Ready Golf - The New Norm?

[Dweed]

14 hours ago, John muir said:

I’m afraid it’s probably always been slow on the golf course.

The great golf writer Bernard Darwin wrote an essay back in the 20’s/30’s about “The group in front”-where he bemoans in his humorous style the speed of play - what are they up to ,why are they taking so long?

On the subject of how little this marvellous game of ours actually changes he also wrote an essay on the long hitting Harold Hilton in the 1920’s- should we change the ball,’ lengthen the courses,more bunkers etc…

plus ca change!

@John muir, a big welcome to the forums. Glad you joined.

[Dweed]

Our league has some pretty slow players, but it's as much a physical capability as well as mental. Most groups understand and do play ready golf. Most of us just leave the flag in. Because of ages we have sometimes play from 3 different tees so the youngest player hits from the standard tee and the rest move up per their age. Honors really isn't followed very often. Our slowest player team always plays the last match off as they can be 30 minutes past anyone else out there.

[Javs]

1 hour ago, bama no 1 said:

Sounds like a means to help speed things up  but when a golf round is costing$75-100 bucks a round if I need to mark my ball 4 times I will.

Hopefully, you are putting better than having to mark it 4 times……If not that 75 to 100 bucks would be better served on putting lessons. Ha ha

[Dead Solid Bogey]

I spoke with one of the Ancient Agers this evening… I had asked him to try and get some information on their round for today. He said that there was 7 from our group on the course today. . They all played from our normal senior tees. Each player had his own cart to drive. Took about 4 hrs. and 15 mins. to play the round. He additionally added that there were a total of 21 players on the course from opening until noon. He was not sure how many played from noon on. 

[GolferXY]

12 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Except distance isn’t a cause for slow play. I played with a couple who played the wrong tees and couldn’t reach the fairway off the tee while my playing partner and I were much further up the fairway. We had no issues finishing the round in under 4.5 hours. I one of the guys I played with was as slow from 6000 as he was from 6500. Slow golfers at just slow no matter the distance.

i play a course that is regularly used for US Open qualifying and have very firm and fast greens. Many of the golfers olay it from the blues on the weekend which is a tad over 6500 with a rating of 72.4 and a slope of 137. I see short and long hitters playing it and have never had a round longer than 4:15.

Im not the only one who thinks distance isn’t an issue compared to just slow golfers. There are many threads across the internet that discuss this and it’s slow golfers that are the issue regardless of length or handicap. 

Distance may not be a problem if the players are making good contact. If you have a foursome spraying from treeline to treeline, or topping the ball down the fairway, of course this will slow down play. I hazard a guess that lack of distance may not be the big issue, but there are plenty of issues to bat around. And distance secondary to overall poor ball striking does most certainly affect the length of the round.

I wonder how many people playing on that world class course you are privileged to play on  are poor ball strikers. Maybe a few, I'll grant you. But my experience is that most folks paying to play a top notch course generally have some game.  And that course will generally have marshals expediting play.

[GolferXY]

11 hours ago, Kevin Smith said:

I should have said 12 or below before noon Fri-Sun

That is an idea! I wonder how that would affect muni's that can only survive by cramming as many people through as possible.

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 hours ago, GolferXY said:

Distance may not be a problem if the players are making good contact. If you have a foursome spraying from treeline to treeline, or topping the ball down the fairway, of course this will slow down play. I hazard a guess that lack of distance may not be the big issue, but there are plenty of issues to bat around. And distance secondary to overall poor ball striking does most certainly affect the length of the round.

I wonder how many people playing on that world class course you are privileged to play on  are poor ball strikers. Maybe a few, I'll grant you. But my experience is that most folks paying to play a top notch course generally have some game.  And that course will generally have marshals expediting play.

There are numerous groups of all ages and skill level that play on it and spraying happens with many groups and it’s a course with strict pace of play and I have never had an issue with finishing in under 4.5 hours. 
 

It’s a public course that is actually cheaper than several courses in close proximity to it. Those courses are also ver challenge and have golfers of all skill level. I have played them with gatherings of golfers of all skill levels similar to the mgs guys that are going to kingsmill.

