not going to hit it.  

 

Playing over fifty years, I pretty much know what I can hit.  My flat, inside out swing likes open faces and loft. Thus, my strongest fairway wood is my driver and my second strongest is my biggest fairway wood.

[hckymeyer]

So we are going to try that, the G30 (he said unfortunately they almost never have used ones because people are generally satisfied with it), the Big Bertha Alpha and the R15 (with my Paderson shaft and a couple of options that he has on hand.)  He does have a sense of how COG effects launch angle and spin and was able to determine very quickly that I'm a high launch, moderate spin guy with the driver.

 

 

Kind of funny, I have some money in shop credit from winning our singles match play this year.  There is a G30 and a Big Bertha Alpha in my flex and presumably my loft (I've never hit either) in the shop both marked at 20% off.  

 

Very tempting to run down to 2nd Swing and test these out against the SLDR and pick one up.  Other option is wait until the Cobra King get's released and then test out all the new 2016 models and have my pro order me something.

[revkev]

@Nifty - I think you are in part on my point in the jacked part of this thread - it's not just the fitter - the player must know his game - you know your game - you already have a sense of what you are trying to do and what will work.

 

If you're a better player or at least a consistent player you are able to adjust to whatever they give you to try - I can tell you that when I'm on my game I will start to hit the ball well with about anything you give me after a few swings - particularly if we're side and I can see the ball flight.  That's not helpful though - what you want is equipment that will allow you to achieve the desired ball flight without altering your swing.

[superduper]

Super duper I truly appreciate your advocacy for fittings. I've had so many I can't count even one by a certified Maltby Guy, that one was quite good in fact. I also had one at the Tour Performance Center at Sawgrass and one by a guy who was TMags fitter of the year on multiple occasions. BTW I was seriously misfit for irons at that one.

 

Between those, other fittings and the wisdom of well trusted folks that I've met here I have a reasonably good understanding of what I need to achievement the best fit for my game. I also know something a fitter doesn't, my game. I learned that lesson the hard way with the Fitter of the year dude. My swing was clearly off that day and since it was a one shot deal I got you know what'd. Since then I have not purchased a product without a couple of fittings but that comes at a cost and like most of us the budget is limited. Fittings work best when ther is a partnership between the player and the fitter.

 

I'm going to a place where I have the full range of options on yesterday's models available to me. I have an instructor whom I can trust who has told me what to look for and it squares with what I was thinking. I'm betting I can find a head/shaft combo there that will give me 14.5/2400 or there abouts more consistenly than my SLDR gives me 16.9/1900. If I don't I will go back again and try next spring. I've shot 69 in competition with this driver, it works well enough. It's not as forgiving as I'd like though and given my lack of playing/practice time more forgiving is better for me at this point.

 

I have very carefully reviewed the blog articles on COG and believe that I've identified the best model choices for my game. The repair guy at my club can help tweak later but for new we are strictly Titleist/cobra and their driver offerings have not come close to my current driver. I've already tried them.

 

Very well said.  The number thing you must know is your own swing.   And you have to tell the fitter regarding your swing tendencies.  

 

And regarding COG, didn't my golf spy have an article on this?  They also included a CG graph on current drivers.  The most forward CG is SLDR 430 and guess what, Mizuno JPX 850.

And The mizzy's CG can be adjusted.... far ahead of M1,  LOL.