JFish350 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I bought new clubs and had KBS Tour 130 shaft that I was fitted for but not using the clubs I going to purchase. After I got them the ball flight seemed very high and I felt I was losing a club length of distance. I went to another fitter and again not using the clubs I bought as we couldn't swap shafts and they don't carry my clubs They suggested Project X 6.5 LS 1250. Is this going to make a difference in ball flight being a little lower and getting the distance back? Or are they about the same shaft and I should make this work? I can make them work just fine but it sits in the back of my head when I deciding on club choice. This all said I am a 15 HDCP trending down and not sure it will make that big of difference. Thanks for any help/info? Jeremy MGoBlue100 1 Quote Sub 70 949 D 9* HZRUDS 60G 6.5 smoke RDX shaft. Sub 70 949X 4 wood ALDILA ABV 65-S shaft Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW Sub 70 3 utility 19* Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. OG White Hot #1 putter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 52 minutes ago, JFish350 said: I bought new clubs and had KBS Tour 130 shaft that I was fitted for but not using the clubs I going to purchase. After I got them the ball flight seemed very high and I felt I was losing a club length of distance. I went to another fitter and again not using the clubs I bought as we couldn't swap shafts and they don't carry my clubs They suggested Project X 6.5 LS 1250. Is this going to make a difference in ball flight being a little lower and getting the distance back? Or are they about the same shaft and I should make this work? I can make them work just fine but it sits in the back of my head when I deciding on club choice. This all said I am a 15 HDCP trending down and not sure it will make that big of difference. Thanks for any help/info? Jeremy After reading your post it seems like a lot of unknowns and based on my reading: you were fit to a set but bought something different than recommended. same shaft different head you feel the ball height is too high and you feel like you are losing distance. No numbers or measurements to confirm this. You went to another fitting but didn’t bring the clubs you were using to compare so you still have no measurement. first, going to different fitters will probably result in different configurations. Fitters have their preferences and get to goals differently. The shaft works based on how you respond to it so we really can’t tell you if it will make any difference. It could result on a lower flight or it could be the same or higher. what sits in the back of your head? You have a club that you were fit into and you should know how far you hit each club. MGoBlue100, tdroma98 and nofives 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFish350 Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, cnosil said: After reading your post it seems like a lot of unknowns and based on my reading: you were fit to a set but bought something different than recommended. same shaft different head you feel the ball height is too high and you feel like you are losing distance. No numbers or measurements to confirm this. You went to another fitting but didn’t bring the clubs you were using to compare so you still have no measurement. first, going to different fitters will probably result in different configurations. Fitters have their preferences and get to goals differently. The shaft works based on how you respond to it so we really can’t tell you if it will make any difference. It could result on a lower flight or it could be the same or higher. what sits in the back of your head? You have a club that you were fit into and you should know how far you hit each club. A few more details that may help. I went through the fitting process a few times. First time I was fit ( Golf Tech) for Mizzuno 921 Hot metal pro, I think it was 921. I apologize as I don't remember which shafts they fit me into. Second time I was fit (Private CC) for T200's which I loved and the shaft they suggested was the KBS Tour 130. Both sets where $1400 plus 3 thru AW. I kept looking as spending that much is a hard pill to swallow and really hard to hide from the wife which isn't an option. I can across Sub 70 on this site, checked them out, demo'd a few clubs and decided on them and went with the KBS shafts. I paid $850 for 3 hybrid and 4 iron -AW. I love the sub 70's and feel I made the right choice even with the ball fight being higher which is I believe the reason for the lost distance. When I got the clubs and the ball flight was high I went to another fitter closer to home with trackman. I did take my Sub70 clubs but they obviously don't carry them. Ironically He used Mizuno 921 hot metal pro's. He opinion was that the ball flight was the issue as the Mizuno was 10-12 yards longer with a lower ball flight. Both Mizuno and Sub70 were consistent in ball flight