Jump to content

Long vs. Short Game


Recommended Posts

Our Sponsors

I’m going to say this with all due respect.  As a 20 handicap player, there is a big difference between being on the fringe and on the green. I’d bet stroke efficiency putting from 25-30’ is along the lines of 2.3-2.7 and from the fringe it around 2.6-3.0  We are not even close to talking the same thing.  If I hit 15 greens/fringe, called nGIR, I’m going to be right round 2.1-2.3. That means I can expect the same number of strokes from the fringe as I would would from 15-35’.  

This topic is about probability and probability over time will win and help you to improve.  I respect your argument and I’ve had it for years with many players.  Eventually, something happens and player realizes how important the change of perspective is to changing and improving their game.  

  • Like 4
Link to post
  • Replies 78
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Got to cite my sources: Golf Sidekick, Larry Cheung and Every Shot Must Have a Purpose. At the range, take 1/2 my bucket for swing maintenance: hit my primary driving club, hit my favorite mid iron, t

If anyone else comes up with a solution, please let me know immediately!! 

In my endless quest to get better, I’ve noticed a trend in my game and practice. After struggling badly with long clubs, especially driver, I got fit for my driver in January. I’ve worked hard on my l

1 hour ago, LeftyRM7 said:


Ironically we’ve had this exact conversation before. Yes if I were to arbitrarily erase strokes off my game, by placing balls, I would score better. But to play hypotheticals, as I’ve said before, generally being center green vs just off the green makes very little difference in score. Statistically it changes everything. That’s the disconnect. So I could grind on full swing to hit better shots or work on putting to give myself better chances on the green. All equates to a single stroke gained or lost. What I’m saying is it all matters equally, and most of what the discussion is about is purely subjective to how the person saying/hearing it interprets it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you look at strokes gained data you will come to understand that it is not subjective but statistically proven. The options he is giving is not to say that if you hit every green your score will improve, that's obvious, it is to give you an understanding of what you need to work on. 

  • Like 3

:taylormade-small:             SIM 9.5* (GD XC 6X) 

:taylormade-small:             SIM 15* (GD DI 7X) 

:taylormade-small:             2 DHY (GD DI HY8X)

:srixon-small:                    ZX7 4-PW (KBS C Taper S)

:titelist-small:                     Vokey SM8 49 08 F ( KBS 610)

:titelist-small:                     Vokey SM8 55 08 M (KBS 610)

:titelist-small:                     Vokey SM8 59 04 L  (KBS 610)

:bettinardi-1:                Studio Stock 28 Slotback 33.5"

:bridgestone-small:       Tour BX

Twitter         @THEZIPR23

 

"One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory."

Link to post
23 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

If you look at strokes gained data you will come to understand that it is not subjective but statistically proven. The options he is giving is not to say that if you hit every green your score will improve, that's obvious, it is to give you an understanding of what you need to work on. 

Your score won’t improve as a 1.5.  His score would drop like a ton of bricks!! Not saying easy just a big drop is possible. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Yes if I were to arbitrarily erase strokes off my game, by placing balls, I would score better.

The arbitrary erasure of stroke is how you figure out what to work on to get better. Why are you a 20 handicap?
Do you miss 3’ putts? Do you fail to get putts outside of 3’ to within 3’ causing 3+ putts? When you miss the green how often do you get up and down? Why don’t you get up and down? When you miss the green is it in the right spot? Are your approach shots inconsistent causing you to end up in bad locations? Does you tee shot often result in penalties or chip outs?
Yes, every time you hit the ball it counts as 1 stroke, but a poorly played ball often results in the the need to hit extra shots.

If you look at an individual round the patterns may not emerge, but over time you will start to identify where you are losing strokes.
  • Like 4

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :taylormade-small:TM-180

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to post

Generally I struggle with anything longer than about 160. I am a short hitter so I need good fairway and hybrid play in the 4 hybrid and longer range. But I am woefully inconsistent with those. It also doesn't help that I mostly play executive and short 9 hole courses mostly. So I don't get to hit longer fairway shots that often. Long par 4s and par 5 holes are my nemesis. On the range I seem to hit my fairways and hybrids just fine but then shank them everywhere when in live play. So I am not that concerned with my short game. I know I can get back to at least where I have been. 

Oddly driver is also not a big problem. I only hit it about 200-215 but no major dispersion problems. Just the occasional slice/fade, but mostly I stay out of trouble. 

Post corona virus I plan to play longer courses where I am forced to face my issues with longer holes.

