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LeftyRM7

Long vs. Short Game

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I’m going to say this with all due respect.  As a 20 handicap player, there is a big difference between being on the fringe and on the green. I’d bet stroke efficiency putting from 25-30’ is along the lines of 2.3-2.7 and from the fringe it around 2.6-3.0  We are not even close to talking the same thing.  If I hit 15 greens/fringe, called nGIR, I’m going to be right round 2.1-2.3. That means I can expect the same number of strokes from the fringe as I would would from 15-35’.  

This topic is about probability and probability over time will win and help you to improve.  I respect your argument and I’ve had it for years with many players.  Eventually, something happens and player realizes how important the change of perspective is to changing and improving their game.  

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1 hour ago, LeftyRM7 said:


Ironically we’ve had this exact conversation before. Yes if I were to arbitrarily erase strokes off my game, by placing balls, I would score better. But to play hypotheticals, as I’ve said before, generally being center green vs just off the green makes very little difference in score. Statistically it changes everything. That’s the disconnect. So I could grind on full swing to hit better shots or work on putting to give myself better chances on the green. All equates to a single stroke gained or lost. What I’m saying is it all matters equally, and most of what the discussion is about is purely subjective to how the person saying/hearing it interprets it.


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If you look at strokes gained data you will come to understand that it is not subjective but statistically proven. The options he is giving is not to say that if you hit every green your score will improve, that's obvious, it is to give you an understanding of what you need to work on. 

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23 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

If you look at strokes gained data you will come to understand that it is not subjective but statistically proven. The options he is giving is not to say that if you hit every green your score will improve, that's obvious, it is to give you an understanding of what you need to work on. 

Your score won’t improve as a 1.5.  His score would drop like a ton of bricks!! Not saying easy just a big drop is possible. 

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Yes if I were to arbitrarily erase strokes off my game, by placing balls, I would score better.

The arbitrary erasure of stroke is how you figure out what to work on to get better. Why are you a 20 handicap?
Do you miss 3’ putts? Do you fail to get putts outside of 3’ to within 3’ causing 3+ putts? When you miss the green how often do you get up and down? Why don’t you get up and down? When you miss the green is it in the right spot? Are your approach shots inconsistent causing you to end up in bad locations? Does you tee shot often result in penalties or chip outs?
Yes, every time you hit the ball it counts as 1 stroke, but a poorly played ball often results in the the need to hit extra shots.

If you look at an individual round the patterns may not emerge, but over time you will start to identify where you are losing strokes.
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Generally I struggle with anything longer than about 160. I am a short hitter so I need good fairway and hybrid play in the 4 hybrid and longer range. But I am woefully inconsistent with those. It also doesn't help that I mostly play executive and short 9 hole courses mostly. So I don't get to hit longer fairway shots that often. Long par 4s and par 5 holes are my nemesis. On the range I seem to hit my fairways and hybrids just fine but then shank them everywhere when in live play. So I am not that concerned with my short game. I know I can get back to at least where I have been. 

Oddly driver is also not a big problem. I only hit it about 200-215 but no major dispersion problems. Just the occasional slice/fade, but mostly I stay out of trouble. 

Post corona virus I plan to play longer courses where I am forced to face my issues with longer holes.


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I've had this same issue going on about five years now. And, things were finally turning the corner this winter after I joined Five Iron Golf, and then quarantine. I was getting trackman number 3-4 times a week, which were giving me so much confidence and insight into my swing. 

So, my advice would be to get to a simulator that gives you swing data and see where your driver swing data is. I figured out that my attack angle was waaaaay to steep. That helped correct a little too much out-to-in, which then lead to a more stable face angle. Now, let me be clear and say I don't think trackman is a perfect swap for the course, but I do think it can give you knowledge out on the course if things go awry.  

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On 5/28/2019 at 10:35 PM, robertson153 said:

I think there has to be an equal amount of practice/range time on long and short game. I have yet to find that balance. I also struggle with getting off the tee, then with approach shots. In my mind I try to fix one thing and focus on that instead of my entire game. Maybe one of these days I’ll figure it out.


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I agree you have to spend time on each. Break down your practice schedule into groups which is what I do Short Irons, Mid-irons,  Long irons/Woods. I always spend time hitting shots from 20 yards and in after my range time. When I was playing my best I hit balls 4-5 times a week and played once. 

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1 hour ago, Striker said:

I agree you have to spend time on each. Break down your practice schedule into groups which is what I do Short Irons, Mid-irons,  Long irons/Woods. I always spend time hitting shots from 20 yards and in after my range time. When I was playing my best I hit balls 4-5 times a week and played once. 

Determining what and how to practice is probably the biggest struggle for golfers of all levels.  I think golfers spend more time searching for the answer than finding and sticking to a plan.  This has a lot to do with the individual nature of the sport and and media who show 19,000 different ways.  When that happens the golfing population believes they can go anyway and meet their goals.  I believe this is the biggest problem with golf improvement.  For example, a player could swing with what would be commonly accepted as a poor or non functional swing.  This golfer, however, knows where his ball goes, knows it has reasonable precision, and they make decisions based on standards that accommodate their skills. Even wrong technique can get the job done when they know what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and stick to their system with great tenacity.  Predictability creates certainty and confidence.  

