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I've really been looking forward to this.  @chisag, thanks for the review.  I love polarizing movies.

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... I really can't remember the last time I walked out of a theater with absolutely zero reservations about giving a film 4 stars. There is always something I need to think about or something that causes me to deduct 1/2 star or more. The Joker is a masterpiece on every level: Story, acting, cinematography and soundtrack. Joaquin Phoenix should win the Best Performance Academy Award and all other awards for Performance. We saw it in Imax and I went in thinking it was unnecessary, but it deserves to be seen on the largest screen possible with an excellent sound system. 

... SPOILER ALERT: I wil not give anything away but be warned it is a disturbing, depressing and very, very dark film. 


I haven't seen it yet but my kids have and two of my sons said almost exactly what you did. They haven't been able to stop talking about it.


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we talking clockwork orange type movie? If so I’m in love the weird twisted dark movies. I want to feel something after watching a movie. I felt it after watching ledger perform his version of the joker. That’s for sure 

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14 hours ago, Charli said:

we talking clockwork orange type movie? If so I’m in love the weird twisted dark movies. I want to feel something after watching a movie. I felt it after watching ledger perform his version of the joker. That’s for sure 

 

... Clockwork Orange is in a category by itself in my opinion. I can say the same thing for Joker. So I would not compare the two and without giving too much away, the lead characters are coming from complete opposite circumstances in life. I can assure you that you will most definitely feel something all movie long and as I stated already, it stuck with me long after most movies have faded from my consciousness. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Had the opportunity to watch it in the last 2 days.

I found myself absolutely sucked into his world, I was living it thru him. I found the acting by everyone quite exceptional, the Directing took it to another level again.

Yes, it was dark and uncomfortable viewing, but also compelling, not my typical movie of choice but I didnt want it to end, I wanted more!

I'm going to watch it again in the next 2 days.

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As good of an actor as Phoenix is, this was not an accurate representation of who the Joker is as a character.

The Joker is a psychopath who kills because he thinks its fun. He's an agent of chaos and the complete anti-thesis to Batman. This is why Ledger's Joker really is the gold standard.

Passing him off as a man suffering from undefined mental illnesses who only starts killing because society doesn't care about him and people beat him up is not how the Joker is meant to be presented.

I've typically enjoyed psychological thrillers, but the mismanagement of the character and the way Phillips handled the subject matter, which is all too fresh for many in the current climate of mass shootings, really did not sit well with me.

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Wow. I came to the opposite conclusion. The movie explains specifically how he became a murder loving psychopath who kills for fun — that’s the main thrust of the plot— and did it in a way that seemed somewhat real/plausible/current by placing him in the current climate of insane mass shootings. He wasn’t “passed off” as a man with undefined mental illnesses; that’s a core part of the Joker character! Frequent stays at Arkham Asylum as criminally insane is kind of a big part of the Joker story. Even Ledger’s Joker had undefined mental illness—if you’ll recall when he is first identified it’s noted that he had previously been in Arkham but it doesn’t say why, which is... the plot relying on undefined mental illness.

I kinda knew from the get-go that this was going to be a Talented Mr. Ripley take on the Joker, getting you to sympathize with the main character before he really twists off into evil, so I was prepared for the darkness of the film. That is, I knew the trick already so I didn’t get tricked! I think that’s what people find so dark and disturbing about the film more than anything else: the fact that they emotionally invested their sympathy in the character... who turns out to be EVIL. You root for the poor underdog to succeed and then he does but... “oh crap I was rooting for evil!” It’s a great plot device. Used in classic flicks like The Shining. The Godfather. Citizen Kane. Anyway it’s the opposite of redemption, where you start with a bad character who becomes good (like the original Star Wars trilogy). Though in the Joker he doesn’t “become” crazy and evil, but finds out this is what he really was all along.

And the fact that you follow only the main character for the whole movie—there’s no side characters or side plots to follow, you’re always with Joaquin— that is a movie making challenge and it is really pulled off well. Kudos to the director.


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@chisag I finally saw Joker...I loved it.

 

This is a fantastic take on the alienation and helplessness that one feels as the world seems to escape their grasp.

 

Joaquin Phoenix was a wonderful choice and brought his own truth to the role.

[mention=68277]bluesmandan76[/mention] I also agree with your take. This was very well executed.

 

 

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[mention=291]chisag[/mention] I finally saw Joker...I loved it.
 