  • Like 1

th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg Gen1 0811X 12° driver w/Project X Evenflow Blue 55g shaft
post-76102-0-38507100-1525284411.jpg KE4 TC 16° 4 wood w/Kuro Kage Black 60g shaft

:srixon-small: Z355 22° 7 wood w/Miyazaki Jinsoku shaft
post-76102-0-38507100-1525284411.jpg KE4 TC 19° 3 hybrid w/UST Proforce V2 Black shaft
post-76102-0-38507100-1525284411.jpg KE4 TC 22° 4 hybrid w/UST Proforce V2 Black shaft

:tour-edge: HL E521 25° 5 hybrid w/Fubuki HD55 shaft

post-76102-0-38507100-1525284411.jpg Sti2 6 iron w/UST Recoil 660 graphite shaft
post-76102-0-38507100-1525284411.jpg KE4 Tour+ irons 7-PW w/UST Competition Series graphite shafts

:cleveland-small: CBX2 50° wedge w/Rotex shaft
post-76102-0-38507100-1525284411.jpg M-Series+ 56° wedge w/UST Recoil 660 graphite shaft
:cleveland-small:  Huntington Beach Soft Premier 10.5

Link to post

I've had this same issue going on about five years now. And, things were finally turning the corner this winter after I joined Five Iron Golf, and then quarantine. I was getting trackman number 3-4 times a week, which were giving me so much confidence and insight into my swing. 

So, my advice would be to get to a simulator that gives you swing data and see where your driver swing data is. I figured out that my attack angle was waaaaay to steep. That helped correct a little too much out-to-in, which then lead to a more stable face angle. Now, let me be clear and say I don't think trackman is a perfect swap for the course, but I do think it can give you knowledge out on the course if things go awry.  

  • Like 1

Cobra King F9 - Fuji Ventus Blue 6X

Taylormade M3 - 15*: Graphite Design Tour AD TP 6X

Cobra F9 Speedback: Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 6X

TM P760's 4-PW - Modus 120X

50* Vokey X100

53* and 58* Vokey SM8 X100

L.A.B. Putters 2.1 Directed Force

Link to post
On 5/28/2019 at 10:35 PM, robertson153 said:

I think there has to be an equal amount of practice/range time on long and short game. I have yet to find that balance. I also struggle with getting off the tee, then with approach shots. In my mind I try to fix one thing and focus on that instead of my entire game. Maybe one of these days I’ll figure it out.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

I agree you have to spend time on each. Break down your practice schedule into groups which is what I do Short Irons, Mid-irons,  Long irons/Woods. I always spend time hitting shots from 20 yards and in after my range time. When I was playing my best I hit balls 4-5 times a week and played once. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, Striker said:

I agree you have to spend time on each. Break down your practice schedule into groups which is what I do Short Irons, Mid-irons,  Long irons/Woods. I always spend time hitting shots from 20 yards and in after my range time. When I was playing my best I hit balls 4-5 times a week and played once. 

Determining what and how to practice is probably the biggest struggle for golfers of all levels.  I think golfers spend more time searching for the answer than finding and sticking to a plan.  This has a lot to do with the individual nature of the sport and and media who show 19,000 different ways.  When that happens the golfing population believes they can go anyway and meet their goals.  I believe this is the biggest problem with golf improvement.  For example, a player could swing with what would be commonly accepted as a poor or non functional swing.  This golfer, however, knows where his ball goes, knows it has reasonable precision, and they make decisions based on standards that accommodate their skills. Even wrong technique can get the job done when they know what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and stick to their system with great tenacity.  Predictability creates certainty and confidence.  

This is the biggest learning curve for players who enter my program.  I have written standards and procedures for everything we do.  Once they meet the standards we can evaluate what they do best and adjust the standard to exploit their strengths and develop their weaknesses.  Most golfers proudly defend their way.  This is ego getting in the way of personal development and improvement.  Standards, systems, & SOPs work!  Evaluate and job that has life or death implications and you will find this system.  Think how beneficial a program/system would be for golf.  Please notice that I haven't mentioned anything about a swing.  If you sill matches the standard for you current skills then no reason to change your swing/technique.  If you don't, time to get to work.  We know to much about the swing and how people learn to struggle the way we do with golf.  Golfers romanticize the journey and feel like they are working toward some greater good.  In my opinion - boring!  Success and failure leave clues.  Collect them, filter them, and create standards based on reality and not on hope.  Hope is a horrible plan.  

I'm open to opinions and happy to share.  

  • Like 3
Link to post
  • 2 weeks later...