and dispersion. Mizuno 7 iron was avg 180 and Sub70 avg 165. Now when I demo'd the sub70 If i remember the shaft was a KBS 125 stiff shaft and the sub 70 6 iron avg was 189. Maybe my perception is different than what it should be, but my main concern is the height of the ball. Living in Oregon its common to loose a ball as it plugs into the soft ground. Not sure if any of this helps or is more confusing. MGoBlue100 and tdroma98 2 Quote Sub 70 949 D 9* HZRUDS 60G 6.5 smoke RDX shaft. Sub 70 949X 4 wood ALDILA ABV 65-S shaft Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW Sub 70 3 utility 19* Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. OG White Hot #1 putter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollingGreens Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 So basically you went with a shaft you were fitted for but swapped the iron heads? Which sub 70 iron did you go with? Quote Stealth 2 Plus 9deg Kai' li Red Stealth 2 13deg Aldilla Rogue Silver Stealth 2 15deg Aldilla Rogue Silver JPX 921 Hot Metal 4-PW Nippon Modus 120s SM8 54 and 58deg Dynamic Gold Wedge Flex Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Titleist ProV1 Hoofer Stand Bag Stewart Q Follow Electric Caddie 300 PRO Rangefinder Official Nippon Regio B+ Driver Shaft Review Official Stewart Q Follow Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 18 minutes ago, JFish350 said: A few more details that may help. Definitely helps. Based on marketing material the project X might be lower launching, but it is impossible to really compare marketing material. One companies low is another’s mid. the Mizuno’s are lower lofted by a couple of degrees and designed for distance. the 699 pros are probably a little closer to a players irons category. This probably makes the pros launch higher and spin a little more resulting in your distance variance. from a fitting perspective both clubs are probably good fits. Your discussion about wanting to launch lower due to course conditions may have prompted the shaft change. So based on your goals, the project X shafts might give you better results. Hard to tell if there would be any actual improvements without trying them since I am guessing you want to reshaft the Sub70 irons JFish350, tdroma98, MGoBlue100 and 1 other 4 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFish350 Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 12 minutes ago, RollingGreens said: So basically you went with a shaft you were fitted for but swapped the iron heads? Which sub 70 iron did you go with? Kinda sorta did that. I went through the Demo program Sub 70 has, but yes I went with a different shaft and head combo than I could try out. I went with 699 Pro's. I love them. MGoBlue100 1 Quote Sub 70 949 D 9* HZRUDS 60G 6.5 smoke RDX shaft. Sub 70 949X 4 wood ALDILA ABV 65-S shaft Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW Sub 70 3 utility 19* Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. OG White Hot #1 putter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFish350 Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 13 minutes ago, cnosil said: Definitely helps. Based on marketing material the project X might be lower launching, but it is impossible to really compare marketing material. One companies low is another’s mid. the Mizuno’s are lower lofted by a couple of degrees and designed for distance. the 699 pros are probably a little closer to a players irons category. This probably makes the pros launch higher and spin a little more resulting in your distance variance. from a fitting perspective both clubs are probably good fits. Your discussion about wanting to launch lower due to course conditions may have prompted the shaft change. So based on your goals, the project X shafts might give you better results. Hard to tell if there would be any actual improvements without trying them since I am guessing you want to reshaft the Sub70 irons Thank you for the info and help. I knew you would be the one to answer this question when I typed it out. I have always had a higher ball flight. When I started golf my learning was done in AZ where a higher ball is fine to hold the greens better. Now living in Oregon plugged golf balls are common and losing some of those is frustrating. I do want a different shaft that will give a lower launching ball flight. I just don't know if it will make that big of a difference. cnosil and MGoBlue100 2 Quote Sub 70 949 D 9* HZRUDS 60G 6.5 smoke RDX shaft. Sub 70 949X 4 wood ALDILA ABV 65-S shaft Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW Sub 70 3 utility 19* Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. OG White Hot #1 putter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFish350 Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 Update: In speaking/emailing with Cody at Sub70, I am going to go into there facility this spring and have them fit me using their products. Seems the best thing to do and the right way