This is a fantastic take on the alienation and helplessness that one feels as the world seems to escape their grasp.
 
Joaquin Phoenix was a wonderful choice and brought his own truth to the role.
[mention=68277]bluesmandan76[/mention] I also agree with your take. This was very well executed.
 
 
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If i can piggyback on your “alienation and helplessness” line, the movie also serves as an interesting critique of existentialism and existential nihilism. The way he transitions from not being sure he even existed and not knowing who he was to finding his purpose and “real” identity — as a murderer... the world was harsh and didn’t make sense so he just followed his heart and did what made him happy, defining his own life, despite what others thought. Good advice, right?! Oops. But isn’t that what everyone says today?

[stands up and gets on soapbox]: I despise existentialism and nihilism and am glad when anything critiques these horrible worldviews. Every idiot college philosophy professor seems to think these empty evil philosophies are wonderful, even though it is the proliferation of these views that has led to many of our current societal problems. They claim these views are liberating, but they only “work” if everyone around you is still living with a somewhat unified worldview and morality. When everyone around you turns existential & nihilistic too then chaos ensues, society falls apart and institutions crumble because everyone is subjectively defining their own purpose & reality - and that is philosophical, religious, and moral anarchy. [Gets off soapbox]

I appreciate movies that have an intentional philosophical purpose... something deeper to say about the way people think or the way our culture understands (or misunderstands) things. Sadly most movies unintentionally (and some very intentionally) promote bad philosophies instead of critiquing them.

I think many people find Joker too dark in part because they themselves have adopted an existential & nihilistic worldview and the movie dethrones that view as empty and absurd without supplying a better alternative worldview to replace what it has so harshly criticized.

Not that people intellectually grasp this when they watch a movie; they just feel the darkness of the way the character is thinking and changing. But the fact that they were able to sympathize with the character means they were at some level thinking and feeling like him, and that is disturbing to them.


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If i can piggyback on your “alienation and helplessness” line, the movie also serves as an interesting critique of existentialism and existential nihilism. The way he transitions from not being sure he even existed and not knowing who he was to finding his purpose and “real” identity — as a murderer... the world was harsh and didn’t make sense so he just followed his heart and did what made him happy, defining his own life, despite what others thought. Good advice, right?! Oops. But isn’t that what everyone says today?

[stands up and gets on soapbox]: I despise existentialism and nihilism and am glad when anything critiques these horrible worldviews. Every idiot college philosophy professor seems to think these empty evil philosophies are wonderful, even though it is the proliferation of these views that has led to many of our current societal problems. They claim these views are liberating, but they only “work” if everyone around you is still living with a somewhat unified worldview and morality. When everyone around you turns existential & nihilistic too then chaos ensues, society falls apart and institutions crumble because everyone is subjectively defining their own purpose & reality - and that is philosophical, religious, and moral anarchy. [Gets off soapbox]

I appreciate movies that have an intentional philosophical purpose... something deeper to say about the way people think or the way our culture understands (or misunderstands) things. Sadly most movies unintentionally (and some very intentionally) promote bad philosophies instead of critiquing them.

I think many people find Joker too dark in part because they themselves have adopted an existential & nihilistic worldview and the movie dethrones that view as empty and absurd without supplying a better alternative worldview to replace what it has so harshly criticized.

Not that people intellectually grasp this when they watch a movie; they just feel the darkness of the way the character is thinking and changing. But the fact that they were able to sympathize with the character means they were at some level thinking and feeling like him, and that is disturbing to them.


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That’s a pretty fair take. I am not going to debate for a couple reasons.

1) don’t necessarily believe I can express my true thoughts via type.
2) I like to keep my discussions apolitical and stray from contentious debate.

What I will say is that I am fascinated by the theory of helplessness and isolationism as a curator of those who are mass murderers and shooters.

It’s not to say that all who suffer are going to become murderers; rather, to say that if you look into those who are committing these crimes, they share a common bond. These thoughts and beliefs that the world has abandoned them and nobody is willing to acknowledge; that they’re out of your reach. These thoughts manifesting themselves and enabling extreme behavior.
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That’s a pretty fair take. I am not going to debate for a couple reasons.

1) don’t necessarily believe I can express my true thoughts via type.
2) I like to keep my discussions apolitical and stray from contentious debate.

What I will say is that I am fascinated by the theory of helplessness and isolationism as a curator of those who are mass murderers and shooters.