I feel ya. I just played one of the worst rounds in a longgggg time today. Two days after feeling better than I have about my irons in a longgggg time. It was wild. But I go through the same cycle. Feel good about something, then it goes to hell the next round, and the thing I was struggling with before was money. It's what keeps me coming back, I guess...

  • Like 1

WITB

Driver: Ping G30 10.5 Stiff

Fairway wood: Titleist 917F2 16.5 Stiff 

Irons: Callaway Apex CF16 Steel Fiber i95 Stiff (5-PW)

Wedges: Vokey 52, 56

Putter: Odyssey White Hot #1

Link to post
10 hours ago, coyote_jones said:

I feel ya. I just played one of the worst rounds in a longgggg time today. Two days after feeling better than I have about my irons in a longgggg time. It was wild. But I go through the same cycle. Feel good about something, then it goes to hell the next round, and the thing I was struggling with before was money. It's what keeps me coming back, I guess...

I am in now way picking on you or making any judgments, but your comments illuminate a couple of struggles so many players endure.  One, compartmentalization of all parts of the game and giving life to inanimate objects.  Saying I felt better about my long irons as apposed to, I hit/controlled my long irons well.  You did the work, not the club. Second, riding the daily emotions of the game which is exhausting!  This tells me that a player has the 'have it' or 'don't have it' syndrome.  We need to recognize the ongoing journey that endures the the good and bad times equally well while continually moving the need toward our goals.  This is thriving!  The same is seen in successful business and relationships.  A marriage isn't a bad marriage because of an argument any more than it is a great marriage due to a good day.  Our attention needs to be on today while our vision needs to see the big picture.  

The ebbs and flows of golf are normal, predictable, and should be expected.  We literally should have almost zero emotional response to the good days or the bad.   

  • Like 3
Link to post
1 hour ago, edteergolf said:

I am in now way picking on you or making any judgments, but your comments illuminate a couple of struggles so many players endure.  One, compartmentalization of all parts of the game and giving life to inanimate objects.  Saying I felt better about my long irons as apposed to, I hit/controlled my long irons well.  You did the work, not the club. Second, riding the daily emotions of the game which is exhausting!  This tells me that a player has the 'have it' or 'don't have it' syndrome.  We need to recognize the ongoing journey that endures the the good and bad times equally well while continually moving the need toward our goals.  This is thriving!  The same is seen in successful business and relationships.  A marriage isn't a bad marriage because of an argument any more than it is a great marriage due to a good day.  Our attention needs to be on today while our vision needs to see the big picture.  

The ebbs and flows of golf are normal, predictable, and should be expected.  We literally should have almost zero emotional response to the good days or the bad.   

I appreciate this. I definitely need to work on shrugging my emotions a bit more. I didn't golf for maybe 10 years after having golfed a lot for many years before that. I think it's hard for me when I get glimpses of my old swings but don't have the repetitions to have the consistency yet. I know I can hit the shots, but when I hit a few bad ones my mind starts running and I try to fix things that weren't the problem to begin with. That leads to worse swings. The mental game is real. I like the "have it"/"don't have it" comment. I'll be keeping this in mind. Thanks for the feedback!

  • Like 2

WITB

Driver: Ping G30 10.5 Stiff

Fairway wood: Titleist 917F2 16.5 Stiff 

Irons: Callaway Apex CF16 Steel Fiber i95 Stiff (5-PW)

Wedges: Vokey 52, 56

Putter: Odyssey White Hot #1

Link to post
  • 2 weeks later...

The long game and the short game are different but critical aspects to golf. In the long game, power and distance are required so that the player's ball can approach the putting green in as few strokes as possible. In the short game, the skills needed are more finesse-related due to the need for accuracy.

RegardS

  • Like 1
Link to post
  • 2 weeks later...

So much good information just spewing from all of you.  My two cents is have blance and a plan for practice.  Golf has never been a one dimensional game.  Once you are out on the course, just play.  Working on stuff out on the course usually hurts your score.  Also along with the range time, I think cardio is really important.  We may not want to believe it  because there isn't running (or walking for that matter if you ride a cart) in this sport but how many sports take on average four to five hours to play?  Fatigue on the back nine will disturb your swing and more importantly your focus or concentration.  I'm glad this thread is here because its given me ideas on what to do or how to structure my practice time.  Thanks all

  • Like 1
Link to post
On 5/29/2019 at 10:14 AM, DaveP043 said:

I would respectfully disagree with @TwoCoatsOfWax.  If you're trying to improve your swing, the range is critical.  When you're on the course, you're focused on the results of each shot.  When you're on the range, you can focus on your mechanical changes...