to get this fixed. Who knows maybe I'll end up with the same shaft. Thanks guys for the info. MGoBlue100, edingc, sirchunksalot and 1 other 4 Quote Sub 70 949 D 9* HZRUDS 60G 6.5 smoke RDX shaft. Sub 70 949X 4 wood ALDILA ABV 65-S shaft Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW Sub 70 3 utility 19* Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. OG White Hot #1 putter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Shearer Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I’ve been a club repair guy for over 50 years, the project x shaft will bring that ball flight down. I love the KBS shafts but they do have a higher flight. Good luck. MGoBlue100, tdroma98 and JFish350 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdennish Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Strange, I am an old fart and I just got the Sub 70 699's with the UST SR shaft. I love the feel of the clubs, but I hit them really high and I am losing 10+ yards per club. I had the PXG 0311 with an ACCRA shaft MGoBlue100 1 Quote Taylor Made Stealth 2 Driver with ACCURA Senior flex, 42.5 grams Ping G415 3 Wood Callaway Epic 5 Wood Ping G415 22* Hybrid Sub70 699 irons Aerotech Steel Fiber I70 graphite shafts an NO1 50 grips Sub70 286 Forged wedges 54* and 60* Scotty Cameron Phantom X putter with oversized Sweet Rollz grip True Pro Lux and True Links Knit shoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollingGreens Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 It’s never easy to put together combos on paper. Going through the fitting process showed me why it was important, looking at height, spin, and descent angles MGoBlue100 and JFish350 2 Quote Stealth 2 Plus 9deg Kai' li Red Stealth 2 13deg Aldilla Rogue Silver Stealth 2 15deg Aldilla Rogue Silver JPX 921 Hot Metal 4-PW Nippon Modus 120s SM8 54 and 58deg Dynamic Gold Wedge Flex Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Titleist ProV1 Hoofer Stand Bag Stewart Q Follow Electric Caddie 300 PRO Rangefinder Official Nippon Regio B+ Driver Shaft Review Official Stewart Q Follow Review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDTVMAN Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I'm a certified fitter and I tell customers the following...you cannot compare one brand of shaft to another by their specs. Flex differences and kick points are for that specific brand only to distinguish between their own models. You have to physically hit each shaft you are interested in, look at the launch monitor numbers (especially if your indoors), and make a decision based on your feel and the numbers. If you can be fitted outside, ex: a country club or demo day, all the better, as you can physically see your complete shot. Feel is so important, just like the look of an iron when you're deciding on what to buy. If you're not convertible with the head, shaft, and/or grip, don't buy it. Keep looking until you get the right combination. KC Golf, MGoBlue100, tdroma98 and 2 others 5 Quote Certified Club Fitter. Ping G425 Max Driver 10.5° w/Fujikura Ventus TR Ping G425 Max 5-7-9 Fairway Woods w/Ping Alta CB Ping G425 Irons 5-U w/Ping Alta CB (Power-Spec Lofts) Ping 4.0 Eye2 Glide Wedges 54°-58° w/Recoil SmacWrap Ping Redwood ZB Putter w/PP58 PING Pioneer Cart Bag Lamkin Sonar+ Wrap Mid-Size Grips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franc38 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Hollow body construction like the sub70 699 pro, tends to lower the CG of the club and therefore pushes the launch angle up. Add that to lofts that are strong (compared to old time standards) but not as "jacked up" than most comparable sets and you have a recipe for a higher ball flight than with most comparable irons. Now, lets be honest... there are not that many people who really need to bring the ball flight down (typically very high club head speed players who are in windy places with hard greens). If you need to keep the ball "low" on links-y courses, and hit it very fast, blades and small cavities may help... And ultimately you'll end up with a PX 6.0/6.5 (not LZ) or a DG X100 as these are the "kings of lower balls". If you really want KBS, that will be a C-taper. Rest of the market (and that's a big big part) would probably benefit from a higher ball, hence the popularity of the hollow heads. I mean, distance is fine and all, but with irons you don't want to be long, just consistent at the same yardage with the same club AND hold greens! Edited December 6, 2021 by Franc38 JFish350, Stugotz, RollingGreens and 1 other 4 Quote Aim small... pray to miss small My bag: Ping hoofer lite. My driver: Nike Vapor Pro. 4w: Inesis 500. Hybrid: Nike Vapor Flex. Irons (4-PW): Takomo 301 combo on KBS tour X. Wedges: Vokey SM7 52° and 58°. Putter: Cleveland Classic HB1. Balls: Inesis Tour900 yellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckZ Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 When I go to my trusted fitter I usually stay