I have played with a large group of golfers on a weekly basis with several group games and games within a foursome and never had any issues with pace of play even in busy military courses in the weekend, local munis or very difficult courses. I recently was paired with a threesome if 15-20 handicaps on a par 71 course from 6500 yards with a rating of 70.6 and slope of 126. It has some very long par 4s, some short and narrow par 4s with fairway bunkers in most landing zones and where a wild shot will leave one with very few options to play out of. Holes over water. The group barely broke 100 and we finished in 4:15. They weren’t always accurate, the rough can be tough and the greens fast. 
 

They all played fast and none of them sat around in a cart waiting for their partner to do his thing.

Slow players are the reason for pace of play issues 

[silver & black]

On 5/10/2024 at 6:40 AM, BigPee said:

I've been playing since the 1980's and ready golf was non existent back then. I will tell you what else was non existent and that was golf devices and mobile phones. 

In my opinion people need to go back to basics, size up the shot as they are walking up the fairway and then hit the shot. 

Stop arsing around with distance finding and scorekeeping devices. 

Yep! My brother needs to look at his phone app for distance on every shot.... on a course he has played twice a week for the last 10 years. It really irritates me.... maybe that's why he does it. 

I rarely ever bother with distance devices anymore. I have a good idea of how far things are.... and I'm not making a living out of knowing exact yardage for any shot.... nor near good enough that it would matter anyway.

 

[satingolfer]

Hey all satingolfer here, I just despise slow play on any level of ability. To me (being selfish) your turn or not and fellow players in group or in front are safely clear just go. 
 Ready golf has been in play in all leagues I have played with. 
  Save conversation ,score keeping, discussion of who’s away, for the 19th hole. 
  Establishing round playing parameters, betting, etc; before number one Tee off. 
  I agree that as round continues people tend to slow up. Go have fun at outings, while you play with friends or strangers just be polite , play your game and enjoy. 
 Just a very opinionated thought response, not intended to insult anyone. 
Just another lover of golf who is always trying to improve golf play, anywhere we play. 
Thanks for topic. Golf on Brothers 

Satingolf

[mackdaddy]

I play a 5 hybrid with a stiffer shaft than my irons.  The extra stiff shaft keeps it on target for me.  That lets me hit it harder and higher.

[Roof]

There is the “who shoots first “etiquette to follow ,but if it is holding up the flow of the game, ready golf should be played. We have two foursomes every week and a couple guys are slow ,so we always play ready golf. We are usually waiting for the foursomes in front of us because they are playing “who shoots first”. This is what holds the game up. If everyone played ready golf it would speed the game up tremendously.

[Javs]

1 hour ago, satingolfer said:

Hey all satingolfer here, I just despise slow play on any level of ability. To me (being selfish) your turn or not and fellow players in group or in front are safely clear just go. 
 Ready golf has been in play in all leagues I have played with. 
  Save conversation ,score keeping, discussion of who’s away, for the 19th hole. 
  Establishing round playing parameters, betting, etc; before number one Tee off. 
  I agree that as round continues people tend to slow up. Go have fun at outings, while you play with friends or strangers just be polite , play your game and enjoy. 
 Just a very opinionated thought response, not intended to insult anyone. 
Just another lover of golf who is always trying to improve golf play, anywhere we play. 
Thanks for topic. Golf on Brothers 

Satingolf

So, you don’t talk while you play? How do you talk smack to the others guys in your bet? Ha ha

[N.O.Hustle54]

I see a lot of good points being made. It's hard to manage though. I believe it's a mix of post-covid, new golfers, ignorant seasoned golfers, and lack of skill and etiquette. I usually play fast and encourage ready golf and sometimes find myself "nudging" my group if the group in front of us starts to pull away or we are not keeping up with the pace. I can play a decent round in 2.5-3.5 hours if no one is in front of me, but I think that 4-4.5 hour rounds should be the norm, especially at muni's. I also believe that the courses should not stack tee times so close and use marshals (minimum of one per 9 holes) to enforce pace of play, with the exception of tournaments in play of course. I think they should police their courses better.