 

I’m in the opposite boat here... I think on course practice is the best. So long as on course practice is that... practice. Don’t keep a score when you are practicing... drop multiple balls from lies that you find  hard to recreate many of those things on the range  

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
  • 8 months later...

One of my favorite sayings I’ve heard (don’t know who said it first, so I’m stealing it a bit) is that golf boils down to 4 strokes. The last stroke is generally less than a foot or two on every hole, but is so simple most people don’t need to spend time practicing it. Being proficient at shots 1 and 2 will keep big scores off your card, but being a master at shot 3 is what puts small numbers on the card. 
You need to assess your strengths and weaknesses based on this criteria. If you have a basic proficiency with the game, then determine where you’re losing strokes. If you are taking lots of doubles and triples, spend more time practicing the long game. If you’re close to a single handicap and keeping the ball in play with your first two shots, spend a very large portion of your practice on that third shot: long putts, chips, pitches, full wedges, etc. 

  • Like 2

Stats: 5'4", Male, R-Handed, Moderate Tempo, Driver SS 115mph
 

Driver: Taylormade SiM Max 9*, TM Ventus Blue 6X
3w/5w: Callaway X-Hot, S-flex Fubuki shafts
3h: Tour Edge EXS Pro, Smoke Black 80g 6.0
4i-PW: Mizuno MP-4, DG S300
Wedges: Titleist SM7
56* Wedge: Callaway Jaws w/ 12* of bounce

Link to post
On 5/29/2019 at 11:14 AM, DaveP043 said:

If you're not working on specific mechanical changes, I think a balanced practice is best.  Personally, I hit MOST of my shots on the range with a mid-iron, 5 or 6-iron.  These mechanics should be the same as those for driver or wedge, but I make sure to hit a few short irons as well as a few drivers, just to maintain those parts of my game.  I'm talking half-hour to 45 minute sessions, not marathons.  I pay attention to every swing, pre-shot routine, set-up, tempo, alignment, so I'm not hitting a ton of balls.

You didn't mention chipping and putting, but these need some attention.  For putting, practice 30 and 40 footers, and 3 to 8 footers, to stop 3-putts and make more of the make-able ones.  In between distances, you won't improve enough to make much difference.  For chipping, learn to hit the green every time, getting it close is a bonus for a 20-handicapper.

I would respectfully disagree with @TwoCoatsOfWax.  If you're trying to improve your swing, the range is critical.  When you're on the course, you're focused on the results of each shot.  When you're on the range, you can focus on your mechanical changes without worrying too much where the ball goes.  Additionally, playing isn't a really time-effective way to practice swings, you spend 1-1/2 to 2 hours to play 9 holes, you'll make more swings in a half-hour on the range.  Of course playing actual golf is important, and might be right for many people, but its definitely not the way to go if you're going to try to improve your swing.

Pretty much captured my entire thoughts in this post!  Practice should be focused on your mechanics, your repetition of a specific motion so that it becomes ingrained and trustable, and most of all focused on improving those things that you struggle with.  

This doesn't require a ton of balls to be hit either, though if you are physically capable of hitting a couple hundred balls that's always going to be best per session.  But, I will go through stretches where I may get just one large bucket of 70 balls and work on the take away, transition and impact.  In those I try to optimize the practices by switching through three different clubs, but like Dave said I focus on the 5 or 6 iron because it does maintain the same principles and motions you'd get at either end of the bag. 

I also agree that while hitting balls is absolutely critical, putting is also something people don't practice enough either.  You can escape a LOT of extra strokes in any given round when you can confidently bang in those 20+ footers.  

Dave, though, like I said nailed a lot of my thoughts in his post.  @TwoCoatsOfWax did mention a good point of practice on the course but that is a completely different animal in my opinion.  While it does provide benefit and is something you should do, you're more focused on the end results than you are on mechanics.  So in that sense I think it's a part of the bigger picture than something of a focal point. 

Great post Dave!

BNewt51

:taylormade-small:  9* Sim  Hzrdus Smoke "Yellow" Handcrafted 6.5  (Best borrow I've ever made from a buddy)

:callaway-small:Epic Flash - 14* 3-wood Mitsubishi Tensei Blue X-stiff

:titelist-small: TSI2 19* Hybrid Tensei Blue X-Stiff

:taylormade-small: -P770 4-PW KBS C-Taper 120 S 

:taylormade-small: - 50* , 54* and 58* MG2 Wedges  Dynamic Gold Tour S200

:scotty-cameron-1: - Tour Select Square Back

:taylormade-small: - Taylormade Flextech Bag (Blue and Grey)

:taylormade-small: - TP5 and TP5 Pix 

Bushnell Tour V-4 - Non-Slope edition 🙁

*King of taking (borrowing) all my club ***** friends clubs after they've discarded them after a couple months! 🤣

 

Link to post
On 12/4/2019 at 7:50 AM, DaveP043 said:

So you've come to this website to plug your own website?