This is the biggest learning curve for players who enter my program.  I have written standards and procedures for everything we do.  Once they meet the standards we can evaluate what they do best and adjust the standard to exploit their strengths and develop their weaknesses.  Most golfers proudly defend their way.  This is ego getting in the way of personal development and improvement.  Standards, systems, & SOPs work!  Evaluate and job that has life or death implications and you will find this system.  Think how beneficial a program/system would be for golf.  Please notice that I haven't mentioned anything about a swing.  If you sill matches the standard for you current skills then no reason to change your swing/technique.  If you don't, time to get to work.  We know to much about the swing and how people learn to struggle the way we do with golf.  Golfers romanticize the journey and feel like they are working toward some greater good.  In my opinion - boring!  Success and failure leave clues.  Collect them, filter them, and create standards based on reality and not on hope.  Hope is a horrible plan.  

I'm open to opinions and happy to share.  

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I feel ya. I just played one of the worst rounds in a longgggg time today. Two days after feeling better than I have about my irons in a longgggg time. It was wild. But I go through the same cycle. Feel good about something, then it goes to hell the next round, and the thing I was struggling with before was money. It's what keeps me coming back, I guess...


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Fairway wood: Titleist 917F2 16.5 Stiff 

Irons: Callaway Apex CF16 Steel Fiber i95 Stiff (5-PW)

Wedges: Vokey 52, 56

Putter: Odyssey White Hot #1

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10 hours ago, coyote_jones said:

I feel ya. I just played one of the worst rounds in a longgggg time today. Two days after feeling better than I have about my irons in a longgggg time. It was wild. But I go through the same cycle. Feel good about something, then it goes to hell the next round, and the thing I was struggling with before was money. It's what keeps me coming back, I guess...

I am in now way picking on you or making any judgments, but your comments illuminate a couple of struggles so many players endure.  One, compartmentalization of all parts of the game and giving life to inanimate objects.  Saying I felt better about my long irons as apposed to, I hit/controlled my long irons well.  You did the work, not the club. Second, riding the daily emotions of the game which is exhausting!  This tells me that a player has the 'have it' or 'don't have it' syndrome.  We need to recognize the ongoing journey that endures the the good and bad times equally well while continually moving the need toward our goals.  This is thriving!  The same is seen in successful business and relationships.  A marriage isn't a bad marriage because of an argument any more than it is a great marriage due to a good day.  Our attention needs to be on today while our vision needs to see the big picture.  

The ebbs and flows of golf are normal, predictable, and should be expected.  We literally should have almost zero emotional response to the good days or the bad.   

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1 hour ago, edteergolf said:

I am in now way picking on you or making any judgments, but your comments illuminate a couple of struggles so many players endure.  One, compartmentalization of all parts of the game and giving life to inanimate objects.  Saying I felt better about my long irons as apposed to, I hit/controlled my long irons well.  You did the work, not the club. Second, riding the daily emotions of the game which is exhausting!  This tells me that a player has the 'have it' or 'don't have it' syndrome.  We need to recognize the ongoing journey that endures the the good and bad times equally well while continually moving the need toward our goals.  This is thriving!  The same is seen in successful business and relationships.  A marriage isn't a bad marriage because of an argument any more than it is a great marriage due to a good day.  Our attention needs to be on today while our vision needs to see the big picture.  

The ebbs and flows of golf are normal, predictable, and should be expected.  We literally should have almost zero emotional response to the good days or the bad.   

I appreciate this. I definitely need to work on shrugging my emotions a bit more. I didn't golf for maybe 10 years after having golfed a lot for many years before that. I think it's hard for me when I get glimpses of my old swings but don't have the repetitions to have the consistency yet. I know I can hit the shots, but when I hit a few bad ones my mind starts running and I try to fix things that weren't the problem to begin with. That leads to worse swings. The mental game is real. I like the "have it"/"don't have it" comment. I'll be keeping this in mind. Thanks for the feedback!

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Driver: Ping G30 10.5 Stiff

Fairway wood: Titleist 917F2 16.5 Stiff 

Irons: Callaway Apex CF16 Steel Fiber i95 Stiff (5-PW)

Wedges: Vokey 52, 56

Putter: Odyssey White Hot #1

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The long game and the short game are different but critical aspects to golf. In the long game, power and distance are required so that the player's ball can approach the putting green in as few strokes as possible. In the short game, the skills needed are more finesse-related due to the need for accuracy.

RegardS

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So much good information just spewing from all of you.  My two cents is have blance and a plan for practice.  Golf has never been a one dimensional game.  Once you are out on the course, just play.  Working on stuff out on the course usually hurts your score.  Also along with the range time, I think cardio is really important.  We may not want to believe it  because there isn't running (or walking for that matter if you ride a cart) in this sport but how many sports take on average four to five hours to play?  Fatigue on the back nine will disturb your swing and more importantly your focus or concentration.  I'm glad this thread is here because its given me ideas on what to do or how to structure my practice time.  Thanks all

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On 5/29/2019 at 10:14 AM, DaveP043 said:

I would respectfully disagree with @TwoCoatsOfWax.  If you're trying to improve your swing, the range is critical.  When you're on the course, you're focused on the results of each shot.  When you're on the range, you can focus on your mechanical changes...

 

I’m in the opposite boat here... I think on course practice is the best. So long as on course practice is that... practice. Don’t keep a score when you are practicing... drop multiple balls from lies that you find  hard to recreate many of those things on the range  

 

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