Let's Talk Lie Angles

[bens197]

On 7/9/2024 at 3:28 PM, GolfSpy_KFT said:

I can't seem to find any kind of definitive answer in my google searches, so I'm bringing this question to the forum to get everyone's point of view. I play my irons and inch over standard and 3 degrees up. It has been a major difference maker in my ball striking to the point where I don't lose iron shots significantly left. I will still block and fade some, but that is swing error and not just the equipment not fitting me well. 

Here's my question: Should the lie angle of your wedges match your irons? I got my wedges, at the recommendation of my fitter, at one inch over standard and 3 degrees up to match my irons. the 1 inch over is a must, but I notice that when it feels like I really strike a wedge well, it ends up much too far right of my intended target. Should wedges have a flatter lie angle? If they are too upright, does it influence the bounce and change how the sole grind will interact with the turf?

I want to know what you guys do with your wedges. Do they match your irons? More flat? Standard lie? Let me know!

I don’t believe there is a one size fits all answer.  I’ve always played my wedges 1* flatter than my PW.

This year during the S159 test, I chose Blue dots that were 1* up like my T100’s.  Some folks say that’s a no but I’ve preferred this setup.  I’ve played better and noticed much better results from my short game in this manner.

What I’ve learned in 36 years of playing is that lie angles should be adjusted to dial in your ball flight.  If you hit your long irons left and short irons straight, adjusting the longer ones slightly flatter while leaving the short irons where they are could be beneficial.  

[TeeOhDoubleDee]

10 minutes ago, bens197 said:

....

What I’ve learned in 36 years of playing is that lie angles should be adjusted to dial in your ball flight.  If you hit your long irons left and short irons straight, adjusting the longer ones slightly flatter while leaving the short irons where they are could be beneficial.  

Back when I was doing club fittings I had a spreadsheet calculator and would have players hit their 5, 8, and SW. We'd then figure out the slope their lie angles would need to be through the set. Some need flatter long and more upright short irons. Most people seemed to be alright with the stock slope of lie angles. If someone required a different slope I'd order them in the middle and bend the upper and lower-range clubs to fit. 

Edited July 11 by TeeOhDoubleDee

[bens197]

43 minutes ago, TeeOhDoubleDee said:

Back when I was doing club fittings I had a spreadsheet calculator and would have players hit their 5, 8, and SW. We'd then figure out the slope their lie angles would need to be through the set. Some need flatter long and more upright short irons. Most people seemed to be alright with the stock slope of lie angles. If someone required a different slope I'd order them in the middle and bend the upper and lower-range clubs to fit. 

This is quality. 
 

The first set I did this was my i5 irons. I’d just returned from PING certified fitter program in Phoenix and was thinking about my own results. I went 1* up 8-P and 2* up 3-7. It served me well for years and then naturally, as my swing changed, so did the lies. 
 

I love the thinking outside the box and the slope idea is super innovative. 

[Syks7]

Riffing of @bens197 playing 1º flatter...

I'll weigh in with a second hand anecdote from a friend of mine that's a scratch golfer.  It was shared with him by a former PGA tour pro he has been friends with for longer than I've played the game.  Mother's cousin's uncle sorta deal. 

As shared with me:

The lie angle shouldn't be way off from your specs, but it should be flatter than your irons to whatever degree your comfortable with.  --  making it less likely for you to pull a shot and end up long and left of target on a full or 3/4 swing and more likely to hold the green on a shorter touch shot.  It's all predicated on keeping a miss shorter and right side of dispersion pattern --  Ending up in the throat, collar, or greenside bunker rather than behind the green.  It makes sense from a PGA tour perspective where long of green is often super duper no bueno.  It also makes good sense from an amateur perspective as many courses don't have heavy bunkering in front of the green and have much more forgiving lie conditions if you miss short.  Chipping from the fairway is a bunch easier than chipping out of grabby kikuyu from behind the green. 

Its an idea that's grown on me since it was shared with me and after a couple fittings and a whole bunch of tinkering/experimentation I play my irons 4/AW @ +1/2" & 1.5º up and my wedges 55º & 59º at 36"(+1/2" & +3/4").    That puts them somewhere just south of 1º flatter than my full swing clubs.  Where it seems to have the most effect is inside 40 yards where my misses tend to have a bit more height and fade spin either ending up a bit short or on the green.  What doesn't happen as much anymore (I still have a lot of really bad short game swings in the tank) is a low tug that runs off the back of the green.  

Take it with a grain of salt, but it's good food for thought.

Edited July 11 by Syks7

[cnosil]

This showed up in my email today. 
https://www.instagram.com/golfsciencelab/reel/C9KiGnEuxb6/

Based on what is discussed and the post comments you can see the confusion of the OP.   Essentially as discussed in this thread clubs are independent and each should be treated differently and the lie angle should be adjusted to fix the clubs ball flight.  

[Syks7]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

This showed up in my email today. 
https://www.instagram.com/golfsciencelab/reel/C9KiGnEuxb6/

Based on what is discussed and the post comments you can see the confusion of the OP.   Essentially as discussed in this thread clubs are independent and each should be treated differently and the lie angle should be adjusted to fix the clubs ball flight.  

It's almost as if those cookies in your browser track keywords in what you look at and push relevant content to you.   Friggin algorithms.   Good sometimes, skynet-esque in others.

The though does make me want to bend my 4&5 iron a little more upright to account for the fade bias (and loss of distance) in my longer clubs that isn't present in the mid and short irons.  Might be time for a trip to Roger Dunn to spend $6.  