Power of free advertising, maybe? 🤣

BNewt51

:taylormade-small:  9* Sim  Hzrdus Smoke "Yellow" Handcrafted 6.5  (Best borrow I've ever made from a buddy)

:callaway-small:Epic Flash - 14* 3-wood Mitsubishi Tensei Blue X-stiff

:titelist-small: TSI2 19* Hybrid Tensei Blue X-Stiff

:taylormade-small: -P770 4-PW KBS C-Taper 120 S 

:taylormade-small: - 50* , 54* and 58* MG2 Wedges  Dynamic Gold Tour S200

:scotty-cameron-1: - Tour Select Square Back

:taylormade-small: - Taylormade Flextech Bag (Blue and Grey)

:taylormade-small: - TP5 and TP5 Pix 

Bushnell Tour V-4 - Non-Slope edition 🙁

*King of taking (borrowing) all my club ***** friends clubs after they've discarded them after a couple months! 🤣

 

Link to post

I have to admit, this was one of the best and most fascinating threads yet on MGS for me!  I love the perspectives of everyone!

I guess my take away on a lot of this is fairly simple, and probably universally said during many of your posts.   There is no right or wrong way so long as you see results. When you don't see the results, well it's obvious that you need to change something. 

When I first began this Golfing Journey a teaching pro taught me to think of golf in the 1/4 principle.  25% of your games off the tee, 25% of your game is from the fairway (or rough if you will), 25% is short game and 25% is putting.  If you can spread the wealth on each of those aspects you will gradually improve. 

That worked for along time because early on as a beginner I could wrap my brain around the idea that I had to focus on everything to improve incrementally.  But, as I quickly got better at the game I realized that this isn't a hard and fast rule!  So back to the teaching pro I went. 

Amazingly, and it's always stuck with me, he laughed and said if I didn't tell you to follow that principle you'd be like every other beginner out there smashing driver on the range and ignoring everything else.  He went on to utilize some of the age old great teachers advice and help me take my game to the next level.  

All that to say, I find that in my journey these days I've come to understand a lot of what people have said in these posts.  If you can improve your FIR, GIR and Putting while still maintaining some basic principles and sharpness on chipping and pitching you're going to see scores going in the right direction.  BUT... Never lose sight of the fact that Golf is hard and sometimes we're even harder on ourselves.  One bad round doesn't define us.  

Fall in love with the journey cause it truly can last you a lifetime! 

Great job everybody!  Loved the content. 

  • Like 1

BNewt51

:taylormade-small:  9* Sim  Hzrdus Smoke "Yellow" Handcrafted 6.5  (Best borrow I've ever made from a buddy)

:callaway-small:Epic Flash - 14* 3-wood Mitsubishi Tensei Blue X-stiff

:titelist-small: TSI2 19* Hybrid Tensei Blue X-Stiff

:taylormade-small: -P770 4-PW KBS C-Taper 120 S 

:taylormade-small: - 50* , 54* and 58* MG2 Wedges  Dynamic Gold Tour S200

:scotty-cameron-1: - Tour Select Square Back

:taylormade-small: - Taylormade Flextech Bag (Blue and Grey)

:taylormade-small: - TP5 and TP5 Pix 

Bushnell Tour V-4 - Non-Slope edition 🙁

*King of taking (borrowing) all my club ***** friends clubs after they've discarded them after a couple months! 🤣

 

Link to post

Nice to see this thread come back up.  I do miss seeing @edteergolf here with his words of wisdom.  So I'll leave the concept of Separation Value from Lowest Score Wins here as I've done in other threads.

https://lowestscorewins.com/separation-value

We have a finite amount of time to practice; we should dedicate it to shots that we:
1.  Hit several of each round
2.  Can meaningfully improve with practice

 

  • Like 2

What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
4 Wood (17*) - :callaway-logo-1: Big Bertha S2H2 - RCH 90 "Firm"
7 Wood  - :callaway-logo-1: Big Bertha Warbird S2H2 - RCH 90 "Firm"
5i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
GW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :taylormade-small: TP5X Pix
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

What's in timeout:
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
4i - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )

 

Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...