[Dead Solid Bogey]

14 minutes ago, Roof said:

There is the “who shoots first “etiquette to follow ,but if it is holding up the flow of the game, ready golf should be played. We have two foursomes every week and a couple guys are slow ,so we always play ready golf. We are usually waiting for the foursomes in front of us because they are playing “who shoots first”. This is what holds the game up. If everyone played ready golf it would speed the game up tremendously.

Inside the Ancient Agers group, the slower players go last. I usually will be one of those that goes back and forth to aid in balancing the groups out. As a group we only play Tuesday-Friday. We don’t play as a group on weekends or weekday late afternoons or evenings. We figure that is when the younger people with family and job obligations can play. Some of us will play independently of the group on weekends and evenings. We no  longer play in traveling outings or tournaments as a group, as we have found the restrictions on seniors on certain courses an impediment. We also get “ it “ as a group(s) we  were/are usually  the slowest and didn’t want to put a negative vibe on others playing in outings/ tournaments. We get priority on tee times the year round. Usually have at most one group or single ahead of us by 12 min. tee time interval(s). There is usually at least a 24-36 minute gap between the last of our groups teeing off and the next group’s tee time. 
   IF you are playing behind us and catch us, we will attempt to let you play through at a convenient opportunity. Hit into us even once and miraculously three or four old men will get slower and feisty as all get out. 

[Roof]

When we do catch up to the foursomes in front of us, yes we do have to slow down, this puts a firecracker under them  to pick it up a bit. We show no disrespect and if we have to wait, this gives us time to crack open a cold one and just enjoy the game and the day and talk smack to throw our partners off their game so we might be able to win a couple extra bucks. It’s all in fun. You have to have fun a not take the game to serious !

[cksurfdude]

On 5/10/2024 at 10:34 AM, Tom54 said:

The issue of slow play can be boiled down to one thing:

Everyone hates it when they are playing behind THAT group. No one cares when they ARE that group. 

 

[Rob Person]

2 hours ago, satingolfer said:

Hey all satingolfer here, I just despise slow play on any level of ability. To me (being selfish) your turn or not and fellow players in group or in front are safely clear just go. 
 Ready golf has been in play in all leagues I have played with. 
  Save conversation ,score keeping, discussion of who’s away, for the 19th hole. 
  Establishing round playing parameters, betting, etc; before number one Tee off. 
  I agree that as round continues people tend to slow up. Go have fun at outings, while you play with friends or strangers just be polite , play your game and enjoy. 
 Just a very opinionated thought response, not intended to insult anyone. 
Just another lover of golf who is always trying to improve golf play, anywhere we play. 
Thanks for topic. Golf on Brothers 

Satingolf

Welcome to MGS . Glad to have you on board!

-----------------

 

I have not seen anyone mention the "Catch 22" or I just missed it somehow.

A few points to consider. Irregardless of ready golf or not.

Skill levels- everyone has a different level of playing ability.  Players in the same group will all have good shots and bad. Some will be newer golfers learning how to play. I know when I started playing,  I was absolutely horrific at golf, now I have advanced to terrible.

Group sizes- solo and doubles players. Regardless of ability,  they will always play a bit quicker than a 4some. Seasoned players will play even faster! Why should the newer golfers trying their best, be left feeling even more rushed because they just aren't good at golf yet? Yes, I am speaking from personal experience on this. We all paid the same price to enjoy the game.  I see it all the time from regulars at the GC, that do nothing but complain. Why? because they are better than the others in front of them?  This is why I played solo rounds as much as possible. 

Stacked Tee times- this is a doozy and erks me to the core. Yes, I work as a starter/ marshall and deal with this every shift there. No matter your skill level, there is nowhere to play through!!! There are days where they set 8 minute tee times, and this is a recipe for disaster every time. Even with standard tee times of 10 minutes on a full scheduled day, there is nowhere for anyone to play through!  Just the other day, 30 tee times racked before noon. Everyone showed up on time and teed off on time.  Guess what? By hole 5 we had a traffic jam. Cart management allows us to see pace of play and other metrics from the clubhouse pc. If I tell one group to let the group behind them play though at the next holes, the accordion effect still continues. 

Walkers, pushers, and riders- these are also contributing factors. A group of 4 walkers obviously is not going to be as quick to navigate the course as a group of pushers, and riders will almost always be quicker to the ball than the other 2.  Again, see the above about skill levels and tee times. 