with what he recommends. It normally works out. You are usually making a decision based on a seven iron and it does take a little while to break in a new set or irons. I expect this and give the clubs a chance. It is a team effort with myself and my fitter who has over 25 years experience with Titleist and I trust his experience and judgement. I do not spin the ball and prefer height with my balls off my irons. One thing we have worked with in my driver is height has brought me lower spin and greater distance and accuracy. Am 75 and KBS and Project X shafts did not work for me at the fitting. I went with the AMT Red shafts and can hit my 7 irons which everything seems to be based on, over 150. Playing from the age appropriate tees, it works well for me. Go with what your fitter recommends. Seems wasteful not to use his advice, if he is certified and all that knowledge. Just sayin'. With respect. I too am up to a 15 hdcp. New greens and they are killing me. Ten strokes harder. Quote Driver - TSi3 10.75* - Fujikura Speeder 661 TR Fairway - TSi2 14.25* - Fujikura Motore Speeder VC 6.1 Fairway - TSR1 17.0* - Fujikura Vista Pro 65S Hybrid - TSR1 19.0* - Fujikura Atmos Red Tour 75 Hybrid - TSR1 23.0* - Fujikura Atmos Red Tour 75 Irons - T350 (2023) - 5-48W - True Temper AMT Red 95g-107g Wedges - Vokey SM9 - 52.08F, 56.10S - True Temper AMT Red 94 ** GolfPride MCC +4 Midsize Grips (all woods/irons/wedges) Putter - 2023 Scotty Cameron Super Select Squareback 2 35" ** Superstroke 1.0 Pistol Grip Golf Ball - TITLEIST - Prov1 (2023) Golf Bags - TITLEIST - Cart 14 (black), Mid Size Tour (black/white) Golf Glove - FootJoy (StaSof), Shoes, Apparel and Outerwear Rangefinder - Bushnell Pro XE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBunc Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 JPX 921 with Project X LZ for me,,,love em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebhorton Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Jeremy, You got a lot of advice here. I echo Chuck's advice to trust fitter and also work with what you have for some time to determine how to best use the clubs. I bought KBS C Taper 110 shafts to go with P790s. Very happy with them, but also still working on my swing -- which is the bigger variable in scoring than the shaft. MGoBlue100 1 Quote Ping g410 LST Titleist 917f2 5 wood Titleist H1 21d hybrid Titleist u100 4 iron Ping i500 5 - PW Vokey SM8 52, 56, 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IONEPUTT Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 You really NEED to check to loft of each of the 7 irons you are hitting. Some of today's irons have a lot less loft than they did a few years ago. My forged irons have 5 degrees MORE loft than a lot of what is being sold today. That means a lower ball flight and more distance with the new irons compared to my 15 year old clubs. Check the loft of those heads and then see if the numbers make more sense to you. The flex can make a big difference as well. For my swing, I hit a S flex shaft about 2-1/2 degrees higher launch angle than I do a R flex shaft iron. Could be the same for you or it might NOT, you need to demo both to see what works for YOU. Quote All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shapotomous Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 If you love the way the Sub70's feel then have them bent stronger a couple degrees to get the yardage you want. JFish350 and MGoBlue100 2 Quote Modern Bag: G410 LST 10.5*, Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 Flex; 915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex; Snake Eyes 18* 2h, 23* 4h & 27* 5h; JPX 900 Forged 6 - PW, PX LZ 6.0; Edison 2.0 49*, 53*, 57* KBS Tour 120 S; Heppler Fetch; Ball - MTB-X; Bag - Jones MyGolfSpy Edition! Shot Scope H4, MG600 Rangefinder Classic Bag: Driver - Persimmon; 3w - Speed Slot; 5w - Tour Block; 3 - pw - Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson; putter - bullseye standard or flange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srvpoo Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 If you are a 15 handicap you are worrying about way to much tech crap. Work on your swing weaknesses and when you get to a single digit then worry about that stuff !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFish350 Posted December 7, 2021 Author Share Posted December 7, 2021 14 hours ago, srvpoo said: If you are a 15 handicap you are worrying about way to much tech crap. Work on your swing weaknesses and when you get to a single digit then worry about that stuff !! I agree with worrying to much about about tech stuff. Most of my extra strokes come from poor chipping and mediocre putting, This is my winter project. MGoBlue100 1 Quote Sub 70 949 D 9* HZRUDS 60G 6.5 smoke RDX shaft. Sub 70 949X 4 wood ALDILA ABV 65-S shaft Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW Sub 70 3 utility 19* Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. OG White Hot #1 putter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick D Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 The Mizunos appear to be 1 degree stronger 8-PW and 2 degrees stronger in the 4-7 irons. Different lofts, head designs and materials plus different shafts and shaft weights could be much of the difference. Choose the ball flight and distances that are best for your game and the courses you play. Quote Driver-Ping G400 Max 3W-Taylormade Hybrid - Adams Super LS 21 degree Irons-Maltby PTM, KBS Tour stiff Wedges-Maltby M-Series+ Putter-Maltby C.E.R. C-Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