It’s not to say that all who suffer are going to become murderers; rather, to say that if you look into those who are committing these crimes, they share a common bond. These thoughts and beliefs that the world has abandoned them and nobody is willing to acknowledge; that they’re out of your reach. These thoughts manifesting themselves and enabling extreme behavior.

Yes indeed. And I think one of the questions the movie intends to raise is to what degree is society (we/us) responsible for these people and their acts? In Joker it is quite clear that everyone — from the bullies to the mother to the father to the counselor to the show host — no one cared except a figment of his imagination, and so they all shared some degree of culpability in his metamorphosis. One gets the sense that if at any point someone had reached out to him in genuine friendship to notice him, pay attention to him, care for him then his descent from despair into madness would have stopped.


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Yes indeed. And I think one of the questions the movie intends to raise is to what degree is society (we/us) responsible for these people and their acts? In Joker it is quite clear that everyone — from the bullies to the mother to the father to the counselor to the show host — no one cared except a figment of his imagination, and so they all shared some degree of culpability in his metamorphosis. One gets the sense that if at any point someone had reached out to him in genuine friendship to notice him, pay attention to him, care for him then his descent from despair into madness would have stopped.


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Absolutely.

Be kind, smile at a stranger. Hang up your phone at the checkout...things like that.
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16 hours ago, bens197 said:

Be kind, smile at a stranger. Hang up your phone at the checkout...things like that.

 

you have to be a certain age to still use this term- a friends daughter asked me once what I meant by 'hanging up the phone" as kids these days only have cell phones or click to disconnect land lines. 

Made me feel a hundred years old 😂

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you have to be a certain age to still use this term- a friends daughter asked me once what I meant by 'hanging up the phone" as kids these days only have cell phones or click to disconnect land lines. 
Made me feel a hundred years old 


Yup...old soul trapped in a 38 year old body

I’ll grab a Kleenex for you right after I make a quick xerox copy
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On 11/19/2019 at 8:28 AM, bluesmandan76 said:


If i can piggyback on your “alienation and helplessness” line, the movie also serves as an interesting critique of existentialism and existential nihilism. The way he transitions from not being sure he even existed and not knowing who he was to finding his purpose and “real” identity — as a murderer... the world was harsh and didn’t make sense so he just followed his heart and did what made him happy, defining his own life, despite what others thought. Good advice, right?! Oops. But isn’t that what everyone says today?

[stands up and gets on soapbox]: I despise existentialism and nihilism and am glad when anything critiques these horrible worldviews. Every idiot college philosophy professor seems to think these empty evil philosophies are wonderful, even though it is the proliferation of these views that has led to many of our current societal problems. They claim these views are liberating, but they only “work” if everyone around you is still living with a somewhat unified worldview and morality. When everyone around you turns existential & nihilistic too then chaos ensues, society falls apart and institutions crumble because everyone is subjectively defining their own purpose & reality - and that is philosophical, religious, and moral anarchy. [Gets off soapbox]

I appreciate movies that have an intentional philosophical purpose... something deeper to say about the way people think or the way our culture understands (or misunderstands) things. Sadly most movies unintentionally (and some very intentionally) promote bad philosophies instead of critiquing them.

I think many people find Joker too dark in part because they themselves have adopted an existential & nihilistic worldview and the movie dethrones that view as empty and absurd without supplying a better alternative worldview to replace what it has so harshly criticized.

Not that people intellectually grasp this when they watch a movie; they just feel the darkness of the way the character is thinking and changing. But the fact that they were able to sympathize with the character means they were at some level thinking and feeling like him, and that is disturbing to them.


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I will echo a similar sentiment and say that this is a very interesting take on the movie.  I was not expecting to log onto MGS today and engage with a point on philosophical worldviews and how they intertwine with today's culture.  Nor did I anticipate that I would enjoy reading about such.  Kudos to you. Now I have to see the movie!

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I will echo a similar sentiment and say that this is a very interesting take on the movie.  I was not expecting to log onto MGS today and engage with a point on philosophical worldviews and how they intertwine with today's culture.  Nor did I anticipate that I would enjoy reading about such.  Kudos to you. Now I have to see the movie!


So have you seen it yet?


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Not yet.  Only had one chance to go to the theater in the past month and my lady vetoed seeing The Joker.  Hopefully soon.

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... SAG Award nominees released and Joker is up for:

 Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Leading Role

Outstanding Action Performance by a Stunt Ensemble in a Motion Picture

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