Now, I have witnessed many a time where the group of walkers out pace the play by 45 minutes, and riders don't.

Groupings- another erk for me as a S/M! I sometimes have to force groups together. Two 2somes, 3 and a solo, etc. Sometimes even walkers with riders.  I get the most kickback from this. Some want to play solo, some are there with a friend or family member for a personal reason, some are on corporate business meetings. Forcing players to play together who have different levels of playability,  will always lead to slowdowns too.

 

Again this all ties into the decision for ready golf. And as I have read many a time on here, not everyone has the patience to deal with it, and that leads to frustration and slower play too. 

I have the advantage of seeing things from both sides, and sometimes those lines crossover between being a player and being a GC worker.

I learned golf on the predicate of "out to in" play, and never heard of "ready golf" until I was on the course with a random group. (I even posted this exact same topic awhile back)

[Tom the Golf Nut]

On 5/10/2024 at 11:26 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

we really need to stop the generalizing about what type of golfer should play from where since each gets their handicaps differently. 

Exactly. 
I’m a low handicap mid 60’s in age and have no business playing back. My current handicap is based on playing the senior tees. Also I’m now playing at sea level which is a distance killer compared to my previous residence in the mountains of TN.

[Randall Robbins]

53 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Exactly. 
I’m a low handicap mid 60’s in age and have no business playing back. My current handicap is based on playing the senior tees. Also I’m now playing at sea level which is a distance killer compared to my previous residence in the mountains of TN.

Tom, I know of what you speak - I had hills in IL and NC ( Raleigh) but none in sight here in FL!

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Exactly. 
I’m a low handicap mid 60’s in age and have no business playing back. My current handicap is based on playing the senior tees. Also I’m now playing at sea level which is a distance killer compared to my previous residence in the mountains of TN.

The group I played with regulars for 20+ years before covid had 6 people including a female that were in their late 60s/early 70s all retired govies. None of them hit the ball more than 180 off the tee, several par 5s were 3.5-4 shot holes for them. They female always played the forward tees and the guys up until two years before covid played the second to last tee box which on then3 courses we played regularly ranged from 6100-6300. They had no problem playing in 4.5 hours or less despite shooting mid 80s or 100+ for the female. The guys moved up a tee box the two years before covid. Their pace of play didn’t change despite playing closer to 5500 yards and the par 5s now being 3 shot holes. Everyone players ready golf, nobody sat and waited for their partner. Everyone was ready to go quickly 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

21 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The group I played with regulars for 20+ years before covid had 6 people including a female that were in their late 60s/early 70s all retired govies. None of them hit the ball more than 180 off the tee, several par 5s were 3.5-4 shot holes for them. They female always played the forward tees and the guys up until two years before covid played the second to last tee box which on then3 courses we played regularly ranged from 6100-6300. They had no problem playing in 4.5 hours or less despite shooting mid 80s or 100+ for the female. The guys moved up a tee box the two years before covid. Their pace of play didn’t change despite playing closer to 5500 yards and the par 5s now being 3 shot holes. Everyone players ready golf, nobody sat and waited for their partner. Everyone was ready to go quickly 

Yup, ready golf is what’s important. I can play from the tips in the same amount of time from the senior tees. The walking distance is still the same. Different club selection and maybe a couple strokes more.  But no matter the tee it still takes me 3 hours to play walking. It’s a longer layout 6-1/2 miles. No back and forth stuff for the most part. 

[jpchanez]

I play with the same group of 15 - 20 dudes that get together on Wednesdays and Saturdays for 9 and 18 holes, respectively. It’s a good mix of old and new, working and retired, walkers and riders. None of us are professionals and we’re not playing a tournament, so we stick to a few basic rules:

1. Do not damage your clubs. Move your ball off of rocks, roots, or tough earth. Don’t waste time guessing how you’re going to hit this - move to some nearby grass and keep it moving. No penalty.
2. No ball hunting in the woods. We’re strict on this one. Unless it’s sitting at the edge of the wood line, no time is to be wasted searching for a ball. Drop a ball on the grass near the entry point and keep it moving. No penalty.
3. Bunkers suck, your day doesn’t have to. No need to reach double bogey while in the sand. If you know you’re not getting out in 1, use the “back-on-the-line outside of the bunker” rule and keep it moving. The first time incurs no penalty, but subsequent uses come with a penalty stroke.