precision marker Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 I went to a fitter and started with my driver. We quickly found out I make excellent contact but only have a swing speed of 60mph. (72 years old with a couple back surgeries and another needed). The fitter suggested I try Lady's shafts. We re-did the Callaway Fusion driver. I loved the additional 10-15 yards. Ordered a set of Callaway Mavericks in lady's with the shaft extended 2" and thicker grips. I am in heaven; love them. Before you call me a sissie; Tom Watson gave Freddie Couples a 4 wood. He used it all season and loved it. At the end of the season, he accidentally broke the shaft. When he went to get it replaced, they told him it was a lady's shaft. Just info for thought for all you old guys out there. Quote SDVOSB precision Marker, Richard Sweet, Founder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rtracymog Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 First of all, whatever club you're hitting, put the same shaft into the same head to give you an idea of what changing shafts would do. Mizuno has almost every option in their fitting matrix with most flexes. That's the best apples to apples comparison you can make. The spin and launch rates may be different that what you're playing because the club head is different, but it's your best option. What you might want to look at, also, is the ball. There are some great TXG videos on youtube that give you a really good idea how much a golf ball change (which is going to cost you significantly less than re-shafting an entire set) your launch and spin characteristics. Quote Cortex w/MGS Motore X F1 7X tipped 1" F5 17 degree hybrid w/Rogue Black 85X C300 Forged 3-5 w/C-Taper 130X FG Tour V6 5-6 w/C-Taper 130X Staff Model Blade 7-PW w/C-Taper 130X RTX4 52, 56, 60 w/S400 Tour Issue ER7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Kansas Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Got fitted at Golftec and basically had to demand they bring out the Titleist and Taylormades. All they wanted me to hit were Mizunos or Calloway’s. Fitting numbers ended up being the best with the P770’s project X 6.0 tipped 1 inch. Absolutely the best irons for my game now. Spend sometime and educate yourself before the fitting and don’t be afraid to ask and try something not on the fitters radar. MGoBlue100 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenttharp Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 If you hit it harder, it will go farther. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark smith Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 When you originally went to GolfTec for your fitting, and looked at the Mizuno 921 Pro, did they have you use the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer? This gives the fitter suggestions for shafts, that would be recommended for you (brand, weight, flex, etc)? Had you taken time off from golfing, prior to your fitting? I was fitted for Mizuno clubs a few years back, and did a lot of trial and error with shafts. My decision KBS Tour 90R, was not in the top five recommendations from the Swing Optimizer, but I spent a lot of time in a bay prior to my fitting, trying shafts and looking at the data. Good luck in finding the right club/shafts for golf. Remember it takes time to get used to new clubs. I usually expect 1/2 a season to really get used to the changes (I golf 50-60 rounds a year, with lots of range ball time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PankaGolf Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 Personal anecdote… I hit the KBS consistently 10-15ft higher than Planet X and spin about 7000 on a iron vs 6000 in the PX. both of these mean the ball travels about 10 yards less on the same head. another personal anecdote is I get the same apex and spin rate using a P770 in a KBS tour 130X as I do using a P7MB in PX6.5. Quote "C'mon be good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lmerrick Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 I made a change from KBS Tour 130X to PX 6.0 soft stepped 1. I wanted a bit lighter shaft and got the spin and launch numbers I wanted. Trajectory control is best I’ve ever had since charging. Quote Larry A. Merrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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