[Glennyboy]

22 hours ago, jaskanski said:

As lofts get more extreme, the bigger the difference it makes. Try it with a lower lofted iron to see how the target line changes.

I say at both ends of the spectrum the effects of the lie angle change relative to target line decreases dramatically. 

A driver's lie angle is very minuscule and is more for looks to one's eye at address

A lob wedge especially how it is played usually opened to some degree, the target line when you manipulate lie angle is very minor and especially considering how short the shot goes.

Every else in between matters significantly as you get right in the middle of the lofts around ~35*.

[Erin B]

2 minutes ago, Syks7 said:

It's almost as if those cookies in your browser track keywords in what you look at and push relevant content to you.   Friggin algorithms.   Good sometimes, skynet-esque in others.

The though does make me want to bend my 4&5 iron a little more upright to account for the fade bias (and loss of distance) in my longer clubs that isn't present in the mid and short irons.  Might be time for a trip to Roger Dunn to spend $6.  

Funny, I was just thinking the same for my 4&5 irons as well. My fitting said that I needed to go to 3* instead of 2* for my scoring irons and leave the long irons alone, but this thread gots me thinkin.

[cksurfdude]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:13 AM, Erin B said:

My wedges are bent to my specifications, 2* flat just like my irons. I still need to extend them 1/2 inch, but I'm hitting them well in standard length. My woods are standard. I tried the flatter loft on them but didn't like the results; my irons and wedges 2* flat are a must though.

 

On 7/10/2024 at 9:15 AM, cnosil said:

Yes you are correct, the actual lie angle gets progressive more upright.  However, what the player needs might be slightly flatter than the normal progression.   
 

update: @funkyjudge said this much better in his response below mine

 

On 7/10/2024 at 9:16 AM, funkyjudge said:

In theory, you are correct; however, many golfers tend to pull their wedge shots and for those golfers having a slightly flatter lie angle on their wedges helps to tame those pulls.  I happen to be one of those golfers, and as such I play my wedges about one degree flatter than “standard” (most manufacturers have a standard wedge lie angle of 64*), and two degrees flatter than some manufacturers who set their wedges at a 65* lie angle which is far too upright for me.  

 

On 7/10/2024 at 11:05 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

As mentioned the lie angles with wedges should be flatter. Theres a lot more to it than just length of club and how close or far away you stand. The big thing is shaft droop. Because the wedge swings are shorter especially in partial shots like chips and pitches there is less droop.

It’s another reason each iron set should be checked for lie angle and not just go by what one normally plays. Shaft design plays a role in how much droop on iron swings.

The best thing to do is get fit for wedges 

 

Aha! So, like most things in golf, it's very player dependent to change the lie on your wedges from the "normal" progression. But it may be helpful to play them slightly flatter vs the manufacturer "standard". 

Thx guys for that helpful additional info!

[NM01]

13 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

 

 

 

 

Aha! So, like most things in golf, it's very player dependent to change the lie on your wedges from the "normal" progression. But it may be helpful to play them slightly flatter vs the manufacturer "standard". 

Thx guys for that helpful additional info!

Short answer is correct for being golfer dependent and would suggest to check what the current loft and lie is when you buy new. I’ve had some vokeys come that were 2° of on loft and a little off on lie but I didn’t care so much about that because I was having them bent 1° flatter than their standard.

As we know there is no standard lie angle in golf across the manufacturers so goin 3° as an example in one brand my only be 2 or 2.5 in another so it’s always good to fit your lie for any new clubs you buy because of this but also shaft droop may be different. The lack of standard is also applicable to wedges. Most are around 64°, Mizuno is 63° usually. 
 

 As for flatter than manufacturer standard that isn’t necessarily correct. Some may need to bend them upright. The recommendation is to be flatter than the irons. That could be the 9i or it could be set pw, depending on how one wants to go about setting lie. Since I gap off my 9i I will bend based on that lie angle which for me can very. In Ping I can play black dot red dot, have even seen where a blue dot doesn’t affect my ball flight. Since I play vokeys predominantly I just bend them 1° flatter than their standard 99% of the time. 

[Erin B]

7 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Short answer is correct for being golfer dependent and would suggest to check what the current loft and lie is when you buy new. I’ve had some vokeys come that were 2° of on loft and a little off on lie but I didn’t care so much about that because I was having them bent 1° flatter than their standard.

As we know there is no standard lie angle in golf across the manufacturers so goin 3° as an example in one brand my only be 2 or 2.5 in another so it’s always good to fit your lie for any new clubs you buy because of this but also shaft droop may be different. The lack of standard is also applicable to wedges. Most are around 64°, Mizuno is 63° usually. 
 

 As for flatter than manufacturer standard that isn’t necessarily correct. Some may need to bend them upright. The recommendation is to be flatter than the irons. That could be the 9i or it could be set pw, depending on how one wants to go about setting lie. Since I gap off my 9i I will bend based on that lie angle which for me can very. In Ping I can play black dot red dot, have even seen where a blue dot doesn’t affect my ball flight. Since I play vokeys predominantly I just bend them 1° flatter than their standard 99% of the time. 

^what he said^

When i bought my new wedges last month after the fitting at PGA Tour Superstore, they bent them for me no charge. It could have been more or less than 2* flat depending on the manufacturer but the end result is that they were bent for my fit and swing.

[I like to hit bombs]

I just got fit for wedges with a Titleist fitter. This was my first time being fit for anything.

He told me he doesn't worry about lie angle with wedges since people already manipulate their lie based on what kind of shot they are hitting.