These rules are meant to complement ready golf, not take its place. We’re here for a good time, not a long time. Please play accordingly. 

[itsteetime]

My M-W-F league has similar "keep moving" rule violations.  We treat "OB" as a hazard area - drop your ball and take a stroke.  We look for balls about 1 minute; most of the time, if it is not found in a minute, it will not be found by your group.  NOTE: Most of our players have a unique - to them - of marking their balls. If another group finds the ball, it is usually given back to the player on the next round. 

[GolferXY]

9 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Slow players are the reason for pace of play issues 

Well, of course.  I think most can agree on that.  Seems a simple thing, right?  Play is slow because people are playing slow.  The disagreement, and there is one, is what makes these players slow.  I agree that the most egregious slow players are slow because they play slow, not because of physical or mental limitations.  They choose to be slow for whatever reason.  Add this to a lack of skill, and you get the never-ending round of golf.  However, you aren't going to convince me of your argument by citing personal experience because I have a little experience too, and whether through a difference of opinion or a difference in kind, I have seen 5 plus hour rounds on courses with a marshal and a policy. 

You can argue that the marshals aren't doing their job if they allow players to fall too far behind and you'd be right.  However, and maybe this is just a Northwest thing, we don't have marshals on every course, and most courses that do have marshals don't have them every day.  It's tough to schedule volunteers when we get so much inclement weather I guess, and then when the sun shines the courses are brutalized by the influx of people and the marshals are overwhelmed.  I think many of the marshals, being volunteers for the most part, are hesitant to do more than give a warning.  I've only seen one group asked to leave, and that was because of over indulging in alcohol, never for slow play.

The majority of slow playing golfers would benefit from advice on etiquette and a reality check about the state of their game.  Rules won't stop a 25 handicap from thinking he should play like the guys he sees on TV, or speed up the guy who's taking a business call on his cell when it's his turn to play.  Anyone seen the "be right there" finger salute from the golf cart?

My personal hackle raiser is when all four folks in the foursome in front of me drive or walk to the first ball, wait for the golfer to hit, then go to the next, and so on.  Ugh!  A close second is watching a foursome of folks waiting for the group in front to clear, waiting for an unrealistic amount of time as though not aware of yardage, only to hit a wayward shot that doesn't get within a hundred yards of where the previous group had been.  That can happen every once in a while, it's happened to me.  But that shouldn't happen on every hole.

Let's not forget the elephant in the room.  I've read most of this forum and I may have missed the reference, but has anyone mentioned alcohol and it's affect on speed of play?  Wow!  Nothing makes a golf game or an attitude go south as quick and easy as a beer or two too many.  

 

Edited May 11 by GolferXY

[GolferXY]

6 hours ago, Rob Person said:

Welcome to MGS . Glad to have you on board!

-----------------

 

I have not seen anyone mention the "Catch 22" or I just missed it somehow.

A few points to consider. Irregardless of ready golf or not.

Skill levels- everyone has a different level of playing ability.  Players in the same group will all have good shots and bad. Some will be newer golfers learning how to play. I know when I started playing,  I was absolutely horrific at golf, now I have advanced to terrible.

Group sizes- solo and doubles players. Regardless of ability,  they will always play a bit quicker than a 4some. Seasoned players will play even faster! Why should the newer golfers trying their best, be left feeling even more rushed because they just aren't good at golf yet? Yes, I am speaking from personal experience on this. We all paid the same price to enjoy the game.  I see it all the time from regulars at the GC, that do nothing but complain. Why? because they are better than the others in front of them?  This is why I played solo rounds as much as possible. 

Stacked Tee times- this is a doozy and erks me to the core. Yes, I work as a starter/ marshall and deal with this every shift there. No matter your skill level, there is nowhere to play through!!!

I have the advantage of seeing things from both sides, and sometimes those lines crossover between being a player and being a GC worker.

Excellent post, good to hear from someone who is on the starter/marshal side.  You definitely bring up issues, especially working with the groupings, that I haven't dealt with.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, GolferXY said:

I agree that the most egregious slow players are slow because they play slow, not because of physical or mental limitations.  They choose to be slow for whatever reason.  Add this to a lack of skill, and you get the never-ending round of golf.  However, you aren't going to convince me of your argument by citing personal experience because I have a little experience too, and whether through a difference of opinion or a difference in kind, I have seen 5 plus hour rounds on courses with a marshal and a policy. 

There are scratch or better golfers that are slower than high handicap golfers. It’s not a skill thing it’s the person choosing to play slow for whatever reason. Some of the slowest golfers I know are some of the best. Some of the fastest I’ve played with shoot over 100.

i have played golf in California with friends and strangers. I have played with friends in Dallas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Pennsylvania, DC, Maryland and Virgina, and strangers in those same locations. I have played friendly rounds, competitive rounds, golf trip with friends and golf trips with some form of competition with not much on the line. The courses have been 6000-6800 yards, there have been golfers of all skill levels from +1 who hit it 300+ off the tee to 70 year old guys who hit it 200 and guys in between with all kinds of handicaps and some spraying the ball all over the course including finding nearly every sand trap in the fairway and around the green, In all those rounds with everyone playing the same tees the skill level and length weren’t the cause for any slow play. It was golfers who routines and approaches to their shots that caused slow play. Waiting til it was their turn to hit, waiting til the last minute to last distance and then grab a club, not bringing enough clubs on cpo holes. 
 

Its the golfer not the skill or lack of that determines how slow or fast they play

2 hours ago, GolferXY said:

The majority of slow playing golfers would benefit from advice on etiquette and a reality check about the state of their game.  Rules won't stop a 25 handicap from thinking he should play like the guys he sees on TV, or speed up the guy who's taking a business call on his cell when it's his turn to play.  Anyone seen the "be right there" finger salute from the golf cart?

Agree and again there as as many good to really good players who have no etiquette or concept that they are slow. So the generalizing of high handicaps and skill being the cause for slow play is a bad thing and needs to stop. 
 

 

[Javs]

4 hours ago, itsteetime said:

My M-W-F league has similar "keep moving" rule violations.  We treat "OB" as a hazard area - drop your ball and take a stroke.  We look for balls about 1 minute; most of the time, if it is not found in a minute, it will not be found by your group.  NOTE: Most of our players have a unique - to them - of marking their balls. If another group finds the ball, it is usually given back to the player on the next round. 

Shouldn’t the drop on the OB be two shots?

[Rob Person]

1 hour ago, Javs said:

Shouldn’t the drop on the OB be two shots?

Sounds like they are playing FUN casual golf, which a few friends off.mine follow similar rules. It's by no means a way to keep or track a handicap, butnif everyone in the group is applying to the same rules, the affected scoring would be negligible.

[Javs]

7 minutes ago, Rob Person said:

Sounds like they are playing FUN casual golf, which a few friends off.mine follow similar rules. It's by no means a way to keep or track a handicap, butnif everyone in the group is applying to the same rules, the affected scoring would be negligible.

I get that. Some of the men’s club events here do that. However, an OB or lost ball drop is two shots. Not like a lateral 

[GolferXY]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

. So the generalizing of high handicaps and skill being the cause for slow play is a bad thing and needs to stop. 

 

 

To insinuate that I am professing a "bad thing" is an opinion I disagree with and a charge that I deny.  I invite you to reread my post.  I did not generalize that high handicaps or skills were the cause. To the contrary, I stated that the most egregious slow play was because of those who choose to play slow.

Denying that the issues of lack of skill don't impact pace of play is, in my experience, wrong.  

In addition, you imply rather directly that I am in some way making an ethical statement regarding those whose skills can, shall we say, be improved in order to help pace of play.  I make no ethical judgements regarding those folks. They pay their money, they get to play, and I wouldn't  change that, ever. I was a self described hacker once.

Denying the effect of skill level on pace of play is your right. It doesn't make you wrong or mean you have some agenda. But it doesn't make you right, either. I envy you playing all those rounds in all those places and your pace of play not being affected by the less skilled golfers ahead of you.  I would wish that my experience was similar, but unfortunately it hasn't been.  This doesn't make me wrong, either.